| 05:17 | <annevk> | As I mentioned elsewhere, I hope we can end up exclusively using Matrix and not need IRC alternatives, but maybe the community is big enough to be splintered? |
| 05:20 | <ryzokuken> | IRC could be bridged directly to this room, but as mentioned, appservice bridges tend to be flaky... |
| 05:24 | <sideshowbarker> | So far we have had only one strong objection for moving to Matrix, and that objection argued that there’s nothing wrong with the current Freenode situation and that therefore we have no need to move anywhere. |
| 05:25 | <sideshowbarker> | so given that, the Libera channel anyway essentially does nothing to help resolve that objection |
| 05:25 | <ryzokuken> |
the situation hasn't developed quite favorably for that argument... does the person still hold this view since freenode started maliciously taking over channels? |
| 05:25 | <sideshowbarker> | yes |
| 05:28 | <sideshowbarker> | yeah see https://github.com/whatwg/meta/issues/210#issuecomment-845242195 |
| 05:29 | <sideshowbarker> | …although now I’m seeing that one of the objecting-to-matrix comments I saw there before has since been either removed or edited — so maybe there is some more of a chance for resolution than I had thought |
| 05:31 | <ryzokuken> |
but many bad things have happened, even since the comment was made.
that's perfectly okay, of course. Many people connect to both networks for now anyway... |
| 05:32 | <sideshowbarker> | ah no, I realize now the comment I had been thinking of was not in that issue but instead on the IRC channel: https://freenode.logbot.info/whatwg/20210526#c8144303 |
| 05:32 | <ryzokuken> | oh, I see. This is interesting. |
| 05:32 | <ryzokuken> | Well, I guess I just... respectfully disagree then. |
| 05:33 | <ryzokuken> | This is not just political. It's about a provably malicious party taking control of the network. |
| 05:34 | <ryzokuken> | See for example the discussion around the change of policy regarding hate speech... |
| 05:36 | <sideshowbarker> | I had not seen the change in policy about hate speech yet — but then, I quit paying attention a few days ago, and disconnected my IRC client from the #whatwg Freenode channel and all other Freenode channels |
| 05:37 | <sideshowbarker> | I’m now re-connected to the #whatwg IRC channel from the Matrix bridge, but I’d honestly rather not need to be |
| 05:37 | <sideshowbarker> | I decided to stay connected there for cases where somebody happens to show up and ask about something I can answer |
| 05:38 | <ryzokuken> | I personally share your views. In the TC39 Inclusion Group, we looked deep into the whole matter for a long time before concluding that IRC was pretty provably hostile for newcomers. |
| 05:39 | <ryzokuken> | matrix/element is not perfect but it's a major improvement IMO |
| 05:39 | <sideshowbarker> | I personally share your views. In the TC39 Inclusion Group, we looked deep into the whole matter for a long time before concluding that IRC was pretty provably hostile for newcomers. |
| 05:40 | <ryzokuken> | right. I don't hold anything against people using IRC for personal reasons, I do the same, but using it for community projects hurts inclusion. |
| 05:41 | <sideshowbarker> | yeah the problems inherent with IRC are also the reasons why we’d be very unlikely to get agreement about bridging any IRC channel into this Matrix room |
| 05:42 | <sideshowbarker> | as mentioned at https://github.com/whatwg/meta/issues/210#issuecomment-851012643 |
| 05:43 | <sideshowbarker> | oh I see that actual precise term of art is “plumbing” an IRC channel into this room |
| 05:43 | <ryzokuken> | oh, because the IRC people wouldn't agree on a server either? |
| 05:44 | <sideshowbarker> | I mean because I guess it would mean then we’d have traffic from the IRC coming directly to this room |
| 05:44 | <sideshowbarker> | …and I am not sure we would have direct means to moderate that traffic |
| 05:45 | <ryzokuken> | yeah, the approach we've agreed upon at TC39 is to avoid bridging and just nudge folks who stumble across the IRC channel to Matrix |
| 05:45 | <ryzokuken> | I uploaded this yesterday btw 🙈 |
| 05:46 | <ryzokuken> | …and I am not sure we would have direct means to moderate that traffic |
| 05:48 | <sideshowbarker> | yeah, the approach we've agreed upon at TC39 is to avoid bridging and just nudge folks who stumble across the IRC channel to Matrix |
| 05:49 | <ryzokuken> | exactly, which is why we cannot just leave it in the topic and would have to do it manually... might end up making a bot for it 😅 |
| 05:49 | <ryzokuken> | but yeah, note that policy and it's clear how hostile the new management is 😕 😓 |
| 05:55 | <sideshowbarker> | yeah, thanks for the heads-up — I hadn’t actually seen https://github.com/freenode/web-7.0/pull/513/files yet |
| 05:56 | <sideshowbarker> | that’s awful — and seems to pretty clearly be at odds with the spirit of the WHATWG’s own documented code of conduct |
| 05:56 | <ryzokuken> | exactly |
| 05:59 | <sideshowbarker> | yeah — anyway, I’ve been a daily user of IRC for 20 years, and on the #whatwg IRC channel for 15 or 16 years, so what’s happened with Freenode is a pretty big disappointment for me personally |
| 06:01 | <ryzokuken> | same 😕 |
| 07:24 | <sideshowbarker> | So I’m considering how to resolve https://github.com/mdn/content/issues/5487 |
| 07:25 | <sideshowbarker> | …which leads me to read https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Text |
| 07:25 | <sideshowbarker> | The Text interface represents the textual content of Element or Attr. |
| 07:25 | <sideshowbarker> | If an element has no markup within its content, it has a single child implementing Text that contains the element's text. |
| 07:26 | <sideshowbarker> | …which leads me to wonder, Who wrote this and how did they get it so wrong? |
| 07:26 | <sideshowbarker> | then I take a look at https://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Core/core.html#ID-1312295772 |
| 07:27 | <sideshowbarker> | The Text interface inherits from CharacterData and represents the textual content (termed character data in XML) of an Element or Attr. If there is no markup inside an element's content, the text is contained in a single object implementing the Text interface that is the only child of the element. If there is markup, it is parsed into the information items (elements, comments, etc.) and Text nodes that form the list of children of the element. |
| 07:27 | <sideshowbarker> | so that MDN text is verbatim from the DOM3 spec… |
| 07:29 | <Ms2ger> | That explains how they got it so wrong |
| 07:29 | <sideshowbarker> | heh |
| 07:29 | <Ms2ger> | Let's blame plh :) |
| 07:29 | <sideshowbarker> | I hope plh didn’t actually write that part |
| 07:30 | <sideshowbarker> | I mean, when did it ever make sense to talk about “markup” in the DOM? |
| 07:31 | <sideshowbarker> | and was there ever some point where attributes actually had Text nodes in the DOM? (rather than just a string value) |
| 07:32 | <Ms2ger> | Oh, it's straight out of DOM 1 Core |
| 07:32 | <Ms2ger> | Attrs definitely had a Text child, I'm not even sure if I managed to remove that |
| 07:32 | <sideshowbarker> | ah yeah, I see https://www.w3.org/TR/REC-DOM-Level-1/level-one-core.html#ID-1312295772 |
| 07:33 | <sideshowbarker> | Attrs definitely had a Text child, I'm not even sure if I managed to remove that |
| 07:33 | <Ms2ger> | Seems like they don't anymore in Firefox |
| 07:34 | <sideshowbarker> | well that’s progress at least |
| 07:35 | <sideshowbarker> | I thought that issue would be “10 minute task” level-of-effort kind of issue |
| 07:36 | <sideshowbarker> | … but I often find that when I go to try to resolve an issue like that, and start reading the surrounding text… it’s something that’s gonna take a lot longer than just 10 minutes to unwind |
| 07:37 | <sideshowbarker> | I am now reminded of https://twitter.com/bhathos/status/1390109363180904453 |
| 07:37 | <sideshowbarker> | https://twitter.com/bhathos/status/1390109778945486851 |
| 07:39 | <sideshowbarker> | to which I would respond to say, I hear you, but also to say, You can edit the text of MDN articles directly in the GitHub UI (though yeah it does now also require an additional step of raising a PR and getting it approved) |
| 07:40 | <sideshowbarker> | but the fact a PR is now required hopefully helps mitigate wrong info getting added into MDN to begin with (compared to the old days when anybody could go in there and add/change anything they wanted, whether it was right or wrong, without review) |
| 07:41 | <sideshowbarker> | I lost count of how many times in the old days I had to revert a change that somebody made to “correct” the JavaScript media type to make it application/javascript, as the “standard” says it should be |
| 07:42 | <sideshowbarker> | anyway, end of monologue |
| 07:50 | <Ms2ger> | Duh, it should be text/css |
| 07:50 | <sideshowbarker> | heh |
| 08:07 | <jgraham> | If only the whole XML project had succeeded we could have application/javascript+xml where programmers would simply write out the AST in XML syntax and use XSLT to implement macros. |
| 08:12 | <sideshowbarker> | jgraham: we can still hope |
| 08:12 | sideshowbarker | tries to figure out which MDN article to sneak that quote from jgraham into |
| 08:18 | <Ms2ger> | Surely they already have a page "Bad ideas (jgraham)" |
| 08:36 | <foolip> | Ms2ger: I successfully removed Text children of Attr in Chromium, somewhere in https://crbug.com/305105 saga. |
| 08:57 | <sideshowbarker> | hmm yeah I now vaguely recall hearing before about the “make Attr no longer a subtype of Node” thing — but I didn’t care, because it didn’t affect me personally and instead I just felt slightly sorry for the people who had to spend time on fixing it 😂 |
| 08:59 | <foolip> | sideshowbarker: That was good procrastination material for me, but ultimately the simplification didn't get all the way to the original goal. But I think where things ended up isn't terrible. |
| 08:59 | <Ms2ger> | "less terrible", I'd say :) |
| 08:59 | <foolip> | I'll take it. |
| 09:00 | <Ms2ger> | Oh, and contrats on the house, btw :) |
| 09:00 | <foolip> | Thanks! |
| 09:01 | <foolip> | My hands are now messed up from strong chemicals (cleaning products) last week, I don't recommend that part of moving. |
| 09:02 | sideshowbarker | sideshowbarker: That was good procrastination material for me, but ultimately the simplification didn't get all the way to the original goal. But I think where things ended up isn't terrible. |
| 09:03 | <Ms2ger> | Do you have two? :) |
| 09:03 | <jgraham> | Moving is Sweden is, I think, a slightly different experience from moving elsewhere. Or at least in the UK there's no requirement to have magazine-quality photos of the house done when you're listing it, and lower (but not zero) expectations of cleanliness when you move in/out. |
| 09:03 | <foolip> | Ms2ger: two hands yes, two houses no, but an apartment |
| 09:04 | <foolip> | jgraham: magazine-quality photos pretty much sums up the expectation, yeah. |
| 09:04 | <Ms2ger> | I meant two coins, but glad you have two hands :) |
| 09:05 | <foolip> | Oh :) |
| 09:07 | <sideshowbarker> | Ms2ger: I got a coin made especially for you 👆 |
| 09:07 | <Ms2ger> | 🙏 |
| 09:08 | <Ms2ger> | Back to work for me |
| 09:13 | <Andreu Botella (he/they)> | foolip: I think I know a way to give a name to the #testing room, if you're a mod on the IRC side. |
| 09:15 | <jgraham> | I think sideshowbarker can get ops on that room, maybe? |
| 09:21 | <foolip> | Andreu Botella (he/they): looks like I'm not |
| 09:22 | <Andreu Botella (he/they)> | For reference, the way to do it is by linking your matrix account with your IRC username: https://matrix-org.github.io/matrix-appservice-irc/latest/usage.html#customising-your-experience |
| 09:23 | <Andreu Botella (he/they)> | I believe that should now give you Matrix permissions in the room, which would let you go into Settings and set a name |
| 09:24 | <Andreu Botella (he/they)> | Either that or follow the more complicated way of changing things in https://matrix-org.github.io/matrix-appservice-irc/latest/room_configuration.html |
| 10:08 | <sideshowbarker> | I think sideshowbarker can get ops on that room, maybe? |
| 13:59 | <sideshowbarker> | zcorpan_: about https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/960, I don’t have a Windows environment in which to try to reproduce that. As far as what Nick Schonning said, I don’t think the asciiquotes option is actually going to have any effect. And if it’s not due to the Windows shell environment not having its LANG equivalent set to UTF-8 encoding, then I don’t have much idea what else the problem could be. |
| 14:02 | <sideshowbarker> | oh, maybe invoking java with -Dfile.encoding=UTF-8 is an idea — but other than that and checking the LANG encoding, I don’t know |
| 14:02 | <sideshowbarker> | I definitely have no idea what "page files" (that Nick refers to) means in the Windows context |
| 14:03 | <zcorpan_> | sideshowbarker: ok, thx |
| 14:27 | <lpd> | Hi! I have a spec question but I'm not sure if it belongs here. The WHATWG HTML spec defines the unfocusing steps https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/interaction.html#unfocusing-steps, but it's not readily apparent what triggers these besides calling Element.blur(). Specifically, I'm interested in whether the element no longer being rendered https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/rendering.html#being-rendered should trigger these steps. Intuitively I would say yes, but I seem to get conflicting behaviour from browsers: Firefox and Safari no, Chrome yes. |
| 14:37 | <annevk> | lpd: per spec I think Chrome is wrong and I don't think there's an issue on changing this |
| 14:39 | <lpd> | lpd: per spec I think Chrome is wrong and I don't think there's an issue on changing this |
| 14:40 | <annevk> | lpd: I guess it depends on what you want, but a Chrome bug seems like a good start to me |
| 14:41 | <annevk> | lpd: and yeah, unless a spec states something ought to happen, it shouldn't happen |
| 14:41 | <lpd> | Cool, thanks! |
| 14:42 | <annevk> | zcorpan_: there was already a zcorpan without underscore? :-) |
| 15:07 | <freddy> | (matrix is not very forgiving with lost passwords. the account is forever lost when you don't haven an email address set) |
| 15:54 | <sideshowbarker> | freddy: Yeah matrix has a lot of quirks. There are also some issues with how it handles SSO — or at least with how some matrix clients do. In my experience some matrix clients don’t work at all work at all with chat.mozilla.org’s SSO at least — though Element seems to, reliably. |
| 16:13 | <sideshowbarker> | zcorpan_: I posted https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/960#issuecomment-851580808. I guess the Windows way to set the encoding of the shell environment to UTF-8 is to run the command chcp 65001. |
| 16:16 | <aja> | sideshowbarker: OFC, perfectly obvious! |
| 16:45 | <MayeulC> | (matrix is not very forgiving with lost passwords. the account is forever lost when you don't haven an email address set) |