| 00:00 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: is there any estimate of how many pages are actually broken, as opposed to just possibly affected? |
| 00:01 | <othermaciej> | (not that I care that much about this issue except that I'd like a resolution) |
| 00:01 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: i couldn't find any pages that were broken that weren't CJK spam or haphazard content aggregation pages. |
| 00:02 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: my last check looked only for pages with multiple different <base href> values with either <a> or <img> elements with relative URIs |
| 00:02 | <othermaciej> | ok |
| 00:03 | <Hixie> | i found about 0.16% pages were affcted |
| 00:03 | <Hixie> | which is non-trivial |
| 00:03 | <Hixie> | oh this included target="" <base> |
| 00:04 | <Hixie> | so that's the wrong number |
| 00:04 | <Hixie> | hold on |
| 00:04 | <Hixie> | oh crap i didn't count how many were affected |
| 00:04 | <Hixie> | duh |
| 00:04 | <Hixie> | oh i see that study was looking specifically for URIs, not trying to get a count |
| 00:05 | <Hixie> | hm, i think i never actually looked at the results of my last study, heh |
| 00:07 | <Hixie> | i'll have to do more work on this |
| 00:10 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: yt? |
| 00:25 | <zcorpan> | http://simon.html5.org/temp/periodic-table.png |
| 00:27 | <zcorpan> | er, that was a follow-up for #html-wg |
| 01:49 | <zcorpan> | it seems that the best way to get good research on something is to spec the opposite of what the majority of people want |
| 01:50 | <Hixie> | hah |
| 01:50 | <Hixie> | i'm really quite impressed, there has been a lot of research done for headers="" |
| 01:50 | <zcorpan> | yeah |
| 01:50 | <Hixie> | what's weird is that none of the research really seems focussed on solving the actual problem |
| 01:51 | <Hixie> | it's mostly about keeping an existing solution without regard to how good it is |
| 02:22 | <karlUshi> | you know what you have, you never know what you will get. |
| 04:20 | <Lachy> | hey, is the start attribute for <video> expressed in seconds? The spec doesn't seem to be clear http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#start2 |
| 04:28 | <Lachy> | Hixie, yt? |
| 05:32 | <Hixie> | Lachy: vaguely here |
| 05:32 | <Hixie> | it's games night :-) |
| 05:32 | <Hixie> | can you send mail about the <video> second thing? |
| 05:32 | <Lachy> | yeah, I later |
| 05:32 | <Lachy> | I *will later |
| 05:32 | <Hixie> | cool thanks |
| 05:32 | <othermaciej> | what video thing? |
| 05:33 | <Hixie> | ambiguity in the spec |
| 05:33 | <Lachy> | othermaciej: it's unclear if the value for the start attribute is specified in seconds |
| 05:34 | <othermaciej> | ah |
| 05:44 | Lachy | wishes that Opera beta with support for <video> wasn't so damn buggy! |
| 05:45 | <othermaciej> | do they have something closer to the spec now or just their original simple prototype? |
| 05:45 | <Lachy> | in projection mode, the video is strangely getting split in the middle and wrapped to the next line :-/ |
| 05:46 | <othermaciej> | hah, line breaks in video |
| 05:46 | <othermaciej> | that's novel :-) |
| 05:46 | <Lachy> | it's alright, I found a work around! :-) |
| 05:47 | <Lachy> | btw, if anyone wants to see the embarrassing video I'm using to demonstrate <video> tonight, see... |
| 05:48 | <Lachy> | http://lachy.id.au/lib/media/2007/wannabe.ogg |
| 05:52 | <karlUshi> | mwahahah "mostly in secret" :) very funny |
| 07:34 | <annevk> | it's called innovation |
| 07:37 | <annevk> | Lachy, lol |
| 07:42 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I'm here now |
| 07:47 | <annevk> | you can rename your service to "HTML5 validator" per the spec :) |
| 07:49 | annevk | wonders if someone is implementing <command> given that it suddenly got a stable URI |
| 10:56 | <mikeday> | so, someone needs to rewrite CSS from scratch eh? :) |
| 10:56 | <annevk> | yes |
| 10:57 | <annevk> | do you have a couple of years with at least 40 hours of free time each week? |
| 10:57 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: Minefield says of whatwg.org: The page you are trying to view cannot be shown because it uses an invalid or unsupported form of compression. |
| 10:57 | <mikeday> | heh |
| 10:58 | <hsivonen> | hmm. Firefox works. perhaps someone broke HTTP-level compression in the latest nightly |
| 10:58 | <annevk> | http://twitter.com/cwilso/statuses/93612242 |
| 10:59 | <mikeday> | hmm |
| 10:59 | <mikeday> | where is this "real world" of which you speak? |
| 10:59 | <annevk> | hehe |
| 11:00 | <mikeday> | (a world in which specification writers walk as gods amongst men, perhaps? :) |
| 11:00 | <annevk> | it's called WHATWG |
| 11:00 | hsivonen | hopes the CSS WG transformed itself to a more WHATWG-like group in a non-hostile way |
| 11:01 | <mikeday> | very diplomatic. |
| 11:02 | <hsivonen> | I haven't been following what's going on closely enough but the CSS 2.1 spec certainly seems to have stalled. and it would be great if "CSS5" emerged from the CSS WG itself |
| 11:02 | <mikeday> | I thought CSS 2.1 was supposed to be "CSS5" |
| 11:03 | <mikeday> | in the sense of codifying existing behaviour and expectations |
| 11:03 | <hsivonen> | mikeday: exactly |
| 11:03 | <mikeday> | shame it just shrugs when it comes to table rendering of course, but that could be fixed... |
| 11:04 | <annevk> | they seem to be mostly working on the spec and not on testing if it's correctly implemented and changing the spec if needed |
| 11:04 | <annevk> | the other problem, as Hixie indicated, is that little new stuff that is needed for web apps comes out of the CSS WG, if any |
| 11:05 | <mikeday> | what is the solution? |
| 11:06 | <mikeday> | on a tangent, I've always thought that WHATWG is more fond of JavaScript than CSS |
| 11:07 | <annevk> | the WHATWG is focused on improving the semantic and logical side of the problem |
| 11:07 | <annevk> | there was hope that the CSS WG would solve the stylistic side but that hasn't happened yet |
| 11:08 | <mikeday> | time to revive JSS perhaps? :) |
| 11:08 | <annevk> | there's also need for improving the underlying platforms, such as the DOM and HTTP and maybe the URL specs |
| 11:08 | <annevk> | mikeday, I'm working on a new a version of the CSSOM |
| 11:08 | <hsivonen> | what seems alarming to me is that Hixie as a CSS WG insider says there's a problem and I had thought that the CSS WG was the best functioning WG at the W3C. (this may be an awfully naive though, but that's what I though) |
| 11:09 | <hsivonen> | s/though/thought/ |
| 11:09 | <mikeday> | hard to define "best functioning" I guess |
| 11:10 | <hsivonen> | well, let's say the WG whose output had the most World Wide Web relevance |
| 11:10 | hsivonen | doesn't consider Web Services, private XML systems, Mobile Web and Semantic Web to have that much World Wide Web relevance. |
| 11:10 | <mikeday> | ah, not the XQuery or RDF working groups, then :) |
| 11:11 | <mikeday> | in that case, only HTML and CSS working groups would be relevant, yes? |
| 11:11 | <mikeday> | (and HTML was defunct until recently) |
| 11:12 | <hsivonen> | mikeday: yes. (I was thinking of the pre-new HTML WG situation) |
| 11:14 | <mikeday> | strange when you think of the importance of the web, that it's development is so anarchic |
| 11:16 | <annevk> | that's because if you want to move forward you need implementations |
| 11:18 | <mikeday> | and no single vendor is responsible for the web |
| 11:19 | <annevk> | well, MSIE is mostly responsible for how people code their pages |
| 11:19 | <annevk> | although that has shifted towards other browsers now |
| 11:25 | <mikeday> | oh well, after the coming apocalypse I guess someone can redesign the web from scratch, and get it right |
| 11:26 | <Dashiva> | The same people who designed the apocalypse, no doubt |
| 11:26 | <annevk> | once we get perfect humans, sure |
| 11:28 | mikeday | grins |
| 12:16 | <annevk> | who can edit http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/IRC ? |
| 12:21 | <Dashiva> | 10:12, 6 March 2007 Hixie (Talk | contribs) protected "IRC" (This page keeps being pointlessly spammed. [edit=sysop:move=sysop]) |
| 12:23 | <Dashiva> | So the people at http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Special:Listusers?group=sysop |
| 12:33 | <annevk> | k |
| 12:33 | <annevk> | Lachy? |
| 13:14 | <deltab> | is semi-protection available? |
| 13:15 | <deltab> | or would it not help with that? |
| 13:30 | <Dashiva> | The edits have been by registered accounts, so not as much |
| 14:52 | <annevk> | <m> really is only useful for search results I think |
| 14:52 | <annevk> | If you start using it for other things you can no longer use it for search results... |
| 14:53 | <Dashiva> | Indeed |
| 16:00 | Lachy | has returned |
| 16:01 | <Lachy> | my presentation went very well! |
| 16:01 | <annevk> | online? |
| 16:01 | <annevk> | also, see above about IRC |
| 16:02 | <Lachy> | I won first prize: Adobe CS3 Suite! |
| 16:03 | annevk | wonders where Lachy went |
| 16:03 | <Lachy> | I will upload the slides shortly |
| 16:03 | <annevk> | oh, because of the video you made? |
| 16:03 | <Lachy> | yes |
| 16:03 | <annevk> | that was very funny |
| 16:03 | <Lachy> | it was Web Jam 3 |
| 16:03 | <Lachy> | yeah, it got huge laughs |
| 16:03 | <annevk> | lots of people? |
| 16:03 | <Lachy> | and I did a live performance at the end by popular demand |
| 16:04 | <Lachy> | that was videod too :-) |
| 16:06 | <Lachy> | I think there were around 70-80 people there |
| 16:08 | <Lachy> | annevk: what did you want me to add to that IRC page? Did you just want me to update the link to the logs? |
| 16:08 | <annevk> | Lachy, can you fix http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/IRC per Talk:IRC? |
| 16:08 | <annevk> | I think that's about it |
| 16:08 | <Lachy> | ok |
| 16:08 | <annevk> | maybe you guys should make me admin |
| 16:12 | <Lachy> | annevk: you are now a bureacrat and sysop |
| 16:13 | <annevk> | ooh, new features |
| 16:13 | <annevk> | I'll update the page myself then |
| 16:13 | <Lachy> | ok, I was just about to save it, so wait |
| 16:13 | <annevk> | np |
| 16:14 | <Lachy> | done |
| 16:17 | annevk | deletes some spam pages |
| 16:27 | <annevk> | nickshanks, why can't you just use media queries? |
| 16:28 | <annevk> | also, did you take pixel scaling into account (CSS pixel != screen pixel) and such? |
| 16:33 | <Lachy> | wow! I just read Hixie's rant about the CSSWG. :-) |
| 16:33 | <annevk> | have some spare time the coming years? |
| 16:33 | <Lachy> | not that much time, unfortunately |
| 16:34 | <zcorpan> | does css need a complete rewrite? |
| 16:34 | <Lachy> | there's a lot that needs to be fixed, and quirks mode needs to be defined from scratch |
| 16:34 | <zcorpan> | oh quirks mode indeed |
| 16:35 | <annevk> | zcorpan, dunno really |
| 16:35 | <annevk> | the current spec is quite unclear but I don't really have suggestions ready for making it much more clear |
| 16:36 | <zcorpan> | i was planning on defining quirks mode as merely how it is different from css21 |
| 16:36 | <annevk> | maybe by having more exact definitions and algorithms... |
| 16:37 | <zcorpan> | i think it's more productive to work on a test suite for css21 and patch css21 where necessary |
| 16:37 | <zcorpan> | (e.g. the table model) |
| 16:37 | <zcorpan> | than to rewrite the whole thing |
| 16:37 | <Lachy> | from the CSSWG blog: "It is not possible for W3C and the members of its working groups to go search for all possibly relevant articles on the Web." - we seem to be doing quite well with that |
| 16:38 | <annevk> | zcorpan, probably |
| 16:38 | <zcorpan> | Lachy: yeah, it's not very hard to do :) |
| 16:38 | <annevk> | zcorpan, however, there's also need for new features such as a flexible box model etc. and how to integrate those definitions into the rest is quite unclear to me |
| 16:38 | <Lachy> | Hixie gets pingbacks for the spec, zcorpan and I have del.icio.us accts with whatwg tags |
| 16:39 | annevk | uses blogsearch.google.com and now and then technorati |
| 16:39 | <Lachy> | yeah |
| 16:39 | <krijn> | http://www.google.com/alerts is handy too :) |
| 16:39 | <zcorpan> | i have subscribed to a google blogsearch feed looking for relevant words |
| 16:39 | <Lachy> | it would be cool if we had a WHATWG acct on del.iciou.us that anyone could add to, just like anyone can post to the WHATWG twitter acct. |
| 16:40 | <Lachy> | and then Hixie could use the API to automatically add any article that pings the spec |
| 16:42 | <zcorpan> | the blogsearch has some irrelevant pages, some contain "www.example.org/foo/bar.html5";, others contain "(View as HTML5)", and i've found one that has "... what? WG ..." or some such |
| 16:46 | <zcorpan> | http://blogsearch.google.com/blogsearch_feeds?hl=en&q=html5+OR+xhtml5+OR+%22xhtml+5%22+OR+%22whatwg%22+OR+%22what+wg%22+OR+%22web+applications+1%22+OR+%22web+apps+1%22+OR+%22web+forms+2%22&scoring=d&ie=utf-8&num=10&output=atom |
| 16:47 | <zcorpan> | (searching for html-5 gets too many irrelevant hits) |
| 16:57 | <annevk> | Paul Hoffman++ |
| 16:57 | <annevk> | "The status of the new document is *much* less important than its correctness and usability to HTTP implementers." |
| 16:58 | <Lachy> | http://lachy.id.au/dev/presentation/webjam3/ |
| 16:59 | <Lachy> | it's built for Opera Show |
| 16:59 | <annevk> | all cool presentations are these days :p |
| 17:00 | <annevk> | it also requires a certain experimental implementation... |
| 17:02 | <Lachy> | btw, annevk, I discovered a strange bug while experimenting with the video in opera. It sometimes split the video in half and word-wrapped it. I hope that's fixed in more recent internal builds |
| 17:02 | <annevk> | feel free to report bugs |
| 17:02 | <annevk> | you're encouraged to report bugs, even :) |
| 17:02 | <Lachy> | I'll create a test case for it and then report it |
| 17:03 | <annevk> | cool |
| 17:28 | <nickshanks> | annevk: sorry, was not paying attention here |
| 17:28 | <nickshanks> | the HTTP header would be mostly for use outside of CSS |
| 17:28 | <nickshanks> | i used a bad example of actually negotiating a CSS file using it :) |
| 17:29 | <annevk> | images and such are decoded such that one image pixel is one CSS pixel |
| 17:29 | <annevk> | which kind of negates the entire point of high DPI images... |
| 17:30 | <annevk> | unless of course you override the width and height and scale it down in some way... |
| 17:38 | <annevk> | so unless you're changing the way <img> works I'm not sure how it helps much |
| 17:43 | <Lachy> | whatwg.org seems to be down |
| 17:43 | <billmason> | wfm just now |
| 17:44 | <Lachy> | try it again, check you're not loading from chache |
| 17:44 | <Lachy> | *cache |
| 17:44 | <Lachy> | http://www.dnsstuff.com/tools/ping.ch?ip=http://www.whawg.org/ gets no response |
| 17:44 | <billmason> | cleared cache, still wfm |
| 17:44 | <billmason> | whawg is misspelled, so one would suppose not :) |
| 17:45 | <Lachy> | oops :-) |
| 17:45 | <Lachy> | I'm too tired, it's nearly 03:00 here ;-) |
| 17:52 | <Lachy> | I met a guy from the Adobe Flash team at Web Jam tonight, and had the greatest trouble trying to explain why effectively requiring flash for interoperably embedding video, and why the MPEG, etc. software patents were a major issue |
| 19:12 | <Hixie> | annevk: it needed a stable uri for my blog post ;-) |
| 19:13 | <annevk> | ah, fair enough :) |
| 19:13 | <annevk> | didn't think of that! |
| 19:14 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: the CSSWG is the best functioning group of the W3C, with maybe the exception of WebAPI, WAF, and HTML, which are working about as well. |
| 19:15 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: ok |
| 19:16 | <annevk> | Hixie, now you're here, what's the reason for bimorphic content models? |
| 19:16 | Philip` | was thinking of changing the spec-splitter to just split on <h2> and at various human-chosen <h3>s, so it wouldn't end up with tiny pages, but that'd destabilise all the page names again |
| 19:17 | <Hixie> | annevk: it's to allow people to put inline content inside <div>s, <li>s, etc, instead of requiring <p>s everywhere |
| 19:18 | <annevk> | Why isn't <div>test<p>test</p></div> allowed? |
| 19:19 | <annevk> | Philip`, maybe you should generate a .htaccess at the same time that generates 302 redirects for old pages |
| 19:19 | <annevk> | Hixie, like %Flow from HTML5 |
| 19:19 | <annevk> | HTML4 |
| 19:21 | <Hixie> | what would the first piece of text mean? |
| 19:21 | <Hixie> | if the second is a paragraph, why would the first not be? |
| 19:21 | <Hixie> | e.g. consider <ol> <li> <em> Hello </em> <p> World </p> </li> </ol> -- what are the semantics of that? |
| 19:21 | <Hixie> | I don't understand what it means for inline content to be next to block content |
| 19:22 | <annevk> | a div with some text followed by a paragraph |
| 19:22 | <annevk> | that would be some emphased text followed by a paragraph |
| 19:22 | <annevk> | it doesn't look very good though |
| 19:23 | <Hixie> | why isn't <body> Text </body> allowed? |
| 19:24 | <annevk> | dunno |
| 19:24 | <Hixie> | basically it's always been my impression that the allowing of mixed inline and block content at the same level was a bug in HTML4 |
| 19:24 | <Hixie> | one of the things that didn't get fixed in strict |
| 19:24 | <Hixie> | (<body> Text </body> is allowed in HTML4 Transitional but not strict, but <div> Text <p/> </div> is allowed in both) |
| 19:42 | <annevk> | did someone introduce a bug in html5lib? |
| 19:42 | <annevk> | it barfs at me |
| 19:55 | <annevk> | hmm, <legend> outside <fieldset> is _badly_ parsed |
| 19:56 | <annevk> | I wonder if that's required or not |
| 19:59 | <zcorpan_> | annevk: how is it parsed? |
| 19:59 | <annevk> | Opera: void tag |
| 19:59 | <annevk> | Firefox: ignored |
| 19:59 | <annevk> | IE: void tag |
| 19:59 | <annevk> | that's for <legend> |
| 20:00 | <annevk> | </legend> is ignored by Opera and Firefox and IE makes it a void tag |
| 20:01 | <zcorpan_> | ok |
| 20:01 | <zcorpan_> | also in quirks mode? |
| 20:01 | <annevk> | let me test |
| 20:01 | <annevk> | Opera: yes |
| 20:02 | <annevk> | other browsers: yes |
| 20:02 | <Hixie> | yeah it's almost as bad as <caption> |
| 20:03 | <Hixie> | we might have issues with <figure> |
| 20:03 | <Hixie> | i hope not, but... |
| 20:03 | <zcorpan_> | in firefox i get a parent FIELDSET |
| 20:03 | <annevk> | <figure> works |
| 20:03 | <annevk> | except in IE |
| 20:03 | <Hixie> | i mean <figure>'s use of <legend> |
| 20:03 | annevk | was testing in Firefox trunk |
| 20:03 | <annevk> | Hixie, that doesn't |
| 20:04 | <zcorpan_> | but not always... for <div><legend> it is ignored |
| 20:06 | <annevk> | oh right |
| 20:06 | <annevk> | just <legend> gives you that |
| 20:06 | <annevk> | that's fucked up |
| 20:06 | <zcorpan_> | yeah |
| 20:07 | annevk | wonders what Safari does |
| 20:07 | <annevk> | anyone care to run http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Clegend%3Ex%3C/legend%3E through Safari (tot)? |
| 20:24 | <MikeSmith> | annevk - got it up now in tot WebKit/Safari |
| 20:25 | <yod> | different tree than firefox though |
| 20:27 | <MikeSmith> | yod, yeah |
| 20:27 | <annevk> | MikeSmith, what's the tree? |
| 20:27 | <yod> | html |
| 20:28 | <yod> | body |
| 20:28 | <yod> | text x |
| 20:28 | <yod> | #text x, rather |
| 20:28 | <yod> | innerhtml has <!DOCTYPE HTML><html><body>x</body></html> |
| 20:29 | <annevk> | ah, so <legend> is trimmed |
| 20:29 | <annevk> | I guess that pretty much settles the faith of <legend>... |
| 20:29 | <MikeSmith> | annevk - yeah, what yod says |
| 20:30 | <yod> | yeh, trimmed, whereas firefox assumes there is a fieldset around it |
| 20:30 | <annevk> | Firefox only does that in certain weird cases... |
| 20:43 | <rubys> | annevk: ping? |
| 20:43 | <annevk> | pong |
| 20:44 | <rubys> | I'm seeing 10 failures in the python tests with your latest commit |
| 20:44 | <annevk> | hmm |
| 20:44 | <annevk> | I was hoping it would be error free :( |
| 20:44 | <annevk> | But I couldn't get the tests to run properly |
| 20:46 | <rubys> | http://intertwingly.net/tmp/html5lib.log |
| 20:47 | <annevk> | Where is the "<" from? |
| 20:48 | <rubys> | look at the last test in tests/tree-construction/tests3.dat |
| 20:48 | <annevk> | a |
| 20:48 | <annevk> | one sec |
| 20:49 | <annevk> | can you run svn update and run the tests again? |
| 20:49 | <annevk> | I think I'm missing some dependencies here |
| 20:50 | <rubys> | python tests now pass |
| 20:50 | <annevk> | thanks for pinging :) |
| 20:50 | <annevk> | guess ruby might have a failure now for those |
| 20:50 | <rubys> | just curious, do you have an opinion on whether other languages should be separate projects or not? |
| 20:51 | <annevk> | not really |
| 20:51 | <annevk> | I know there's a separate C and Java project going on |
| 20:51 | <annevk> | although I've the feeling the Java one is more actively developed |
| 20:52 | <rubys> | links? |
| 20:53 | <annevk> | Java parser is developed by hsivonen: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/validator-about/ (not sure there's source code online yet) |
| 20:53 | <rubys> | validator is a bit of a different beast |
| 20:53 | <annevk> | Michael Day was doing one in C on sf |
| 20:54 | <annevk> | rubys, yes, but he's writing a parser with full error recovery |
| 20:54 | <annevk> | http://libhtml.sourceforge.net/ is the C one |
| 20:54 | <annevk> | rubys, you should be able to use his Java parser separately from the conformance checker |
| 20:55 | <annevk> | as a library |
| 20:55 | <rubys> | is it just a tokenizer, or will it do things like the adoption agency algorithm? |
| 20:56 | <annevk> | full HTML parser |
| 20:56 | <annevk> | including input stream, tokenization and tree construction as I understand it |
| 20:58 | <annevk> | He'll be using the tests from html5lib |
| 21:57 | <chiptmatt> | Afternoon, gang |
| 22:10 | <chiptmatt> | It's always great to sit back and just take in the intellectual conversation |
| 22:18 | <zcorpan_> | chiptmatt: afternoon |
| 22:18 | <chiptmatt> | Ahh, life on the channel! |
| 22:34 | <chiptmatt> | so, zcorpan_, are you a regular here? |
| 22:44 | <zcorpan_> | chiptmatt: yeah |
| 22:47 | <chiptmatt> | Hixie's post about the CSS working group has me inspired. |
| 22:52 | <chiptmatt> | Although I'm a little unsure about where to start helping out |
| 22:53 | <zcorpan_> | chiptmatt: work out exactly how browsers implement the table model |
| 23:06 | <chiptmatt> | No problem! I'll get right on that |
