| 00:00 | <Hixie> | as i'm actively working on that right now |
| 00:00 | <ianloic> | very good! |
| 00:00 | <Hixie> | events that affect the entire environment would be dispatched at the Window object or the root element or both, yeah |
| 00:00 | <ianloic> | ok cool |
| 00:00 | <ianloic> | the storage event is on the body tag though isn't it? |
| 00:01 | <othermaciej> | ianloic: you can (in theory) make any arbitrary object an event target |
| 00:02 | <Hixie> | firing an event at the body element means that it'll fire at the body element, and probably bubble up to the window (if it's a bubbling event), and if there is no body, it's instead fired straight at the Document and bubbles to the Window |
| 00:02 | <ianloic> | othermaciej, that's true. I wonder how well that's supported by the various js libraries people are using. |
| 00:03 | ianloic | nods. |
| 00:06 | <Lachy> | good morning |
| 00:06 | <Hixie> | hey |
| 00:07 | <ianloic> | jeebus these <video> threads are long, and I don't even care about codec choices |
| 00:07 | <Hixie> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#video is the spec so far |
| 00:10 | <ianloic> | hmm, I can't remember what it was I felt was missing when I read that before |
| 00:10 | <ianloic> | I'll have to think about this a bit |
| 00:18 | <othermaciej> | it's becoming much more thorough than the original version |
| 00:18 | <ianloic> | cool |
| 00:19 | <othermaciej> | you may also find this interesting: http://webkit.org/specs/HTML_Timed_Media_Elements.html |
| 00:19 | <othermaciej> | although Hixie is rapidly folding much of that content into the whatwg spec, generally improving it in the process |
| 00:20 | <othermaciej> | most of the mailing list discussion has been a waste of electrons |
| 00:20 | <Hixie> | most of the mailing list discussion has been about codecs |
| 00:20 | <ianloic> | othermaciej, yeah, that does look interesting |
| 00:21 | <ianloic> | yeah, I really really don't care about codecs |
| 00:21 | <ianloic> | the fact is that everyone will ship with mpeg 1/2/4 support |
| 00:21 | <Dashiva> | um |
| 00:21 | <KevinMarks> | for some value of 4 |
| 00:22 | <ianloic> | KevinMarks, well, yeah |
| 00:22 | <othermaciej> | and for some value of ship, which may include "not ship" |
| 00:23 | <ianloic> | ok, so let me rephrase that a little: user agents will just build on top of the platform's media playback system which will support all the common formats |
| 00:23 | <Dashiva> | Which requires the user to acquire codecs |
| 00:23 | <ianloic> | Dashiva, which is basically automatic these days isn't it? |
| 00:23 | <Dashiva> | Not quite |
| 00:24 | <ianloic> | ok - I'm only really familiar with the Linux world. |
| 00:24 | <Lachy> | I stopped reading that codec discussion about 160 messages ago. I assume no _new_ arguments were introduced since then? |
| 00:24 | <Dashiva> | I think they've mostly stopped arguing |
| 00:24 | <Dashiva> | Now they're talking about defining the codec parameters and somesuch |
| 00:24 | <ianloic> | Lachy, all I read was that maciej is conspiring against us all... |
| 00:25 | <othermaciej> | ianloic: Firefox currently appears to plan to ship native support for Ogg/Theora/Vorbis, and may later also support OS-native codec stacks |
| 00:25 | <Philip`> | ianloic: The only way I could find to play a MPEG-4 (actually Xvid) video on my university's Linux computers was by compiling mplayer from source, which wasn't particularly automatic |
| 00:25 | <othermaciej> | yes, Gervase has finally unmasked my evil for all to see |
| 00:26 | <Dashiva> | Next week it'll be revealed that othermaciej and chris are really identical twins |
| 00:26 | <othermaciej> | am I the evil twin? |
| 00:26 | <ianloic> | othermaciej, oh bizare! I wonder why they'd want to ship ogg. I guess they must believe the patent claims. |
| 00:26 | <Dashiva> | That's what the debate will be about |
| 00:27 | <ianloic> | Philip`, oh really? weird. |
| 00:27 | <ianloic> | I think the baseline codec should be animated image/gif |
| 00:27 | <ianloic> | that's something we can all agree on |
| 00:27 | <othermaciej> | ianloic: they consider it reasonably patent-safe, and like the lack of known patents that cost money to license |
| 00:27 | <Philip`> | I think it should be animated ASCII art |
| 00:27 | <Dashiva> | Someone already suggested avi/jpg or whatever it's called |
| 00:28 | <othermaciej> | animated gif should probably be supported, but it's not actually a *useful* baseline |
| 00:28 | <othermaciej> | I mean, it's not gonna get people to switch from Flash |
| 00:28 | <ianloic> | true |
| 00:28 | <Dashiva> | Might be useful to establish if that should be a guideline or not: should <video> outperform flash? |
| 00:29 | <othermaciej> | what do you mean by "outperform" |
| 00:29 | <othermaciej> | smaller bitrate for the same video quality? |
| 00:29 | <Dashiva> | Be considered a generally superior alternative by relevant metrics |
| 00:29 | <Philip`> | What version of Flash? (I remember someone saying newer versions had a better codec, but people don't use it because it's not as widely installed; but it's far more widely installed than <video>) |
| 00:29 | <Dashiva> | Not just codec, but ease of use, distribution, content creation, market penetration, etc |
| 00:29 | <ianloic> | Philip`, modern flash uses On2 VP6 which is essentially equivalent to mpeg4 |
| 00:30 | <ianloic> | Dashiva, flv probably has the best market penetration of any codec |
| 00:30 | <othermaciej> | equivalent? |
| 00:30 | <othermaciej> | in what sense? |
| 00:30 | <ianloic> | othermaciej, in that you can do a lossless transform between them (for some profile of mpeg4) |
| 00:30 | <othermaciej> | the bitstream is not compatible, and its compression ratio is not as good as H.264 |
| 00:31 | <Dashiva> | I think many people mean h263 or older when they say mpeg, and explicitly h264 for that |
| 00:31 | <ianloic> | othermaciej, oh really? I must be confused :( |
| 00:32 | <ianloic> | othermaciej, there are tools to do that transformation (flv to some form of mpeg4) |
| 00:32 | <ianloic> | othermaciej, http://vixynet.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/vixynet/ |
| 00:32 | <othermaciej> | flv is usually h.263 |
| 00:33 | <othermaciej> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FLV |
| 00:33 | <othermaciej> | well, Sorensen Spark, which is a slight variant of H.263 |
| 00:33 | <Dashiva> | Are there fears of patent issues related to containers (not the codecs and contents)? |
| 00:33 | <othermaciej> | Flash 8 supports VP6 but most flash video on the web does not use that |
| 00:33 | <ianloic> | oh really? |
| 00:34 | <othermaciej> | anyway, codec conversation == boring |
| 00:34 | <ianloic> | I've been assuming that most of the web is VP6 not sorenson |
| 00:34 | <ianloic> | true |
| 00:34 | <ianloic> | we could spice it up by inventing new acronyms |
| 00:34 | <ianloic> | but there are more entertaining alternatives |
| 00:36 | <othermaciej> | having One True Codec would be great but seems fairly unpossible at this stage |
| 00:38 | <KevinMarks> | youtube is the h263 variant |
| 01:47 | <Hixie> | hm, go figure |
| 01:47 | <Hixie> | someone actually likes SMIL |
| 01:48 | <othermaciej> | yeah, I was surprised to hear someone describe it as great for authors |
| 01:48 | <Hixie> | certainly isn't what i've heard from authors |
| 02:01 | <KevinMarks> | the first SMIL spec wasn't bad; it went stray after that |
| 02:02 | <Hixie> | even the first is a bit over the top |
| 02:02 | <Hixie> | at least for a web spec that's expected to interact with html, etc |
| 02:02 | <Hixie> | which may not have been the intent |
| 02:04 | <KevinMarks> | I don't think it was meant to interact with HTML; it defined a 'text' element, not an 'html' element |
| 02:07 | <Hixie> | that's fine, but people are trying to use it with HTML (and SVG) |
| 02:07 | <othermaciej> | I think in the original SMIL era people did not realize how much HTML would become the basis for all sorts of content, not just what people thought of as documents |
| 02:08 | <KevinMarks> | yes, I think that was true |
| 02:09 | <KevinMarks> | compare the goals of SMIL 1.0 with SMIL 2.1 |
| 02:11 | <Hixie> | Lachy: yt? |
| 02:12 | <Lachy> | yo! |
| 02:12 | <Hixie> | Lachy: can you grab the text for the following questions on the whatwg.org front page and stick them in the FAQ?: |
| 02:12 | <Hixie> | What are "Web Applications"? |
| 02:12 | <Hixie> | Aren't "Web Applications" already possible? |
| 02:12 | <Lachy> | ok |
| 02:12 | <Hixie> | and What exactly are you working on? |
| 02:12 | <Hixie> | feel free to fix them or change them or whatever |
| 02:12 | <Hixie> | i'm about to nuke them front the front page |
| 02:12 | <ajnewbold> | I made a web application today |
| 02:13 | <ajnewbold> | it's a brain! http://newbold.name/brain/ |
| 02:14 | <Hixie> | lachy: if you haven't got them yet they're now at http://www.whatwg.org/index.old |
| 02:14 | <Lachy> | I just copied them |
| 02:14 | <Hixie> | k |
| 02:14 | othermaciej | wonders how the "changes from HTML4" page is going |
| 02:17 | <othermaciej> | hmm, looks pretty good |
| 02:20 | <Lachy> | Hixie, done http://blog.whatwg.org/faq/#web-apps |
| 02:20 | <Lachy> | I'll review and edit them later |
| 02:22 | <Hixie> | cool thanks |
| 02:23 | <Philip`> | Hmm, it wasn't at all obvious that the "FAQ: WHATWG i HTML 5" link was Polish until I tried it - I thought the "i" in the middle was just a mistake |
| 02:23 | <othermaciej> | I wouldn't have realized it either |
| 02:26 | <othermaciej> | hmm, I can think of lots of things that could go in http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Changes_from_HTML4 but I am hesitating to do all the work to update it nicely |
| 02:28 | <Lachy> | Philip`: I just noticed that and I'm going to adjust the title to say (Polish) at the end |
| 02:29 | <Lachy> | done |
| 02:30 | <Philip`> | Okay, thanks :-) |
| 02:31 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: dump your ideas into the discussion page |
| 02:31 | <Hixie> | ok, WHATWG has a twitter account now |
| 02:31 | <Hixie> | cunningly named WHATWG |
| 02:31 | <Philip`> | (The links in the "What exactly are you working on?" section don't work) |
| 02:32 | <Hixie> | the whatwg.org front page automatically updates from the twitter status |
| 02:32 | Lachy | adds WHATWG as a twitter friend |
| 02:32 | <Hixie> | and my commit script automatically twitters the commit message when i check in |
| 02:32 | <Lachy> | oh, awesome! |
| 02:36 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: ah, there's a good idea |
| 02:41 | Hixie | kills the tabs on the front page |
| 02:42 | <Lachy> | Hey Hixie (and anyone else who wants to), could you please spare a few minutes to review my responses to some interview questions from the Web Standards Group? http://lachy.id.au/temp/wsg |
| 02:42 | <Hixie> | i can do that after dinner, sure |
| 02:42 | <Hixie> | bbiab |
| 02:42 | <Lachy> | ok, sure. |
| 03:08 | <Hixie> | right let's see |
| 03:10 | <Hixie> | XHTML2 only started in 2002? |
| 03:10 | <Hixie> | wow |
| 03:10 | <Hixie> | lachy: you have a sentence that goes "However, ..., but ..." which is awkward |
| 03:10 | <Lachy> | did it start earlier than that? I think that was the first draft i found |
| 03:11 | <Lachy> | yeah, I should fix that |
| 03:11 | <Hixie> | dunno, you have internal access now :-) |
| 03:13 | <Hixie> | "there are over 300 participants already" is ambiguous about which group you mean |
| 03:13 | <Hixie> | i'd write "there are over 300 participants in the W3C group already" |
| 03:13 | <Hixie> | or some such |
| 03:13 | <Hixie> | though if you say that you might want to also point out that there are over 700 in the whatwg :-) |
| 03:17 | <Hixie> | "These days, the W3C process is quite strict." the process is... doesn't mean much has changed though |
| 03:18 | <Hixie> | other than that looks good |
| 03:24 | <Lachy> | Fixed the participant issue and the "however/but" issue |
| 03:25 | <Lachy> | should I change anything about the W3C process? |
| 03:27 | <othermaciej> | your answers seemed generally good |
| 03:28 | <Lachy> | the first public draft of XHTMl2 is 20020805, I'm trying to find anything in the member section that would indicate when they actually started |
| 03:28 | <Hixie> | look in w3c-html-wg around that time maybe |
| 03:33 | <Lachy> | that's where I'm looking |
| 03:33 | <Lachy> | I found a few brief mentions of XHTML2 in a few threads, but nothing linking to an editors draft or anything |
| 03:34 | <Lachy> | I might just say it began around 2001-2002 |
| 03:38 | Hixie | updates the whatwg.org front page |
| 03:38 | <Hixie> | it's been dragged kicking and screaming into 2007 |
| 03:38 | <Lachy> | I changed it to "XHTML2 has been in <em>secret</em> development since around 2001–2002 and..." |
| 03:38 | <Hixie> | hah |
| 03:38 | <Hixie> | nice |
| 03:41 | <othermaciej> | the new layout doesn't look right in Safari 2.0.4 |
| 03:41 | <Hixie> | that's ironic, given that i used safari trunk to do it |
| 03:41 | <Hixie> | can't win, i guess :-P |
| 03:41 | <Hixie> | maybe you should add opt-in versioning in your browser, i hear that solves this kind of problem |
| 03:42 | Hixie | fixes |
| 03:42 | othermaciej | snickers |
| 03:43 | <othermaciej> | we'll only render it right if you specifically request IE8 mode |
| 03:45 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy - as far as the "They include representatives from 4 major browser vendors: Mozilla, Opera, Safari and IE" part, Nokia also makes a browser and is a member of the HTML WG. |
| 03:45 | <Hixie> | i wouldn't call nokia a "major browser vendor" |
| 03:45 | <othermaciej> | so does AOL, if you want to get technical |
| 03:45 | <Hixie> | and the w3c... |
| 03:46 | <Lachy> | they're the 4 that most people will care about. There's no need to list every single particpant |
| 03:46 | <ianloic> | I wonder if Nokia or Apple have shipped more browsers... |
| 03:46 | <Lachy> | although, I could link to the participant list |
| 03:46 | <Hixie> | ianloic: better question, which has had the most page views of public web content with their browsers? |
| 03:46 | <othermaciej> | Nokia has probably shipped more total browser units, but likely fewer of browsers actually written by them rather than licensed |
| 03:47 | <othermaciej> | but all the browsers they shipped probably add up to less use share than Safari |
| 03:47 | <othermaciej> | if web stats can be at all trusted |
| 03:47 | <othermaciej> | gotta roll |
| 03:47 | <othermaciej> | later folks |
| 03:47 | <Hixie> | later |
| 03:47 | <ianloic> | Hixie, yeah, they're both probably important metrics |
| 03:47 | <ianloic> | othermaciej, later mate |
| 03:47 | <Lachy> | bye |
| 03:47 | <Hixie> | install base isn't a particularily interesting metric |
| 03:47 | <Hixie> | by install base, lynx has huge numbers. |
| 03:48 | <ianloic> | Hixie, not that huge - but probably similar to Safari |
| 03:48 | <Hixie> | every linux server out there has lynx on it |
| 03:49 | <ianloic> | Hixie, it's not installed by default on Debian & Ubuntu... |
| 03:49 | <Hixie> | is links? |
| 03:49 | <ianloic> | Hixie, nope |
| 03:49 | <Hixie> | elinks? |
| 03:49 | <ianloic> | nada |
| 03:49 | <Hixie> | Emacs/W3? |
| 03:49 | <ianloic> | not even w3m |
| 03:49 | <ianloic> | not even wget |
| 03:49 | <Hixie> | wow, how are you supposed to browse the web through a shell on those boxes? how retarded. |
| 03:49 | <ianloic> | I'm not even sure about telnet |
| 03:49 | <ianloic> | "apt-get install lynx" |
| 03:50 | <Hixie> | in any case |
| 03:50 | <Hixie> | usage is what matters, not install base |
| 03:52 | <ianloic> | I think install base can be an interesting number. Perhaps Nokia would have interesting ideas about why people aren't using the browsers they're shipping. Certainly ui, network speed and cost are factors but perhaps there are issues at the protocol and formats level that affect it. |
| 03:52 | <ianloic> | And that's only kind of a devil's advocate position |
| 03:52 | <Lachy> | Hixie, indeed. If installed base mattered, then IE would have 100% of all Windows machines, but we know that there are many windows users that use other browsers |
| 03:53 | <ianloic> | Lachy, but Nokia has customers who chose to buy a product with web browsing as a feature, but for some reason they're not using it. |
| 03:53 | <Lachy> | + a small percentage of Mac and Linux web that run IE through virtualisation or other means |
| 03:53 | <ianloic> | Lachy, those people are interesting |
| 03:53 | <MikeSmith> | support for real Web applications is also what matters. Nokia's Webkit-based browser has CSS, Javascript/XHR support. |
| 03:54 | <ianloic> | oh nice! |
| 03:54 | <ianloic> | my mobile browser didn't do any of that stuff :( |
| 03:54 | <MikeSmith> | and I'm not sure why it's important to make the distinction of "major" browser vendors |
| 03:54 | <Hixie> | btw if anyone wants to twitter to the whatwg account for some reason (e.g. if you want to hack the blog so it twitters when there's a new post), let me know |
| 03:55 | <Hixie> | i don't want to put the password out, since then we could lose control of the account if anyone wants to be nasty |
| 03:55 | <Lachy> | we could set the blog up so that the excerpt gets twittered |
| 03:55 | <MikeSmith> | ianloic - you need to a handset you can run Opera Mobile or Nokia's S60 browser on :) |
| 03:56 | <MikeSmith> | you still using a Sidekick? |
| 03:56 | <ianloic> | MikeSmith, indeed - I'm hooked on qwerty |
| 03:57 | <Lachy> | I wonder if there's a WP-Twitter plugin |
| 03:57 | <MikeSmith> | ianloic - Nokia N61 has qwerty |
| 03:59 | <Lachy> | there seem to be plugins for publishing twitter status on the blog, but can't see any for updating twitter status |
| 03:59 | <ianloic> | MikeSmith, my carrier doesn't seem to carry it - perhaps in a couple of years :( |
| 04:01 | <ianloic> | MikeSmith, plus for a lot of the stuff I do danger's always on model works really well |
| 04:02 | <MikeSmith> | ianloic - yeah, I know those are nice devices. they should just have better browsers on them :) |
| 04:04 | <Lachy> | awesome! http://blog.victoriac.net/?p=87 |
| 04:04 | <ianloic> | MikeSmith, true |
| 04:04 | <ianloic> | MikeSmith, also, other handsets should behave more like computers on broadband than computers on dialup :( |
| 04:04 | <Lachy> | I'll install that later. Hixie if you could provide the info I need, that would be great |
| 04:07 | <Hixie> | /msg'ed |
| 04:45 | <Hixie> | wtf is http 405 |
| 04:45 | <Hixie> | oh |
| 04:45 | <Hixie> | method not allowed |
| 04:45 | <Hixie> | why did i get that |
| 04:45 | <Hixie> | oh i know |
| 04:57 | <Hixie> | anyone have a version of http://www.bloglines.com/images/spinner.gif which they know the provenance of? |
| 04:57 | <Hixie> | and/or that they know is public domain? |
| 05:01 | <Lachy> | Hixie, the Firefox web dev toolbar has one released under the GPL |
| 05:01 | <Lachy> | if you have it installed, see chrome://webdeveloper/content/images/content/loading.gif |
| 05:01 | <Hixie> | ooo, that works |
| 05:01 | <Hixie> | i don't |
| 05:05 | <Lachy> | do you want me to send you the image then? |
| 05:05 | <Hixie> | sure |
| 05:07 | <Lachy> | emailed it |
| 05:07 | <Hixie> | thanks |
| 05:10 | <karlUshi> | fwiw: I like smil :) implementations are far to be perfect but it's quite easy to create slideshow with it for examples. |
| 05:11 | <Hixie> | right, whatwg's twitter status can now be set from the whatwg home page |
| 05:12 | <Lachy> | cool. btw, you told me it would take 10 minutes to complete, about 1 hour ago :-) |
| 05:13 | <Hixie> | i did other things at the same time :-) |
| 05:29 | ianloic | curses the squishy unstable nature of XUL. |
| 05:29 | <ianloic> | or should I say, the XUL implementation |
| 05:53 | <Hixie> | why wouldn't the script on whatwg.org to update twitter work on firefox? |
| 05:53 | <Hixie> | i see nothing that would break it |
| 05:53 | <Hixie> | i'm confused |
| 05:54 | <ianloic> | Hixie, where is it? |
| 05:54 | <Hixie> | search for updateTwitter on whatwg.org |
| 05:55 | <Hixie> | for some reason the server isn't getting the status=foo stuff |
| 05:56 | <ianloic> | I don't see it on www.whatwg.org |
| 05:56 | <Hixie> | oh i have to set the content type i bet |
| 05:56 | <Hixie> | never mind |
| 05:59 | <Hixie> | ok it works |
| 05:59 | <Hixie> | all good |
| 06:11 | <Hixie> | well, everyone seems in favour of using the whatwg spec and having me continue as editor so far |
| 06:15 | <Lachy> | I'm sure there will be someone who says no. I'm interested to see what kind of arguments they raise against it and what they put forth as an alternative |
| 07:56 | <othermaciej> | I added some items to possibly add to the discussion page for http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Changes_from_HTML4 |
| 07:56 | <othermaciej> | hey annevk |
| 07:57 | <annevk> | morning |
| 07:57 | <othermaciej> | HTML5 has now officially been proposed to the HTML WG |
| 08:00 | <annevk> | I saw, cool |
| 08:00 | <annevk> | and now we wait |
| 08:00 | <othermaciej> | perhaps Chris will have to write yet another essay |
| 08:03 | <annevk> | he mentioned somewhere that he wants to move forward with XML |
| 08:03 | <othermaciej> | I liked his message where he said XHTML only failed because 80% of browsers didn't support it |
| 08:04 | <othermaciej> | I wonder which 80% that could be |
| 08:05 | <annevk> | there's an old HTML+Time proposal from Microsoft btw that covers SMIL in HTML |
| 08:13 | <annevk> | Re: changes from HTML4 page, I'll take a look later today. <input> needs to be covered indeed and the others as well probably |
| 08:39 | <annevk> | bah, currenttime |
| 08:48 | <zcorpan> | home again, at last |
| 08:49 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/validator/html5/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fsimon.html5.org%2Ftemp%2Fw3c-home-in-html5.html |
| 08:49 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: nice :) |
| 08:52 | <zcorpan> | http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?p=112#112 anything inaccurate? |
| 08:54 | <annevk> | DOCTYPEs can also just give a public identifier |
| 08:54 | <annevk> | if it's assumed that identifier is supported by the client that reads the document |
| 08:54 | <zcorpan> | it's still a reference to a dtd |
| 08:55 | <annevk> | I'm not sure you answered his second question though |
| 08:55 | <annevk> | a DTD defines the valid structure of a document (roughly) |
| 08:55 | <annevk> | oh nm |
| 08:55 | <zcorpan> | i presumed that he really meant doctype declaration |
| 08:56 | <zcorpan> | although i think i covered both :) |
| 09:00 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: http://syntax.whatwg.org/ could use a note that the SGML stuff has been abandoned |
| 09:03 | <Hixie> | syntax is under fantasai's account i think |
| 18:02 | <ianloic> | w3c's mailing list archive format sucks |
| 18:02 | annevk | rather likes it |
| 18:03 | <ianloic> | annevk, it's not threaded so it's hard to weave through conversations in the way I like to |
| 18:03 | <ianloic> | annevk, basically now I have to go subscribe to html-public |
| 18:04 | <annevk> | you'd have to become a member first |
| 18:04 | <ianloic> | oh really? |
| 18:04 | <ianloic> | is membership still open? |
| 18:05 | <annevk> | certainly |
| 18:05 | <annevk> | see the steps here: http://blog.whatwg.org/w3c-restarts-html-effort |
| 18:05 | <ianloic> | annevk, thanks! |
| 18:10 | gsnedders | would rather anyone could subscribe to the W3C lists, even if not post |
| 18:12 | <annevk> | gsnedders, you could make feature requests... |
| 18:14 | <othermaciej> | hah, sounds like Chris Wilson *is* working on another essay |
| 18:14 | <othermaciej> | I feel bad now, giving him all these writing assignment |
| 18:14 | <othermaciej> | s |
| 18:14 | <annevk> | maybe you should teach |
| 18:57 | zcorpan | updates /html5-elements... |
| 18:58 | <annevk> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Apr/att-0018/entities.htm has an entity test based on IE7 |
| 18:58 | <annevk> | It seems IE7 is doing reparsing though |
| 18:58 | <annevk> | ¬in "becomes" ¬in and ∉ stays the "same" |
| 18:59 | <zcorpan> | http://simon.html5.org/test/html/parsing/entities/trailing-semicolon/ |
| 19:01 | <annevk> | ah cool |
| 19:01 | <annevk> | zcorpan, you got my <map> comment? |
| 19:02 | <zcorpan> | where? |
| 19:02 | <zcorpan> | can't recall anything about <map> |
| 19:02 | <annevk> | name is dropped |
| 19:02 | <zcorpan> | ah |
| 19:02 | <zcorpan> | right |
| 19:03 | <zcorpan> | but only for conformance |
| 19:03 | <zcorpan> | document conformance* |
| 19:04 | <annevk> | your list of elements is about document conformance right? |
| 19:04 | <zcorpan> | yes |
| 19:04 | <zcorpan> | thanks |
| 19:05 | <zcorpan> | i have some demos on <map id name> that could be turned into test cases also |
| 19:05 | <annevk> | <map id=bar> <map name=bar> |
| 19:06 | <annevk> | (both nested and as siblings might be interesting...) |
| 19:06 | <zcorpan> | ok |
| 19:07 | <zcorpan> | although isn't multiple ids generally undefined? |
| 19:07 | <annevk> | it doesn't define it in terms of getElementById() |
| 19:08 | <zcorpan> | i'll look closer at the <map> spec then |
| 19:18 | <zcorpan> | html5-elements updated |
| 19:26 | <zcorpan> | the ids not being permanent is annoying. it should be possible to link to a part of the spec and assume that it will point to the same thing so long as the spec doesn't change other than editorially... why aren't the title=""s used as ids (perhaps with spaces replaced with dashes or something)? |
| 19:27 | <zcorpan> | it's not only about my list of elements -- people link to a part of the spec when discussing |
| 19:29 | <zcorpan> | (minor but still annoying ;) ) |
| 20:45 | <othermaciej> | hi everyone |
| 20:45 | <hsivonen> | hi |
| 21:58 | <Hixie> | so can someone explain the use case for this "data attribute" idea? |
| 22:00 | <Dashiva> | declarative approach to data |
| 22:00 | <Dashiva> | Some pre-wf2 scripts had homebrew attributes for required, type, etc |
| 22:01 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: the idea is that a Web app wants to annotate a DOM node with app-specific data *and* send the in the serialization so that custom properties on the JS-level don't work |
| 22:02 | <hsivonen> | IIRC, PPK has an ALA article with a concrete case |
| 22:03 | <Hixie> | and "class" doesn't work for this because the data isn't boolean? |
| 22:03 | <Hixie> | or? |
| 22:04 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: hmm. his use cases are boolean... |
| 22:04 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: http://alistapart.com/articles/scripttriggers/ |
| 22:05 | <Hixie> | well then |
| 22:05 | <Hixie> | use the class attribute |
| 22:05 | <Hixie> | moving on... |
| 22:05 | <hasather> | hmm, anyone else gets 403's on ALA. I've had it for severla months. Not that I care much, but it's weird |
| 22:06 | <Dashiva> | Not all booleans, no |
| 22:07 | <Dashiva> | He uses key=value to hack around it, e.g. class="large required maxlength=300" |
| 22:07 | <othermaciej> | Hixie, hsivonen: sounds like some of the cases aren't boolean |
| 22:08 | <Hixie> | ah ok |
| 22:08 | <Hixie> | well then we'll have to investigate |
| 22:11 | <Philip`> | I used a non-boolean data attribute some time ago, with a list of things somewhat like <a title="text for a tooltip/popup message" _formatted="alternative HTML-formatted text" onmouseover="scripted_tooltip_window(this)">Short uninteresting link text</a>, so it would have sensible non-JS (and non-CSS) fallback but the script could make use of more interesting data to display in its non-standard tooltip-like-thing, without having to store all that data a |
| 22:11 | <Philip`> | ... a long way away |
| 22:14 | <Philip`> | (I can probably think of better non-nonstandard ways of doing that now, but they'd seem more convoluted than just sticking an extra attribute on the element, and I couldn't think of anything better back then) |
| 22:16 | <met_> | sounds like in XUL, no restrictions in new and new attributes |
| 22:17 | <Dashiva> | Well, it's a significant step from one script data attribute to allowing arbitrary attributes with a "local" type prefix |
| 22:20 | <met_> | prefix? |
| 22:20 | <met_> | the underscore? |
| 22:24 | <Philip`> | If there's only one script data attribute, perhaps people would start doing <textarea scriptdata="maxlength=300"> (which is much clearer than scriptdata="300") or <textarea scriptdata='{"maxlength":300,"minlength":100}'>, and make their own custom parsers, which seems kind of pointless when you've already got an HTML parser that could do all the work for you |
| 22:25 | <moeffju> | use $ as a prefix? |
| 22:26 | <moeffju> | <foo $data="whee" $more="hurray"> |
| 22:30 | <met_> | is $ valid in attribute name? |
| 22:30 | <hsivonen> | met_: in xml, no |
| 22:30 | <met_> | this is what i mean |
| 22:31 | <Philip`> | I think I have a mild natural distaste for using $ but that's probably just because I'm too used to Perl and code like |print qq{<foo \$data="$data">}| is not especially beautiful, which isn't a particularly valid concern... |
| 22:33 | <Philip`> | Are people trying to make HTML5 and XHTML5 as equivalently powerful as possible, and trying to minimise the exceptions like <p><ul/></p>? |
| 22:35 | <Philip`> | (If so, presumably that would rule out $ (if it's not allowed in XML) and : (if it'd mean you couldn't do a lossless HTML5->XHTML5 conversion of <div foo:bar=x>)) |
| 22:39 | <moeffju> | which brings us back to underscore |
| 22:44 | <deltab> | $ would likely interfere with some templating systems |
| 22:59 | <Hixie> | hm |
| 23:00 | <Hixie> | .defaultPlaybackRate and .playbackRate |
| 23:34 | <Hixie> | should we have people do video.playbackRate = video.defaultPlaybackRate, or should we have a video.resetPlaybackRate() that does that? |
| 23:34 | <Hixie> | or should .play() do it? |
| 23:36 | <moeffju> | playbackRate should init to defaultPlaybackRate, and if people want to reset it, an assignment is fine, IMO |
| 23:37 | <moeffju> | play() should not automatically do it though |
| 23:40 | <Dashiva> | Is the playbackrate linked to being in a playing state? |
| 23:40 | <Dashiva> | i.e. is it 0 when paused? |
| 23:42 | <Hixie> | no |
| 23:43 | <Dashiva> | Then I see no reason play() should change the playbackrate. And having a reset() just to save an assignment seems a bit redundant |
| 23:44 | <Hixie> | so .defaultPlaybacRate is basically a mutable attribute with no effect, then, and just needed to note what to set the rate back to after ffwding |
| 23:46 | <Dashiva> | I'd liken it to defaultValue, defaultChecked, etc in forms. It's used for the user to restore defaults |
| 23:47 | <nickshanks> | is there a published default stylesheet for braile media? specifically I want to know which elements display without contraction by default |
