| 00:06 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: 👆 |
| 00:06 | <MikeSmith> | ccat: I reckon Ms2ger is sleeping by now |
| 00:07 | <MikeSmith> | or nearly |
| 00:08 | <ccat> | MikeSmith: ok, ty -- want to take over? :) |
| 00:12 | <MikeSmith> | nope |
| 00:13 | <MikeSmith> | you were just talking to the one guy who could explain it to you better than anybody |
| 00:13 | <ccat> | MikeSmith: : ( |
| 00:14 | <MikeSmith> | anyway it's the weekend |
| 00:14 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie might roll around at some point but my guess is he's busy doing something else fun |
| 00:15 | <MikeSmith> | so you might have better luck trying again during the hours of overlap between CET/UK time and US/West |
| 00:15 | <ccat> | MikeSmith: ok, ty |
| 00:15 | <MikeSmith> | ccat: anyway you're doing the right thing |
| 00:16 | <MikeSmith> | there are plenty of places where the wording in the spec could be refined |
| 00:16 | <MikeSmith> | and Hixie cares a lot about making it as clear and unambiguous as possible |
| 00:17 | <ccat> | MikeSmith: found one (above) but this seems like an error -- then again so did the last one! |
| 00:24 | <MikeSmith> | ccat: in general you're not likely to find errors in the specーnot for this kind of stuff at least |
| 00:25 | <MikeSmith> | so when you find something that looks like an error it's much more likely that the problem is just that the spec needs to be reworded to make it more clear |
| 00:25 | <MikeSmith> | is this the DOM spec or HTML? |
| 00:26 | <MikeSmith> | oh about https://developers.whatwg.org/tabular-data.html#attr-table-sortable yeah that's a mixed-content problem that needs to be fixed |
| 00:26 | <ccat> | https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-document-getelementsbytagname |
| 00:26 | <MikeSmith> | I can't remember now who took over work on the generating the developer edition |
| 00:27 | <ccat> | me: "it says not GET the FOO elements that are in the HTML namespace, and which is what that DIV would be" |
| 00:27 | <MikeSmith> | ccat: ah yeah so the DOM was written my Ms2ger |
| 00:27 | <MikeSmith> | in part |
| 00:28 | <MikeSmith> | annevk is writing/maintaining it so you could ask him later too |
| 00:29 | <MikeSmith> | s/the DOM was written my Ms2ger/the DOM was spec written partly by Ms2ger/ |
| 00:31 | <ccat> | ok, ty |
| 00:33 | <MikeSmith> | strugee: if you're the one maintaining developers.whatwg.org now, there's a mixed-content problem at https://developers.whatwg.org/tabular-data.html#tabular-data which ccat noticed |
| 00:33 | <MikeSmith> | strugee: "The page at 'https://developers.whatwg.org/tabular-data.html'; was loaded over HTTPS, but requested an insecure stylesheet 'http://fonts.googleapis.com/css?family=Droid+Serif:regular,italic,bold'."; |
| 00:34 | <MikeSmith> | strugee: seems like that URL cna just be changed to the https equivalent |
| 00:37 | <ccat> | strugee: also insecure pictures |
| 00:52 | <smaug____> | MikeSmith: you gave me a good laugh: "in general you're not likely to find errors in the spec" :) |
| 00:52 | <MikeSmith> | smaug____: well you know what I mean |
| 00:53 | <MikeSmith> | smaug____: I wouldn't say that to you :) |
| 00:53 | <MikeSmith> | I should have written, "in general unless you're smaug or bz you're not likely to find errors in the spec" |
| 00:54 | <smaug____> | well, I hope everyone implementing something from specs review them first |
| 00:54 | <smaug____> | but I know that isn't actually happening |
| 00:56 | <jgraham> | ccat: If you parse <FOO> it ends up as <foo> in the DOM |
| 00:56 | <jgraham> | You can only get FOO by using createElementNS |
| 00:56 | <jgraham> | (FOO in the HTML namespace, that is) |
| 00:57 | <jgraham> | So the fact that getElementsByTagName won't find elements that are very difficult to create isn't a problem |
| 00:57 | <jgraham> | Because they ~never actually exist in real pages |
| 00:58 | <jgraham> | smaug____: Nice to know you still have a sense of humour |
| 00:58 | <ccat> | jgraham: :) |
| 00:58 | <ccat> | jgraham: but "spec" says "but not FOO elements that are in the HTML namespace" , which should mean <FOO> |
| 00:58 | <caitp> | does it ever make you angry that it's so terribel |
| 00:58 | <caitp> | sp |
| 00:59 | <jgraham> | ccat: Yes, but you can only create that using a createElementNS call from the DOM |
| 00:59 | <jgraham> | Every other way of creating HTML elements lowercases them |
| 00:59 | <ccat> | jgraham: what about "<HTML><FOO></HTML> ? |
| 01:00 | <jgraham> | ccat: That is identical to <html><foo></html> -> it gets lowercased by the parser |
| 01:01 | <jgraham> | Specifically it will create a DOM like <html><head></head><body><foo></foo></body></html> |
| 01:07 | <jgraham> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/3441 <- this example might be instructive although the DOM view gets the case wrong. The w() function writes to the text box at the bottom. |
| 01:07 | jgraham | sleep |
| 01:08 | <jgraham> | annevk: BTW it seems to me that Aryeh |
| 01:09 | <jgraham> | 's permissions argument is rather strong. AFAICT the main effect of the change you propose is to make the UX for these things over HTTP sufficiently unappealing that more people with use HTTPS |
| 01:09 | <jgraham> | Which is fine, but isn't the way it's prevented |
| 01:09 | <jgraham> | I might have misunderstood though |
| 01:10 | <ccat> | jgraham: ok, then "list of elements with local name localName" : "Whose namespace is the HTML namespace and whose local name is localName converted to ASCII lowercase." should be "Whose namespace is the HTML namespace and whose local name is localName (stored as lowercase ASCII when element is created)." |
| 01:21 | <ccat> | jgraham: still, this is the way it seems to read "Thus, in an HTML document, document.getElementsByTagName("FOO") will match FOO elements that are not in the HTML namespace (xml<FOO>), and foo elements that are in the HTML namespace (<HTML><foo>), but not FOO elements that are in the HTML namespace (<HTML><FOO>)." |
| 01:28 | <ccat> | jgraham: also, document.getElementsByTagName("FOO") is from point of view of person, not parser, so tagname "FOO" would mean <FOO> |
| 03:05 | <ccat> | . |
| 03:08 | <ccat> | q: is there a simple description on how to create a sortable table? the standard doc is (overly) complex and somewhat confusing, or does not work (maybe when done via chrome devtools) |
| 19:28 | <ccat> | . |
| 19:28 | <ccat> | Thus, in an HTML document, document.getElementsByTagName("FOO") will match FOO elements that are not in the HTML namespace [as xml <FOO>], and foo elements that are in the HTML namespace [as <HTML><foo>], but not FOO elements that are in the HTML namespace [as <HTML><FOO>]. ---- Is this correct? |
| 19:28 | <ccat> | . |
| 19:35 | <caitp-> | which FOO elements in the html namespace? |
| 19:39 | <ccat> | caitp-: that is from docs -- so it implies any element <FOO> in an html page |
| 19:39 | <ccat> | -- THE docs |
| 19:47 | <ccat> | caitp-: ? |
| 23:05 | <MikeSmith> | ccat: you can try writing some simple test cases, if you want to tests what UAs actually do, and compare it to the wording in the spec |
| 23:11 | <ccat> | MikeSmith: will have to try later as chrome-devtools converts tags to LC immediately |
| 23:16 | <MikeSmith> | ? |
| 23:16 | <MikeSmith> | ccat: you can just write a jsbin or whatever |
| 23:17 | <MikeSmith> | there may even be a test in the wpt testsuite for this already |
| 23:17 | <ccat> | MikeSmith: what is jsbin? |
| 23:17 | <MikeSmith> | like jsfiddle, codepen |
| 23:18 | <MikeSmith> | it lets you interactively edit js+html+css and see the results |
| 23:18 | <MikeSmith> | somewhat like using devtools in a browser |
| 23:18 | <MikeSmith> | except that the test case gets a URL that you can share |
| 23:19 | <MikeSmith> | ccat: anyway you may find a relevant test in https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/tree/master/dom/nodes |
| 23:19 | <MikeSmith> | and if you don't, you should contribute one for this later |
| 23:20 | <ccat> | MikeSmith: just tried in jsf but devtools shows tag as LC |
| 23:21 | <MikeSmith> | dunno what to say about that |
| 23:21 | <MikeSmith> | btw you can also use Live DOM Viewer |
| 23:21 | <MikeSmith> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/ |
| 23:25 | <jgraham> | Everything converts HTML tags to lowercase. That's really the point. |
| 23:25 | jgraham | is having difficulty understanding the remaining point of confusion |
| 23:27 | <jgraham> | https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/syntax.html#tag-name-state is the lowercasing in the parser (well the tokenizer) |
| 23:28 | <jgraham> | "Any other start tag" https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/syntax.html#parsing-main-inforeign has some (non-HTML) cases where the lowercasing is undone and some alternate canonical case is used instead |
| 23:28 | <jgraham> | https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/syntax.html#parsing-main-inforeign has ascii lowercasing |
| 23:29 | <jgraham> | https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-document-createelementns does *not* have ascii lowercasing |
| 23:30 | <jgraham> | https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-element-getelementsbytagname references https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-getelementsbytagname which converts the input argument to ascii lowercase in HTML documents |
| 23:31 | <jgraham> | https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-element-getelementsbytagnamens references https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-getelementsbytagnamens which does *not* do any conversion |
| 23:31 | <jgraham> | That's everyting there is to know about this |
| 23:32 | <jgraham> | Sorry, first "has acscii lowercasing" link should have been https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-getelementsbytagnamens |
| 23:33 | <jgraham> | Ugh *https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-document-createelement |
| 23:33 | <jgraham> | Third time lucky, it seems |
| 23:36 | <ccat> | jgraham: ... |
| 23:47 | <ccat> | MikeSmith: live-dom-viewer shows dom tags as UC ! |
| 23:48 | <MikeSmith> | that's just a representation |
| 23:48 | <MikeSmith> | that view iss not meant to accurately representing the case |
| 23:48 | <MikeSmith> | it's just a rendering |
| 23:49 | <MikeSmith> | ccat: I guess you need to look at the innerHTML view there |
| 23:50 | <MikeSmith> | if you want to confirm what's happening with the case |
| 23:51 | <MikeSmith> | but if you read the links that jgraham posted then like he said, it's hard to see what else needs to be said that's not already stated there |
| 23:53 | <ccat> | MikeSmith: (and jgraham) -- y, to LC at parsing -- BUT... |
| 23:54 | <ccat> | MikeSmith: is this considered HTML namespace <HTML> here? <HTML> |