| 00:00 | <Jero> | yeah, i noticed, thanks |
| 00:00 | <Jero> | i saw it on your slides i mean :p |
| 00:01 | <Jero> | are there a lot of implementations you know of? or just the 3 you listed on your presentation? |
| 00:03 | <zcorpan_> | http://waffle.wootest.net/2007/05/16/ruby-the-same-token/ |
| 00:03 | <zcorpan_> | not sure where he has the source of that |
| 00:04 | <zcorpan_> | but those are the ones i know of |
| 00:06 | <Jero> | hmm, that's not a lot |
| 00:08 | <zcorpan_> | would be cool to have it implemented in a browser, that would surely find bugs in the spec :) |
| 00:09 | <Jero> | indeed |
| 00:10 | <zcorpan_> | esp if it's used for quirks mode |
| 00:11 | <Jero> | but html5lib could be used to download a collection of pages to parse it, right? |
| 00:11 | <zcorpan_> | sure |
| 00:12 | <zcorpan_> | or at least the parsing bit :) |
| 00:12 | <Jero> | or do you mean that you want to actually see how those websites are displayed? |
| 00:12 | <Jero> | ah ok :p |
| 00:12 | <Jero> | yeah, for that it'll become a bit hard with just html5lib |
| 00:13 | <zcorpan_> | i mean to have a downloadable build of firefox that has a real html5 parser, to see how many people compain about their sites broke in the new firefox |
| 00:13 | <zcorpan_> | just using firefox as an example |
| 00:14 | <zcorpan_> | for instance, we might find that the parsing spec actually has to take <script><!--</script>--></script> into account |
| 00:15 | <Jero> | yeah, having a Firefox build with an html5 parser would be awesome |
| 00:15 | <zcorpan_> | or actually, firefox already doesn't do that for standards mode. let's see if there are any bug reports on that |
| 00:21 | <zcorpan_> | hmm, the <script><!--</script>--></script> might include some reparsing stories currently. what do you do with <script><!--</script>x</script>EOF ? |
| 00:21 | <zcorpan_> | (or just <script><!--</script>x EOF) |
| 00:24 | <zcorpan_> | https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=311128 |
| 00:25 | <Jero> | hmm, i wish i couldn't test what ph5p does with that, but I've added 1000 lines of untested code today, so i need to get rid of all the syntax errors first :p |
| 00:33 | <zcorpan_> | there are some dups of document.write('</script>'); not working in mozilla, even though it's only in standards mode |
| 00:33 | <Jero> | yup, it's annoying |
| 00:34 | <zcorpan_> | that suggests to me that trying to remove support for pseudo-comments in quirks mode won't work |
| 00:34 | <zcorpan_> | and we will have to spec it |
| 00:34 | <Jero> | yeah, i think you're right |
| 01:03 | <Jero> | hey i got to go |
| 01:03 | <Jero> | see ya |
| 09:41 | <MikeSmith> | playing around with setting up a Venus-based aggregator |
| 09:42 | <MikeSmith> | question: What's a reasonable time interval for running the script that checks for updates to blogs? |
| 09:42 | <MikeSmith> | every 30 minutes? once an hour? |
| 09:43 | <annevk> | hourly and please do check for 304 and such :) |
| 09:44 | <annevk> | I guess Sam has support for that... |
| 09:48 | <annevk> | What is actually the reason for not allowing both block and inline in the same element? |
| 09:48 | <annevk> | Besides that it doesn't look good |
| 09:55 | <MikeSmith> | annevk - where are block and inline in the same element prohibited |
| 09:55 | <MikeSmith> | (and I'm just using Venus off-the-shelf so I hope Sam does have it set up for 304s and such) |
| 09:56 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: pretty much everything that used to be %Flow is now bimorphic |
| 09:58 | <hsivonen> | annevk: what's your take on my editor-related conformance/bimorphic idea? http://intertwingly.net/blog/2007/05/08/Dont-Break-The-Web#c1178698369 |
| 09:58 | <hsivonen> | I'd be *very* interested in hearing Hixie's design rationale, though. |
| 09:59 | <annevk> | me too |
| 10:00 | <annevk> | See http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200705/use_only_blocklevel_elements_in_blockquotes/#comment57 |
| 10:05 | <annevk> | hsivonen, why don't you support file upload? |
| 10:05 | <annevk> | your validator |
| 10:18 | <mpt> | "Fundamentally, I believe that the current state (where HTML is functionally a subset of XHTML, but operationally, HTML is more robust than XHTML) is unstable." |
| 10:20 | <othermaciej> | XHTML is functional? |
| 10:21 | <mpt> | You know that's not what he means |
| 10:23 | <othermaciej> | I don't know who you're quoting or what the context is |
| 10:23 | <othermaciej> | I was just trying to make a snide remark |
| 10:23 | <mpt> | Sam Ruby, http://intertwingly.net/blog/2007/05/08/Dont-Break-The-Web#c1179440845 |
| 10:23 | <mpt> | and I agree |
| 10:24 | <mpt> | That XHTML but not HTML can have lists inside paragraphs is unfortunately unavoidable. That XHTML but not HTML can have MathML or SVG is just ... wrong. |
| 10:25 | <othermaciej> | we definitely need a way to embed other languages in non-X HTML |
| 10:25 | <hsivonen> | annevk: the reason why I don't have file upload is that I had prioritized my thesis. And now I am prioritizing the parser. |
| 10:25 | <othermaciej> | SVG probably matters more than MathML to be honest |
| 10:25 | <annevk> | That's definitely the wrong way to go around things, hsivonen. You should priortize around my needs :) |
| 10:26 | <mpt> | othermaciej, agreed |
| 10:26 | <annevk> | I'm still not quite convinced that embedding SVG inside HTML (or XHTML for that matter) is a good idea |
| 10:26 | <mpt> | In the meantime, there will be a lot of <canvas> used where SVG would be more useful-in-the-long-term |
| 10:26 | <hsivonen> | annevk: out of curiosity, why do you need file upload? don't you have your stuff on an HTTP server somewhere? |
| 10:27 | <mpt> | (or some less crackful vector format, I'm not choosing SVG specifically) |
| 10:27 | <hsivonen> | annevk: Lachy wanted data: URIs which are easier UI-wise ;-) |
| 10:29 | <hsivonen> | annevk: I really think we need to put aside theoretical purity regarding SVG being presentational and figure out how to achieve feature parity with the XML serialization here |
| 10:29 | <annevk> | hsivonen, my XML5 spec is not uploaded somewhere so far |
| 10:30 | <hsivonen> | annevk: FWIW, when upload happens, raw POST is likely to happen before form-based upload |
| 10:31 | <hsivonen> | (Since raw POST is again UI-neutral) |
| 10:31 | <othermaciej> | annevk: well, the other option is to replicate enough useful vector graphics features in HTML+CSS |
| 10:32 | <hsivonen> | I haven't figured out yet how to do file uploads at the same server URI while keeping the UI clean even without JavaScript toggles |
| 10:33 | <hsivonen> | annevk: anyway, part of my procrastination is that I want to get the UI Right and I want to get the server side Right and I'm not yet sure how to get the UI Right. |
| 10:34 | <hsivonen> | annevk: I try hard to avoid adding to the form widgetry in the UI |
| 10:35 | <hsivonen> | annevk: with file upload reality says I can't trust Content-Type. would you like me to sniff or to force you to pick the parsing mode manually? |
| 10:36 | <hsivonen> | (with raw POST I'm going to respect the Content-Type and make setting it your problem) |
| 10:40 | <annevk> | othermaciej, yeah, I've seen propposals to that effect |
| 10:40 | <annevk> | hsivonen, with file upload sniffing the file extensions seems like a bettter solution |
| 10:41 | <hsivonen> | annevk: would it be useful to you if I implemented raw POST that you could POST a local file to without form encoding using the tool of your choice (curl, your own Python script, whatever)? |
| 10:41 | <hsivonen> | annevk: ok |
| 10:41 | hsivonen | looks up man curl |
| 10:42 | annevk | was joking with the prioritizing above |
| 10:42 | annevk | could use curl given the site provides example usage :) |
| 10:48 | hsivonen | wonders if it is legal to have a query string in a POST URI |
| 10:48 | <hsivonen> | (as far as HTTP goes regardless of browsers) |
| 11:03 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: I finally managed to get an N800. :-) |
| 11:06 | <annevk> | othermaciej, another thing is XBL |
| 11:06 | <annevk> | that helps with integrating as well and doesn't pollute semantics |
| 11:06 | <annevk> | hsivonen, afaik query strings are just part of a URI (as opposed to fragment identifiers, which are special) |
| 11:07 | <hsivonen> | annevk: ok. excellent. we'll see if the servlet API thinks so too |
| 11:16 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen - great to hear you got an N800 |
| 11:16 | <MikeSmith> | can you get me one too? and/or an N95? |
| 11:17 | <hsivonen> | sorry, it was hard enough to get this one |
| 11:18 | <kfish> | hi hsivonen, maikmerten, MikeSmith |
| 11:18 | <hsivonen> | kfish: hi |
| 11:19 | <maikmerten> | hi |
| 11:20 | <hendry> | hsivonen: what is the main browser on the N800? the webkit "Web" ? |
| 11:20 | <hsivonen> | hendry: Opera 8.6 engine with Nokia UI. |
| 11:22 | <hsivonen> | hendry: the UI is in SVN. the engine seems to come as a binary from Opera Software, so it is hard for even Nokia to offer the new engine for the old hardware revision |
| 11:24 | <MikeSmith> | kfish - hei. got to catch a train from Kanagawa back to Tokyo. back on around 10pm JST |
| 11:24 | <hsivonen> | hendry: Minomo should be available though. it's been a while since I've tried Minimo for Maemo, so I don't know if it is now even usable |
| 11:24 | <kfish> | MikeSmith, cool, l8r |
| 11:36 | <hendry> | hsivonen: have you used the Webkit "Web" one? |
| 11:37 | <hendry> | i wonder if it has a better name.. |
| 11:39 | <hsivonen> | hendry: I've tried the S60 port. I have not tried the Gtk port. And I can't get anyone who works on Maemo to say anything about the Gtk port. |
| 11:40 | <hsivonen> | hendry: it looks like the Gtk port is dead |
| 11:40 | <hsivonen> | hendry: but no one knows or dares to speculate |
| 11:41 | <hsivonen> | hendry: besides, it looks like the Gtk port was a research center thing and not a product thing |
| 11:41 | <hendry> | i built minimo ages ago |
| 11:41 | <hendry> | and I have not seen much 'movement' |
| 11:42 | <hendry> | I find the Webkit one more interesting |
| 11:42 | <hendry> | as I like it on my E65 for one |
| 11:42 | <hendry> | And I my flat mate Andrei wrote it :) |
| 20:10 | <Jero> | For those who care: I've updated my parser http://jero.net/lab/ph5p/ to a real parser, instead of implementing only a small part of it |
| 20:10 | <Jero> | though it's still needs some work, not every phase of the tree construction process has been implemented, only from the initial phase until the in body insertion mode |
| 20:11 | <Jero> | all modes from in table to after frameset still need to implemented |
| 20:11 | zcorpan_ | looks |
| 20:11 | <Jero> | I've also grabbed the tests from html5lib and tested them: http://jero.net/lab/ph5p/tests.html |
| 20:12 | <Jero> | green: pass; red: sux; black: could not be tested because some of its elements are not yet implemented |
| 20:12 | <zcorpan_> | what is the output, html5? |
| 20:13 | annevk | notes that http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Example_simple is non-conforming |
| 20:13 | <Jero> | the output is a DOMDocument class |
| 20:13 | <Jero> | it's a native PHP class |
| 20:13 | <zcorpan_> | i mean in the "output" textarea |
| 20:13 | <zcorpan_> | annevk: yeah, probably also inappropriate use of <address> |
| 20:14 | <Jero> | the output is html5 |
| 20:14 | <zcorpan_> | Jero: where do the linebreaks come from? |
| 20:15 | <Jero> | are you testing the code Anne linked to? |
| 20:15 | <Jero> | hmm, and that domdocument class also inserts its own linebreaks |
| 20:16 | <Jero> | "<p>h<p>m<p>m" outputs: |
| 20:16 | <Jero> | <html> |
| 20:16 | <Jero> | <head></head> |
| 20:16 | <Jero> | <body> |
| 20:16 | <Jero> | <p>h</p> |
| 20:16 | <Jero> | <p>m</p> |
| 20:16 | <Jero> | <p>m</p> |
| 20:16 | <Jero> | </body> |
| 20:16 | <Jero> | </html> |
| 20:17 | <annevk> | Maybe we should come up with some alternative arguments for the headers= debate. 1) They are supported. 2) Who is going to use them? 3) They are not used right now, who says they will be used in the future? 4) Don't we have a better solution? 5) We do. Defined algorithms and using scope= in case that doesn't work. |
| 20:17 | <zcorpan_> | Jero: right, it should output <html><head></head><body><p>h</p><p>m</p><p>m</p></body></html> |
| 20:17 | <zcorpan_> | no line breaks |
| 20:17 | <Jero> | yeah i know |
| 20:18 | <Jero> | i'm looking into it right now |
| 20:18 | <zcorpan_> | k |
| 20:18 | <zcorpan_> | Jero: noticed that you don't parse / in tags correctly too |
| 20:19 | <Jero> | oh yeah, you're right |
| 20:21 | <Jero> | i've added it to the tests (3rd entry) |
| 20:26 | zcorpan_ | fixed http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Example_simple |
| 20:30 | <zcorpan_> | Jero: you move <style> to HEAD, which you shouldn't, and the contents of STYLE are moved to the BODY, which they shouldn't |
| 20:30 | <Jero> | i know, the implementation of style and script elements is messed up at the moment |
| 20:30 | <Jero> | that's why all tests with either of the two elements always fail |
| 20:30 | <zcorpan_> | ok |
| 20:31 | <zcorpan_> | oh, seems like <style> is parsed as an empty element by ph5p |
| 20:57 | <Jero> | well, i got to go |
| 20:57 | <Jero> | thanks for your input! |
| 20:57 | <Jero> | i'll try to get some improvements up tomorrow |
| 20:57 | <Jero> | later |
| 20:57 | <zcorpan_> | cya |