| 01:44 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: i don't have a good page to point to that i can think of. what's the argument, exactly? |
| 01:44 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: haven't looked at the svg/mathml thing. i don't think putting svg in html would make sense, though, and presentational mathml is nearly as bad. |
| 01:47 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: and the insertion point can be weirder than that iirc |
| 03:32 | <othermaciej> | Sam Ruby puts SVG in XHTML |
| 08:33 | <met_> | http://therealcrisp.xs4all.nl/blog/2007/06/17/fixing-the-web-fix-your-browser/ |
| 09:28 | <Hixie> | wow, molly sure is taking a beating |
| 10:29 | <annevk> | ooh, quirks mode |
| 10:35 | <Ducki> | :O |
| 10:36 | <annevk> | Hixie, did you leave out almost standards mode with some hope that we might change some CSS stuff to pull almost and standards mode back together? |
| 11:22 | <annevk> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Jun/0017.html "Furthermore XHTML2 maintains |
| 11:22 | <annevk> | backwards compatibility with HTML4 and XHTML1 in a way that we do not. It has no clean slate policy, but instead tries to maintain elements and attributes from prior W3C recommendations." |
| 11:23 | <hasather_> | annevk: hehe, wtf |
| 12:15 | <annevk> | I think I've addressed most requests so far: file://localhost/home/annevk/projects/dev.w3.org/html5/html4-differences/Overview.html |
| 12:16 | <hasather_> | annevk: that was localhost |
| 12:17 | <annevk> | cool |
| 12:17 | <hasather_> | :) |
| 12:17 | <annevk> | It's also checked in though: http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/html5/html4-differences/Overview.html |
| 12:18 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: the rationale behind the semantic change complaint seemed to be that you are pulling the rug from under those who are authoring assuming previous de jure semantics |
| 12:19 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: The idea that SVG should be kept out of text/html because it is presentational is totally unconvincing. I don't see how things get any better--even theoretically--when you move a chunk of markup into an external network resource |
| 12:19 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: do you think my thesis, the Distler blog and Sam Ruby's blog would benefit from putting SVG into a separate HTTP resource? |
| 12:23 | <annevk> | "http://www.ibm.com/data/dtd/v11/ibmxhtml1-transitional.dtd"; |
| 12:23 | <annevk> | heh |
| 12:40 | <kfish> | hi ctford |
| 12:40 | <ctford> | hello all |
| 12:42 | <ctford> | does anyone know if the new <video> tag supports width and height attributes to force the browser to display it as a particular size? |
| 12:42 | <ctford> | i know there are videoWidth and videoHeight attributes, but they seem to refer to the native height of the video, not the size it's displayed at. |
| 12:42 | <annevk> | you size it with CSS and then the video scales to fit to the width and height |
| 12:43 | <annevk> | (videoHeight and videoWidth are DOM attributes, not content attributes) |
| 12:43 | <ctford> | yep, makes sense |
| 12:43 | <ctford> | so could you do <video src=??? width=200 height=200 /> then? |
| 12:44 | <annevk> | just <video src=video> |
| 12:44 | <annevk> | video { width:100%; height:100% } in your CSS |
| 12:45 | <kfish> | annevk, so to give the browser a hint about the actual video dimensions, we'd have to generate the corresponding CSS with px values? |
| 12:45 | <annevk> | there's no way to give hints |
| 12:46 | <annevk> | there's a way to specify a size for the video frame in which the video will render (CSS) |
| 12:46 | <annevk> | if you don't use CSS the video will be displayed with its native height and width |
| 12:47 | <kfish> | sure, except that it might take a few seconds to determine that |
| 12:47 | <kfish> | but specifying the size of the video frame is what i was referring to anyway |
| 12:47 | <annevk> | I suppose one could argue that the size of a video frame is not presentational |
| 12:47 | <annevk> | dunno |
| 12:48 | <annevk> | for now there are no such attributes though |
| 12:49 | <ctford> | annevk: so you can't use a style attribute? |
| 12:49 | <ctford> | i know it's better practice to put it in a separate css stylesheet |
| 12:51 | <kfish> | ctford, putting it into a style element would be ok (not require generating a separate css resource for each video) |
| 12:52 | <ctford> | kfish: for our purposes it's probably best to put all the sizing in css, because that's where you'd be messing with the page layout and it's the page layout that determines what size you want the videos to be. |
| 12:54 | <kfish> | yes, but if it's just width and height than that css can live inside <style> ... </style> in the page |
| 12:54 | <annevk> | ctford, style= is not allowed |
| 12:54 | <annevk> | <style> is |
| 12:54 | <ctford> | annevk: ah, thanks |
| 12:55 | <ctford> | kfish: sure, it could live in the page, but the rest of the sizing info is in separate stylesheets right? |
| 12:57 | <kfish> | ctford, for cmmlwiki, the rest of the styling is static across the site, not dependent on the video content |
| 12:59 | <ctford> | kfish: yeah, so don't we have to force the video to be a certain height so that it fits in with the static sizing of the rest of the page? |
| 12:59 | <kfish> | ctford, -> #annodex :-) |
| 13:00 | <ctford> | :) |
| 13:00 | <kfish> | annevk, thanks |
| 13:01 | <ctford> | cheers annevk |
| 13:03 | <annevk> | you guys working on some <video> project? |
| 13:04 | <kfish> | annevk, yeah, just putting support into cmmlwiki, eg. http://media.annodex.net/cmmlwiki/ |
| 13:04 | <kfish> | which is a demo for annodex, which is about hyperlinked video |
| 13:04 | <kfish> | www.annodex.net :-) |
| 13:06 | <kfish> | we also work closely with xiph.org on ogg |
| 13:06 | <annevk> | cool |
| 13:17 | annevk | wonders how far Hixie is with parser feedback... |
| 13:17 | annevk | wonders if he mentioned that Opera is doing </br> and </p> quirks in either parsing mode already |
| 13:17 | annevk | ... lik IE |
| 13:36 | <zcorpan> | annevk: i did some testing on that before, can't remember if i have sent results to the list though |
| 13:37 | <zcorpan> | http://simon.html5.org/test/html/parsing/stray-end-tags/ |
| 13:38 | <annevk> | yeah, we have <BR> and <P></P> for 001 now |
| 13:38 | <annevk> | identical results in 002 and 003 |
| 13:39 | <annevk> | wow, IE does it for a lot more elements... |
| 13:39 | <zcorpan> | indeed |
| 13:39 | <zcorpan> | </plaintext>! |
| 13:39 | <annevk> | h1-h6, address, ol, ul, etc. |
| 13:40 | <Jero> | yeah, you should check the innerHTML in IE for test 110 on http://jero.net/lab/ph5p/tests.html |
| 13:40 | <annevk> | fancy |
| 13:41 | <annevk> | Firefox does it 1) only in quirks) and 2) only for BR and P |
| 13:42 | <annevk> | I like </plaintext> |
| 13:42 | <Jero> | Safari does <p></p> in standards mode |
| 13:43 | <annevk> | Does Safari do <br> too? |
| 13:43 | <zcorpan> | Jero: are tests 50 and 83 up to date? (the spec changed recently) |
| 13:43 | <Jero> | only in 003 |
| 13:43 | <annevk> | k |
| 13:43 | <annevk> | guess we'll get </br> and </p> in all modes at least |
| 13:43 | <kfish> | if anyone has a browser supporting <video>, try eg: http://media.annodex.net/cmmlwiki/SFD2005-Trailer |
| 13:44 | <Jero> | zcorpan: what changes are you referring to? |
| 13:44 | <Jero> | i got these tests from html5lib |
| 13:44 | <annevk> | Some tests in html5lib are now wrong |
| 13:44 | <annevk> | And some might contradict tests5.dat |
| 13:45 | <Jero> | these are only the tests from tests1.dat |
| 13:45 | <annevk> | those contain some errors now |
| 13:45 | <Jero> | do you know which tests (except 50 and 83)? |
| 13:46 | <annevk> | no, I haven't looked through that yet |
| 13:46 | <annevk> | I'm actually hoping someone else will update stuff... |
| 13:47 | <Jero> | also, what changes to the spec made the tests have errors? |
| 13:47 | <annevk> | the handling of <!-- and --> in <style>, <script>, etc. |
| 13:48 | <zcorpan> | Jero: http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=885&to=886 |
| 13:48 | <annevk> | the handling of "<" in tag / attribute names, attribute values |
| 13:48 | <Jero> | i've fixed the < in tags yesterday in my script |
| 13:48 | <Jero> | but not the handling of <!-- |
| 13:49 | <zcorpan> | "<" is http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=899&to=902 |
| 13:50 | <Jero> | yup, i had seen those |
| 13:50 | <Jero> | *have |
| 13:51 | <annevk> | <!-- checking seems annoying |
| 13:51 | <annevk> | < is trivial |
| 13:51 | <annevk> | extended DOCTYPE parsing seems doable, but the big table makes it cumbersome |
| 13:52 | <annevk> | (for quirks mode checking) |
| 13:53 | <annevk> | one of the problems I have is that I don't have all the dependencies for html5lib anymore on my new machine so running the tests doesn't work... |
| 14:08 | <hsivonen> | <style> compared to width= height= is awfully impractical |
| 14:09 | hsivonen | doesn't mind having presentational stuff when it's practical |
| 14:11 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: for <img>? |
| 14:12 | <Philip`> | <div><style scoped>video { width: 300px; height: 150px }</style><video ...>...</video></div> still seems quite verbose (and non-backward-compatible) |
| 14:13 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: video |
| 14:13 | <zcorpan> | ok |
| 14:13 | Philip` | guesses that <video ...><style scoped>video { width: 300px; height: 150px }</style></video> wouldn't work because the contents of <video> get ignored, but isn't sure what says that is true |
| 14:14 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: contents of video is still processed |
| 14:14 | <Philip`> | Oh, maybe it's not true |
| 14:14 | <Philip`> | "User agents should not show this fallback content to the user." - sounds like it's there but undisplayed |
| 14:14 | <Philip`> | in which case you could style videos in that way |
| 14:14 | <zcorpan> | if style scoped will affect the parent |
| 14:15 | <Jero> | is the scope attribute new? |
| 14:15 | <Jero> | *scoped |
| 14:15 | <zcorpan> | Jero: yes |
| 14:15 | <Philip`> | Oh, it does at the moment but I guess that could change |
| 14:16 | <zcorpan> | hm, wonder if it should be disallowed to put <style scoped> in head |
| 14:17 | <Jero> | yeah, that would seem like a good idea |
| 14:17 | <zcorpan> | and/or whether such elements should just affect the whole document anyway |
| 14:17 | <Jero> | i think the attribute should just be ignored |
| 14:17 | <zcorpan> | not sure |
| 14:17 | <zcorpan> | it makes implementation more complex |
| 14:19 | <Jero> | i doubt that |
| 14:19 | <Jero> | you could easily check whether or not the style element is in the head element |
| 14:19 | <Jero> | if so, ignore the scoped attribute |
| 14:19 | <zcorpan> | the alternative is to not check |
| 14:22 | <Jero> | and let it be ignored you mean? |
| 14:25 | <zcorpan> | apply to the head |
| 14:45 | <Jero> | zcorpan: that's almost the same :p |
| 14:46 | <Jero> | though, as the purist that I am, I'm still not sure if this is such a good idea |
| 14:47 | <Jero> | i understand the advantages of course, but I think having a more powerful styling language (CSS5) would be much better |
| 15:04 | <Lachy> | not surprisingly, unicode case folding has not been implemented properly by browsers :-( |
| 15:16 | <Jero> | In the U+002D HYPHEN-MINUS (-) case of the data state ( http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-tokenisation.html#data-state ), why check if there are at least three character before the current character in the input stream? |
| 15:16 | <Jero> | oh nvm |
| 15:17 | <Jero> | i get it now |
| 15:53 | <Jero> | zcorpan: I've implemented revision 886, thanks |
| 15:54 | <zcorpan> | Jero: if <style scoped> in head is non-conforming, the handling of it can be considered error handling. why make it more complex than it needs to be? it's not like there is content that depends on a particular handling |
| 15:54 | <zcorpan> | Jero: cool |
| 15:55 | <Jero> | zcorpan: true |
| 17:48 | Lachy | fixed several more issues in Selectors API http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2006/webapi/selectors-api/Overview.src.html?content-type=text/html;%20charset=UTF-8 |
| 18:39 | <Jero> | oh snap, i had been working for a couple hours on a bug that i thought was in my implementation of the adoption agency algorithm |
| 18:40 | <Jero> | but it turned out that i forgot to change the first character of closing tags from upper to lower case... </frustrations> |
| 19:04 | <Jero> | With "<p><b></p>" a </b> is generated. Should this B element remain in the list of active formatting elements? |
| 19:06 | <Hixie> | annevk: i left out almost standards mode because as far as html5 is concerned, there's no such thing |
| 19:07 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: re changing semantics -- we're not actually changing them, though. <i> and <small> are just broadened to cover non-visual cases, really. |
| 19:08 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: having SVG in an external resource emphasises the point that the resource is not part of the content, and makes it at least slightly more likely that an alternative aural presentation is given (e.g.). |
| 19:08 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: and if it's purely presentational, and thus would not have a visual equivalent, then it should be in hte stylesheet where it can be switched out |
| 19:11 | <Hixie> | Jero: unless the spec says to take it out, it stays in |
| 19:13 | <Jero> | ok, thanks |
| 20:08 | <zcorpan> | "[ ] Notify me of followup comments via e-mail" -- wow, all blogs should have this feature (from http://dev.aizatto.com/2007/06/18/taking-a-peek-at-html-5/ ) |
| 20:12 | <met_> | http://www.andybudd.com/archives/2007/06/whither_w3c/ |
| 20:15 | <Jero> | zcorpan: most WP blogs have a separate feed just for the comments |
| 20:24 | <zcorpan> | Jero: true |
| 20:24 | <jruderman> | but then you have to add the feed manually, and remove it after a few weeks to avoid cluttering up your feed reader |
| 20:25 | <jruderman> | and you have to use a feed reader (i don't) |
| 20:26 | <zcorpan> | indeed, adding and removing feeds for all blogs you comment on is cumbersome. getting email is less so |
| 20:26 | <zcorpan> | s/blogs/blog posts/ |
| 20:31 | <jgraham> | Hmm, it seems like a river-of-news style feedreader would work better for comment feeds since you wouldn't have old posts cluttering up the UI most of the time (though they'd still get checked I suppose) |
| 20:32 | <jruderman> | river-of-news? |
| 20:32 | <jgraham> | like planet or venus |
| 20:32 | <jruderman> | ahh |
| 21:11 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: Re: changing semantics: I think the issue has been raised often enough that we need a FAQ entry |
| 21:13 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I still entirely unconvinced about the practicality of your and annevk's stance regarding SVG in text/html. From my point of view, it is a feature parity bug between HTML5 and XHTML5 regardless of whether it's presentational |
| 21:13 | <hsivonen> | s/I/I'm/ |
| 21:14 | <jruderman> | SVG in text/html!? |
| 21:15 | <hsivonen> | jruderman: yes. defining appropriate namespace assignment in the tree builder and a void element mode flag in the tokenizer |
| 21:17 | <hsivonen> | jruderman: I think publications like the Distler blog should be able to use text/html with math and vector graphics ending up in the right namespaces in the DOM |
| 21:18 | <jruderman> | what would the syntax look like? |
| 21:18 | <hsivonen> | <svg> ... </svg> and <math> .... </math> |
| 21:19 | <hsivonen> | jruderman: implicit namespace assignment based on <svg> and <math> subtree root |
| 21:19 | <jruderman> | what about foreignObject? |
| 21:20 | <jruderman> | or using an html:img as the denominator of a fraction? |
| 21:20 | <jruderman> | would those still require moving to xhtml? |
| 21:20 | <hsivonen> | jruderman: I guess having an <html> subtree in there should switch back to the XHTML namespace |
| 21:20 | <jruderman> | hmm |
| 21:22 | <Philip`> | Could it be done so that future extensions (like adding <x3d>...</x3d> or whatever) can degrade gracefully, rather than being treated like a collection of <span>s and text that will get misinterpreted by old UAs (and confuse search engines, etc)? |
| 21:23 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: I don't know how to handle arbitrary vocabulary combinations without prefixing |
| 21:23 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: but I want to optimize for SVG and MathML |
| 21:23 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: I'd be OK with a hairier arrangement for arbitrary vocabularies if we really want to do those |
| 21:23 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: (I know that there are WG participants who want to) |
| 21:24 | <Philip`> | Hmm, maybe something like <svg xmlns>...</xml> so it's easy to remember/write but means browsers can easily determine that it's some XML extension and they should ignore it unless they understand what "svg" means? |
| 21:24 | <Philip`> | Uh |
| 21:24 | <Philip`> | <svg xmlns>...</svg> |
| 21:25 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: radical! |
| 21:33 | <Jero> | erm... SVG and MathML in HTML? |
| 21:33 | <Jero> | we might as well kill XML then... |
| 23:16 | <weinigLap> | Hixie: you around? |
| 23:17 | <weinigLap> | Hixie: I am a little confused about the Location object in the HTML5 spec |
| 23:17 | <weinigLap> | Hixie: are the attributes supposed to readonly? |
| 23:27 | <Dashiva> | weinigLap: They aren't actually readonly, as setting them maps to the assign() method |
| 23:28 | weinigLap | nods |
| 23:28 | <weinigLap> | hence my confusion |
| 23:29 | <weinigLap> | Dashiva: do you know why they are labeled readonly in the interface definition? |
| 23:29 | <Dashiva> | The attributes are read-only |
| 23:29 | <Dashiva> | You can't change them. However, setting them is treated as an implicit call to change the current location |
| 23:30 | <weinigLap> | ah |
| 23:30 | <weinigLap> | weird |
| 23:30 | <weinigLap> | thanks though |
| 23:51 | <Hixie> | weinigLap: i don't think they should be readonly... send mail? |
| 23:52 | <weinigLap> | Hixie: pardon? |
| 23:52 | <weinigLap> | oh, send you an email, my bad |
| 23:52 | <Hixie> | sorry, yeah, i meant send mail to whatwg⊙wo to report the error :-) |
| 23:52 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: yt? |
| 23:53 | <weinigLap> | Hixie: doing it now, thanks |
| 23:54 | <Hixie> | np |
| 23:54 | <Hixie> | thanks you! |