| 00:11 | KevinMarks | reads scrollback |
| 00:11 | <KevinMarks> | why is scriptdata not just <script> and declare some variables? |
| 00:12 | <Dashiva> | Because it's linked to specific elements |
| 00:12 | <othermaciej> | KevinMarks: the idea is to attach information to an element in the markup |
| 00:12 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: any opinion on the default rate thing? |
| 00:12 | <othermaciej> | you want it as hooks on specific elements for script to attach |
| 00:12 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: have not had a chance to read yet, and in meeting at the moment |
| 00:12 | <Hixie> | k |
| 00:16 | <KevinMarks> | ah, so a replacement for the 'add piles of arbitrary attributes with ugly prefixes' model that certain js toolkits use? |
| 00:17 | <KevinMarks> | *cough* dojo *cough* |
| 00:17 | <Dashiva> | Yeah, among other things :) |
| 00:40 | <deltab> | some reliable way of referring to the current script element would be useful |
| 05:59 | <Hixie> | Lachy_: for jabber, i recommend bitlbee |
| 06:00 | <Lachy_> | ok, I'm looking it up |
| 06:08 | <Lachy_> | hmm. Could I have bitlbee running on my computer at home and then just connect to it with any IRC client, anywhere? |
| 06:20 | <Hixie> | i assume so |
| 06:20 | <Hixie> | i have someone run it for me on the server i run irssi on |
| 06:21 | <Hixie> | and so irssi is always connected to it |
| 06:21 | <Hixie> | so i'm always on jabber (and aim and msn and icq) as well as being always on irc |
| 06:21 | <gavin_> | interesting |
| 06:21 | <Hixie> | and since twitter uses jabber, i'm always on twitter too |
| 06:21 | <Hixie> | and since it all runs under screen, i can connect to it multiple times from as many machines as i like |
| 06:22 | <Hixie> | without affecting my irc connections |
| 06:23 | <gavin_> | I don't really mind only being on aim/msn/jabber when I'm actually at my computer |
| 06:23 | <gavin_> | IRC is different, since I keep up with other people's discussions so I always need to be conected |
| 06:24 | <Lachy_> | awesome! There are public servers I could connect to, so I don't have to set it up myself |
| 06:24 | <gavin_> | do you trust those public servers with all your IM/IRC traffic? :) |
| 06:31 | <dolphinling_> | So is it just me, or does perl's CGI module not even understand that html 4 exists? |
| 06:31 | <dolphinling_> | In the dtd handling, it checks for html 2.0 and html 3.2 and knows not to put an xmlns attribute in, but it doesn't check for html 4. |
| 06:36 | <Hixie> | wow |
| 06:36 | <Hixie> | check out the ocmments on http://ajaxian.com/archives/proposal-for-the-w3c-to-adopt-html-5 |
| 06:36 | <Hixie> | that's the only place i've seen negative comments, and irrational ones at that |
| 06:36 | <Hixie> | weird |
| 06:38 | <gavin_> | "The so called "HTM 5" is a rip off from all the community work on HTML" |
| 06:39 | <gavin_> | nice |
| 06:40 | <Hixie> | they get even weirder near the end |
| 06:41 | <gavin_> | indeed, just finished reading |
| 06:42 | <gavin_> | I'm not really sure how someone can end up reaching the last commenter's conclusions |
| 06:45 | <Lachy_> | ha! "... coupled with asshole personalities with big ego like Ian Hickson ..." :-) |
| 06:45 | <Hixie> | hey maciej, check this out: http://ajaxian.com/archives/proposal-for-the-w3c-to-adopt-html-5 |
| 06:45 | <Hixie> | the comments, specifically |
| 06:45 | <Hixie> | btw the really really funny thing about this post is that the guy who posted it is on my team at work |
| 06:46 | othermaciej | clicks the link |
| 06:54 | Lachy_ | is confused by those comments |
| 06:55 | <Lachy_> | They're happy that the W3C has formed the HTMLWG and that they will be working on HTML, but seem to object to the work we did on HTML |
| 06:56 | <Lachy_> | it seems to be just because it doesn't come with a nice, shiny W3C logo at the top |
| 06:57 | <Lachy_> | I bet that as soon as the HTMLWG accepts HTML5 and begins work on it, all those people who object to the WHATWG will suddendly applaud the W3C for doing such great work |
| 06:59 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: nice - although I kinda hope my marketing people don't see it and yell at me for getting embroiled in controversy; gonna read comments now |
| 07:01 | <Lachy_> | "Just to point out that web forms 2.0 has been reviewed by some W3C working goups already and rejected." -- which groups rejected it? AIUI, the XForms folks just want to take it and destroy it for themselves, not reject it |
| 07:02 | <othermaciej> | I'm curious who Mitch Niel is |
| 07:02 | <othermaciej> | Lachy_: I think it was once submitted as a Member Submission and rejected for standards track, before the WAF WG later picked it up |
| 07:03 | <othermaciej> | hah, I love the comment that blames WHATWG for reinventing things needlessly, and then cites SVG and XForms |
| 07:05 | <othermaciej> | those comments seem suspiciously pro-W3C and pro-Microsoft |
| 07:06 | <othermaciej> | hmm, Mark Arrington uses techcrunch as his URL, perhaps hoping people will mistake him for Mike Arrington |
| 07:11 | <othermaciej> | I commented, perhaps foolishly |
| 07:15 | <Hixie> | so did i |
| 07:16 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: it wasn't ever rejected for standards track, the submission wasn't intended for standards track |
| 07:16 | <Hixie> | wonder who this Mike Arrington guy is |
| 07:16 | <Hixie> | Mark Arrington even |
| 07:17 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: everyone knows who Mike Arrington is, given the misleading URL, I'd guess Mark Arrington is a pseudonym |
| 07:23 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: your comment is funny. "Hey! It's not just an Opera conspiracy! We're part of it too!" |
| 07:25 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: yeah, I didn't want Opera to get all the credit |
| 07:42 | <tylerr> | it |
| 09:56 | <othermaciej> | I'm surprised <http://www.digital-web.com/articles/html5_xhtml2_and_the_future_of_the_web/>; didn't discuss HTML WG and the possibility of it adopting HTML5 more prominently |
| 10:12 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej - the "W3C and HTML" section seems to do a pretty good job of making it clear.. or I guess you just mean that section should be somewhere else in the document? |
| 10:12 | <othermaciej> | the earlier parts of the document make it sound like a W3C vs. WHATWG battle |
| 12:35 | <SimonW> | Hello all... quick question |
| 12:36 | <SimonW> | is the plan with HTML 5 still to get it working on legacy browsers using scripting? |
| 12:42 | <met_> | SimonW, there are some projects http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Implementations_in_Web_browsers |
| 12:42 | <met_> | SimonW, eg http://sourceforge.net/projects/wf2/ |
| 12:43 | <SimonW> | do you know if it's still an official stated aim? I remember when What WG started a few years ago they got Dean Edwards on board for exactly that |
| 12:43 | <SimonW> | thanks for the links |
| 12:44 | <SimonW> | it looks like the wf2 codebase hasn't been touched in 19 months |
| 12:45 | <hsivonen> | SimonW: in particular, making WF 2.0 work in IE6 using as script library was part of the design |
| 12:46 | <SimonW> | thanks - I'm putting a talk together for this evening, so I might throw a few more questions around later if that's OK |
| 12:46 | <hsivonen> | SimonW: to me, it seems that it is less of a design requirement for the rest of HTML5. |
| 12:46 | <hsivonen> | SimonW: however, you should recheck when Hixie is around |
| 12:46 | <SimonW> | oh - one other thing, is it fair to say that What WG was created partly in response to the <canvas> element? |
| 12:46 | <SimonW> | or was that just coincidental? |
| 12:47 | <hsivonen> | SimonW: my understanding is that Apple created <canvas> and the WHATWG were formed independently and when Mozilla and Opera showed interest in <canvas>, Apple contributed the spec |
| 12:48 | <hsivonen> | (all the recheck when Hixie is around disclaimers apply) |
| 12:48 | <SimonW> | I'll do that, thanks |
| 12:49 | <SimonW> | last thing for the moment: where did the name "HTML 5" come from? Is it just a nickname for the combination of WF2 and WA1? |
| 12:51 | <hsivonen> | SimonW: it is a nickname and HTML5 comes after HTML 4 |
| 12:51 | <hsivonen> | SimonW: DOM5, XML5, SVG5, etc. are joke names that have the same "5" pattern |
| 12:51 | <met_> | HTML5 is also more comprehensive than WF2 and other |
| 12:52 | <hsivonen> | (and they are hypothetics that pop up on IRC every now and then) |
| 12:52 | <SimonW> | So a good answer to the question "What is HTML 5?" is "It's the nickname for a set of specifications that originated with the WHATWG" ? |
| 12:52 | <hsivonen> | SimonW: nickname for Web Apps 1.0 plus Web Form 2.0 |
| 12:53 | <hsivonen> | afk |
| 12:53 | <SimonW> | Web Controls 1.0 too? |
| 12:56 | <hsivonen> | SimonW: no, Web Controls 1.0 is vaporware is practice at this point |
| 12:56 | <SimonW> | OK |
| 13:54 | <SimonW> | How does the existence of the new HTML Working Group affect the activity around WHATWG? |
| 13:55 | <virtuelv> | SimonW: does it? in what sense? |
| 13:56 | <SimonW> | I don't know, that's why I'm asking :) |
| 13:57 | <gsnedders> | in what way do you mean activity? the number of people on the mailing lists? |
| 13:57 | <SimonW> | no, the actual work done by WHATWG |
| 13:57 | <SimonW> | will a lot of it move over to HTML WG, or will it still be developed separately and suggested over there once it's matured a bit? |
| 13:57 | <SimonW> | especially since the HTML 5 has been offered to HTML WG as a starting point |
| 13:58 | <gsnedders> | whether it moves over to the HTML WG is up to the HTML WG. |
| 13:58 | <virtuelv> | Personally, I think there is room for both |
| 13:58 | <SimonW> | (I'm asking as a relative outsider to WHATWG) |
| 13:58 | <virtuelv> | whatwg has been a useful testing ground |
| 13:58 | <gsnedders> | if Hixie is editor of both, they will both continue, and be generated from the same document |
| 13:59 | <met_> | SimonW, it is maybe on opposite way, WHATWG affects HTML WG, it depends on results of this proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Apr/0429.html |
| 13:59 | <gsnedders> | if the HTML WG starts from somewhere else, WHATWG's specs will remain at most a superset, and compatible |
| 13:59 | <gsnedders> | (unless of course the HTML WG loses it and goes away from developing something backwards compatible and therefore isn't relevant) |
| 14:00 | <gsnedders> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Apr/0025.html |
| 14:00 | <gsnedders> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007JanMar/0052.html |
| 14:01 | <gsnedders> | that really answers the question |
| 14:01 | <gsnedders> | s/that/those |
| 14:01 | <SimonW> | thanks |
| 14:01 | <SimonW> | so basically, the answer to my question is pretty up in the air |
| 14:02 | <SimonW> | but it should all shake out in the next month or so |
| 14:02 | <gsnedders> | quicker than that, I expect |
| 14:02 | <SimonW> | "Therefore, as a safety net, if you will, the WHATWG |
| 14:02 | <SimonW> | specs will continue to be developed for the time being." |
| 14:07 | <SimonW> | Was XHTML 2 being developed on a non-public mailing list? |
| 14:13 | <gsnedders> | IIRC www-html, a public list, was the HTML WG's mailing list, till the XHTML2 and HTML WG were re-chartered |
| 14:13 | <gsnedders> | public-xhtml2 is now the XHTML2 WG's list |
| 14:16 | <Lachy> | SimonW, XHTML2 was being developed behind closed doors on member-html-wg |
| 14:17 | <SimonW> | but all development on the new HTML WG is in public? |
| 14:17 | <Lachy> | yes |
| 14:17 | <SimonW> | thanks |
| 14:18 | <Lachy> | XHTML2 should also be moving entirely to the public list soon, but there still appears to be some activity on the member list |
| 14:18 | <gsnedders> | www-html was therefore only for public suggestions? |
| 14:18 | <Lachy> | actually, w3c-html-wg and w3c-html-cg were the member lists |
| 14:18 | gsnedders | almost completely ignored the HTML WG before the re-chartering |
| 17:39 | <annevk> | <script async> and <script defer> are mutually exclusive right? |
| 18:37 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: you validator doesn't complain about <base> not being first (ignoring <meta charset>), it seems |
| 18:38 | <zcorpan> | (<head>'s content model doesn't agree with <meta>'s or <base>'s definition of where they are allowed, though) |
| 18:59 | <annevk> | "I have to say, some of the article is questionable at best, laughable at worst. I'm sorry but to try and introduce a standard called WA1 for web applications is just plain silly. We already have standards laid out in xhtml and dom so why add another level of obfustication around both of them and give it an almost identical name as the accessibility specification WAI simply shows a lack of knowledge of the client side." |
| 19:00 | <annevk> | from http://www.digital-web.com/articles/html5_xhtml2_and_the_future_of_the_web/comments/ |
| 19:02 | <jdandrea> | ... and Ric's point ... is ... |
| 19:02 | <annevk> | that we need a new name supposedly |
| 19:02 | <jdandrea> | :) |
| 19:02 | <annevk> | hopefully we can rename it HTML 5 or HTML5 in a few weeks |
| 19:04 | <kingryan> | and hopefull the html-wg will adopt it |
| 19:04 | <kingryan> | hopefully* |
| 19:04 | <annevk> | well, that would be required :) |
| 19:05 | <kingryan> | from the above article: "HTML 4.01 may be a good, stable ground for developers to stand on..." |
| 19:05 | <kingryan> | I don't really understand that. HTML4 as a spec isn't that useful, it's only the semi-interoperable implementations that are stable |
| 19:06 | <zcorpan> | perhaps it's useful for authors |
| 19:06 | <zcorpan> | although not really either, you can get 10 interprentations of how to correctly use <h1>-<h6> for instance |
| 19:07 | <zcorpan> | and it contradicts itself on some things |
| 19:07 | <annevk> | I doubt typical authors look up HTML4 at all |
| 19:07 | <zcorpan> | they don't |
| 19:08 | <zcorpan> | typical author doesn't even use a validator |
| 19:08 | <kingryan> | zcorpan: it may be useful for authors, but it's not sufficient |
| 19:08 | <zcorpan> | kingryan: indeed |
| 19:08 | <zcorpan> | i didn't say it was a good spec |
| 19:09 | <kingryan> | for me, html4 is only useful for supporting material when I have to make arguments supporting microformats against those who're more pedantic than I am :D |
| 19:17 | <annevk> | Philip` just mentioned the following in #html-wg: http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/wa1/index.xhtml |
| 19:18 | <annevk> | He wrote a script in Python (not completely done yet I believe) that generates individual pages from the HTML5 proposal and keeps the cross references working |
| 19:58 | <zcorpan> | http://simon.html5.org/temp/duke3d%202007-04-11%2020-56-58-93.mpeg |
| 20:02 | zcorpan | has completed all 4 episodes at damn i'm good :D |
| 20:13 | <annevk2> | KevinMarks, is your proposal to give each element a datastore? |
| 20:13 | annevk2 | kind of likes that idea |
| 20:17 | <annevk> | Philip`, get an account from Hixie on http://code.google.com/p/html5/ and put the code there |
| 20:22 | <Lachy_> | http://blog.jclark.com/2007/04/validation-not-necessarily-harmful.html |
| 20:23 | <Lachy_> | the first half of that is quite good, but then he reaches a conclusion that doesn't quite follow |
| 20:23 | <annevk> | i suppose you can do validation for non-complicated languages |
| 20:53 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: base placement should be fixed now. thanks. |
| 20:53 | <a-ja> | hi all...don't know if this is a w3c validator or xhtml5 conformance checker issue...basically, for w3c mobile doctypes the w3c validator chokes on xml:base whereas xhtml5 checker chokes on html base href=. |
| 20:53 | <hsivonen> | a-ja: base href= is non-conforming in XHTML5 |
| 20:54 | <hsivonen> | (conforming in HTML5) |
| 20:54 | <annevk> | currently non-conforming* |
| 20:54 | <hsivonen> | annevk: well, everything in HTML5 is currently |
| 20:55 | <a-ja> | apparently mobile doctypes require xhtml but not xml:base...so shouldn't conformance checker issue warning rather than an error? |
| 20:55 | <annevk> | well, I raised an issue about this one :) |
| 20:56 | a-ja | has no idea what old mobile devices actually implement |
| 20:56 | <annevk> | HTML most likely |
| 20:56 | <annevk> | certainly no xml:base fancyness |
| 20:56 | <gsnedders> | a-ja: xml:base is invalid under XHTML Mobile because the DTD doesn't allow it, and is a normative part of the standard |
| 20:57 | <a-ja> | that's the impression i get, too, annevk |
| 20:58 | <hsivonen> | a-ja: mobile profiles are not supported by the HTML5 conformance checker (unless you bring your own schema and use the generic facet) |
| 20:59 | <a-ja> | so, basically the call at this point is that there's not enuff existant mobile content to be a major concern? |
| 20:59 | a-ja | is only asking in the spirit of "don't break the web"...not arguing that mobile doctypes aren't brain-dead |
| 21:00 | <hsivonen> | a-ja: I think mobile profiles are a mistake, so I am not focusing my effort on them. Instead, I am focusing on (X)HTML5 and I intend to revise the XHTML 1.x schemas sometime in more or less distant future. |
| 21:00 | <hsivonen> | a-ja: Mobile walled gardens aren't really part of the Web that we are concerned about not breaking |
| 21:01 | <a-ja> | hsivonen: gotcha...bigger fish to fry |
| 21:03 | <hsivonen> | a-ja: also, document conformance requirements are allowed to make existing practices non-conforming without being considered breaking the Web. Browser behavior could break the Web. |
| 21:03 | <Philip`> | http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/wa1/specsplit.py and http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/wa1/toxhtml5.py (please forgive/fix any ugliness and tabs) are what's generating http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/wa1/ |
| 21:04 | <Philip`> | (Maybe you could combine those scripts, but the html5lib minidom implementation seems incompatible with the normal XML one) |
| 21:04 | <annevk> | nice (the output) |
| 21:08 | <a-ja> | hsivonen: so the handling of xml:base and base href= in xhtml documents by UA's belongs in wa1 spec, rather than conformance checker, eh? |
| 21:08 | <KevinMarks> | annevk: catching up - what Sam + Mark did for RSS validation is an interesting approach |
| 21:13 | <a-ja> | hsivonen: or just plain ignored in spec for walled garden reasons? |
| 21:14 | a-ja | is abandoning all hope of making sites both html5 and mobileOK conformant :) |
| 21:14 | <hober> | it amuses me greatly that specifically this blog post YSODs in Firefox: http://tom.opiumfield.com/blog/2007/04/11#When:08:50:10 |
| 21:14 | <zcorpan> | mobileOK is bogus |
| 21:17 | <hsivonen> | a-ja: the conformance checker, at the moment, only checks if xml:base or base href= are allowed at a given spot |
| 21:17 | <annevk> | mobile is bogus |
| 21:17 | <annevk> | oh wait |
| 21:17 | <a-ja> | zcorpan: true enough...was gonna be majorly difficult to get pages under it's size limits in any event. |
| 21:18 | <hsivonen> | a-ja: currently, no conformance requirement check requires URI dereferencing, so the conformance checker doesn't actully implement base URI-based URI resolution |
| 21:18 | <KevinMarks> | annevk: re private data store - not sure if that is a workable model, I was just thinking of keeping the script in <script> and setting up a way to associate with the element. I'll defer to you browser implementers about how to do it well |
| 21:19 | <hsivonen> | a-ja: well, in general, WHATWG specs are about *the* Web, which you may browser using Minimo, the S60 WebKit-based browser, Opera or Opera Mini (or any emerging serious mobile browser) on a mobile device |
| 21:19 | annevk | likes the .param approach |
| 21:19 | <KevinMarks> | I can see an advantage in having a datablob that can be shared between multiple elements that way |
| 21:19 | <hsivonen> | s/may browser/may browse/ |
| 21:19 | <annevk> | except that I'm not sure if you want to type JSON into an attribute value |
| 21:20 | <hsivonen> | annevk: I'd say it is up to scripts to run eval() on JSON if they want to put JSON there, but we shouldn't require JSON as the private data |
| 21:20 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: you could perhaps include the trailing <script> on all pages, to get the status annotations |
| 21:20 | <annevk> | KevinMarks, the problem with your proposal is that authors have to both set up the attribute and set some default values in a <script> element somewhere |
| 21:21 | <hsivonen> | KevinMarks: btw, the HTML5 conformance checker technology preview uses a hybrid model that involves both schemas and Feed Validator -like SAX handlers |
| 21:21 | <annevk> | KevinMarks, one of the use cases is (i think) that an author sets some attributes with values and an external script implements the functionality on top of them (not controlled by the author) |
| 21:23 | <KevinMarks> | Right, thats the technique I call 'javascript decorators' - where you have some semantic HTML and a classname that the js looks for to interpret it in a new way. That gives nice fallback behaviour. |
| 21:23 | <annevk> | class only address booleans |
| 21:24 | <annevk> | the discussion ensued to find a way to address the non-boolean issues |
| 21:24 | <KevinMarks> | no, classes can mark out content for further manipulation |
| 21:24 | <KevinMarks> | eg hCard |
| 21:24 | <KevinMarks> | you have a containing class="vcard" and then classes on the other elements to mark up the data |
| 21:25 | <KevinMarks> | that way you have DRY built-in |
| 21:25 | <annevk> | <input class="maxlength=300"> was one example |
| 21:25 | <annevk> | (arguably that's better solved in another way now, but I think that's besides the point) |
| 21:25 | <KevinMarks> | the only issue is when you want some extra non-human-readable data |
| 21:26 | <Philip`> | zcorpan: Ah, I missed that - adding it now |
| 21:27 | <jgraham> | Philip`: What's the problem that requires the serializer in a different file? |
| 21:30 | <Philip`> | jgraham: It's mostly because html5lib takes ages to parse the spec, so it's quicker (during development) to just convert it to XML once and then I can repeatedly re-parse it later quickly |
| 21:31 | <Philip`> | During non-development that doesn't matter since people won't run the second script more than once, but if I use the html5lib minidom then it throws some exception when I try calling cloneNode |
| 21:31 | <jgraham> | Oh I see. So it's not a problem with html5lib (other than perf.)? |
| 21:32 | <KevinMarks> | annevk: here's something I wrote before: http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-October/006820.html |
| 21:32 | <jgraham> | Oh. Can you file the exception as a bug when you have a moment |
| 21:32 | <annevk> | I need some free weeks to implement this stuff in C |
| 21:32 | <KevinMarks> | which came out of here: http://burningbird.net/learning-javascript/ajax-myth-busting/ |
| 21:32 | <jgraham> | (the functionality in the script is very cool fwiw) |
| 21:33 | <annevk> | Philip`, could you "AddType text/plain .py"? |
| 21:35 | <annevk> | KevinMarks, interesting |
| 21:36 | <annevk> | KevinMarks, unfortunately I'm not that into mf |
| 21:37 | <annevk> | actually, I get it, nm |
| 21:37 | <Philip`> | jgraham: Okay, I'll try to find where the problem is and report it |
| 21:37 | <KevinMarks> | the basic need is having variables for script access, so having them in <script> makes sense |
| 21:37 | <Philip`> | annevk: Added, I think |
| 21:40 | <annevk> | cheers |
| 21:40 | <Philip`> | jgraham: Oh, just realised it's because I'm calling doc.cloneNode(True) where doc is the root object returned by the parser |
| 21:41 | <annevk> | KevinMarks, I don't think it's the most convenient for authors though |
| 21:41 | <Philip`> | (which seems to be a legitimate thing to do, I hope) |
| 21:42 | <annevk> | it would be pretty awesome if HTML5 was generated with tools it defines itself |
| 21:43 | <Philip`> | ...and only when the document in doc has a doctype - so maybe that's what it can't clone |
| 21:44 | <KevinMarks> | putting JSON in attributes is much less convenient; at least by keeping it in script you have a decent chance of validating it, and being more readily backwards compatible |
| 21:44 | jdandrea | beams at the prospect of HTML5 generated w/self-defined tools |
| 21:45 | <annevk> | KevinMarks, I don't think your approach is more backwards compatible than the JSON in attribute value approach... |
| 21:45 | <annevk> | KevinMarks, but I agree that JSON in an attribute value is not very nice |
| 21:46 | <KevinMarks> | I think both that and the 'just add a big pile of our own attributes' approach that say, dojo, uses are both dodgy |
| 21:46 | <Philip`> | annevk: One problem with that approach is that it'll discourage changes to the HTML5 spec when those changes will break the tools that are used to write the spec :-) |
| 21:47 | <jdandrea> | Philip: Hmm. Didn't it work for C compilers though? "There's got to be a better way!" |
| 21:47 | <KevinMarks> | sounds like pypy |
| 21:48 | <jdandrea> | Ahh - http://codespeak.net/pypy/ |
| 21:50 | <Philip`> | jgraham: http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/issues/detail?id=33 should be it |
| 21:50 | <jgraham> | Thnaks! |
| 21:57 | <Philip`> | Hmm, the annotation script doesn't work because it loads annotate-data.xml relative to the document, but that file doesn't exist relative to my version of the document |
| 21:58 | annevk | doesn't think the annotation is currently very useful |
| 21:59 | <jgraham> | Philip`: I don't see that exception here. Do you see something similar with: |
| 21:59 | <jgraham> | from xml.dom import minidom |
| 21:59 | <jgraham> | d = minidom.parseString("<body></body>") |
| 22:00 | <jgraham> | d.cloneNode(True) |
| 22:00 | <Philip`> | (Easy solution to annotation problem: just upload annotate-data.xml to my site, and don't forget to update it in the future) |
| 22:01 | <Philip`> | jgraham: That code works correctly with no exception |
| 22:01 | <annevk> | (in the future the whole thing should be in Hixie's publishing toolchain) |
| 22:01 | <Philip`> | (I'm using Python 2.5, in case that matters) |
| 22:03 | <jgraham> | Hmm. I tried 2.5 and 2.4 but didn't get an exception in either case. Can you just confirm what type of object doc is bound to in your example (i.e. what type of object are you getting from parser.parse('<!DOCTYPE HTML>')) |
| 22:04 | <Philip`> | parser.parse returns <xml.dom.minidom.Document instance at 0x00C71A08> |
| 22:05 | <Philip`> | (Also, this is with the 0.9 release download, rather than the latest from SVN) |
| 22:05 | <annevk> | oh, we usually fix the bugs after the release :) |
| 22:06 | <jgraham> | annevk: I can't see we'd have touched anything that affected DOM though. |
| 22:17 | <gsnedders> | ergh. more XHTML2 4ever people on fora :\ |
| 22:17 | <othermaciej> | we really should make T-shirts that say "5 > 2" |
| 22:17 | <gsnedders> | totally. |
| 22:18 | <annevk> | lol |
| 22:18 | <gsnedders> | and put no mention of (X)HTML on them, so they aren't overly geeky |
| 22:18 | <gsnedders> | well, obviously geeky |
| 22:18 | <annevk> | 5 > 2 is pretty geeky |
| 22:19 | zcorpan | wants such a t-shirt |
| 22:19 | <gsnedders> | but not obviously |
| 22:19 | <gsnedders> | to someone who doesn't know what it's about, it isn't. |
| 22:19 | <gsnedders> | to those who know, very. |
| 22:19 | <gsnedders> | discreetness is nice, though :) |
| 22:19 | <othermaciej> | I will try to get some art made and set up a Cafe Press store or something |
| 22:20 | Lachy_ | will buy one :-) |
| 22:20 | jdandrea | will buy two. I mean five. :) |
| 22:21 | <hober> | or goodstorm.com -- their shirts seem higher quality than cafepress |
| 22:21 | <Lachy> | 5 > 2.0 |
| 22:21 | <jdandrea> | Lachy: Better yet! |
| 22:21 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: but > doesn't need to be escaped! |
| 22:21 | <gsnedders> | why waste the bandwidth! |
| 22:21 | <gsnedders> | :P |
| 22:21 | <othermaciej> | Lachy: that's a little *too* geeky |
| 22:21 | <jdandrea> | 2 < 5 |
| 22:21 | <jdandrea> | hehe |
| 22:21 | <gsnedders> | s/bandwidth/chest-width |
| 22:21 | <gsnedders> | :) |
| 22:21 | <gsnedders> | but yeah, that's too geeky. |
| 22:21 | <othermaciej> | hmmm |
| 22:21 | <gsnedders> | it needs to be discreet. |
| 22:22 | <othermaciej> | if we really want high quality, there's at least one place that makes their shirts based on American Apparel t-shirts |
| 22:22 | <othermaciej> | but I forget the name |
| 22:22 | <zcorpan> | "5 < 2.0" is nice |
| 22:22 | <jdandrea> | 5 is the new 2? Hmm ... |
| 22:22 | <zcorpan> | er |
| 22:22 | <zcorpan> | "5 > 2.0" |
| 22:22 | gsnedders | can't imagine what people would think at school if it were obviously geeky |
| 22:23 | <gsnedders> | plenty people know I can touch type, but don't know to what extent I have to do with the web |
| 22:24 | <gsnedders> | how about… mmm… "Web 5.0" |
| 22:24 | <gsnedders> | :P |
| 22:24 | <KevinMarks> | 5 > 2.0 is fun especially if we have them for next week |
| 22:24 | <othermaciej> | I like the minimal "5 > 2" |
| 22:24 | <othermaciej> | it's vague enough to be a little mysterious, even if you get it |
| 22:25 | <othermaciej> | what font should I use? |
| 22:25 | <othermaciej> | I am thinking it should be a font that is widely used on the web |
| 22:25 | <othermaciej> | but Times New Roman is kinda assy |
| 22:25 | <deltab> | Verdana? |
| 22:25 | <Lachy> | courier new |
| 22:25 | <KevinMarks> | all the 'web' fonts are |
| 22:25 | <hasather> | Monaco? |
| 22:25 | <gsnedders> | Helvetica? |
| 22:25 | <KevinMarks> | 'cos they were done by MS on the cheap |
| 22:25 | <hober> | helfuckingvetica :) |
| 22:25 | <gsnedders> | Lucida Grande? |
| 22:25 | <Lachy> | comic sans ms |
| 22:26 | <zcorpan> | sans-serif |
| 22:26 | <KevinMarks> | Zapfino |
| 22:26 | <othermaciej> | Helvetica is probably the prettiest choice there |
| 22:26 | zcorpan | hides |
| 22:26 | jgraham | sees much of the web in Bitstream Vera |
| 22:26 | <jdandrea> | Zapf Dingbats. Let 'em decode it. hehe |
| 22:26 | <gsnedders> | othermaciej: and its common enough |
| 22:26 | <annevk> | comic sans ms +1 |
| 22:26 | <gsnedders> | but comic sans… |
| 22:26 | <annevk> | although maybe we should have a pretty font for a pretty t-shirt... |
| 22:26 | <KevinMarks> | I set safari to Hoefler for serif and Gill Sans of sans |
| 22:26 | <gsnedders> | I'm not sure I could cope wearing comic sans… |
| 22:27 | <zcorpan> | georgia |
| 22:27 | <jdandrea> | Gill Sans is nice. |
| 22:27 | <gsnedders> | KevinMarks: how do you set serif and sans-serif seperatly? |
| 22:27 | <annevk> | Arial |
| 22:28 | <annevk> | I'm with Helvetica I think |
| 22:28 | <KevinMarks> | hm, maciej, did you hide the pref? |
| 22:28 | <KevinMarks> | I think it's still in the plist |
| 22:28 | <gsnedders> | com.apple.saf? |
| 22:29 | <gsnedders> | all I see is WebKitFixedFont and WebKitStandardFont |
| 22:29 | <othermaciej> | KevinMarks: it's only had prefs for standard and fixed-width font for some time |
| 22:29 | <KevinMarks> | dang, its gone |
| 22:32 | <gsnedders> | othermaciej: what's the default for sans-serif? Lucida Grande? |
| 22:32 | <jdandrea> | Helvetica's tried and true too. I could go for that. http://www.fonts.com/findfonts/mondosearchresults.htm?st=12&kid=Helvetica |
| 22:32 | <othermaciej> | gsnedders: probably Helvetica |
| 22:33 | <gsnedders> | othermaciej: one of the system fonts, I assume? |
| 22:34 | <KevinMarks> | Hoefler has non-lining numbers, which always looks cool imo |
| 22:34 | <othermaciej> | a lot of the commenters on <http://ajaxian.com/archives/proposal-for-the-w3c-to-adopt-html-5>; must *clearly* be trolling |
| 22:37 | Lachy | wonders if the comment from Bill Gates is really him |
| 22:37 | <Hixie> | yeah i'm ignoring the comments after the last one i posted |
| 22:37 | <Hixie> | they're all just trolling or not interested in being informed |
| 22:38 | <Lachy> | it's clearly a troll, based on what he said |
| 22:38 | jdandrea | reads Hixie's comment (good response) |
| 22:38 | <gsnedders> | "Mozilla, Opera, and Apple should decrease the tolerance for invalid markup in their browsers" - is that even sane? :P |
| 22:39 | <annevk> | those people have no idea what they're talking about |
| 22:40 | <annevk> | most of them anyway |
| 22:40 | <Lachy> | good morning Hixie |
| 22:40 | <Hixie> | hi |
| 22:40 | <gsnedders> | http://codingforums.com/showpost.php?p=556210&postcount=26 – that's the forum post I was referring to earlier |
| 22:41 | <gsnedders> | maybe I should point him at liorean's article, as he is actually a supermoderator on that forum :P |
| 22:41 | <gsnedders> | it _used_ to be a very good intelligent forum |
| 22:42 | <Philip`> | Browsers won't want to do anything that makes the experience worse for users just because they're visiting invalid pages - but that shouldn't stop the browsers from searching the page for a webmaster email address and then sending anonymous hate mail to the author telling them to fix their markup. Users wouldn't know, so they'd be just as happy as before |
| 22:42 | <gsnedders> | but I've recently many times cited specifications and got argued that I'm wrong |
| 22:42 | <gsnedders> | :\ |
| 22:43 | <gsnedders> | I'm a dumb teenager who thinks he knows it all, kthxbai. |
| 22:44 | <gsnedders> | oh, and please do say if you do get T-Shirts :) |
| 22:45 | <othermaciej> | I will let everyone know when/if there are t-shirts, need to do some other stuff for now but I shall try to get it set up tonight |
| 22:50 | <KevinMarks> | Having them for web 2.0 expo next week would be fun |
| 22:50 | <KevinMarks> | (starts on Sunday) |
| 22:51 | <annevk> | I'd love one for a presentation I do on HTML5 next Tuesday |
| 22:52 | <annevk> | but I suspect that might be difficult |
| 22:52 | <KevinMarks> | I'm doing one on Sunday |
| 22:52 | <annevk> | cool |
| 22:53 | <annevk> | Lachy is creating a wiki page where people can probably point to slides and such (if you intend to publish them) |
| 22:53 | <KevinMarks> | well, mine is on microformats, btu I can get an HTML5 reference in |
| 22:55 | <annevk> | ah ok |
| 22:55 | annevk | misunderstood |
| 23:02 | <Lachy> | I've added my presentation and Hixie's to the wiki page. Are there any other publicly available presentations I should add? |
| 23:02 | <Lachy> | annevk, should I list yours in w3c-archive, even though it's member only? |
| 23:03 | <annevk> | I could make it public |
| 23:03 | <Lachy> | that would be good |
| 23:03 | <annevk> | it's not really about HTML5 though |
| 23:04 | <Lachy> | it's related to it a little, but I don't need to add it if you don't want |
| 23:07 | <Lachy> | http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTML5_Presentations |
| 23:09 | zcorpan_ | will probably hold a presentation next month, in swedish |
| 23:11 | <zcorpan_> | at geekmeet |
| 23:13 | <annevk> | Lachy, http://www.w3.org/mid/op.tqm4d0o764w2qv@id-c0020 |
| 23:13 | <annevk> | Lachy, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Apr/att-0024/slides.xml has the slides |
| 23:16 | <Philip`> | "Not YAML" - that confused me until I realised it wasn't talking about the actual YAML (as in http://www.yaml.org/) |
| 23:17 | <annevk> | That's the great thing about using <abbr> in slides - nobody can ever tell what you meant until they look at the source code |
| 23:20 | <zcorpan_> | annevk: what's with xml:id? |
| 23:20 | <annevk> | did you notice the date? |
| 23:21 | <annevk> | March 2006 |
| 23:21 | <zcorpan_> | ah |
| 23:21 | <zcorpan_> | ok |
| 23:21 | <annevk> | I was 19 back then and xml:id was new, cool and supported in Opera nightlies |
| 23:21 | <zcorpan_> | yup |
| 23:26 | <Hixie> | ok now i have to spec the playback rate stuff |
| 23:29 | <annevk> | Hixie, did you see the stuff Philip` made? |
| 23:29 | <annevk> | Hixie, would be nice if you could integrate that somehow in the spec build script |
| 23:30 | <Hixie> | ian⊙hc |
| 23:31 | <annevk> | Philip`, will you e-mail it? |
| 23:34 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: my concern with having a .defaultPlaybackRate that basically does nothing (but will be used by native ui), and having a .playbackRate for the current rate, and requiring .playbackRate = .defaultPlaybackRate to reset, is that nobody will use it |
| 23:34 | <Hixie> | they'll just have their own internal state |
| 23:34 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: I'll have to read what you wrote up |
| 23:34 | <othermaciej> | it's on the todo list |
| 23:34 | <Hixie> | and so if you set the speed to 2x in the ui, and then hit ffwd in the non-native ui, and then hit play, it'll go back to 1x |
| 23:34 | <Hixie> | i haven't written anything yet |
| 23:35 | <Hixie> | i'm trying to work out what to write |
| 23:35 | <othermaciej> | ah |
| 23:35 | <Hixie> | maybe we can force it by saying that sound will only play if defaultPlaybackRate = playbackRate |
| 23:35 | <Hixie> | then people will have to set both |
| 23:35 | <othermaciej> | so the idea is that defaultPlaybackRate is what you use when you hit play() |
| 23:36 | <othermaciej> | er |
| 23:36 | <othermaciej> | when you call play() |
| 23:36 | <Hixie> | yeah we can have play reset the rate as well, someone yesterday was against it though |
| 23:37 | <Hixie> | though they didn't give reasons |
| 23:37 | <annevk> | play(rate) |
| 23:37 | <othermaciej> | I think play() should set playbackRate to defaultPlaybackRate, this makes sense w/ the way controls work |
| 23:37 | <Hixie> | k |
| 23:37 | <Hixie> | i agree |
| 23:37 | <Hixie> | ok |
| 23:37 | <Hixie> | and also mute when the rates don't agree? |
| 23:38 | <Hixie> | or only mute when they don't agree for video? |
| 23:38 | <othermaciej> | FF of video might want to mute, but fast forward of audio likely wouldn't |
| 23:38 | <Lachy> | Hixie, no |
| 23:38 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: yeah |
| 23:38 | <Hixie> | maybe we should require ui to hit mute themselves |
| 23:38 | <Hixie> | though that would confuse other controllers maybe |
| 23:38 | <Hixie> | as all but one controller would be displaying the mute ui |
| 23:38 | <Lachy> | it depends on the reason they're using playback rate |
| 23:39 | <deltab> | other controllers? |
| 23:39 | <Hixie> | lachy: well there are two rates -- the default rate, which is the normal playback rate the user selected, and the current (temporary) rate, which, if different, is the rate used to ffwd or rew. |
| 23:39 | <Lachy> | the user may just want to speed it up to, e.g. watch a 20 min presention in just 10, and in that case audio is needed |
| 23:39 | <Hixie> | then they'd set the default rate to 2 |
| 23:39 | <Lachy> | oh, ok. |
| 23:39 | <Hixie> | and the default rate would equal the rate |
| 23:40 | <Lachy> | I should go read the spec before I comment |
| 23:40 | <Hixie> | there is no spec |
| 23:40 | <Hixie> | yet |
| 23:40 | <Hixie> | trying to work out what it shouldbe |
| 23:40 | <Lachy> | ah, well, there's been heaps of stuff added to <video> since I last read it anyway |
| 23:40 | <Hixie> | true |
| 23:40 | <Hixie> | i wonder if we need a "mute while ffwding" flag |
| 23:41 | Hixie | goes to attend to biological needs like food while thinking about this |
| 23:41 | <deltab> | also whether it should pitch-shift |
| 23:41 | <ianloic> | hmm |
| 23:42 | <ianloic> | is it a good idea to put that much logic into <audio> & <video>? |
| 23:42 | <ianloic> | what if I want to use them to do more fancy multimedia things? |
| 23:43 | <KevinMarks> | pitch shifting is a useragent thing |
| 23:43 | <ianloic> | I should be able to build simple loop-based composition tools with just a little bit of html5, but tying the playback rate to play() would likely break that |
| 23:43 | <KevinMarks> | QT didn't used to do it, but it was added recently, and it helps a lot when you are doing 1.25x audio |
| 23:44 | <KevinMarks> | etc |
| 23:44 | <ianloic> | and there are so many different ways to pitch shift |
| 23:44 | <KevinMarks> | but requiring it is a bit harsh if you don't have the audio processing juice to do it |
| 23:44 | <ianloic> | if you don't do decent formant shifting a lot of content will sound really weird |
| 23:45 | <deltab> | KevinMarks: yeah, that was my concern |
| 23:45 | <ianloic> | so, what about user agents that can only play back one thing at once? |
| 23:46 | <ianloic> | does it make sense to track some kind of "media focus"? |
| 23:46 | <ianloic> | if I want to play each of the pieces of media on a page in order? |
| 23:46 | <KevinMarks> | you cna do it time domain on speech and have it work well, but music will sound weird |
| 23:47 | <KevinMarks> | that brings us back to sequencing, which I keep saying we need |
| 23:53 | <Lachy> | ha! Spammers are posting filthy jokes to the blog :-) |
| 23:54 | <othermaciej> | presenting audio above normal rate has lots of options |
| 23:54 | <Dashiva> | Lachy: You mean they talk about XHTML2? |
| 23:54 | <othermaciej> | you can do a pitch-distorting speedup, you can try to do a pitch-preserving speedup, you can stutter like many consumer CD players do, you can mute |
| 23:55 | <othermaciej> | not sure the spec needs to say which happens |
| 23:55 | <Lachy> | Dashiva, no, but that would be funny also |
| 23:56 | <Philip`> | annevk, Hixie: Yep - I've emailed it now |
| 23:57 | <deltab> | othermaciej: if your game, music composer, etc. relies on the pitch changing, the others aren't acceptable |
| 23:58 | <ianloic> | I would suggest that exposing fast-forward functionality independent of playback rate would be valuable |
| 23:58 | <othermaciej> | deltab: I'm not sure it is reasonable to expect user agents to support all 4 strategies |
| 23:59 | <deltab> | me neither, but the issue should be considered, imho |
| 23:59 | <zcorpan_> | Lachy: is the spam from bots or from humans? |