| 00:00 | <Lachy> | not sure |
| 00:00 | <Lachy> | there was no URL, so I'm not sure what the purpose of it was |
| 00:00 | <ianloic> | are the jokes funny? |
| 00:01 | <ianloic> | the purpose could be to make you laugh |
| 00:01 | <Lachy> | I can post it here if you like |
| 00:01 | <Lachy> | it's not too rude |
| 00:02 | <Lachy> | Hello blog.whatwg.org! |
| 00:02 | <Lachy> | A woman went to her doctor and complained that her husband was 300% impotent. |
| 00:02 | <Lachy> | The doctor replied, "I'm not sure I understand what you mean." |
| 00:02 | <Lachy> | She answered, "Well, the first 100% you can imagine. In addition, he burned his tongue and broke his finger!" |
| 00:02 | <ianloic> | hah |
| 00:02 | <ianloic> | no buy viagra link though? |
| 00:02 | <Lachy> | nope |
| 00:03 | <othermaciej> | so would 19 USD be too much for a 5 > 2 t-shirt? |
| 00:03 | <zcorpan_> | not really |
| 00:04 | <othermaciej> | maybe I can get it cheaper by eliminating profit for me (which I don't want) |
| 00:04 | <Lachy> | that's about $AU23 + postage, which is reasonable |
| 00:04 | <othermaciej> | should I be optimistic and have a women's tee design as well? |
| 00:04 | <zcorpan_> | molly might want one :) |
| 00:05 | <Philip`> | (Do you mean you don't to eliminate profit for you, or that you don't want profit for you?) |
| 00:05 | <othermaciej> | I don't want profit for me |
| 00:05 | <zcorpan_> | how much cheaper would it be? |
| 00:06 | <Lachy> | does the seller make any profit from cafepress sales? |
| 00:06 | <Philip`> | Okay, I assumed that was most likely :-) |
| 00:07 | <Philip`> | You could always use any profit to buy an extra T-shirt and send it to the XHTML2 guys |
| 00:07 | <Dashiva> | I haven't heard much good about cafepress (but I've never used them myself) |
| 00:08 | <Lachy> | or just donate the profit to a worthwhile charity |
| 00:08 | <Lachy> | like the FSF or Mozilla Foundation |
| 00:10 | <Dashiva> | Does the whatwg have an economy, or is everything needed (like hosting) provided by the members? |
| 00:10 | <Lachy> | Hixie pays for the hosting |
| 00:10 | <ianloic> | he's trading hosting for stock though |
| 00:10 | <ianloic> | when WHATWG get's acquired he'll be rich |
| 00:11 | <ianloic> | (where did that apostrophe come from?) |
| 00:11 | <Dashiva> | From xhtml2 |
| 00:11 | <Dashiva> | It's all their fault |
| 00:12 | <KevinMarks> | definitely do womens shirts |
| 00:12 | <hasather> | Dashiva: Yea, I've suspected that they've been tampering with this channel for a long time now |
| 00:12 | <KevinMarks> | the microformats strategy of equal numbers of male and female shirts definitely paid off |
| 00:12 | <Lachy> | the XHTML2 WG have their own IRC channel now |
| 00:13 | <Dashiva> | copycats |
| 00:13 | <Lachy> | irc://irc.w3.org:6665/xhtml |
| 00:13 | Lachy | joined in earlier |
| 00:13 | <Hixie> | is it logged? |
| 00:13 | <Lachy> | not yet |
| 00:13 | <Hixie> | Philip`: yt? |
| 00:13 | <Lachy> | but it's not as if there's heaps of discussion going on there |
| 00:13 | <hasather> | One would think that they can keep their apostrophes in their own channel |
| 00:14 | <KevinMarks> | I didn't think xhtml had ' |
| 00:14 | <Dashiva> | Maybe they're making a subtle comment about html allowing the absense of quoting in non-spaced attributes |
| 00:14 | <hasather> | KevinMarks: it has, HTML hasn't |
| 00:14 | <Lachy> | krijnh should join the XHTML2 channel and put logs up on his site too |
| 00:15 | <Philip`> | Hixie: Huh? |
| 00:15 | <KevinMarks> | aha |
| 00:15 | <zcorpan_> | hasather: html5 has |
| 00:15 | <hasather> | ahh, yea |
| 00:15 | <Hixie> | Philip`: (yt = are You There) |
| 00:15 | <Hixie> | Philip`: these scripts are awesome |
| 00:15 | <Philip`> | Oh, right |
| 00:15 | <Dashiva> | I usually go for 'syn' or 'ping' rather than 'yt' |
| 00:15 | <Philip`> | Yes, I'm here :-) |
| 00:16 | <Hixie> | Philip`: do you mind licensing them under the Apache License 2.0 so that i can check them into http://code.google.com/p/html5/ ? |
| 00:16 | <Lachy> | what's 'syn'? |
| 00:16 | <hasather> | synchronize |
| 00:16 | <Hixie> | Lachy: tcp connection packet |
| 00:16 | <Hixie> | response would be syn/ack |
| 00:16 | <hasather> | and then ack |
| 00:16 | <Hixie> | but if someone else says "ack" or "syn/ack" first, the connection breaks |
| 00:16 | <Hixie> | so i prefer yt :-P |
| 00:16 | <Lachy> | Hixie, why does that use the apache licence instead of MIT? |
| 00:17 | <Philip`> | Hixie: I'd be happy with that |
| 00:17 | <Hixie> | Lachy: google prefers the apache lincense |
| 00:17 | <Hixie> | Philip`: cool |
| 00:17 | <Hixie> | Philip`: do you have a gmail account? |
| 00:17 | <Philip`> | Hixie: I do |
| 00:17 | <Lachy> | oh, I wonder why. It's GPL incompatible |
| 00:18 | <Hixie> | probably because the people who made the decision is on the apache board |
| 00:18 | <Hixie> | but that's another story :-) |
| 00:19 | <Hixie> | Philip`: added you to the members of the group |
| 00:19 | Lachy | wonders when he got added to that project. |
| 00:19 | <Hixie> | Philip`: and checked the code in |
| 00:20 | <Hixie> | Lachy: i added everyone whose gmail address i knew who i thought could even remotely be helpful |
| 00:20 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 00:20 | <Hixie> | Philip`: how do i run the script? (where do i have to put html5lib?) |
| 00:20 | <Lachy> | when was the project started? |
| 00:21 | <Hixie> | a while back |
| 00:21 | <Hixie> | how do you make python use the arguments passed to it? |
| 00:21 | <Lachy> | would have been nice if I were notified about it :-) |
| 00:22 | <Philip`> | Hixie: Okay, thanks! |
| 00:23 | <Hixie> | hm i'm gonna have to hack this to work on the site |
| 00:23 | <Philip`> | Hmm, I think you could rename the html5lib project's "src" directory to "html5lib" and stick it in the same place as the scripts that use it (if you can't just install it normally) |
| 00:23 | <Hixie> | since i don't need things like the non-relative uris |
| 00:23 | <Hixie> | Philip`: k |
| 00:23 | <KevinMarks> | what are you hosting the python with? |
| 00:24 | <Philip`> | Hopefully you've got Python 2.5, else some bits will probably need to be rewritten |
| 00:24 | <hasather> | Hixie: arguments is in a list: sys.argv |
| 00:24 | <hasather> | sys.argv[0] is the name of the program |
| 00:25 | <Hixie> | cool |
| 00:25 | <hasather> | and you have to import sys of course: import sys |
| 00:25 | <Hixie> | i have 22.2, 2.3, and .4 it seems |
| 00:26 | <Philip`> | Oh - if you can extrapolate those versions, it'll work fine |
| 00:26 | <Hixie> | er, 2.2, 2.3, and 2.4 |
| 00:26 | <Hixie> | not sure why that two ended up in the wrong place |
| 00:27 | <Philip`> | Otherwise it'll probably complain obviously about "x for y in z" type stuff |
| 00:27 | <Hixie> | ah |
| 00:27 | <Hixie> | well we'll see |
| 00:29 | <deltab> | someone's asking if it's necessary to be an invited expert to get on the HTML WG mailing list |
| 00:30 | <deltab> | I'm not sure of the answer |
| 00:30 | <Philip`> | You can read the archives and post without being a member at all |
| 00:30 | <deltab> | thanks |
| 00:30 | <zcorpan_> | you can't subscribe though, aiui |
| 00:31 | <Philip`> | (Responding from the archives messes up the threading a bit, though) |
| 00:31 | <Hixie> | you can become an invited expert really really easily |
| 00:31 | <Hixie> | just by following the steps to join the list basically |
| 00:31 | <Hixie> | you don't have to be "invited" nor an "expect" |
| 00:31 | <Hixie> | expert |
| 00:31 | <Lachy> | Philip`, the reply link in the archive has the right fields in it to keep threading working |
| 00:32 | <Lachy> | you just need to be using a decent mail client |
| 00:32 | <Lachy> | I think it's really weird that you can post without agreeing to the patent policy, but can't subscribe |
| 00:33 | <Philip`> | I think it nearly worked, except the outgoing message had "References: %3Cp06240609c242b8eadd32@[192.168.0.101]%3E" and I think the %3C/%3E shouldn't be there |
| 00:33 | <Lachy> | oh, they should have been unescaped |
| 00:34 | <Philip`> | The mailto: link in the archives seems to double-escape them - it has "mailto:...%253C..." |
| 00:34 | <Lachy> | oh, then the archive is broken and should be patched |
| 00:35 | <othermaciej> | http://five-gt-two.spreadshirt.com/ |
| 00:35 | <othermaciej> | I managed to turn off passing myself |
| 00:35 | <othermaciej> | does the design seem ok? |
| 00:35 | <zcorpan_> | arial? |
| 00:35 | <zcorpan_> | or is it helvetica? |
| 00:36 | <othermaciej> | that's arial, since they had support for that built-in and saved me the need to make my own EPS artwork with helvetica |
| 00:36 | <zcorpan_> | is it on both the front and the back? |
| 00:37 | <Lachy> | zcorpan_, there's preview photos that show all sides |
| 00:37 | <othermaciej> | it's only on the front I think |
| 00:38 | <zcorpan_> | it is |
| 00:39 | <zcorpan_> | looks good |
| 00:39 | <zcorpan_> | is it the whatwg green? |
| 00:39 | <Lachy> | doesn't look like it is |
| 00:40 | <zcorpan_> | would be nice if it was |
| 00:40 | <Lachy> | oh, maybe it should have been "5 > 2?" |
| 00:40 | <othermaciej> | there's a limited number of colors available |
| 00:41 | <zcorpan_> | Lachy: why the "?"? |
| 00:41 | <Lachy> | the WHATWG logo |
| 00:41 | <Lachy> | I don't there theres a ? in a circle available |
| 00:41 | <deltab> | are Unicode combining characters supported? |
| 00:42 | <Lachy> | ?⃝ |
| 00:42 | <Lachy> | they are in XChat |
| 00:42 | <Philip`> | That site looks quite like it's got unescaped user input in its title element. I think some should make a T-shirt called </title><style>*{text-decoration:blink}</style> |
| 00:42 | <Philip`> | *someone |
| 00:43 | <deltab> | there's one with <body> on the front and </body> on the back |
| 00:44 | <Lachy> | yeah, I've been thinking about getting that one from Remo with my voucher that I won |
| 00:45 | <Lachy> | http://remo.com.au/online/tshirts_item.cfm?PLU=1104 |
| 00:48 | <othermaciej> | I think I will leave off the whatwg logo because (a) I am lazy and (b) it's more subtle this way |
| 00:48 | <Philip`> | Hixie: Sorry, Freenode doesn't like me sending private messages while unregistered - I'll try to fix that, but in the meantime: That's http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/issues/detail?id=33 |
| 00:48 | <Hixie> | aah |
| 00:48 | <Hixie> | cood |
| 00:48 | <Hixie> | cool even |
| 00:48 | <Hixie> | ok who can i blame who works on html5lib :-) |
| 00:49 | <Philip`> | I believe jgraham said he didn't get that error, but I'm not sure what the difference is |
| 00:49 | Lachy | is wondering if he should explain 5>2 to people asking on twitter |
| 00:51 | <Hixie> | Philip`: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/xml-sig/2004-May/010252.html seems relevant |
| 00:53 | <Hixie> | wow, html5lib takes a long time to parse the spec |
| 00:54 | <Lachy> | I wonder how it could be optomised? |
| 00:54 | <deltab> | even Czech C code takes a couple of seconds to handle that much |
| 00:55 | <Lachy> | how long did it take? |
| 00:56 | <Lachy> | It's funny how, in response to the lack of support for data: URIs in IE, people propose new ideas that are equally unsupported |
| 00:56 | <Hixie> | (about 19s on this machine) |
| 00:59 | <Hixie> | and yes, this is a recurring pattern |
| 00:59 | <Hixie> | it baffles me |
| 00:59 | <Philip`> | I think this works around that html5lib problem: |
| 00:59 | <Philip`> | import xml.dom.minidom |
| 00:59 | <Philip`> | import html5lib |
| 00:59 | <Philip`> | parser = html5lib.html5parser.HTMLParser(tree=html5lib.treebuilders.dom.TreeBuilder) |
| 00:59 | <Philip`> | doc = parser.parse(open('current-work'), encoding='utf-8') |
| 00:59 | <Philip`> | doc.removeChild(doc.firstChild) # remove the doctype, else html5lib's doc.cloneNode dies |
| 00:59 | <Philip`> | head = doc.documentElement.getElementsByTagName('head')[0] |
| 00:59 | <Philip`> | head.insertBefore(doc.createElement('meta'), head.firstChild).setAttribute('charset', 'UTF-8') |
| 00:59 | <Philip`> | ...as a replacement for the top of the file |
| 00:59 | <Philip`> | Er, then you can get rid of that xml.dom.minidom line too |
| 00:59 | <Hixie> | oh the problem is the doctype? |
| 00:59 | <othermaciej> | Lachy: asking on twitter where? |
| 00:59 | <Philip`> | I think so - the problem seems to be triggered when you clone a node which has a doctype thingy as a child |
| 00:59 | <Lachy> | othermaciej, http://twitter.com/DmitryBaranovskiy |
| 00:59 | <Lachy> | I decided to respond |
| 00:59 | <Philip`> | (You can clone the xml.dom.minidom.DocumentType itself, but not a xml.dom.minidom.Document which contains it) |
| 00:59 | <Lachy> | http://twitter.com/Lachy |
| 01:00 | <Hixie> | Philip`: must be a bug in minidom, the TreeBuilder code looks correct to me |
| 01:00 | <Hixie> | anyway removing the doctype is fine |
| 01:01 | <othermaciej> | dammit, do I have to be on Twitter now to be cool? |
| 01:01 | <Hixie> | no |
| 01:02 | <Philip`> | The doctype gets added back in later, via string concatenation in html5Serializer because I couldn't be bothered to figure out the proper way of doing it... |
| 01:02 | <Hixie> | though if you are, make sure to add "WHATWG" as your friend |
| 01:02 | <Hixie> | the whatwg spec checkin script automatically twitters the checkin message |
| 01:02 | <Hixie> | Philip`: yeah |
| 01:02 | <Lachy> | othermaciej, being on twitter won't make you cool, but it's where all the cool kids hang out these days :-) |
| 01:05 | <ianloic> | twitter was cool a year ago |
| 01:05 | <ianloic> | when it was twttr |
| 01:05 | Lachy | only found out about twitter a few weeks ago |
| 01:05 | <ianloic> | its definitely one of those technologies that falls apart when too many people start using it |
| 01:06 | <ianloic> | it jumped the shark when it got a short-code |
| 01:06 | <othermaciej> | ianloic: so you liked their early stuff? |
| 01:07 | <ianloic> | othermaciej, I liked it when it was just me and a few friends :) |
| 01:07 | <KevinMarks> | so L is 42" chest? |
| 01:08 | <Hixie> | well that was weird |
| 01:08 | zcorpan_ | ordered a white one |
| 01:08 | <Hixie> | i saw that twitter had spoken, went to have a look, and it was my script twittering |
| 01:08 | <Hixie> | how confusing |
| 01:09 | <Lachy> | Hixie, I thought it was supposed to post the description from the SVN check in, just just a generic "updated the spec... " message |
| 01:09 | <Hixie> | two scripts |
| 01:09 | <othermaciej> | KevinMarks: they are American Apparel sizes, might be size info on the AA site |
| 01:09 | <Hixie> | ./.update.sh says the message you just got |
| 01:09 | <Hixie> | ./.commit.pl says the checkin message |
| 01:10 | <Lachy> | does update.sh generate the spec from source? |
| 01:10 | <othermaciej> | KevinMarks: L is 42-44" chest |
| 01:10 | <Philip`> | The link to the multiple-page version is wrong |
| 01:10 | <Hixie> | yes |
| 01:10 | <Philip`> | ("extract" probably isn't a great name - I'm not sure why I ever called it that) |
| 01:10 | <Hixie> | what should we call it? |
| 01:10 | <Philip`> | Also the annotations are missing, since it'll be looking for annotate-data.xml in that directory |
| 01:11 | <Hixie> | yeah just fixed that |
| 01:11 | <Hixie> | (not updated yet) |
| 01:11 | <zcorpan_> | M2 stopped working when i upgraded to opera 9.20. the error console keeps poping up saying "Error from server: -ERR bad command g1pf2579637muf. Did you change your password?" |
| 01:11 | <Philip`> | Maybe something like "multi"? |
| 01:12 | <Hixie> | i just independently called it multipage |
| 01:12 | <Philip`> | Could the Twitter message link to the multipage version, so unsuspecting link-followers don't have their browser explode? |
| 01:13 | <Hixie> | sure |
| 01:16 | <Hixie> | oops |
| 01:16 | <Hixie> | misfire |
| 01:16 | <Hixie> | let's try again |
| 01:16 | <Lachy> | hmm. So far there have been no other nominees for spec editor in the HTMLWG, which seems a bit unfair if there is to be an election |
| 01:17 | <Hixie> | we're having an election? |
| 01:17 | <Lachy> | don't know |
| 01:17 | <Hixie> | as far as i can tell me being editor was part of the package of getting the whatwg spec |
| 01:17 | <Lachy> | that's up to the chairs, I guess |
| 01:19 | <Lachy> | just the way you keep saying things like "If the HTML WG adopts the draft and me as editor" makes it seem like there's a remote possibility for someone else |
| 01:19 | <Hixie> | well i don't want to presume |
| 01:20 | <Lachy> | I know, but I think it's a fairly safe assumption |
| 01:24 | <Hixie> | Philip`, your script is awesometastic |
| 01:24 | <Philip`> | Whoops, I think the single-page spec got Opera stuck in an infinite loop |
| 01:24 | <othermaciej> | so far, I don't think anyone else has been nominated as editor |
| 01:25 | <othermaciej> | or volunteered |
| 01:25 | <deltab> | could the twitter message include the log comment? |
| 01:25 | <Hixie> | it does, when it's a checkin |
| 01:25 | <Hixie> | the messages you got weren't checkins |
| 01:25 | <deltab> | ah |
| 01:26 | <Philip`> | (It's reading the length of cache4\opr11VRW.htm twenty five thousand times per second, for the past few minutes, which I think is not intentional behaviour...) |
| 01:27 | <deltab> | it doesn't believe how big the file is :-) |
| 01:28 | <Philip`> | Hixie: Looks good to me now :-) |
| 01:28 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 01:29 | <Hixie> | feel free to post to the html list telling people your script has been incorporated into the whatwg pipeline |
| 01:29 | <Lachy> | post it to both whatwg and public-html so everyone knows |
| 01:32 | <Philip`> | Looks like the tabs/spaces got a bit mangled in the version in SVN - I really should try to remember how to set my editor to do spaces all the time... |
| 01:32 | <Hixie> | i changed a bunch to spaces |
| 01:32 | <Hixie> | maybe not all |
| 01:32 | <Hixie> | so that was probably my fault |
| 01:33 | <Philip`> | Only the bits at the top got changed - the rest are still tabs, so Python might get a bit confused |
| 01:36 | <Hixie> | seems to work ok :-) |
| 01:50 | <Philip`> | Hixie: Do you delete the old multipage/*.html files before adding the new ones, so that stale links will become 404s instead of giving out-of-date content? |
| 01:50 | <Hixie> | yes |
| 01:53 | <Philip`> | Ah, good |
| 01:54 | <Philip`> | (That's the step that I always forget, and it always confuses me about why I'm not seeing any changes I've made...) |
| 01:54 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 02:03 | <Lachy> | why would you need to delete old versions? Wouldn't the updated versions just replace them, keeping the same file names?\ |
| 02:04 | <Philip`> | Sometimes the section IDs will change, so the filenames will change |
| 02:04 | <Lachy> | ah, but changing IDs and filenames breaks links |
| 02:06 | <Philip`> | Yep, and it's better not to leave dead link targets around when they're not being updated by the script any more |
| 02:07 | <Lachy> | yeah, ideally links shouldn't change, though that's probably unavoidable with the spec being edited so much |
| 02:09 | <Philip`> | It's using the IDs of the <hx> elements, which I believe are generated automatically from the textual content of the headings, so just changing a heading will break the links |
| 02:18 | <othermaciej> | HTML5 proposal made it to daringfireball: http://daringfireball.net/linked/2007/april#wed-11-html5 |
| 02:23 | <Dashiva> | - The correct answer to this offer is “Yes.” |
| 02:24 | <Dashiva> | That's cheating! |
| 02:24 | <Hixie> | i love how even AFTER philip wrote the script to split the spec and i merged it with the pipeline, people are still asking for the spec to be split |
| 02:24 | <Hixie> | maybe, just maybe, if they did it themselves when they wanted it like philip did, we wouldn't have had to wait so long to have a split spec |
| 02:25 | <Dashiva> | The w3c doesn't stain its hands with implementations ;) |
| 02:27 | <Hixie> | that particular guy was complaining about this in the whatwg list a few months ago |
| 02:28 | <Lachy> | Hixie, Mike Schinkel? |
| 02:28 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 02:28 | Lachy | is ignoring him |
| 02:28 | <Philip`> | It's not like it takes that much longer to implement than to complain about - it's just using someone else's code to do the hard stuff like parsing HTML, then twiddling bits of DOM |
| 02:29 | <Hixie> | right, dinner |
| 02:29 | <Hixie> | bbl |
| 02:42 | <Philip`> | (It's still failing to load annotate-data.xml - it'd probably be nice to either make that file available, or remove the script that tries to include it on every page (via the two page_body.appendChild(script.cloneNode(True)) lines)) |
| 02:56 | <othermaciej> | I love that people are now taking the design principles document as having some kind of substantive force when we just kinda made it up |
| 02:56 | <Philip`> | (Just noticed one spec change that will break the page links: s/Auxillary/Auxiliary/) |
| 03:05 | <Hixie> | i thought annotate-data.xml was available |
| 03:05 | <Hixie> | what did i break |
| 03:05 | <Hixie> | oh i know |
| 03:05 | <Hixie> | there, should work now |
| 05:36 | <Hixie> | vote: addCuePoint() or addCueMark()? |
| 05:36 | <Hixie> | or something else altogether |
| 05:37 | <othermaciej> | brain not functional enough to have opinion |
| 05:38 | <Hixie> | also should it take an EventListener, a TimeoutHandler, or a Function (where Function is something I'd have to define) |
| 05:39 | <othermaciej> | probably not an EventListener |
| 05:39 | <othermaciej> | how is TimeoutHandler defined right now? |
| 05:40 | <Hixie> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-timers.html#timeouthandler |
| 05:40 | <othermaciej> | probably a no-arg function is fine, since you can check currentTime |
| 05:40 | <Hixie> | k |
| 05:40 | <othermaciej> | TimeoutHandler would be ok I guess, though the extra args thing that setTimeout does is a little weird |
| 05:43 | <Hixie> | or addCuePoint() could just cause an event to be fired |
| 05:43 | <Hixie> | but that seems silly |
| 05:43 | <Hixie> | from an authoring standpoint |
| 05:44 | <othermaciej> | yeah |
| 06:15 | <Hixie> | hmm |
| 06:15 | <Hixie> | are the update twitters useful? |
| 06:15 | <Hixie> | I'm thinking maybe not |
| 06:15 | <Hixie> | the checkin twitters presumably are |
| 06:15 | <Lachy> | Hixie, no, only the checkins |
| 06:15 | <Hixie> | ok, i'll dump them then |
| 06:16 | <Hixie> | i've also made the checkin script not bother twittering for purely editorial stuff |
| 06:17 | <mpt> | Hixie, http://googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=%22cue+point%22&word2=%22cue+mark%22 |
| 06:19 | <Hixie> | good good |
| 06:21 | <Hixie> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-video.html#cue-points |
| 06:30 | <Lachy> | Hixie, thanks for setting up whatwg.org/html5 - that's much easier to type! |
| 06:30 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 06:31 | <Lachy> | /wf2 might be useful too for web forms |
| 06:31 | <Hixie> | added, but i don't expect to do anything to wf2 until we merge the two |
| 06:32 | <Lachy> | yeah, but just incase I need to look somthing up in it |
| 06:50 | <Hixie> | wow, i'm down to only two things to do for media |
| 06:50 | <Hixie> | namely, try to work out whether video.error should be an object, and adding a security section. |
| 06:53 | <othermaciej> | as soon as you are done, I'll likely have to re-review comparing to the Apple version |
| 06:53 | <othermaciej> | and bring up some of the issues from our leftovers section |
| 06:53 | <othermaciej> | like (whee) metadata |
| 06:53 | <Hixie> | you can start now if you want |
| 06:54 | <Hixie> | the two things i have left are working out what to do with error objects (do you want an object or is the code enough?) and the security section, which i'll do last |
| 06:54 | <Hixie> | since i need to make sure i've taken care of security issues before i can write about how i've taken care of them |
| 06:54 | <Hixie> | and i can't take care of them before i've finished adding features |
| 07:02 | <KevinMarks> | QT can give you a nice long list of error codes... |
| 07:03 | <othermaciej> | I think an error object is a better idea |
| 07:03 | <othermaciej> | more reasonable to extend, and there is little value to keeping the error representation lightweight |
| 07:22 | <Hixie> | ok, it's an object now. |
| 07:25 | <Hixie> | ok, also added a dummy section for security |
| 07:25 | <Hixie> | so that's it as far as i'm concerned for v2 of the media object |
| 07:28 | <othermaciej> | ok, I'm planning time for review |
| 07:28 | <othermaciej> | though I also need to squeeze some coding time in |
| 07:29 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 07:30 | <Hixie> | if you look at the <!----> comments in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-video.html#media (search for 'v3') you'll see what _isn't_ included in this version yet |
| 07:30 | <othermaciej> | I need to hassle the Apple folks who were supposed write up accessibility |
| 07:30 | <othermaciej> | and I have a speclet bit to write up myself |
| 07:30 | <Hixie> | (which includes captions and metadata) |
| 07:35 | <KevinMarks> | chapters? |
| 07:35 | <Hixie> | that's part of metadata |
| 07:41 | <KevinMarks> | jolly good |
| 07:47 | Hixie | kills the Audio() API and replaces it with HTMLAudioElement |
| 07:56 | <Hixie> | removed an entire section. |
| 07:57 | <Hixie> | yum. |
| 08:22 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: Re: Apace vs. MIT: the Apache License 2.0 has an explicit patent grant. The MIT license does not. This is both the reason to prefer the Apache license and, due to the GPLv2 compatibility issue, prefer the MIT license |
| 08:32 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, is the Apache licence still incompatible with GPLv3? |
| 08:34 | <othermaciej> | how is the GPL incompatible w/ a license including a patent grant? |
| 08:34 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: no 'new Audio' API for compatibitlity? |
| 08:34 | <othermaciej> | er |
| 08:34 | <othermaciej> | for convenience? |
| 08:34 | <Lachy> | othermaciej, http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/license-list.html lists it as incompatible |
| 08:34 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: yeah, it's there |
| 08:35 | <Lachy> | I think it's because GPL requires no other restrictions to be imposed beyond those in GPL |
| 08:44 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: GPLv2 isn't compatible with licenses that have an explicit patent grant |
| 08:45 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: oh. I misread you. What Lachy said. |
| 08:46 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: my understanding is that it is a goal to draft GPLv3 so that Apache License 2.0 is compatible. I don't know the current status of that compat effort. |
| 08:46 | <Lachy> | ok |
| 09:31 | <Hixie> | i love "[discussion of how public WGs will and should operate]" |
| 09:31 | <Hixie> | there's some irony to the fact that the discussion of how a public group should operate wasn't minuted. |
| 09:32 | <Lachy> | :-) |
| 09:37 | <a-ja> | hi all. <aside> is supposed to allow a <header>, isn't it? |
| 09:38 | <hsivonen> | a-ja: it isn't |
| 09:38 | <hsivonen> | doh |
| 09:38 | <hsivonen> | yes. header can be a descendant of aside |
| 09:38 | <Lachy> | wow, "By the way, the next XHTML 1.* issue will be number 10,000!". With that many issues, you'd think they'd have fixed something ;-/ |
| 09:39 | <hsivonen> | but a aside cannot be an descendant of header |
| 09:39 | hsivonen | should wake up some more before misreading more questions |
| 09:39 | <a-ja> | hsivonen: yep...that's what i'd expect |
| 09:40 | <a-ja> | heh...that too :) |
| 09:42 | a-ja | should get some shuteye before asking any more....but what the heck |
| 09:43 | <a-ja> | hsivonen: you'll fixup the conformance checker to allow header descendant of aside? |
| 09:47 | <hsivonen> | a-ja: it doesn't now? |
| 09:48 | <hsivonen> | a-ja: did you mix inline and <header>? |
| 09:48 | <a-ja> | nope....style descendant seems to be ok though |
| 09:49 | <hsivonen> | aside.inner = |
| 09:49 | <hsivonen> | ( style.elem* |
| 09:49 | <hsivonen> | , common.inner.bimorphic |
| 09:49 | <hsivonen> | ) |
| 09:49 | <hsivonen> | a-ja: test case? |
| 09:49 | <a-ja> | i have a <p> after the header |
| 09:50 | <a-ja> | http://a-ja.net/html5-sections.html |
| 09:51 | <annevk> | you are overdoing the <header> thing though |
| 09:51 | <annevk> | o sorry, it's a test :) |
| 09:51 | annevk | should wake up too |
| 09:52 | <hsivonen> | a-ja: you wrote heading instead of header |
| 09:53 | <a-ja> | doh! |
| 09:54 | <hsivonen> | http://hsivonen.iki.fi/validator/html5/?doc=http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/header-in-aside.html |
| 09:56 | <a-ja> | it was bad enough before when i tried using a <h> elements in CSS |
| 09:57 | a-ja | knows that's heresy! |
| 09:58 | <a-ja> | on that night.....off for some zzzzzzzzzzzzz's |
| 10:03 | <annevk> | http://twitter.com/WHATWG/statuses/25578381 |
| 10:06 | <Lachy> | I wonder how many of those shirts have sold so far. othermaciej, are those stats available? |
| 10:21 | <annevk> | Lachy, how fast do they deliver to AU? |
| 10:22 | <Lachy> | don't know, but probably not fast enough |
| 10:22 | <annevk> | k |
| 10:22 | <zcorpan_> | hm. today i my inbox was filled with emails that i have sent to others. but no other emails. :S |
| 10:22 | <Lachy> | it'd probably take at least a week if they're shipping from the US |
| 10:22 | <annevk> | well, I'll have to wait a few weeks then until I have my credit cards back |
| 10:22 | <annevk> | zcorpan_, you spammer |
| 10:23 | <zcorpan_> | i don't get it |
| 10:23 | <Lachy> | zcorpan_, consider yourself lucky |
| 10:23 | <zcorpan_> | lol |
| 10:23 | <Lachy> | but you should have at least got some from public-html |
| 10:23 | <zcorpan_> | yeah |
| 10:23 | <Lachy> | and whatwg |
| 10:24 | <Lachy> | woah, 34 messages on whatwg since midnight! |
| 10:24 | <zcorpan_> | i have them on gmail.com. but opera says no new messages |
| 10:25 | <zcorpan_> | should i reinstall opera? |
| 10:25 | <annevk> | neh |
| 10:25 | <annevk> | POP? IMAP? |
| 10:25 | <zcorpan_> | pop |
| 10:25 | <annevk> | dunno about that |
| 10:25 | <Lachy> | and 68 on public-html! |
| 10:26 | <zcorpan_> | Lachy: midnight UTC? |
| 10:26 | <Lachy> | no, midnight my time |
| 10:26 | <zcorpan_> | ok |
| 10:26 | <Lachy> | UTC+10 |
| 10:26 | <annevk> | hit check/send a few times... |
| 10:26 | <zcorpan_> | annevk: done that |
| 10:26 | <zcorpan_> | "no messages received or sent" |
| 10:26 | <annevk> | does it connect to the server? |
| 10:26 | <zcorpan_> | yes |
| 10:27 | <zcorpan_> | "connected" |
| 10:27 | <zcorpan_> | i can send emails |
| 10:27 | <Lachy> | try recreating your profile or something. That's what I do when FF and TB screw up badly |
| 10:27 | <zcorpan_> | ok |
| 10:27 | <annevk> | sometimes this works |
| 10:27 | <zcorpan_> | won't my emails and their labels go away then though? |
| 10:28 | <annevk> | tools -> mail and chat accounts -> edit your account -> servers -> add a space after the server name and try again |
| 10:28 | <annevk> | I don't really encounter that problem with Opera 9.2 anymore but maybe it helps |
| 10:28 | <zcorpan_> | same |
| 10:28 | <Lachy> | ooh, 9.2's been released? |
| 10:28 | Lachy | goes to upgrde |
| 10:29 | <annevk> | hah, and I'm joking. I'm using Opera 9.1 |
| 10:29 | <annevk> | but 9.2 has indeed been released |
| 10:29 | <zcorpan_> | this started when i installed 9.2 i think |
| 10:32 | annevk | goes back to reading the HTML5 changelog |
| 10:34 | <Lachy> | the new Opera speed dial looks interesting |
| 10:47 | <SuitCase> | oh no! html5 is going to take over the world now? |
| 10:48 | <SuitCase> | i am reading this interesting proposal to the w3c. it kinda makes me feel bad for the people who have seemingly spent so long on something that may end up irrelevant. |
| 10:51 | <Hixie> | which ones? whatwg? rdf? xhtml2? |
| 10:52 | <SuitCase> | xhtml2. i'm referring to this: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Apr/0429.html |
| 10:53 | <Hixie> | right |
| 10:54 | annevk | notes that people worked hard and long on HTML5 too |
| 10:54 | <annevk> | in fact, if you compare XHTML2 and HTML5... but lets not go there |
| 10:55 | <SuitCase> | oh, sure, but html5 people are the cool kids that get all the recognition anyway. |
| 10:55 | <annevk> | heh, you should read some comments on articles |
| 10:56 | <SuitCase> | oh? this is just my perception. |
| 10:57 | <annevk> | See http://ajaxian.com/archives/proposal-for-the-w3c-to-adopt-html-5 for instance |
| 10:58 | <annevk> | It has quite a big group of supporters too though, it varies per community |
| 11:00 | <annevk> | (People opposing are also mostly flamebaits, which is encouraging.) |
| 11:01 | <SuitCase> | that's interesting. thanks for the link. |
| 11:04 | <SuitCase> | does it look like it will be successful? there seems to be little resistance from the w3c people there. |
| 11:04 | <annevk> | it already is successful |
| 11:04 | <annevk> | see <canvas> for instance |
| 11:07 | <SuitCase> | well, i mean the specific proposal to have the w3c adopt the html5 spec in favour of xhtml. |
| 11:07 | <SuitCase> | err.. instead of xhtml. |
| 11:08 | <annevk> | HTML5 has an XML and HTML serialization |
| 11:09 | <hsivonen> | SuitCase: well, since the W3C already established the new HTML WG, it is pretty clear that XHTML 2.0 is not the answer to the question that the new HTML WG is expected to answer |
| 11:09 | <annevk> | XHTML1 also uses the semantics from HTML4 |
| 11:09 | <annevk> | I suppose many people don't really understand that |
| 11:12 | <annevk> | The answer is pretty clear, we still don't get the question though :) |
| 11:16 | <annevk> | SimonW, how did your presentation go? |
| 11:16 | <SimonW> | reasonably well |
| 11:17 | <SimonW> | cramming the entire history of HTML / WHATWG in to 5 minutes was, in hindsight, a bit ambitious |
| 11:17 | <SimonW> | but I think it got people interested / thinking, which is good |
| 11:17 | <SimonW> | could have happily done 45 minutes |
| 11:18 | <SimonW> | slides : http://simonwillison.net/2007/talks/oxford-html5/ |
| 11:19 | <SuitCase> | hsivonen: oh! i was not aware of this. guess i need to learn more about the spec process. |
| 11:19 | <Hixie> | oh hey, SimonW is simon willison, didn't realise that |
| 11:20 | <Hixie> | hey simon |
| 11:20 | <SimonW> | hi Hixie |
| 11:21 | <SimonW> | are you at XTech again this year? |
| 11:24 | <Hixie> | nah |
| 11:24 | <Hixie> | nice slides for your talk, btw |
| 11:27 | <SimonW> | thanks |
| 11:28 | <Hixie> | othermaciej, dude, you have to bring out your patent bat on the list again |
| 11:29 | <SimonW> | I was going to use your diagram of IE building something that isn't a tree from a malformed DOM, but I had to drop it due to time constraints |
| 11:36 | <annevk> | slides are nice |
| 11:39 | <annevk> | btw, when I did performance testing long ago on Web Apps 1.0 it took 6 seconds or so... not 19 |
| 11:39 | <annevk> | either someone regressed it heavily or Web Apps became a lot larger :) |
| 11:43 | <Hixie> | or the machine i'm using isn't as good as yours... |
| 11:43 | <Hixie> | makes no sense to compare performance metrics on different machines |
| 11:43 | <Hixie> | even on the same machine many factors can affec it |
| 11:45 | <annevk> | yeah, fair enough |
| 11:45 | <annevk> | some day we'll port the thing to C |
| 11:46 | <zcorpan> | "Fetching messages (17/685)" |
| 11:46 | <zcorpan> | after reinstall |
| 11:47 | <annevk> | fancy |
| 11:47 | <zcorpan> | i still have my bookmarks, that's nice |
| 11:47 | <zcorpan> | not anything else though :| |
| 11:49 | <zcorpan> | my feeds! sigh, how should i know which feeds i were subscribed to? |
| 11:50 | <zcorpan> | hm, seems like my old profile is in another folder |
| 12:14 | gsnedders | now really wants 5 > 2 T-shirts |
| 12:14 | <gsnedders> | :P |
| 12:30 | <zcorpan> | SimonW: i'll add your presentation to http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTML5_Presentations |
| 12:31 | <SimonW> | thanks zcorpan |
| 12:31 | <SimonW> | should be video of it up online in the next few days |
| 12:32 | <zcorpan> | SimonW: you have a whatwg wiki account? |
| 12:33 | <SimonW> | not yet |
| 12:33 | <zcorpan> | was it presented today? |
| 12:34 | <SimonW> | yesterday |
| 12:34 | <zcorpan> | ok |
| 12:34 | <SimonW> | (you should install the MediaWiki OpenID plugin) |
| 12:34 | <SimonW> | creating an acconut... |
| 12:36 | <annevk> | SimonW, pointer for that plugin? if it's easy to set up I'm sure Hixie will integrate it |
| 12:36 | <SimonW> | I'm SimonW |
| 12:36 | <annevk> | I believe DanC was willing to contribute as well if we had an OpenID login mechanism |
| 12:36 | <Hixie> | surely openid would just make it easier for spammers |
| 12:37 | <Hixie> | since they'd just have to set up an open authentication openid |
| 12:37 | <SimonW> | http://www.openidenabled.com/software/mediawiki |
| 12:37 | <SimonW> | yup, OpenID is great for spammers |
| 12:37 | <SimonW> | but right now there's no captcha on the wiki account creation (is there?) |
| 12:37 | <SimonW> | so shouldn't make a difference in practise |
| 12:38 | <Hixie> | there's no captcha but there's some tricks going on behind the scenes to make it harder for them to log in and create an account |
| 12:38 | <Hixie> | actually since we implemented those hacks i don't think we've had any spam at all (we used to have quite a lot) |
| 12:38 | <Hixie> | or were the hacks we added just for the forums |
| 12:38 | <Hixie> | i forget |
| 12:38 | <zcorpan> | is "[[User:SimonW|Simon Willison]]" correct? |
| 12:38 | <SimonW> | yup |
| 12:38 | <SimonW> | OpenID users still have to create a wiki account when they use OpenID |
| 12:39 | <SimonW> | the only difference is that they don't have to set Yet Another Password |
| 12:39 | <SimonW> | so it might be compatible with the measures you have at the moment |
| 12:39 | <zcorpan> | http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTML5_Presentations |
| 12:39 | <annevk> | Hixie, there was some spam, I wasn't sure how to undo it and such |
| 12:39 | <Hixie> | i undo it when i see it |
| 12:39 | <SimonW> | http://wikitravel.org/en/Main_Page has the OpenID thing installed (they developed it) |
| 12:39 | <Hixie> | (i get mailed for every change to the wiki) |
| 12:40 | <annevk> | http://wiki.whatwg.org/index.php?title=Category:Implementations&curid=1645&diff=2188&oldid=2096 |
| 12:40 | <annevk> | http://wiki.whatwg.org/index.php?title=User:Matthew_Raymond:dataentry_element&curid=734&diff=2186&oldid=786 |
| 12:40 | <annevk> | not sure they qualify as spam |
| 12:40 | <annevk> | but they're not doing useful stuff |
| 12:41 | <annevk> | is Jarvklo online here? |
| 12:42 | <SimonW> | http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:OpenID looks like a better bet than that patch |
| 12:42 | <Hixie> | annevk: weird |
| 12:42 | <Hixie> | didn't get mailed for those either |
| 12:42 | <Hixie> | wonder why not |
| 12:44 | <zcorpan> | annevk: why? |
| 12:44 | <annevk> | re: Talk:Changes from HTML4 |
| 12:46 | <zcorpan> | i could ask him to get in here |
| 12:47 | <annevk> | i replied in the wiki |
| 12:47 | <annevk> | Hixie, not going to bed today? |
| 12:48 | <Hixie> | meh |
| 12:48 | gsnedders | realises the time in Hixie-land |
| 12:48 | gsnedders | used to live on 4 hours sleep without much issue |
| 12:54 | <zcorpan> | wonder if i should make html5-elements link to the multipage version or not |
| 12:54 | <annevk> | depends on how much work you want in mainting the thing |
| 12:54 | <annevk> | maintaining* |
| 12:55 | <zcorpan> | i'll leave it as is for now |
| 12:56 | <annevk> | the multipage version is not yet ideal |
| 12:56 | <Philip`> | zcorpan: If you do, it should be relatively straightforward to use the existing spec-splitter script to get the same ID -> filename mapping |
| 12:57 | <annevk> | oh right, that makes sense |
| 12:57 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: ok |
| 12:58 | <Hixie> | annevk: if you want it improved, feel free to commit patches |
| 12:58 | <annevk> | yeah, I was just thinking that I should shut up :) |
| 12:58 | <Hixie> | :-D |
| 12:58 | <Hixie> | i didn't mean that sarcasticly though |
| 12:58 | <Hixie> | i mean, you've checked in patches before :-) |
| 12:59 | <Hixie> | right well i really should sleep |
| 12:59 | <Hixie> | nn |
| 13:00 | <zcorpan> | g'night Hixie |
| 13:00 | <annevk> | g'night |
| 13:01 | <virtuelv> | ah, editing |
| 13:01 | <virtuelv> | I'm on a slow track to make any spec editing 100x more useful from within my editor |
| 13:09 | <MikeSmith> | virtuelv - hei |
| 13:10 | <virtuelv> | MikeSmith: hey |
| 13:10 | <virtuelv> | MikeSmith: you going to xtech? |
| 13:10 | <MikeSmith> | yah |
| 13:10 | <annevk> | MikeSmith, your former former employer joined the HTML WG |
| 13:11 | <MikeSmith> | annevk - yep. Because I made them an offer they couldn't refuse :) |
| 13:12 | <MikeSmith> | Christian Sejersen is a friend |
| 13:12 | <MikeSmith> | he's the engineering manager for their client product dev group (which includes their browser) |
| 13:13 | <MikeSmith> | an implementor |
| 13:14 | <MikeSmith> | I don't know how much coding his does now, be he did a lot of hands-on work on their browser over the years |
| 13:14 | <annevk> | i see |
| 13:15 | <MikeSmith> | virtuelv - we are doing this Gelocation BoF |
| 13:16 | <MikeSmith> | http://2007.xtech.org/public/schedule/detail/222 |
| 13:17 | <MikeSmith> | about developing a standard scripting interface to location-sensing (GPS, etc.) capabilities on devices |
| 13:18 | <MikeSmith> | you and Geir should please be there |
| 13:20 | <annevk> | Geir is planning, it seems |
| 13:21 | <MikeSmith> | annevk - great. Will be good to see him |
| 13:22 | <MikeSmith> | annevk, virtuelv - other than you guys and Geir and Haakon, anybody else from Opera planning to be there? |
| 13:22 | <MikeSmith> | gorm maybe? |
| 13:23 | <virtuelv> | MikeSmith: dunno, perhaps p01 |
| 13:23 | <MikeSmith> | whoah |
| 13:23 | <MikeSmith> | that'll be cool if he's there |
| 13:23 | MikeSmith | misses #staff very very much |
| 13:29 | <annevk> | do you need to register btw? |
| 13:29 | annevk | hasn't been busy much with XTech stuff yet |
| 13:34 | <MikeSmith> | annevk - yeah, you need to register |
| 13:36 | <annevk> | i believe last time I just went there and bought a ticket at the door |
| 13:37 | <MikeSmith> | ah, yeah, I'm sure they'll be happy to do that |
| 13:37 | <MikeSmith> | btw, no Reboot this year? |
| 13:37 | <annevk> | can't come |
| 13:37 | <annevk> | there will be one though |
| 13:45 | <Philip`> | annevk: If you have ideas for improving the multipage version, it could be useful to write them down somewhere in case someone is bored enough to work on it again in the future :-) |
| 13:46 | <Philip`> | (I'd at least like to merge some of the empty h2-level pages) |
| 13:46 | <Philip`> | ((but I'm away for the next five days so I can't actually do anything now)) |
| 13:54 | <annevk> | 1. Empty pages. 2. Unstable links. 3. Ugly links. |
| 13:54 | <annevk> | I suppose only 1 can be solved |
| 13:54 | <annevk> | The others can probably be solved by getting stable header IDs |
| 14:04 | <zcorpan> | all emails read! phew |
| 14:44 | <MikeSmith> | http://www.reboot.dk/article-184-en.html |
| 15:08 | <annevk> | from www-svg: " |
| 15:08 | <annevk> | That said, unless the interfaces for working with HTML improve in its next version, I'm going to prefer to work with pure SVG, which has a much cleaner and more consistent API." |
| 15:09 | <annevk> | (signed by Doug Schepers) |
| 15:09 | annevk | isn't entirely sure what it means or implies |
| 15:11 | <hsivonen> | annevk: which clients implement the pure svg apis? |
| 15:12 | <annevk> | Opera and Adobe |
| 15:12 | <annevk> | dunno how much Firefox does |
| 15:12 | <annevk> | I'm not sure what definition of clean and consistent he's using though |
| 15:13 | <hsivonen> | annevk: how does Opera reconcile legacy hhtml api impurities ? is svg contradictory ? |
| 15:18 | <annevk> | no, it's just different |
| 15:19 | <annevk> | i haven't paid much attention to it lately though |
| 16:06 | zcorpan | has to subscribe to hsivonen's rss feed as opposed to his atom feed, because opera doesn't show anything for the atom feed :( |
| 16:07 | <annevk> | feel free to make a bug report :) |
| 16:08 | <zcorpan> | you don't have one already? |
| 16:09 | <annevk> | dunno |
| 16:09 | <annevk> | I'm not up to date with our feed stuff |
| 16:15 | <zcorpan> | #260205, used http://hsivonen.iki.fi/feed/atom/ as the test case |
| 16:16 | <annevk> | cc'ed qa contact for those bugs |
| 16:19 | <Dashiva> | Hmm... namespacing atom as non-default |
| 17:49 | <Dashiva> | not very encouraging reading, that essay Chris wrote |
| 17:57 | <zcorpan_> | i still don't understand why we can't make the spec say whatever MS needs it to say in order to be compatible (e.g. <object classid>) |
| 17:57 | <zcorpan_> | and <!doctype html5> triggers quirks mode in gecko and webkit, so can't be used |
| 17:58 | <Dashiva> | The second word is supposed to be the root element, after all |
| 17:58 | <zcorpan_> | e.g. the spec could define how classid works, but make activex optional or something |
| 17:58 | <zcorpan_> | Dashiva: that's not the relevant part, although it is the reason why it triggers quirks mode |
| 17:58 | <Dashiva> | All that aside, he didn't make a case for versioning the spec at all |
| 17:58 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: are you goint to say that the doctype he proposed doesn't work? |
| 17:59 | <hsivonen> | going |
| 17:59 | <zcorpan_> | dunno |
| 17:59 | <hsivonen> | (on the list, that is) |
| 17:59 | <zcorpan_> | should i? |
| 17:59 | <Philip`> | (Hmm, is it intentional that Firefox stays in standards mode even if you put up to 1024 minus sizeof(doctype) bytes of text in front of it?) |
| 17:59 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: someone has to |
| 17:59 | <Dashiva> | He wants IE versioning, not spec versioning. No matter the doctype, IE6 -> IE7 was on the same pages |
| 17:59 | zcorpan_ | responds then |
| 18:00 | <Dashiva> | In conclusion, we want a <meta ie-support-version="5,6,7"> |
| 18:01 | <Dashiva> | Or rather, he wants it |
| 18:15 | <Philip`> | It seems he calls it "opt[ing] in to standards compliance", but it sounds like the proposal is more 'opting in to the behaviour of the oldest version of IE that I want my site to work correctly in' |
| 18:16 | <Philip`> | Somebody needs to beat his "I think I win for longest post to this list so far" by replying with "+1" (or "-1") followed by quoting his entire message |
| 18:18 | <annevk> | <!doctype html> should be the new IE opt in and we'll make damn sure (by means of thousands of tests) that they get it right |
| 18:19 | <annevk> | but the browser sniffing is indeed a real pain |
| 18:20 | <annevk> | hey othermaciej! |
| 18:20 | <Philip`> | Would the IE team be able to pass all the tests that they're given, rather than having to ship a half-finished IE$n by some fixed deadline? (I have no idea how flexible their release schedule is) |
| 18:21 | <annevk> | if they ship frequently hpoefully authors don't rely on broken behavior too much |
| 18:21 | <annevk> | that's how other browsers are able to fix their standards support anyway |
| 18:22 | <annevk> | of course, our baseline is slightly better |
| 18:23 | <Philip`> | Is that browser sniffing mostly on the client side, with the <!--[if gt IE 6]> type stuff? If so, they could circumvent that sniffing and get the same content as other browsers by just removing support for those conditional comments |
| 18:25 | <othermaciej> | hi annevk |
| 18:33 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: well, I pointed out that the doctype won't work |
| 18:36 | <zcorpan_> | hsivonen: ok |
| 18:42 | <hsivonen> | hmm. I think the generic "solution" to the IE problem is <html bugs-as-of='2007-04-12'> |
| 18:42 | <Philip`> | If HTML5 sticks with <!DOCTYPE html>, presumably HTML6 wouldn't be able to use a nice doctype and it'd have to do something ugly like <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "6"> or <!DOCTYPE html><html version="6">, which I suppose is one problem with not looking ahead to support whatever versioning HTML6 might need |
| 18:43 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: how would it help if HTML5 was as ugly? |
| 18:43 | <Philip`> | The HTML5 spec could say UAs must handle <!DOCTYPE html(\d+)> identically to <!DOCTYPE html>, though it'd still be non-conforming for authors |
| 18:44 | <Philip`> | then at some point in the future, when all non-negligible UAs support HTML5, HTML7 can happily use <!DOCTYPE html7> |
| 18:44 | <zcorpan_> | Philip`: <!doctype htmlx> still triggers quirks mode in gecko and webkit, so it will never be an option |
| 18:44 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: and what would you do on the XML side? |
| 18:45 | <Philip`> | zcorpan_: <!doctype html> still triggers quirks-like-mode in IE4 - but nobody cares, since it's too old and few people use it |
| 18:46 | <zcorpan_> | Philip`: ie4 only has quirks mode |
| 18:46 | <zcorpan_> | there's nothing we can do about ie4 |
| 18:47 | hsivonen | notes that the HTML5 doctype triggers the quirks mode in legacy Geckos that have rickg's sniffing instead of dbaron's |
| 18:47 | <zcorpan_> | true |
| 18:48 | <zcorpan_> | ok, i get your point |
| 18:48 | <zcorpan_> | but i don't see why it would be useful |
| 18:48 | <zcorpan_> | we shouldn't encourage future revisions of html to introduce versioning |
| 18:49 | <Philip`> | Hmm, I suppose the difference is that there's no way at all to get standards mode in IE4 (and IE5?), even with ugly version identifiers - whereas HTML7 could still get standards mode from FF2, if it kept using <!DOCTYPE html>, and so it's worthwhile even if approximately nobody uses FF2 that far in the future |
| 18:51 | <Philip`> | (and so it's not worth making HTML5 require support for <!DOCTYPE html7>, because HTML7 should still use <!DOCTYPE html> and if it really needs a version number then it can do something else) |
| 18:52 | <Philip`> | (*something else which won't trigger quirks mode in ancient browsers like FF2) |
| 18:52 | <zcorpan_> | indeed |
| 18:59 | <zcorpan_> | is it possible for other browser vendors to ship a browser with activex support? |
| 19:00 | <annevk> | i'd think so |
| 19:06 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: only on Windows |
| 19:06 | <zcorpan_> | ok |
| 19:12 | <Philip`> | http://plugindoc.mozdev.org/windows-all.html#ActiveX |
| 19:24 | <zcorpan_> | http://simon.html5.org/temp/Versioning%20and%20html[5].txt -- comments before i send it? |
| 19:26 | <Philip`> | http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/04/12/152245 - in case anyone really likes reading comments sections [and hasn't found this already] |
| 19:31 | <hasather> | zcorpan_: in the first paragraph, you have "doens't" |
| 19:32 | <zcorpan_> | hasather: fixed |
| 19:40 | <zcorpan_> | no other comments? |
| 19:40 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: typo: In my optinion |
| 19:41 | <zcorpan_> | thanks |
| 19:44 | <Philip`> | With conditional comments, is it reasonable to suggest that if IE fixed enough bugs then they could remove support for conditional comments and they would no longer suffer because of authors' expectations of IE-brokenness? (I don't know if that's realistic or not) |
| 19:44 | <zcorpan_> | on the long term, yes |
| 19:45 | <zcorpan_> | on the short term they won't be able to fix enough bugs to be able to remove CCs |
| 19:46 | <zcorpan_> | they are useful to fix bugs without relying on other bugs or expecting the next version of ie to have the same bug |
| 19:46 | <zcorpan_> | they are too powerful though, it should have only been possible to say "if lte IE X" |
| 19:47 | <zcorpan_> | because too many authors just say "if IE" and thus apply the bug fixes to all future versions of ie that still implements CCs |
| 19:48 | <zcorpan_> | (i guess they could drop make "if IE" return false, though, but that would be ugly) |
| 19:48 | <zcorpan_> | s/drop// |
| 19:48 | <Philip`> | Then people might say "if lte IE 999" if they want to apply to all version of IE forevermore |
| 19:48 | <Philip`> | ...but at least then it'd be obviously ugly and nasty, so maybe they wouldn't do that as often as they do "if IE" |
| 19:48 | <zcorpan_> | yes, but that would be an active choise |
| 19:49 | <zcorpan_> | when they use "if IE" today they only intended to fix IE6 |
| 19:49 | <Philip`> | Ah, makes sense |
| 19:50 | <Philip`> | It would be nice if IE shipped with a list of all its bugs, so you could do conditional comments based on which ones they've fixed yet... |
| 19:50 | <Philip`> | (I suppose impossible solutions aren't much good, though) |
| 19:52 | <zcorpan_> | given only typos have been commented on i take it as it isn't fundamentally bogus, so i'll send it now |
| 19:53 | <Philip`> | I didn't see any fundamental bogosity, though I don't think I'm very sensitive at picking up things like that |
| 19:54 | <zcorpan_> | sent |
| 19:56 | <Philip`> | Hmm, should the multipage version of the HTML5 spec be written in HTML 4.01 (like the single-page one is)? |
| 19:56 | <zcorpan_> | naw |
| 19:57 | <Philip`> | If it has the same normative value as the single-page one (which it appears it does), it would make more sense to not write it in itself |
| 19:57 | <zcorpan_> | i'd expect the single-page one to be html5 too when the tools used to produce it are updated |
| 19:58 | <zcorpan_> | the html4 spec is written in html4 |
| 19:58 | <zcorpan_> | having it in html5 would be a proof of concept that it is indeed compatible with html4 UAs :) |
| 19:59 | <Philip`> | Ah, okay then |
| 19:59 | <Philip`> | http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-html40-970708/cover.html seems to be the latest HTML4 that wasn't written in HTML4 |
| 19:59 | <zcorpan_> | ok |
| 19:59 | <Philip`> | HTML5 is nicer to generate than HTML4, since it makes it obvious how you're meant to do it, so I'm happy with sticking to that :-) |
| 20:05 | <zcorpan_> | hsivonen: what was the conclusion of http://www.effi.org/sananvapaus/videotiedostomuoto.html , briefly? |
| 20:11 | <zcorpan_> | wey! opera 9.2 has new style sheets! |
| 20:12 | <zcorpan_> | nice |
| 20:12 | <zcorpan_> | now i don't need my "reveal IDs" bookmarklet anymore |
| 20:15 | <zcorpan_> | what is "Inline structure"? |
| 20:17 | <zcorpan_> | "Table of contents" would be more useful to have in the sidebar, i think |
| 20:17 | <Philip`> | Would it be feasible to implement <video> for IE6/7 with JavaScript+Flash? (It'd only support .flv files but at least it could use the same syntax and API as the alternate non-FLV video sources) |
| 20:18 | <zcorpan_> | why flash? i thought you could use html+time to render video in ie |
| 20:19 | <Philip`> | Oh, I forgot about that |
| 20:19 | <zcorpan_> | don't know about the feasability though |
| 20:19 | <zcorpan_> | would be cool if it worked |
| 20:20 | <zcorpan_> | (given what dean edwards has implemented with js in ie, i would be surprised if it didn't work) |
| 20:43 | <annevk> | jgraham, your suggestion is pretty evil |
| 20:43 | <annevk> | having said that, I need to go |
| 20:43 | <jgraham> | annevk: I know :) |
| 20:44 | <Hixie> | we hit /. |
| 20:44 | <kingryan> | http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/07/04/12/152245.shtml ? |
| 20:45 | <Hixie> | yah |
| 20:45 | <Hixie> | sorry if it's old news, i'm going through my new referrers :-) |
| 20:45 | <zcorpan_> | authors can use CCs today without making assumptions about future IEs. i don't see why that isn't good enough |
| 20:45 | <kingryan> | looks like it was posted today |
| 20:45 | <annevk> | (was in this channel before though) |
| 20:46 | <zcorpan_> | (i.e. <!--[if lte IE 7]> to fix bugs in current IEs) |
| 20:47 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: "EFFI recommends that videos distributed on the Internet be offered at least as HTTP-downloadable H.264 (Main or Baseline profile)/Low Complexity AAC/MP4 or Theora/Vorbis/Ogg format video files that are directly linked to from an HTML page and that have no kind of Digital Restrictions Management (DRM) applied to them. In particular, it is noted that Windows Media Video or Flash video should not be offered as the only choice." |
| 20:48 | <zcorpan_> | hsivonen: thanks |
| 20:49 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: the document was written in response to the national public broadcaster going with a WMV9-only solution that doesn't even work properly with Flip4Mac |
| 20:50 | <hsivonen> | (this happened after they got a new CEO who previously worked from Microsoft Finland) |
| 20:50 | <zcorpan_> | ok |
| 20:51 | <hsivonen> | s/from/for/ |
| 21:20 | <zcorpan_> | Hixie: to be fair to ms, the classid and codebase attributes (and indeed the entire <object> element) might have been invented by ms before it was included in html4 |
| 21:21 | <Hixie> | what's in html4 doesn't match what they do |
| 21:22 | <zcorpan_> | i don't understand the question |
| 21:25 | <Hixie> | it's not a question |
| 21:26 | <Hixie> | ie 'codebase' != html4 'codebase' |
| 21:26 | <zcorpan_> | oh |
| 21:26 | <zcorpan_> | indeed |
| 21:26 | <Hixie> | so ie's attribute wasn't included in the html4 spec |
| 21:26 | <Hixie> | even if the name was used by ie before the spec came out |
| 21:27 | <zcorpan_> | true, but if ms used the attribute name first it isn't their fault that it is in conflict with html4 |
| 21:28 | <zcorpan_> | that's what i meant |
| 21:29 | <zcorpan_> | ...unless ms were in the html wg back then defining it |
| 21:30 | <Philip`> | Chris said "the WHATWG HTML5 removes a few key attributes from the <object> element that were in HTML 4.01 - namely, classid and codebase - that are heavily used by ActiveX in IE", which is why it's relevant to say that IE isn't actually using those HTML 4.01 attributes |
| 21:30 | <Philip`> | (independent of whose fault it is that the spec and the implementation disagree) |
| 21:31 | <zcorpan_> | yes |
| 21:33 | <othermaciej> | hi everyone |
| 21:34 | <zcorpan_> | hi othermaciej |
| 21:43 | <zcorpan_> | "inline structure" reveals at least <code> and <abbr> it seems |
| 22:06 | <zcorpan_> | is display:table-cell on its own handled correctly in latest webkit? (i.e. is http://simon.html5.org/temp/w3c-home-in-html5.html rendered in three columns or one column?) |
| 22:09 | <othermaciej> | I'm surprised the HTML5 proposal made it to slashdot but not digg or reddit (yet) |
| 22:16 | <zcorpan_> | apparently it isn't. i can't find a bug about it in bugzilla either. |
| 22:16 | zcorpan_ | thought it was a known bug |
| 22:17 | <othermaciej> | zcorpan_: please file a bug if there isn't one |
| 22:17 | <zcorpan_> | oh wait, http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3235 |
| 22:17 | <webben> | Hixie, re http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Apr/0108.html |
| 22:18 | <webben> | where could i read your proposal for CSS replacement of " |
| 22:18 | <Hixie> | don't think i ever wrote it down |
| 22:19 | <Hixie> | basically it's ::text-before(/regexp/) or something |
| 22:19 | <webben> | Hixie, Interesting. Do you know how easy or hard that would be to implement? |
| 22:20 | <Hixie> | probably quite hard, pseudo-elements in general are a bitch |
| 22:21 | <Hixie> | i can't believe chris honestly doesn't see how what he's doing is exactly what microsoft keeps doing to sustain their monopolies |
| 22:21 | <Hixie> | sometimes people laugh at "don't be evil", but it's exactly this kind of thing that google's culture prevents |
| 22:22 | webben | wonders what MS have done now... |
| 22:22 | <Hixie> | the versioning thing in the html list |
| 22:27 | <othermaciej> | we do try to build the anonymous rendering strctures needed for CSS tables but there could certainly be bugs |
| 22:28 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: I was going to point out that his citation of Windows and Office does little to dispel fears of acting in bad faith |
| 22:28 | <othermaciej> | but I have not finished reading his essay yet |
| 22:28 | <Hixie> | i will let you finish |
| 22:29 | <othermaciej> | don't let me stop you from ranting -) |
| 22:29 | <othermaciej> | :-) |
| 22:30 | <Hixie> | i'm curious in your opinion unbiased by my rants :-) |
| 22:30 | <ianloic> | it's an interesting read |
| 22:30 | <Hixie> | i already recorded my opinion in replies to his mail |
| 22:31 | <zcorpan_> | oops, sometimes threaded view in opera doesn't reveal the entire three |
| 22:31 | zcorpan_ | responded to something that was already responded to |
| 22:35 | <hasather> | zcorpan_: yea, that bothers me too, the only indication of new mail is that the parent mail becomes bold, but the new mail shouldn't be hidden IMO |
| 22:53 | <zcorpan_> | should i respond to henrik's last email? |
| 22:54 | <zcorpan_> | too late |
| 22:54 | <zcorpan_> | although i could be more specific |
| 22:54 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: kingryan didn't mention the charter |
| 22:54 | <zcorpan_> | indeed |
| 22:55 | kingryan | is lost |
| 22:55 | <kingryan> | are you talking about my email re: implementors vs. authors? |
| 22:56 | <zcorpan_> | no |
| 22:56 | <zcorpan_> | version information |
| 22:56 | <kingryan> | ah, yes |
| 22:56 | <kingryan> | I should have mentioned that too |