| 01:16 | <zcorpan_> | Hixie: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4329.txt |
| 01:21 | <Hixie> | oh is that what he was referring to |
| 01:21 | <Hixie> | interesting |
| 02:02 | <Hixie> | is "01/01/1970 00:00:00" any sort of standard date format? |
| 02:05 | <gavin> | mysql DATETIME? |
| 02:05 | <Hixie> | hm |
| 02:05 | <gavin> | hmm, no I guess that uses dashes, not slashes |
| 02:05 | <Hixie> | i was hoping for some RFC or something |
| 02:05 | <Hixie> | oh well |
| 02:05 | <Hixie> | it's not a format i recognise as being standard |
| 02:05 | <Hixie> | (it's the format document.lastModified uses) |
| 02:13 | <zcorpan_> | new Date() return slightly different things in opera vs firefox/ie7 |
| 02:13 | <zcorpan_> | opera has a comma after the weekday |
| 02:14 | <zcorpan_> | firefox/ie7 don't |
| 02:14 | <Hixie> | nice |
| 02:14 | <zcorpan_> | or well, there are more differences actually |
| 02:15 | <zcorpan_> | Fri Jun 1 03:23:36 UTC+0200 2007 (ie7) |
| 02:16 | <gavin> | hmm, we changed the format for lastModified Firefox 1.5 |
| 02:16 | <gavin_> | https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99224 |
| 02:16 | <Hixie> | does it match what i put in teh spec? |
| 02:16 | <gavin_> | - CopyASCIItoUCS2(NS_LITERAL_CSTRING("January 1, 1970 GMT"), aLastModified); |
| 02:16 | <gavin_> | + aLastModified.Assign(NS_LITERAL_STRING("01/01/1970 00:00:00")); |
| 02:16 | <zcorpan_> | Fri Jun 01 2007 03:23:44 GMT+0200 (firefox) |
| 02:16 | <zcorpan_> | Fri, 01 Jun 2007 03:23:47 GMT+0200 (opera) |
| 02:16 | <gavin_> | the person who changed it didn't change the comment that said "match what ns4.x returned", though :( |
| 02:17 | <Hixie> | so yes |
| 02:19 | <gavin_> | it looks like they were just trying to match IE |
| 02:20 | <zcorpan_> | yeah. opera returns January 1, 1970 GMT |
| 02:20 | <gavin_> | https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107445#c6 |
| 02:22 | <yod> | # # [03:23] <Hixie> it's so sad seeing the w3c validator team try to make itself irrelevant |
| 02:22 | <yod> | how is listening to the decision of the WG in charge "making itself irrelevant"? |
| 02:22 | <yod> | or maybe the problem is that this WG is disagreeing with you? |
| 02:23 | <yod> | thinking like GW Bush is not making the web a favour, you know... |
| 02:23 | <Hixie> | the problem is the WG agreeing with the rest of the planet, and the validation team following them blindly |
| 02:24 | <Hixie> | but luckily we have the html wg now, and the html wg is defining this sanely, so the issue is moot |
| 02:24 | <yod> | then why the insulting comment? |
| 02:24 | <Hixie> | which part is insulting? |
| 02:25 | <yod> | "try to make itself irrelevant" |
| 02:25 | <Hixie> | that's not insulting, that's descriptive |
| 02:25 | <Hixie> | olivier decided to not fix a bug, because the htmlwg contradicted itself and olivier thought it wiser to follow them than to help the validator's users |
| 02:26 | <yod> | I'm olivier, BTW :) |
| 02:26 | <Hixie> | oh. well then i spoke to you just the other day on #html-wg about this. |
| 02:26 | <yod> | and I agreed with you |
| 02:26 | <yod> | on some of the issues |
| 02:27 | <yod> | but it doesn't change the fact that the xhtml WG is in charge of xhtml, and that the validator is supposed to follow what rules they set |
| 02:27 | <Hixie> | they haven't set any actual rules here. they have just made two contradictory non-normative statements. |
| 02:27 | <othermaciej> | the xhtml2 WG is not in charge of the text/html MIME type |
| 02:28 | <othermaciej> | but I'll agree the text/html media type is currently quite poorly specified |
| 02:28 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: the validator is claiming (as i understand it) that its not a text/html validator, it's an html4 and xhtml1 validator |
| 02:28 | <Hixie> | over which the xhtml2 wg does claim ownership |
| 02:30 | <zcorpan_> | does anyone have a pointer to any of this? |
| 02:31 | zcorpan_ | doesn't follow what is being discussed |
| 02:32 | <Hixie> | http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20070531#l-82 |
| 02:33 | karlUshi | thinks that some people would have better behavior in physical meetings than other IRC. |
| 02:43 | <zcorpan_> | Hixie: "Note: The dir attribute on the HTMLDocument interface is defined along with the dom content attribute." -- there is a "dom" content attribute? |
| 02:44 | <Hixie> | oops |
| 02:51 | <zcorpan_> | Hixie: btw, you may need to spec document.embeds too |
| 02:52 | <Hixie> | you know the drill -- send mails ;-) |
| 02:53 | <zcorpan_> | yup :) |
| 06:23 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: where do you keep your character encoding tests? |
| 06:23 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: are they somewhere on damowmow? can't find them on hixie.ch |
| 06:25 | <Hixie> | which ones? |
| 06:25 | <Hixie> | you mean smontagu's? |
| 06:25 | <Hixie> | smontagu.damowmow.com? |
| 06:25 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: IIRC you had some tests when you wrote the encoding sniffing section |
| 06:26 | <Hixie> | that'll be in hixie.ch/tests somewhere |
| 06:26 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: looks like smontagu's tests are what I was about to write. thanks |
| 06:27 | <hsivonen> | http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/encoding/ looks like it |
| 06:28 | <hsivonen> | nah. smontagu's tests lack the C1 range which is what I am interested in |
| 08:42 | <hendry> | am I right in claiming that in some Web designs, that if the font the Web designer used in his design isn't availible and another one is substituted the design can really mess up? |
| 08:42 | <hendry> | like overlapping text et al? |
| 08:42 | <Hixie> | overlapping text shouldn't happen unless the designer in question didn't use 'em' units (e.g. setting line-height in px) |
| 08:43 | <hendry> | Hixie: right |
| 08:43 | <hendry> | though pixel based designs are all too common |
| 08:43 | <hendry> | http://flickr.com/photos/hendry/521334985/ # e.g. of overlapping text |
| 08:51 | <mikeday> | just means you need to install as many fonts as possible, starting with the Microsoft ones |
| 08:52 | <hendry> | mikeday: ah that's a solution I'm trying to avoid :) |
| 08:53 | <hendry> | http://natalian.org/archives/2007/05/31/chinese-font/ |
| 08:53 | <hendry> | for example the ms corefonts don't quite exist in CJK markets |
| 08:54 | <mikeday> | the other option is to hire a typographer to design fonts that match the metrics of the Microsoft fonts |
| 08:54 | <mikeday> | just as the Microsoft fonts were designed to match Times/Helvetica/Courier :) |
| 08:55 | <mikeday> | by the way, DejaVu looks likes Vera 'cos it's designed from Vera |
| 08:55 | <mikeday> | part of the license agreement for Vera is that you have to change the name if you modify it. |
| 08:57 | <mikeday> | Oops, looks like Red Hat is already doing that |
| 08:57 | <mikeday> | "Red Hat contracted with Ascender Corp., one of the leading commercial developers of fonts, to develop a set of fonts that are metrically equivalent to the key Microsoft fonts." |
| 08:58 | <mikeday> | https://www.redhat.com/promo/fonts/ |
| 09:01 | <hsivonen> | hendry: in the case of DejaVu, adding glyphs to Vera as an open source project seems to work |
| 09:03 | <hendry> | hsivonen: could you add that as a comment? Or should I re-edit my rant? :) |
| 09:04 | <hendry> | mikeday: aha |
| 09:04 | <hendry> | mikeday: i also must add that info to the blog entry |
| 09:07 | <jruderman> | i hope that isn't a font called "Serif". that would screw with http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/fonts.html#serif-def |
| 09:07 | <hendry> | hsivonen: ok, i have updated the blog entry, so no need to comment |
| 09:27 | <mikeday> | Having a font called "Serif" is a bit silly, but I think in this case it is supposed to be "Liberation Serif" |
| 09:27 | <mikeday> | "Libre" would be a better name I think, but you'd need an accent on the e and that might confuse people :) |
| 09:31 | <Dashiva> | Hixie: scrollIntoView says scrolling the document into view (instead of the element) in r852, parameter=true case |
| 13:11 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: why deus the meta charset algorithm continue if the charset name is unsupported? That seems weird. Is it what browsers do? |
| 13:11 | <hsivonen> | s/deus/does/ |
| 15:23 | <krijnh> | annevk: verslaafde ;) |
| 15:28 | <annevk> | hehe |
| 19:51 | <annevk> | Questions today: does HTML5 provide more trivial shorthands for doing asynchronous requests (I showed the Google suggest code)? |
| 19:52 | <annevk> | Others have been asked before: how does <section> work combined with <h1> - <h6>, when will it be done, when will it be implemented, etc. |
| 19:57 | <annevk> | http://www.webdevout.net/tidings/2007/05/22/self-contradictions-in-the-html-wg/ |
| 20:08 | <om_food> | annevk: did you see my datalist trick for doing an "ajax combobox" with basically two lines of html5 code? |
| 20:09 | <othermaciej> | (not sure if these are your questions or someone else's) |
| 20:10 | <annevk> | <input list=foo oninput="list.data = '?p' + encodeURIComponent(value)"><datalist id=foo></datalist> ? |
| 20:10 | <othermaciej> | yes |
| 20:10 | <annevk> | yeah, I showed that one |
| 20:10 | <othermaciej> | the template thing Hixie and hyatt are working on would be even more general |
| 20:10 | <annevk> | I think people want more of where that came from :) |
| 20:11 | <annevk> | kk |
| 20:11 | <othermaciej> | and I think <datagrid> can also have an external data source |
| 20:56 | hsivonen | wonders why the charset meta sniffing algorithm bothers to upper-case attribute values |
| 21:11 | <hsivonen> | lower-case that is |
| 21:15 | <Hixie> | it compares one of the attribute values, no? |
| 21:18 | <Hixie> | gotta love people who admit that the use cases are extremely rare but STILL want the feature |
| 21:21 | <gsnedders> | can we have every accessibility feature possible, regardless of the size of the use case? |
| 21:27 | <Dashiva> | What if we have invisible aliens who interact through sandpaper rasping sounds |
| 21:28 | <annevk> | There are probably simpler cases that are not addressed :) |
| 21:32 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: yeah, it says "If the next six characters are not 'charset'" |
| 21:33 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: is continuing when the tentative encoding is unknown the current browser behavior? |
| 21:34 | <hsivonen> | (sorry if you answered already and the answer slipped by my scrollback) |
| 21:35 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: is it intentional that the sniffing algorithm talks about supported encodings and not supported *rough ASCII superset* encodings? |
| 21:38 | <othermaciej> | one quirk in Safari is that if there's a meta tag claiming the source is utf-16, we treat it as utf-8 |
| 21:38 | <annevk> | is that a bug or actually needed? |
| 21:38 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: is that a bug that stuck or is it needed by content out there? |
| 21:39 | <othermaciej> | (that's assuming there was no content-type header claiming otherwise) |
| 21:39 | <Dashiva> | If it's utf-16, it wouldn't be able to decode using the ascii process, right? |
| 21:39 | <othermaciej> | hsivonen: there is content that needs it |
| 21:39 | <othermaciej> | and if it was really utf-16, you wouldn't have found the meta tag |
| 21:39 | <annevk> | got to love the web |
| 21:40 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: ok. what about UTF-32? :-) |
| 21:41 | <Dashiva> | The new scrollIntoView says to scroll the -document- into view for the true case. Am I right in seeing that as an error? |
| 21:42 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: dunno, haven't really looked into it recently. probably need to fix things up in the spec. |
| 21:43 | <annevk> | fyi: I heard lots of people complain about the charset finding byte algorithm |
| 21:43 | <othermaciej> | hsivonen: I think we may treat any claimed unicode charset in a <meta> tag as utf-8 |
| 21:44 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: ok |
| 21:44 | hsivonen | sends an email to get this on record |
| 21:44 | <othermaciej> | (I think maybe same for xml declarations) |
| 21:44 | <annevk> | Why would people write UTF-8 and then claim it's UTF-32?! |
| 21:45 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: that would be dirty and very un-XML :-) |
| 21:45 | <othermaciej> | annevk: because Win IE handles it? |
| 21:45 | <othermaciej> | hsivonen: maybe we just reject such cases for XML, I dunno |
| 21:45 | <Hixie> | annevk: any specific complaints? |
| 21:47 | <othermaciej> | actually we do hack it for xml declarations |
| 21:47 | <othermaciej> | if (source == EncodingFromMetaTag || source == EncodingFromXMLHeader || source == EncodingFromCSSCharset) |
| 21:47 | <othermaciej> | m_decoder.reset(encoding.closest8BitEquivalent()); |
| 21:47 | <annevk> | Hixie, the English algorithm was more complex than the implementation, for one |
| 21:48 | <annevk> | Hixie, hsivonen mentioned earlier that the algorithm "encouraged" look-ahead |
| 21:48 | <othermaciej> | closest8BitEquivalent currently only translates UTF16 (including BE and LE variants) to UTF-8 |
| 21:48 | <annevk> | I believe jgraham had some thoughts about it as well, but I don't recall them |
| 21:48 | <Hixie> | annevk: ah, yeah, it's not as close to an implementation as the parser |
| 21:49 | <Hixie> | annevk: mostly because i didn't implement it :-) |
| 23:22 | <Philip`> | "If the next six characters are not 'charset'" - isn't that seven characters? |
| 23:38 | <Hixie> | arguably, yes |
| 23:38 | <Hixie> | i mean, if you insist on precise numerical counting accuracy |
| 23:38 | <Hixie> | send mail :-) |
| 23:38 | <kingryan> | Hixie: you were counting from 0, right? |
| 23:39 | <Hixie> | kingryan: i think even i would have trouble arguing that "charset" has length 6. :-) |
| 23:39 | <Hixie> | kingryan: otherwise, how long is the empty string? :-) |
| 23:39 | <kingryan> | there is no empty string |
| 23:39 | kingryan | waves hands |
| 23:39 | <Hixie> | hah |
| 23:40 | <kingryan> | Math5 |
| 23:40 | <kingryan> | to go with HTML5 |