| 00:31 | <MikeSmith> | is IndexedDB still not usable in practice in Safari? |
| 00:31 | MikeSmith | is wondering what the limitations actualy are |
| 02:43 | <MikeSmith> | I owe hober some Internet Points for muffing up his change to the HTML source (now fixed but broke the build in the interim) |
| 04:09 | <annevk> | TabAtkins: if you know you are omitting </td>, why the need for the space? |
| 04:25 | annevk | MikeSmith's revised build system |
| 04:25 | <annevk> | tries out /\ |
| 04:36 | <TabAtkins> | annevk: Ah, there is indeed a trailing space in the source. There was whitespace there originally, and the serializer collapses WS to a single space. |
| 04:37 | <TabAtkins> | I do drop leading/trailing WS-only anonymous blocks, I suppose I could further drop leading/trailing WS text nodes. |
| 04:37 | <annevk> | Wait there's trailing space in the source? |
| 04:37 | <annevk> | That sounds unlikely, since my editor removes that |
| 04:37 | <annevk> | There's no trailing space in the source |
| 04:41 | <TabAtkins> | No, trailing WS. Like, a newline. |
| 04:43 | <TabAtkins> | Precisely why there's no WS on the <a> lines, just the <code> lines, I'm not sure without experimenting. |
| 04:43 | <annevk> | Oh, there is a newline, sure |
| 04:43 | <TabAtkins> | Anyway, I can clean it up a little bit more if you want. |
| 04:43 | <annevk> | I guess I'm not too bothered by that one |
| 04:44 | <annevk> | The UI Events change was more problematic, but apparently that's a Shepherd thing again |
| 04:44 | <annevk> | I think I might actually be more often hurt by Shepherd than anything else |
| 04:44 | <TabAtkins> | Distributed systems, man. |
| 04:51 | <annevk> | Yeah, but there should be some way that newly added specifications maybe get staged or some such or don't get to squat on somebody else |
| 04:51 | <annevk> | TabAtkins: so is UI Events updated in Shepherd yet? |
| 04:56 | <TabAtkins> | annevk: Looks like it! |
| 04:56 | <annevk> | Would be nice if there was some way to find out about those things |
| 04:58 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah, I think I'm handling the IDL <dfn>-or-<a> wrong right now. |
| 04:58 | <TabAtkins> | For starters, it assumes that people are using "partial" properly, which seems to be mostly wrong. |
| 05:04 | <TabAtkins> | Unfortunate consequence of scaling up from "CSSWG, and other things I more-or-less have control over" to "shit, specs all over the place now". |
| 05:05 | <TabAtkins> | This should be handleable, I just need to tweak to a little more defensive without wrecking usability. |
| 05:09 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: can you make https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/d4e/raw-file/tip/source_respec.htm redirect to https://w3c.github.io/uievents/? |
| 05:15 | <MikeSmith> | yup |
| 05:15 | <MikeSmith> | Will do when I get back home |
| 05:15 | <MikeSmith> | out at lunch atm |
| 07:43 | <hsivonen> | annevk: Gecko's old converters in general. they are hard to read |
| 07:51 | <annevk> | hsivonen: ah yes, I did study those |
| 07:51 | <annevk> | hsivonen: and yes, they are not great |
| 07:51 | <annevk> | hsivonen: Rebel Opera had really great converter code |
| 07:54 | <roc> | "Rebel Opera"? |
| 07:55 | <annevk> | roc: Opera had this great marketing campaign about being the rebel browser |
| 07:56 | <annevk> | roc: I sorta feel image stopped being true once they adopted Chromium |
| 07:56 | <annevk> | that image* |
| 11:08 | <annevk> | I just read through the ruby use cases document and now I'm even more confused how we ended up in this situation |
| 11:35 | <gsnedders> | nox: ignore the serilaizer tests |
| 11:36 | <gsnedders> | nox: https://github.com/html5lib/html5lib-tests/issues/58 |
| 11:45 | <nox> | gsnedders: Ok. |
| 12:42 | <annevk> | Domenic: thanks for merging all that in |
| 12:46 | <annevk> | Domenic: I know get "rm: illegal option -- -" |
| 12:46 | <annevk> | s/know/now/ |
| 12:46 | <annevk> | Domenic: spelling out rm arguments might not actually be a thing? |
| 14:17 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: thanks so much for this fast building stuff |
| 15:47 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: glad we got it |
| 15:48 | <MikeSmith> | makes it much more pleasant to test changes |
| 15:55 | <MikeSmith> | I just set up a new macbook and build.sh --no-updates completes in 8 seconds on this machine (vs 14 seconds on my older macbook) |
| 15:57 | <MikeSmith> | but now even more than before I wish we used 80-character lines for the source |
| 15:58 | <MikeSmith> | because then I could actually have it in a side-by-side arrangement, two windows |
| 15:59 | <MikeSmith> | 80 columns each (15-inch screen |
| 16:18 | <annevk> | So far I can only find evidence in Gecko that "new ruby" is implemented |
| 16:18 | <annevk> | http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/layout/style/html.css#791 |
| 16:18 | <annevk> | From https://github.com/WebKit/webkit/blob/master/Source/WebCore/css/html.css#L1133 it seems WebKit only implemented HTML parser changes |
| 16:19 | <annevk> | Reminds me a bit of the <section>/<h1> fiasco |
| 17:39 | <annevk> | esprehn: well, I guess the question is whether they are "known" or simply parsed |
| 17:39 | <annevk> | esprehn: e.g., <isindex> was always HTMLUnknownElement too, although as I understand it Chrome dropped support for that element entirely |
| 17:52 | <annevk> | 3 more commits and whatwg/html is over 9000 |
| 17:52 | <annevk> | OVER 9000 |
| 17:54 | <wanderview> | annevk: that was fast |
| 17:55 | <annevk> | wanderview: I was just added emphasis |
| 17:55 | <annevk> | adding*, geez |
| 17:55 | <wanderview> | how much of that was just dealing with import logistics? |
| 17:57 | <annevk> | wanderview: there's prolly a dozen or so commits related to moving to GitHub |
| 17:58 | <annevk> | wanderview: if you view the commit history online you need to go to page 4 though before you see pre-GitHub history |
| 18:00 | <wanderview> | annevk: oh... I didn't realize it included pre-github history |
| 18:01 | <annevk> | wanderview: aah |
| 18:01 | <annevk> | wanderview: this is every commit since the initial SVN commit |
| 18:02 | <wanderview> | that seems more reasonable to me |
| 18:02 | <wanderview> | I thoguht you were saying you guys made 9000 commits in a couple weeks |
| 18:02 | <annevk> | hah |
| 18:05 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: Is there a guide for writing a Web Platform Test instead of a Mochitest such that it doesn't need to land upstream before it lands in m-c? |
| 18:05 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: or in general a guide for writing Web Platform Tests for people who know how to write Mochitests? |
| 18:06 | <annevk> | hsivonen: afaik you just get it reviewed, commit it, and "magic" takes over |
| 18:06 | <wanderview> | hsivonen: if you commit in mozilla-central/tests/web-platform/tests then it will get upstreamed automatically |
| 18:06 | <hsivonen> | annevk, wanderview: thanks |
| 18:07 | <hsivonen> | so is there a guide for actually writing tests? |
| 18:07 | <wanderview> | just a sec |
| 18:07 | <annevk> | hsivonen: http://testthewebforward.org/docs/ |
| 18:07 | wanderview | is too slow |
| 18:07 | <hsivonen> | annevk: thanks |
| 18:08 | <annevk> | wanderview: did you drink your coffee yet? :-P |
| 18:08 | <wanderview> | annevk: yes... but its saturday and it was my morning with the kids |
| 18:08 | <hsivonen> | seems like it's not written as a guide for people who are used to mochitests, but OK |
| 18:09 | <wanderview> | hsivonen: yea, not really written from mochitest perspective |
| 18:09 | <wanderview> | hsivonen: best I can suggest is to look at an existing test and adapt it |
| 18:13 | <wanderview> | hsivonen: I guess there are some specifics to mozilla-central... for example, after you add your test you need to run add --manifest-update to the ./mach web-platform-tests command to get the test included in the list |
| 18:19 | <hsivonen> | wanderview: thanks. --manifest-update seems like an important thing that's not part of the general docs |
| 18:19 | <wanderview> | its mach specific |
| 18:19 | <wanderview> | ./mach help web-platform-tests I guess |
| 18:22 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: yeah I do no think we yet have any specific docs written for an audience of people already familiar with writing mochitests. It would be nice to have some but in general the docs are targeted toward a baseline where we don't assume the contributer is yet familiar with anything (e.g., not reftests either) |
| 18:23 | <MikeSmith> | contributions (however small) to those docs are very welcome and can also earn you chocolate from jgraham |
| 18:23 | <MikeSmith> | a docs patch for --manifest-update would be nice to have |
| 18:26 | <hsivonen> | oh, nice. someone has already written a Web Platform Test for the gbk encoder |
| 18:26 | <hsivonen> | I guess I'll adapt that |
| 18:26 | <hsivonen> | it's less complex than whan I had in mind, too |
| 18:31 | MikeSmith | wonders who wrote that one |
| 18:49 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: git blame says the somebody who wrote that test is actually annevk |
| 18:50 | <wanderview> | that guy again |
| 19:28 | <esprehn> | annevk: if we have any behavior attached is shouldn't be an unknown element |
| 19:32 | <esprehn> | annevk: https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/blink/+/master/Source/core/html/HTMLTagNames.in#109 |
| 19:32 | <esprehn> | the person who added those to the file just didn't read the spec which says HTMLElement |
| 19:47 | <annevk> | esprehn: do you have any behavior attached though? |
| 19:47 | <annevk> | esprehn: it seems that Chromium, like WebKit, just implemented changes to the parser |
| 19:49 | <esprehn> | annevk: ah yes, it seems we don't implement the behavior |
| 20:22 | <MikeSmith> | I had thought Koji Ishii had been working on implementing rb+rtc support. I guess I was wrong. |
| 20:23 | <MikeSmith> | the fact that nobody has actually implemented any of it for this long seems to point to it not actually being so necessary or useful, despite all the rhetoric to the contrary |
| 20:23 | <MikeSmith> | or at least, nobody cares about it enough to contribute code, or to pay somebody to implement it |
| 20:24 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: I'm wishing more and more that I shouldn't have just given up in that thread on dev-platform in March or whenever this was |
| 20:25 | <MikeSmith> | the Intent to Implement thread for rb+rtc |
| 20:25 | <MikeSmith> | anyway, not too late |
| 20:30 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: I think he (or someone else) did for Gecko |
| 20:31 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: but no other browser seems to have anything beyond parser changes... |
| 20:31 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: yeah, and given that, seems like the Gecko implementation may have been premature |
| 20:33 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: yeah |
| 20:33 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: it's quite the clusterfuck |
| 20:33 | <MikeSmith> | yeah :( |
| 20:34 | <MikeSmith> | IMHO in this particular case, if Apple hasn't implemented it and are not treating it as priority, then it's not actually a priority for any big publishers, etc., in Japan |
| 20:34 | <annevk> | https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/112 is pretty cool |
| 20:35 | MikeSmith | looks |
| 20:35 | <annevk> | not sure we want to merge as-is, but saving over 80% in bandwidth seems huge |
| 20:35 | <MikeSmith> | oh wow yeah |
| 20:35 | <MikeSmith> | nice |
| 20:36 | <MikeSmith> | this stuff is kind of a black art |
| 20:36 | <MikeSmith> | glad somebody understands it |
| 20:39 | <MikeSmith> | but fwiw I think it's somewhat easier with nginx |
| 20:39 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: btw has there been some consideration about moving away from Apache to nginx |
| 20:39 | <MikeSmith> | Apache seems like kind of a sunk cost at this point |
| 20:39 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: I doubt nginx is RESTful though |
| 20:40 | <MikeSmith> | not sure in what way you mean |
| 20:40 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: trollish |
| 20:40 | <MikeSmith> | ah |
| 20:40 | <MikeSmith> | hahaha |
| 20:41 | <MikeSmith> | yeah, nginx certainly lacks one important personality |
| 20:41 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: I think if we found someone to maintain the servers we could maybe move |
| 20:41 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 20:41 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: but letting DreamHost manage all that is also somewhat convenient |
| 20:41 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: hmm, gotta go, nn |
| 20:41 | <MikeSmith> | well I'm not personally volunteering |
| 20:41 | <MikeSmith> | hai |
| 20:41 | <MikeSmith> | nn |