| 00:00 | <annevk> | browsers should follow that roughly (with the caveats mentioned earlier) |
| 00:01 | <annevk> | when that's integrated with HTML5 it will be more detailed I suspect although it's pretty clear already |
| 01:30 | <zcorpan_> | "It adds semantic richness, and that's valuable for its own sake" -- http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3413761#post3413761 |
| 01:33 | <Philip`> | The unquoted second part of that sentence doesn't seem to agree with the first part, since it talks about adding semantic richness for the sake of enhanced behaviour from future UAs instead of just for its own sake |
| 01:34 | <zcorpan_> | yeah |
| 01:34 | <zcorpan_> | indeed |
| 01:34 | <Philip`> | That's still a kind of tenuous theoretical sake, though |
| 01:35 | <om_food> | rel vs. rev is so brain-hurtingly confusing |
| 01:37 | <Philip`> | Need to work on a Brain 5, to fix the problems that today's legacy brains have with understanding really complex things |
| 01:38 | <zcorpan_> | Brain 5 must be backwards compatible, otherwise it won't be adopted |
| 01:43 | <karlUshi> | om_food: what is the result of "7./2."? |
| 01:45 | <karlUshi> | there's a new apple member in the HTML WG. Adam Roben |
| 01:45 | <karlUshi> | http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=40318&public=1&order=org |
| 01:45 | <othermaciej> | karlUshi: 3.5? |
| 01:46 | <karlUshi> | yes othermaciej |
| 01:47 | <karlUshi> | :) my point is when we were at school, starting to learn division of rational numbers. It was hard. There was a learning curve. |
| 01:47 | <karlUshi> | HTML has very simple things (though markup languages are difficult for most people) and there are features a bit more complex and it just takes time to learn. |
| 01:48 | <Dashiva> | It used to be 3 1/2 for a few years, then it became 3.5 |
| 01:48 | <karlUshi> | cf. <om_food> rel vs. rev is so brain-hurtingly confusing |
| 01:51 | <othermaciej> | karlUshi: rel vs. rev is more in the realm of path integrals than rational division |
| 01:51 | <othermaciej> | even experts have a hard time |
| 01:51 | <zcorpan_> | 399 invited experts |
| 01:52 | <karlUshi> | othermaciej: yes, it takes time to learn things and be a *pro* |
| 01:54 | <karlUshi> | it reminds me of http://www.molly.com/2005/11/14/web-standards-and-the-new-professionalism/ |
| 03:07 | <zcorpan_> | damn, it's hard to test <noscript> when the tools you have at your disposal to inspect the DOM is javascript |
| 03:07 | <zcorpan_> | s/tools/tool/ |
| 03:10 | <Philip`> | Disable JS, load the page, reenable JS, click the scripted DOM-inspection button on the page? |
| 03:10 | Philip` | isn't sure exactly what happens when you toggle JS |
| 03:12 | <zcorpan_> | yeah. don't have such a button in ie7 though, and i can't figure out how to actually disable js in ie7 (i thought it was "Active Scripting")... and i don't trust the web dev toolbar in ie7 |
| 03:15 | <zcorpan_> | oh, the setting doesn't apply to local files, apparently |
| 03:18 | <zcorpan> | input document: <!doctype html><head><noscript>X</noscript></head><body>Y</body> |
| 03:18 | <zcorpan> | .innerHTML on the root element: <HEAD><NOSCRIPT></HEAD> |
| 03:18 | <zcorpan> | <BODY>X</NOSCRIPT>Y</BODY> |
| 03:19 | <Philip`> | That looks nice and tree-like |
| 03:22 | <zcorpan> | i guess it makes sense to pop the noscript when it contains non-HEAD content, and then treat it as if it was found in HEAD |
| 03:22 | <zcorpan> | i.e., .innerHTML being <head><noscript></noscript></head><body>XY</body> |
| 03:42 | <zcorpan> | http://simon.html5.org/test/html/parsing/noscript-in-head/ |
| 04:57 | <Hixie> | zcorpan: your proposal for parsing <noscript> wouldn't allow round-tripping of valid dacuments, which is a requirement |
| 04:57 | <Hixie> | oh wait |
| 04:57 | <Hixie> | actually |
| 04:57 | <Hixie> | it would |
| 04:57 | <Hixie> | well... |
| 04:57 | Hixie | ponders |
| 04:57 | <Hixie> | what you proposed probably wouldn't but there are ways around it i guess |
| 04:57 | <Hixie> | hm |
| 05:00 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: i don't follow, what is the problem? |
| 05:01 | <Hixie> | nothing |
| 05:01 | <Hixie> | just thinking out loud |
| 05:01 | <zcorpan> | oh, ok |
| 05:01 | <Hixie> | sorry :-) |
| 05:01 | <zcorpan> | no worries :) |
| 09:52 | <Jero> | I've been reading Lachy's article about the <b> and <i> elements and I can't help thinking "then what about <u>, <s>, <strike>, and <big>!?" |
| 09:52 | <Jero> | I know they're deprecated in HTML 4 and all, but the reason for keeping <b> and <i> would IMO also apply to those elements. |
| 09:58 | <othermaciej> | the official reasoning in the HTML5 spec for what elements are kept is that they can represent useful semantics associated with the given default presentation |
| 09:59 | <Jero> | then so can the <u> element, right? |
| 10:01 | <othermaciej> | <u> is not used for any common typographical conventions in typeset text |
| 10:01 | <othermaciej> | (underline rather) |
| 10:03 | <Jero> | but the underline also hints that the text somehow has a different meaning than the rest of the text |
| 10:05 | <hsivonen> | does Python come with a standard library that allows me to spider the Web Forms 2.0 test suite without invoking wget? |
| 10:06 | <virtuelv> | hsivonen: I can't think of anything offhand, but would http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi/spider.py/0.5 help? |
| 10:06 | <hsivonen> | Jero: fwiw, I'd like to keep <u> for the use cases that <m> has been created for |
| 10:07 | <hsivonen> | virtuelv: thanks. the point of avoiding wget is avoiding any non-default stuff, though |
| 10:12 | hsivonen | hacks up something quick and dirty |
| 10:15 | <KevinMarks> | hsivonen: you can use urllib |
| 10:15 | <KevinMarks> | see diveintopython.org for examples |
| 10:15 | <hsivonen> | KevinMarks: thanks |
| 10:16 | hsivonen | didn't know urllib can spider |
| 10:17 | <KevinMarks> | well, depends what you mean by spider |
| 10:17 | <KevinMarks> | http://diveintopython.org/html_processing/index.html is an overview |
| 10:18 | <KevinMarks> | though if it's a hack and not some performance fest, use BeautifulSoup |
| 10:20 | <hsivonen> | KevinMarks: I only want to grab a local copy of Anne's Web Forms 2.0 test suite without invoking anything that users don't get by installing a vanilla *nix system and python |
| 10:20 | <hsivonen> | KevinMarks: the diveintopython stuff is what I need. thanks |
| 10:20 | <KevinMarks> | ah, right, no parsing |
| 10:21 | <KevinMarks> | http://diveintopython.org/http_web_services/index.html is the right place to start then |
| 10:22 | <KevinMarks> | http://diveintopython.org/http_web_services/review.html specifically ;) |
| 10:24 | <hsivonen> | KevinMarks: yeah, I have the single url download case covered already. need to traverse the directories, though |
| 10:25 | <hsivonen> | which is what the html_processing example shows |
| 10:25 | <virtuelv> | hsivonen: why do you want to avoid wget? |
| 10:25 | <KevinMarks> | markp++ |
| 10:25 | <hsivonen> | virtuelv: Mac OS X doesn't have wget by default |
| 10:25 | <virtuelv> | ah |
| 10:25 | <virtuelv> | neither does windows, for that matter |
| 10:35 | <Jero> | hsivonen: yeah, keeping <u> instead of <m> seems reasonable |
| 10:36 | <Jero> | but still, keeping those presentational elements because the can represent useful semantics associated with the given default presentation still seems a bit odd to me |
| 10:36 | <Jero> | heck, even <blink> would fall under that |
| 10:41 | <MikeSmith> | kfish - PechaKuchaNight tonight in Tokyo |
| 10:42 | <MikeSmith> | http://www.tokyoartbeat.com/event/2007/EE5B |
| 10:42 | <MikeSmith> | volume 42 |
| 10:42 | <kfish> | MikeSmith, sweet |
| 10:43 | <MikeSmith> | you should come up and do a web-designer-friendly 20x20 overview of Annodex some time |
| 10:43 | <kfish> | MikeSmith, sounds good :-) |
| 10:46 | <hsivonen> | hendry: did you see Ari Jaaksi's blog post from May 15th about Mobile Web being dead? |
| 10:46 | <virtuelv> | hsivonen: url? |
| 10:47 | <hsivonen> | virtuelv: http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/2007/05/mobile-is-dead.html |
| 10:47 | <virtuelv> | ty |
| 10:48 | <hendry> | hsivonen: no I haven't, will read. |
| 11:05 | <hendry> | hsivonen: i left a comment |
| 11:29 | <hendry> | hsivonen: do you anything about fonts? |
| 11:29 | <hendry> | :) |
| 11:29 | <hsivonen> | hendry: I know about fonts but I'm not doing anything about fonts |
| 11:30 | <hendry> | I was wondering how fonts like Dejavu and perhaps VeraSansYuanTi gets treated by CSS |
| 11:30 | <mikeday> | font-family: DejaVu Sans; |
| 11:31 | <hendry> | or how rather Firefox chooses the fonts |
| 11:31 | <hsivonen> | hendry: depends on the UA and the font back end I guess |
| 11:31 | <hendry> | as i don't expect Web authors to do a "font-family: DejaVu Sans;" |
| 11:31 | <hsivonen> | hendry: why not? without testing, I'd expecting Safari to support that |
| 11:31 | <mikeday> | use @font-face to map "sans-serif" to "DejaVu Sans" :) |
| 11:31 | <hendry> | aren't Web authors supposed to choose a family or something? instead of an actualy named font |
| 11:32 | <hsivonen> | hendry: DejaVu Sans is a font family in CSS terms |
| 11:32 | <hendry> | where can i read further about this? is the a CSS font doc I wonder |
| 11:33 | <hsivonen> | mikeday: speaking of CSS fonts and DejaVu: for some reason, prince didn't find the DejaVu fonts in /Library/Fonts. I had to install them in prince's own font dir and edit fonts.css |
| 11:33 | <mikeday> | there are the standard families: serif, sans-serif, cursive, monospace |
| 11:34 | <mikeday> | hsivonen, can other MacOS X apps see them? |
| 11:35 | <hendry> | i wonder if there is some firefox option to show all the registered fonts? |
| 11:35 | <hendry> | on the system. |
| 11:36 | <mikeday> | Font Book or \Windows\Fonts or whatever depending on platform |
| 11:37 | <mikeday> | it's not really a browser-specific thing |
| 11:38 | <hendry> | well, just to know what Firefox (on the system) sees when it comes to fonts, not so much the system |
| 11:39 | <hendry> | gosh, did that make any sense :) |
| 11:39 | <mikeday> | yeah, that makes sense |
| 11:39 | <mikeday> | when you run prince --debug it prints a list of all the fonts that it can see |
| 11:39 | <hendry> | mikeday: you wrote Prince? |
| 11:39 | <mikeday> | ie. all the fonts that show up when it asks the OS: "Which fonts are installed?" |
| 11:40 | <mikeday> | well, the easy bits :) |
| 11:40 | <mikeday> | (and the font system, which is a nasty bit, I guess) |
| 11:40 | <hendry> | mikeday: it's pretty cool. :) |
| 11:41 | <mikeday> | thank you, I'm glad you like it :) |
| 11:45 | <mikeday> | funny thing about the default font families is that you can't mix and match them |
| 11:45 | <mikeday> | eg. font-family: serif monospace; |
| 11:46 | <hendry> | mikeday: http://static.natalian.org/2007-05-30/fc-list_monty.txt http://static.natalian.org/2007-05-30/monty-fonts.txt |
| 11:46 | <mikeday> | the presence of serifs is orthogonal to monospacing |
| 11:46 | <hendry> | fc-list seems to pick up more. what is fc-list doing I wonder? |
| 11:46 | <hendry> | are the 'standard families' et al documented somewhere? |
| 11:46 | <mikeday> | it is probably including PostScript Type 1 fonts, which Prince doesn't support yet |
| 11:47 | <mikeday> | all the fonts that Prince lists should be TrueType fonts |
| 11:47 | <mikeday> | http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/fonts.html#generic-font-families |
| 11:47 | <hendry> | monty$ wc -l monty-fonts.txt fc-list_monty.txt |
| 11:47 | <hendry> | 63 monty-fonts.txt |
| 11:47 | <hendry> | 179 fc-list_monty.txt |
| 11:48 | <mikeday> | rather Latin-centric, the standard font families |
| 11:48 | <mikeday> | they might as well be named Times, Helvetica, and Courier; it'd be less typing |
| 11:49 | <hendry> | mikeday: dejavu isn't mentioned on http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/fonts.html#generic-font-families |
| 11:49 | <mikeday> | no, as DejaVu is an actual font, derived from Bitstream Vera |
| 11:49 | <mikeday> | not a generic abstract font family, as defined by CSS |
| 11:50 | <mikeday> | "sans-serif" is not a physical font, it's a placeholder for any number of actual fonts |
| 11:50 | <mikeday> | (that don't have serifs, hopefully) |
| 11:50 | <hendry> | this is a science ... |
| 11:57 | <mikeday> | possibly the most useless generic font family is "fantasy" |
| 11:57 | <mikeday> | useless because it doesn't map to any obvious Microsoft Core font :) |
| 11:57 | <hendry> | i find it confusing that actual font can be in font-family like "font-family: DejaVu Sans;" |
| 11:58 | <hendry> | mikeday: do you have exp with CJK fonts? esp. Chinese? |
| 11:58 | <mikeday> | a little |
| 11:58 | <mikeday> | I use the Arphic fonts |
| 12:00 | <hendry> | afaik there a four free chinese fonts ttf-arphic-ukai ttf-arphic-uming ttf-fireflysung xfonts-wqy |
| 12:00 | <mikeday> | the arphic font pack includes several fonts |
| 12:00 | <mikeday> | eg. traditional + simplified variants |
| 12:01 | <mikeday> | hmm, actually, they're each in separate packages now it seems |
| 12:01 | <hendry> | is it actually used out there? compared to proprietary simsun or VeraSansYuanTi? |
| 12:01 | <mikeday> | ttf-arphic-gbsn00lp, ttf-arphic-gkai00mp for the simplified ones |
| 12:01 | <mikeday> | I have no idea, but I would guess that most Chinese websites are designed for Microsoft fonts |
| 12:02 | <hendry> | damn, this is hard. :) |
| 12:03 | <mikeday> | what are you trying to do, actually? |
| 12:03 | <hendry> | build an OS http://webconverger.com/ |
| 12:03 | <hendry> | that doesn't suck for the Chinese market :) |
| 12:04 | <hsivonen> | mikeday: yeah, Font Book saw them |
| 12:04 | <mikeday> | define OS? |
| 12:04 | <mikeday> | hsivonen, they are probably getting silently dropped by Prince for some reason |
| 12:05 | <mikeday> | Prince 6.0 rev 2 includes a fix for some font issues on MacOS X, and extra debug info |
| 12:05 | <mikeday> | (see Prince development roadmap http://www.princexml.com/roadmap/ ) |
| 12:05 | <hsivonen> | mikeday: ok. I didn't know about --debug nor about a roadmap. thanks |
| 12:06 | <hsivonen> | mikeday: I'm on Mac OS X 10.4.9 |
| 12:06 | <mikeday> | the roadmap is new, it's an experiment in being open to our users :) |
| 12:06 | <hendry> | mikeday: based on Debian. boots up kernel. detects hardware, launches X and Firefox (Webconverger) |
| 12:06 | <mikeday> | so it's like a distro for web kiosks |
| 12:07 | <mikeday> | and you're wondering what packages you need to include? |
| 12:07 | <hendry> | mikeday: http://flickr.com/photos/hendry/521334985/ |
| 12:07 | <hendry> | mikeday: yes, exactly |
| 12:07 | <hendry> | mikeday: though I've lived out in CJK |
| 12:08 | <hendry> | and I know that they're really fussy about the fonts. |
| 12:08 | <mikeday> | hmm, sina.com.cn looks better than that when I load it here |
| 12:08 | <mikeday> | try installing all the arphic fonts |
| 12:09 | <hendry> | ok, though will Firefox use them I wonder. |
| 12:09 | <hendry> | I think that test rendering looks pretty bad myself :) |
| 12:10 | <mikeday> | it should use them if they are installed properly, otherwise might need some Fontconfig tweaking |
| 12:13 | <hendry> | mikeday: ok, i'll try a build out later. Webconverger is totally free software btw http://svn.debian.org/wsvn/debian-live/configs/webconverger-cn/config/chroot_local-packageslists/locale?op=file&rev=0&sc=0 |
| 12:13 | <hendry> | mikeday: thanks for your help, I need to get busy on other stuff |
| 12:13 | mikeday | waves |
| 12:56 | hsivonen | tries to figure out the most robust way to track which files in the Opera test suite are expected to be conforming and which ones are expected to be non-conforming |
| 15:29 | <gsnedders> | markp: you see my email about having non ASCII superset encoded autodiscovery tests? |
| 15:49 | <markp> | gsnedders: no |
| 15:49 | <markp> | checking |
| 15:50 | <gsnedders> | markp: it was a while ago. |
| 15:51 | <markp> | doesn't mean anything |
| 15:52 | <gsnedders> | markp: what doesn't? the date? the email? something else? |
| 15:52 | <markp> | found it |
| 15:52 | <markp> | er, the fact that it was a while ago <-- doesn't mean anything |
| 15:52 | <markp> | i'm months behind on email |
| 15:52 | <gsnedders> | ah |
| 15:52 | <markp> | ah, from november? |
| 15:53 | <gsnedders> | markp: 20th Feb |
| 15:53 | <markp> | hmm |
| 15:53 | <markp> | aha |
| 15:53 | <markp> | found it |
| 15:53 | <gsnedders> | I talked to you about the nov one a while ago, probably in Jan or so |
| 15:54 | <gsnedders> | I was just thinking of something like UTF-16 |
| 15:54 | <markp> | i can do utf-16 |
| 15:54 | <gsnedders> | as I say, it'll break my implementation for one |
| 15:54 | <markp> | excellent |
| 15:55 | <gsnedders> | and that's part of the point of tests :P |
| 15:56 | <markp> | did you want the html or the xml in utf-16? |
| 15:56 | <markp> | or both? |
| 15:56 | <gsnedders> | the HTML |
| 15:57 | <gsnedders> | anything apart from plain ASCII XML I think should be in the Atom test case (and my implementation copes with that, just not the HTML) |
| 15:57 | <gsnedders> | my feeling is the XML should be kept as simple as possible, as it's really the ability to get the <link> in the HTML that's being tested |
| 16:00 | <markp> | bah |
| 16:28 | <markp> | http://diveintomark.org/tests/client/autodiscovery/html4-057.html |
| 16:28 | <markp> | i suppose i should add a whole bunch of tests for the new rel="feed" too |
| 16:31 | <virtuelv> | heh. I see lowsrc="" is making a return in the form of 'cite' |
| 16:31 | <virtuelv> | (yes, I realise that there's a difference) |
| 16:40 | <gsnedders> | markp: heh. what I didn't realise before is that we now can't actually find the <link rel="next> either now :P |
| 16:41 | <markp> | yeah, i had to fix that in my atomautodiscovery.py test harness too |
| 16:42 | <markp> | to make it easy for you, every html and xhtml file is guaranteed to have a content-type with a charset parameter |
| 16:42 | <markp> | so you can cheat a little |
| 16:43 | <gsnedders> | I don't think I'll get the fix in 1.0, as it requires changing quite a bit, and most of that stuff is already meant to go into 1.1 |
| 16:43 | <gsnedders> | so unlikely to be fixed till the end of the year in a stable release |
| 22:41 | <Hixie> | i'm really quite amused by the way the headers="" discussion is still going on |
| 23:05 | <rxKaffee> | is there any data on html5 support in netscape? |
| 23:06 | <rxKaffee> | netscape 8 is based on firefox, so... maybe some support? |
| 23:07 | <jruderman> | i imagine it's the same as in whatever gecko version it uses |
| 23:07 | <gsnedders> | 1.7.x, IIRC |
| 23:07 | <gsnedders> | which was what version of Fx? 1.0? |
| 23:08 | <zcorpan_> | gsnedders: yeah |
| 23:09 | <rxKaffee> | so you mean html5 was added to gecko in 1.7, and netscape uses geko 1.0? |
| 23:10 | <zcorpan_> | rxKaffee: what do you mean with "html5 was added"? |
| 23:10 | <zcorpan_> | rxKaffee: gsnedders said that netscape 8 uses gecko 1.7.x (the same as firefox 1.0) |
| 23:10 | <rxKaffee> | ah,ok |
| 23:11 | <gsnedders> | so it'll support as much as Firefox 1.0 does |
| 23:12 | <rxKaffee> | gecko/20070321 == gecko 1.7? |
| 23:12 | <zcorpan_> | rxKaffee: no |
| 23:12 | <rxKaffee> | oh, that is what netscape 8 reports |
| 23:13 | <rxKaffee> | 20070321 |
| 23:13 | <zcorpan_> | really? |
| 23:13 | <rxKaffee> | ummm, netscape 8.1.3 I mean |
| 23:13 | <rxKaffee> | mmm |
| 23:13 | <zcorpan_> | i didn't think gecko 1.7 was updated anymore |
| 23:13 | <rxKaffee> | it also says 1.7.5 |
| 23:15 | <Philip`> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netscape_Browser seems to indicate it was based on Firefox 1.0.x until that stopped being maintained, and now it's just (presumably updated) versions of Gecko 1.7.5 |
| 23:15 | <gsnedders> | it'll just be updated versions of Gecko 1.7 |
| 23:15 | <gsnedders> | whether the patches go upstream or not is another matter |
| 23:20 | <rxKaffee> | hmm, so prb ditch netscape |
| 23:20 | <rxKaffee> | ok, thanks guys :) |
| 23:21 | <gsnedders> | othermaciej: does Safari pay any attention to <ttl> in RSS feeds? |
| 23:22 | <othermaciej> | gsnedders: I don't know |
| 23:23 | <gsnedders> | othermaciej: can you find out easily, or not? |
| 23:24 | <othermaciej> | gsnedders: I can ask the people who implement the system framework that implements feed handling, or I can try to find the code somewhere in apple's source control |
| 23:25 | <gsnedders> | othermaciej: if you have any spare time, could you? |
| 23:32 | gsnedders | awaits the arrival of [3]markp |
| 23:32 | <gsnedders> | you aren't having a good day with web access, are you? :P |
| 23:33 | <othermaciej> | gsnedders: I actually don't have any spare time and a big backlog of tasks, so I can only really queue this one up if it is particularly important |
| 23:33 | <othermaciej> | gsnedders: on #webkit on FreeNode you may be able to find someone who knows |
| 23:34 | <gsnedders> | othermaciej: ah, don't worry then |