| 05:47 | <wirepair> | anyone know how close the parsing in http://about.validator.nu/htmlparser/ resemebles gecko's parser? |
| 06:35 | <MikeSmith> | wirepair: it should be exactly close |
| 06:35 | <MikeSmith> | any differences would not be intentional |
| 06:36 | <MikeSmith> | hmm, modulo how up to date the code behind http://about.validator.nu/htmlparser/ |
| 06:37 | <MikeSmith> | I think the source has some resst changes that have not be pushed to there yet |
| 06:38 | <MikeSmith> | oops but that's the sure for the "about" page |
| 06:41 | <MikeSmith> | I'd though you meant http://html5.validator.nu/parsetree |
| 06:42 | <MikeSmith> | so now I think I don't understand your question.. |
| 06:46 | <MikeSmith> | wirepair: the gecko C++ parser is not yet portable outside of gecko, if that's what you're thinking about |
| 06:50 | <wirepair> | MikeSmith: awesome thanks! i need to hijack the various parser transitions to do some testing |
| 06:51 | <wirepair> | i just want to make sure it's as close as possible to how firefox parses |
| 06:54 | <MikeSmith> | wirepair: yeah it is |
| 06:54 | <wirepair> | good deal, thanks for confirming |
| 06:55 | <MikeSmith> | np. hsivonen should be on soonish if you have specific questions |
| 06:55 | <wirepair> | cool, first order of business is trying to get the raw html source from a firefox extension without it being tainted by the parser fixing up various things |
| 14:11 | <annevk> | So I tried updating the topic to use — rather than -- but apparently you need to be op for that :/ |
| 14:15 | <jgraham> | Changing the topic here? Heresy. |
| 14:16 | <annevk> | It's 2014, everyone better have utf-8 by now |
| 14:16 | <jgraham> | Well IRC isn't encoding-aware |
| 14:52 | <gsnedders> | If #linguistics can cope by just telling everyone to use UTF-8, then I expect #whatwg can. :P |
| 14:53 | <darobin> | people coming here with their clients set to anything other than UTF8 deserve not to read anything |
| 15:12 | <annevk> | Any opinions on Kindles here? |
| 15:12 | <annevk> | The normal one looks better than the Paperwhite edition, but maybe I'm missing something? |
| 15:12 | <Ms2ger> | I like dead trees |
| 15:13 | <darobin> | annevk: what kind of opinion? |
| 15:13 | <darobin> | Ms2ger: I guess that Kindles are largely derived from dead algae |
| 15:13 | <Ms2ger> | And dead dinosaurs? |
| 15:14 | <annevk> | darobin: any really, I'm considering getting one so I don't have to carry lots of dead trees around |
| 15:14 | <jory> | A Kindle is much nicer to carry around than any particular doorstopper. |
| 15:14 | <jory> | They're alright for technical books as well. Not great, but not terrible. |
| 15:15 | <darobin> | annevk: well, I've had a K2 and a K3, and I've been happy with both |
| 15:15 | <darobin> | I haven't tried the paperwhite |
| 15:15 | <darobin> | I routinely archive a de-DRMed stash of the books, just in case |
| 15:16 | <darobin> | the thing I like least is that when you upgrade an ebook you lose your annotations — but currently all ebook systems seem to suffer from that issue |
| 15:16 | <darobin> | if you're the kind to write on books be sure to get a version on which you find the keyboard easy to use, i.e. not the entry-level one where you have to move from key to key using the arrows |
| 15:17 | <jgraham> | annevk: I quite like them. Not as nice as a real book, but a good reading experience. Depends what your use case is really. I have only used it for reading fiction and have never bothered with the annotaion service / etc. |
| 15:17 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: because JSON sucks for being written by humans: https://github.com/mojombo/toml |
| 15:17 | <darobin> | annevk: I have a script that parses the file in which the Kindle stores annotations, bookmarks, etc. If you're interested I can clean it up and release it. |
| 15:18 | <jgraham> | Also, being able to select a word and get a definition is useful |
| 15:18 | <darobin> | yeah |
| 15:18 | <darobin> | they're often not very good for programming books as the examples tend to wrap suckingly |
| 15:19 | <jory> | Yeah, you basically have to read technical books in landscape with a small font. |
| 15:19 | <darobin> | also, I now get all maths-heavy books in paper format |
| 15:19 | <darobin> | otherwise you get equations as gifs — it's maddening |
| 15:20 | <jgraham> | Blame Google? |
| 15:21 | <jgraham> | (I assume it uses WebKit, which doesn't have MathML support) |
| 15:21 | <jgraham> | (but the idea of using it for technical books is mildly horrifying) |
| 15:22 | <jgraham> | As a format it only really works for things that are very layout-agnostic |
| 15:23 | <darobin> | yes |
| 15:23 | <Ms2ger> | Get a TeX'd PDF? |
| 15:23 | <darobin> | though it depends on what kind of tech book, those that are discussion based are fine |
| 15:24 | <annevk> | I was thinking of using it for reading |
| 15:24 | Ms2ger | gasps |
| 15:24 | <annevk> | Mostly fiction |
| 15:24 | <jory> | I actually read all of raganwald's stuff on my Paperwhite; but his largest code sample is still less than a dozen lines or so. |
| 15:24 | <darobin> | annevk: for fictions it's an obvious choice |
| 15:25 | <annevk> | darobin: is http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B007HCCOD0/ the one you have? |
| 15:25 | <annevk> | I'm not too worried about the annotation stuff |
| 15:25 | <darobin> | annevk: no, I have an earlier one |
| 15:25 | <darobin> | it's still running |
| 15:26 | <jgraham> | We have a pre-paperwhite touch version. I could bring it in tomorrow if you want to have a look |
| 15:27 | <darobin> | annevk: I think they've rebranded it, it's this one http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kindle-Wireless-Reader-Wifi-Graphite/dp/B002Y27P46/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1389021994&sr=8-6&keywords=kindle+keyboard |
| 15:27 | <darobin> | but if you don't care about annotations, get a paperwhite I'd reckon |
| 15:29 | <annevk> | I don't care, but it seems the one I pointed to is even simpler? |
| 15:29 | <annevk> | Or is the backlight really great? |
| 15:29 | <jory> | It is really great. |
| 15:30 | <jory> | You can read equally well in the dark through to full sunlight. |
| 15:30 | <jgraham> | Seems useful if you ever want to read on a plane with the lights dimmed, for example |
| 15:30 | <darobin> | yeah the backlight is good |
| 15:32 | <jory> | I've had multiple Kindles, as I'm quite good at breaking them, and aside from the lack of physical buttons page turning buttons, the Paperwhite is ideal. |
| 15:50 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: non-paperwhite one sucks for reading outside in sunlight |
| 15:50 | <MikeSmith> | or really any non-e-ink reader does |
| 15:54 | <gsnedders> | Yeah, you want e-ink for a eReader. Definitely. |
| 16:02 | <SimonSapin> | I’ve started reading on a LCD tablet and a phone, I wonder if e-ink is worth Yet Another Device |
| 16:02 | <jory> | Is your reading synced between those two devices? |
| 16:02 | <SimonSapin> | (I mean reading fiction books) |
| 16:04 | <SimonSapin> | no sync, but I read one fiction book at a time and with the TOC it’s not too hard to find where I was |
| 16:05 | <gsnedders> | SimonSapin: IMO it is worth it |
| 16:06 | <jgraham> | Not sure I would want to read fiction on non-e-ink |
| 16:06 | <jgraham> | Or any long text |
| 16:06 | <jgraham> | It's bad enough using such a display all day |
| 16:08 | <annevk> | I didn't get the impression from the site that Paperwhite is e-ink, but this all sounds good. Thanks guys! |
| 16:08 | <annevk> | I suppose I'll get that one. |
| 16:11 | <gsnedders> | annevk: I don't think it is? I dunno. |
| 16:12 | <jgraham> | I thought it was? |
| 16:13 | <jory> | It is e-ink, but also backlit. |
| 16:13 | <gsnedders> | Yeah, it is |
| 16:13 | <jgraham> | It has a "E Ink perl active matric display" it seems |
| 16:13 | <jory> | If you turn off the backlighting, it looks like a normal eink display. |
| 16:13 | <jgraham> | Oh, wait "pearl" |
| 16:13 | gsnedders | decided against getting a Kindle for the sake of being able to actually use standard ePubs and not only Amazon's proprietary format… |
| 16:13 | <jgraham> | (also matrix, but that was a less Freudian typo) |
| 16:13 | <jory> | E-Ink /$@#!##$%*^!/ |
| 16:17 | <darobin> | annevk, gsnedders: getting some really good love from w3cmemes :) |
| 16:17 | <gsnedders> | darobin: I can't quite work out who is meant to be who. :) |
| 16:18 | <darobin> | I was thinking you were on the left |
| 16:18 | <darobin> | not sure who filed this meme though, they may have had a clearer notion |
| 16:18 | <Domenic_> | Nook is pretty good alternative that does ePub |
| 16:18 | <gsnedders> | darobin: I dunno. :) |
| 16:19 | <darobin> | gsnedders: I have to say I love the jacket |
| 16:19 | <annevk> | I wish I was that cool |
| 16:19 | <darobin> | awww |
| 16:20 | <darobin> | all this ebook talk makes me wonder: did that idea of making Zip first-class citizen ever get anywhere? |
| 16:21 | <annevk> | It got to the point where I no longer wanted to pursue it |
| 16:23 | <annevk> | I think wycats_ still thinks it has merit and when we discussed it within the TAG we came up with some new kind of format that would handle streaming better and was more compatible with custom file extensions and custom HTTP headers... |
| 16:24 | <darobin> | annevk: you have a pointer for that? |
| 16:25 | <annevk> | I think https://gist.github.com/wycats/220039304b053b3eedd0 might be our write up |
| 16:28 | <annevk> | I rely so much on my browser history it's kind of fucked up |
| 16:28 | <darobin> | annevk: great, thanks |
| 16:28 | <darobin> | I know how that feels |
| 16:29 | <darobin> | a long time ago I used to have a small HTTP proxy in Perl that did full text indexing over my browsing; I should probably reimplement that |
| 16:29 | <annevk> | http://www.flickr.com/photos/gsnedders/2964101064/ is the classic Mandelieu 2008 photo btw |
| 16:29 | <MikeSmith> | ah yeah that one was great |
| 16:30 | <gsnedders> | > That moment when timbl asks for a photo with you |
| 16:31 | <Ms2ger> | [citation needed] |
| 16:32 | annevk | can attest |
| 17:30 | <annevk> | So even Gravity was not shot in "4k" |
| 17:32 | <smola> | annevk: hi there |
| 17:32 | <annevk> | hey |
| 17:32 | <smola> | if WHAGWG URL is supposed to obsolete the RFCs, shouldn't it include a formal specification of a valid URL? Such as importing the RFC 3986 ABNF spec? |
| 17:33 | <annevk> | smola: there's a formal definition |
| 17:34 | <annevk> | smola: formal doesn't require ABNF |
| 17:35 | <smola> | annevk: yeah, sure, I meant any unambiguous formal definition |
| 17:35 | <smola> | not necessarily ABNF |
| 17:36 | <annevk> | http://url.spec.whatwg.org/#writing |
| 17:43 | <MikeSmith> | smola: the spec prose of that section is intended to be unambiguous. you don't necessarily need any kind of formalism to achieve unambiguity.. |
| 17:43 | <Ms2ger> | MikeSmith, do you need a formalism for a formal definition, though? |
| 17:44 | <MikeSmith> | Ms2ger: not as far as I can see |
| 17:45 | <MikeSmith> | (and now I see that I just repeated what annevk already said anyway) |
| 17:46 | <MikeSmith> | Ms2ger: it's a formal definition that takes the form of prose |
| 17:46 | <smola> | MikeSmith: yes, I see. Somehow I didn't realise the intent of that section was to provide *the* formal definition ;) |
| 17:46 | <MikeSmith> | and it's formal in that it states requirements unambiguously |
| 17:46 | <smola> | it's harder to grasp for me than a ABNF or any kind of grammar, but that's a matter of personal preference I guess ;) |
| 17:46 | <MikeSmith> | smola: yeah, actually I didn't either when I first read it |
| 17:46 | <annevk> | smola: it might need a bit more examples and introductory text |
| 17:47 | <MikeSmith> | bingo |
| 17:47 | <annevk> | smola: I'm waiting for it to get some traction |
| 17:47 | <jgraham> | Well, you could say that it's not formal in that it relies on ambiguous language rather than a symbolism with a defined set of rules |
| 17:47 | <annevk> | Implemented by one browser as is would be good |
| 17:47 | <jgraham> | (that's not to say that a formalism is better) |
| 17:47 | <MikeSmith> | smola: annevk is allergic to writing introductions and other forms of non-normative text |
| 17:48 | <Ms2ger> | Not as allergic as I am, fortunately :) |
| 17:48 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 17:57 | <smola> | annevk: sounds good, thank you |
| 18:50 | <SimonSapin> | Is the :scope pseudo-class still a thing? It’s in the abandoned selectors-api2 but not in DOM, that replaces it |
| 18:51 | <Ms2ger> | I found another photo of MikeSmith with that monk: http://i.imgur.com/B36Srq3.jpg |
| 20:28 | <TabAtkins> | annevk-cloud: Regarding e-readers, I'm still very happy with my simple Nook. It reads PDFs and epubs, which is all I need. And the B&N drm is easy to strip off. |
| 22:12 | <Hixie_> | heycam|away: your input on bugs in this list would be most helpful: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?list_id=30749&query_format=advanced&status_whiteboard=heycam&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr |
| 22:14 | <Ms2ger> | heycam|away, so would your input on your own damn bugs! :) |
| 22:24 | <Hixie_> | anyone want to figure out when <embed> fires 'load' events, exactly? :-) https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23951 |
| 22:25 | <Ms2ger> | Would a "no" surprise you a lot? :) |
| 22:26 | <Hixie_> | not in the slightest :-( |
| 22:27 | <TabAtkins> | Ooh, apparently our UseCounter on the SVG <use> instance tree reports absolutely no usage on the web. |
| 22:27 | <pdr> | ++ |
| 22:28 | <pdr> | Just search around, it's clear the instance tree is not used |
| 22:29 | <Hixie_> | wow, zero? |
| 22:29 | <Hixie_> | not even tests or something? |
| 22:29 | <Hixie_> | that's awesome |
| 22:31 | <heycam> | TabAtkins, that's good news. but not unexpected, given it's not implemented everywhere. |
| 22:31 | <heycam> | TabAtkins, did you or Dirk end up putting use counters in for everything SVG? or just certain things? |
| 22:31 | <pdr> | heycam, I did it just for instanceRoot in crbug.com/313438 |
| 22:32 | <heycam> | Hixie_, will look |
| 22:32 | <TabAtkins> | No, but pdr put in some targetted ones. |
| 22:32 | <heycam> | pdr, ah ok |
| 22:52 | <Hixie_> | crap |
| 22:52 | <Hixie_> | in trying to determine what the spec should do for that embed bug, i found two more bugs |
| 22:53 | <Ms2ger> | Been there :) |
| 22:54 | Hixie_ | files them and moves on |
| 22:56 | <Hixie_> | interesting that 'load' events fire on <embed>, then the outer doc, then the inner doc |
| 22:56 | <Hixie_> | oh wait |
| 22:57 | <Hixie_> | nevermind that last part |
| 22:57 | <Hixie_> | not sure what order the inner doc and outer doc fire |
