| 08:21 | <zcorpan_> | hmm, wonder if "the title element" is right |
| 08:24 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: why? |
| 08:25 | <zcorpan_> | it seems too restrictive relative to what browsers implement |
| 08:25 | <zcorpan_> | and only opera seems to reflect document changes |
| 08:26 | <zcorpan_> | e.g., if you move the title element from head to body, does it stop being the title element? |
| 08:27 | <zcorpan_> | if you insert a new title before the title element, which is "the title element"? |
| 08:34 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: seems like an opportunity for test-based detailed review. :-) |
| 08:36 | <zcorpan_> | hsivonen: indeed :) |
| 08:36 | zcorpan_ | has 10 tests already |
| 08:39 | <othermaciej> | 10 tests for what? |
| 08:39 | <zcorpan_> | document.title |
| 08:39 | <zcorpan_> | getting |
| 08:45 | <hsivonen> | I have no idea how to make a sane streaming approximatin of the AAA |
| 08:45 | <hsivonen> | will leave it undone for now |
| 08:46 | <zcorpan_> | that isn't drocanian? |
| 08:46 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: no, non-conforming and non-draconian |
| 08:47 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: halting is draconian |
| 08:47 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: sorry. I misread you |
| 08:47 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: yes, an approximation that isn't draconian |
| 08:47 | <hsivonen> | (and is thereby non-conforming) |
| 08:48 | <zcorpan_> | ok |
| 09:04 | <zcorpan_> | wow |
| 09:05 | <zcorpan_> | safari for windows treats .xht files as text/html |
| 09:40 | <zcorpan_> | where is SVGDocument.title defined? |
| 09:46 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: Section 5.17 in SVG 1.1 |
| 09:51 | <zcorpan_> | thanks |
| 10:35 | zcorpan_ | notes that http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-forms/current-work/#form-submission mixes block and inline content |
| 12:02 | <Xiven-> | hi, hixie just wanted me to pass on the message to anyone at Opera, that he's currently in the Oslo office canteen, so come along and say hi |
| 13:47 | <zcorpan_> | Document.renameNode isn't implemented anywhere, is it |
| 13:51 | <hsivonen> | hmm. I wonder what renameNode does to implemented interfaces. |
| 13:51 | hsivonen | looks up DOM3 |
| 13:52 | <hsivonen> | oh. it returns a new object |
| 14:05 | <zcorpan_> | what are the use-cases of renameNode? |
| 14:05 | <zcorpan_> | seems like something that could be dropped in DOM5 Core... ;) |
| 14:08 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: suppose you have a script that walks an XHTML2 document tree and converts it to XHTML5. you'd renameNode separator to hr |
| 14:08 | <zcorpan_> | wouldn't you use XSLT for that? |
| 14:09 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: not according to http://hixie.ch/advocacy/xslt |
| 14:10 | <zcorpan_> | ok |
| 14:10 | <zcorpan_> | the bigger problem though is serving xhtml2 over the wire in the first place |
| 14:10 | <hsivonen> | sure |
| 14:11 | <hsivonen> | I don't know but I guess that renameNode exists to have full API-provided mutability |
| 14:11 | <Philip`> | You could be using DOM methods on the server side to transform something into XHTML5 |
| 14:11 | <hsivonen> | I'd expect to see more use case for renameNode on server-side Java apps than in scripts running in browsers |
| 14:11 | <hsivonen> | cases |
| 14:12 | <zcorpan_> | yeah |
| 14:12 | <zcorpan_> | for client side i can only see the use-case of writing obscure test cases |
| 14:13 | <hsivonen> | on the face of it, it looks like a "nice to have", "for completeness" feature |
| 14:13 | <zcorpan_> | so it could have been useful to me today if it was implemented anywhere |
| 14:13 | <zcorpan_> | yeah |
| 14:23 | <billyjack> | fwiw, I expect we are going to see a lot more developers making use of client-side XSLT now that browser support has improved significantly |
| 14:23 | <MikeSmith> | for example, Webkit adding support for the node-set() function |
| 14:24 | <MikeSmith> | it is painful to try to get much done on XSLT 1.0 without node-set() |
| 14:24 | <MikeSmith> | s/done on/done itn/ |
| 14:24 | <MikeSmith> | done in |
| 14:24 | <MikeSmith> | in in in |
| 14:41 | <Philip`> | When counting tag frequency, it's a good idea to not parse PDF files |
| 15:14 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: what makes you think that? :P |
| 15:16 | <gsnedders> | now, back to writing a 1:1 implementation of the common microsyntaxes |
| 15:17 | <Philip`> | The number of tag names which are ~150 characters long and only ever appear once and are full of non-ASCII characters does suggest that some filtering out of non-HTML files would help give slightly cleaner results :-) |
| 15:18 | <hsivonen> | the internationalization bomb is about to go off regarding ratios... |
| 15:18 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: I saw. We seem to be managing fine with how UAs currently work, though… |
| 15:19 | <Philip`> | I still get a relatively large number of tags named scr"+"ipt - I'm not sure if that suggests it would be worth using a whole HTML parser when trying to do surveys of tag frequency, just to find and exclude the non-PCDATA bits |
| 15:20 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: what do you mean? are there shipped implementations of the ratio algorithm except mine inside the conformance checker? |
| 15:20 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: I mean for the other places where numbers are used (@height and @width will be the most widespread) |
| 15:21 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: those are attributes--not element content |
| 15:22 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: that's true, but how much of a difference should it really make? |
| 15:22 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: it makes *all* the difference as far as internationazation politics go |
| 15:22 | <hsivonen> | gotta go |
| 15:23 | <Philip`> | Do 'international' people actually use number characters other than 0-9? |
| 15:23 | <Philip`> | I don't know how to find out, but at least http://www.aljazeera.net/ and http://divyabhaskar.co.in/ appear to just have normal digits everywhere |
| 15:26 | <Philip`> | ...and I believe I remember a Hebrew-speaking person say they never use the Hebrew number system |
| 15:44 | <Dashiva> | Philip`: Which context? |
| 15:48 | <Philip`> | Dashiva: Which context for what? |
| 15:48 | <Dashiva> | Never using hebrew number system |
| 15:51 | <Philip`> | Ah - I can't really remember now, since it was a long time ago and I wasn't paying that much attention at the time :-p |
| 15:52 | <Philip`> | I think it was originally in the context of i18ning a game's UI, but I can't remember what context their comment was in |
| 15:53 | <Philip`> | (I wanted to support duodecimal Quenya numbers too, but I eventually realised that was just stupid) |
| 16:05 | <MikeSmith> | Philip` - Kanji for numbers are used quite commonly in Japanese and Chinese text |
| 16:05 | <MikeSmith> | particuarly when it's written vertically |
| 16:05 | <MikeSmith> | but also in e-mail |
| 16:05 | <MikeSmith> | and other contexts I'm probably forgetting about |
| 16:06 | <MikeSmith> | addresses |
| 16:06 | <MikeSmith> | postal addresses |
| 16:41 | <Dashiva> | MikeSmith: Calculations and time seems to be pretty dominated by roman numerals, though |
| 20:05 | <zcorpan_> | hsivonen: opera's fosterparenting doesn't seem generic handling in the css... (using divs with display:table etc doesn't result in the same thing) |
| 20:06 | <zcorpan_> | s/seem/seem to be/ |
| 20:08 | <zcorpan_> | hsivonen: opera seems to use an anonymous caption element around the misplaced content |
| 20:09 | <zcorpan_> | (which is similar to what ie does -- only difference is ie actually adds the anonymous element to the dom) |
| 20:09 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: ok. interesting |
| 20:10 | <zcorpan_> | e.g. try caption-side:bottom |
| 20:11 | <zcorpan_> | or * { display:block } |
| 20:14 | <hsivonen> | I wonder why hyatt and Hixie didn't put a caption there. not worth the trouble? |
| 20:15 | <zcorpan_> | instead of moving things around in the dom? |
| 20:20 | <hsivonen> | no, in addition to moving to a different place |
| 20:22 | <zcorpan_> | what's the benefit? |
| 20:23 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: matching IE |
| 20:24 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: probably not worth it |
| 20:24 | <zcorpan_> | it does affect rendering in some cases, but firefox and safari seem to not need it |
| 20:25 | <zcorpan_> | and if you were to add a real "caption" element to the dom, you might break other things |
| 20:25 | <zcorpan_> | ie adds an element with the empty string as tag name |
| 20:26 | <zcorpan_> | how do you select that with css? :) |
| 20:27 | <hsivonen> | oh. crazy. |
| 20:28 | <zcorpan_> | in any case, if we were to use the caption approach, then we wouldn't need to move things around in the dom |
| 20:29 | <othermaciej> | empty string as tag name? for what? |
| 20:30 | <zcorpan_> | othermaciej: parent element of text node "foo" in <table><tr><td>x</tr>foo<tr><td>y</table> |
| 20:31 | <othermaciej> | awesome |
| 20:33 | <zcorpan_> | come to think of it, opera probably uses the same anonymous element approach with misnested block in inline when the inline styling gets applied to text nodes even though the inline element isn't an ancestor to the text node |
| 23:57 | <MikeSmith> | Dashiva - about usage in Japan of kanji numerals vs roman numerals: Yeah, true that calculations are dominated by roman numerals |
| 23:57 | <MikeSmith> | but not true about time |
| 23:58 | <MikeSmith> | at least in writing about time in the body of a message or document or whatever |
| 23:58 | <MikeSmith> | when it's quite common to write stuff like 三時半 |
| 23:59 | <MikeSmith> | =3:30 |
| 23:59 | <MikeSmith> | or 一時間半 |
| 23:59 | <MikeSmith> | to talk about something that takes 1.5 hours |