| 00:23 | <JonathanNeal> | gsnedders: I find all sgml documents to be rather frustrating. |
| 00:24 | <JonathanNeal> | I would dig a future of native slim-lang parsing http://slim-lang.com/ |
| 02:55 | SamB | finds the typical DSSSL stylesheet to be refreshingly straightforward |
| 02:55 | <SamB> | (note: they usually don't have any actual tags in them) |
| 16:46 | <JonathanNeal> | I’m writing a short article to describe the differences between the Content-Language header and the lang attribute. Is it accurate so far? https://gist.github.com/jonathantneal/9309367 |
| 18:42 | <SimonSapin> | JonathanNeal: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/elements.html#language is based on lang attributes, but when that’s missing it uses Content-Language as the final fallback |
| 18:53 | <SimonSapin> | I don’t know if the difference means anything in practice |
| 18:53 | <SimonSapin> | such as, any tool interpreting them differently |
| 18:57 | <Ms2ger> | :lang? |
| 19:06 | <SimonSapin> | :lang() treats them the same, other than priority |
| 19:09 | <JonathanNeal> | SimonSapin, do you know if the lang attribute supports multiple languages? |
| 19:10 | <SimonSapin> | It doesn’t |
| 19:10 | <SimonSapin> | but when falling back to Content-Language, "the language of an element" doesn’t either |
| 19:11 | <SimonSapin> | see link above |
| 19:12 | <JonathanNeal> | I believe Content-Language supports multiple attributes http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec14.html#sec14.12 |
| 19:12 | <SimonSapin> | yes |
| 19:13 | <SimonSapin> | but not when it’s used as the fallback for the language of an element, per the HTML spec |
| 19:13 | <SimonSapin> | maybe search engines use Content-Language |
| 19:15 | <SimonSapin> | my point is that "Don’t do this because it’s Wrong" isn’t very helpful if it doesn’t make any difference in practice. |
| 19:17 | <JonathanNeal> | Oh, do you think I suggesting something like that in my post? |
| 19:18 | <SimonSapin> | not really |
| 19:19 | <SimonSapin> | but "This also means a document intending to teach French to English readers would use Content-Language: en", what happens if I use Content-Language: fr in this case? |
| 19:20 | <Ms2ger> | More angels would dance on the head of a pin |
| 19:22 | <JonathanNeal> | SimonSapin, in that case, a translation service might recommend translating the french portions into English, despite the intent to keep them? |
| 19:23 | <SimonSapin> | JonathanNeal: than that’s what the article should say |
| 19:24 | <SimonSapin> | all the better if you have example of existing translation services that do behave that way |
| 19:26 | <JonathanNeal> | Great. |
| 19:29 | <zewt> | if there are no web-compat reasons to do otherwise (which there may be), content-language and <html @lang> should be the same thing |
| 19:29 | <zewt> | it's hard enough to get people to tag languages in the first place, without having multiple different ways with different nuances, and some in HTML headers and others inline |
| 19:41 | <SimonSapin> | +1 |
| 19:42 | <SimonSapin> | though for HTML’s purposes they’re already the same, and CSS only uses them through HTML’s definition |
| 19:52 | <JonathanNeal> | zewt, SimonSapin, thanks for the input. I’ve made some changed based on our conversation. Do you think this reads more accurately? https://gist.github.com/jonathantneal/9309367 |
| 19:53 | <SimonSapin> | JonathanNeal: don’t link to HTML 4 |
| 19:57 | <SimonSapin> | JonathanNeal: "Google determines ...", is that Search or Translate? The blog post you link to seems to be about Search |
| 20:06 | <JonathanNeal> | SimonSapin: Thanks, I will do some research and clarify that. |
| 21:01 | <MikeSmith> | JonathanNeal: SimonSapin is right that you shouldn't reference HTML4 |
| 21:02 | <MikeSmith> | that spec should not be trusted as anything reflecting reality |
| 21:02 | <MikeSmith> | I guess you should just use http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-p2-semantics-26#section-3.1.3.2 instead |
| 21:03 | <MikeSmith> | there's supposed to be an updated RFC of the HTTP spec published soon |
| 21:03 | <MikeSmith> | I think -26 is the final editor's draft |
| 21:04 | <MikeSmith> | JonathanNeal: or instead maybe best to just use https://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-html-language-declarations |
| 21:04 | <JonathanNeal> | MikeSmith: Thanks. I'm using that document currently to reference more of what I'm writing. |
| 21:05 | <MikeSmith> | https://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-html-language-declarations#metadata |
| 21:05 | <MikeSmith> | JonathanNeal: ok |
| 21:06 | <MikeSmith> | btw the stuff under https://www.w3.org/International/ is generally trustworthy |
| 21:07 | <MikeSmith> | since Richard Ishida knows whereof he speaks, and he keeps that content up to date |
| 21:09 | <JonathanNeal> | Basically - English is the default language of the web. The lang attribute describes the language of actual content. It falls back on content-header. Content-header describes the language of the intended audience. It can describe multiple languages, but in practice, keep pages monolingual. |
| 21:09 | <MikeSmith> | https://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-http-and-lang seems good too |
| 21:09 | <JonathanNeal> | content-language header |
| 21:25 | SamB | wonders again what license applies to the stuff on http://resources.whatwg.org/ ... |
| 21:28 | <Ms2ger> | That's a good question |
| 21:30 | <Ms2ger> | I don't think anyone took the time to slap a license on it |
| 21:31 | <Ms2ger> | Probably look up who contributed to https://github.com/whatwg/resources.whatwg.org and send them email cc www-archive to see if they agree to relicensing |
| 21:36 | SamB | was just going to report a bug against HTML even though it's not really HTML-related ... but I guess that would also work |
| 21:38 | <SamB> | my first inclination was to file in issue against the github repository, but it has issues disabled :-( |
| 21:39 | SamB | wonders if these logos are trademarks |
| 21:40 | <Ms2ger> | The XHR one may be somewhat problematic |
| 21:45 | <ZiNC> | Hey. |
| 21:48 | <ZiNC> | Is there a WebMUX implementation anywhere? |
| 22:06 | <MikeSmith> | never heard of it |
| 22:07 | <ZiNC> | Last draft seems to be from 1999. |
| 22:07 | <ZiNC> | Also called w3mux sometimes, or SMUX originally. |
| 22:14 | <SamB> | is that related to SPDY at all? |
| 22:15 | <ZiNC> | Some multiplexing ideas might be similar, but I think that's about it. |
| 22:16 | <ZiNC> | I think the implementation is part of the ILU. Also from 99. |
| 22:20 | <ZiNC> | Hmm, that doesn't look like a generally usable implementation. Tied to the ILU, whatever that does. |
| 22:24 | <ZiNC> | Is anyone aware of any simple, implemented, multiplexing protocols? |
| 22:30 | <JonathanNeal> | are any of you opinionated between public domain and MIT? |
| 22:34 | <ZiNC> | Jonathan: Copyright notice shown? |
| 22:36 | <JonathanNeal> | In general, in picking a license. I have committed projects to the public domain, and I haven’t had any problems. On the other hand, I’ve had some issues with MIT licensed stuff because of opinions on how attribution should be made. |
| 22:37 | <ZiNC> | I can't say I've dwelt much on licenses. |
| 22:38 | <ZiNC> | How's attribution different to any other license with a similar clause? |
| 22:56 | <zewt> | JonathanNeal: not personally; some people say they prefer MIT for the warranty disclaimer, but I don't know how that's better than just putting a warranty disclaimer in by itself |
| 22:58 | <ZiNC> | What warranty is there to public domain? |
| 22:59 | <JonathanNeal> | Public domain is my way of not dealing with any of that, and ensuring that other’s don’t complicate it either. |
| 22:59 | <gsnedders> | ZiNC: Depends on what country you're in |
| 23:00 | <ZiNC> | Source or target? :) Just seems odd there'd be any warranty to random code you release for free. |
| 23:00 | <gsnedders> | ZiNC: Most of the implied warranties in most juristictions apply only to sales. |
| 23:01 | <ZiNC> | That's what I'd expect. |
| 23:01 | <JonathanNeal> | I had an issue with MIT attribution. Someone worried folks might be technically breaking the license every time they forked the project. And then there’s another infamous story I’d rather not get into where people were acting rather threatening toward me when I changed the language of a forked project. |
| 23:02 | <gsnedders> | JonathanNeal: I'll also point out wrt public domain that not all juristictions allow one to put something into the public domain. |
| 23:03 | <JonathanNeal> | gsnedders: I did not know that! Anything in particular I should know about that? I apply a lot of JS to public domain. |
| 23:03 | <ZiNC> | How can that be? |
| 23:04 | <gsnedders> | In quite a few juristictions "public domain" only exists as a state that works pass into after author's life + 70 (or more) years. |
| 23:05 | <gsnedders> | And there's no concept of disowning copyright of a work |
| 23:05 | <ZiNC> | You can always release anonymously. :) |
| 23:06 | <gsnedders> | But you still own copyright. |
| 23:07 | <gsnedders> | Ability to release anonymously or pseudononymously is one of the irrevoccable moral rights granting to the author by the Berne Convention. |
| 23:07 | <gsnedders> | JonathanNeal: If you're concerned about it, see CC0. |
| 23:08 | <gsnedders> | (IANAL, etc.) |
| 23:12 | <JonathanNeal> | SimonSapin, MikeSmith, thanks again. I’ve updated https://gist.github.com/jonathantneal/9309367 to reflect some of the information and links you gave me. |
| 23:13 | <SamB> | yeah, CC0 is a public domain dedication with failover to a simple permissive license, which is about the best that can be done |
| 23:14 | <SamB> | modulo the details of constructing the license so that it will be considered legal everywhere but still provide as much freedom as possible |
| 23:25 | <SamB> | anyway, I just reported <https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24893>; ... |