| 01:05 | <kingryan> | it seems that the sniffing section doesn't mention BOMs |
| 01:05 | <kingryan> | I wonder if that's on purpose |
| 01:07 | <kingryan> | Hixie ? |
| 01:40 | <Hixie> | kingryan: here now |
| 01:40 | <kingryan> | I was wondering about BOMs in the html vs feed sniffing |
| 01:41 | <kingryan> | the other sniffing subsections mentoin BOMs, but not that one. is it for a reason? |
| 01:41 | Hixie | looks |
| 01:42 | <kingryan> | I also sent email about this a minute ago |
| 01:42 | <kingryan> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#content-type3 is the relevant section |
| 01:44 | <Hixie> | oh you mean why doesn't it skip over a UTF-8 BOM if it sees one at the start? |
| 01:45 | <Hixie> | i suppose i could add a step between steps 4 and 5 that skips a BOM if there is one |
| 01:45 | <kingryan> | yes, that's what I mean |
| 01:46 | <kingryan> | it'd be useful to add a step there. I implemented that section very literally, then it failed on test cases that had BOMs |
| 01:47 | <kingryan> | I was able to figure out the problem quickly, but it'd be nice if the spec was explicit about that |
| 01:50 | <Hixie> | kingryan: k |
| 01:51 | <kingryan> | thanks |
| 01:51 | <Hixie> | kingryan: i've saved your e-mail to my parsing/sniffing pile |
| 01:51 | <Hixie> | hopefully it was clear enough that i'll understand what it means when i look at it :-) |
| 01:51 | <kingryan> | I hope so too |
| 06:17 | <Lachy> | Is there anything Rob won't object to?https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=189643#c7 |
| 06:17 | <othermaciej> | impressive |
| 06:19 | <karlUshi> | Lachy: given that people banned +1 on the list :) I guess yes when people expressed themselves is usually to disagree. Then after it's always difficult to consider how much energy and bandwidth do we have when we object. |
| 06:19 | <karlUshi> | Sometimes I don't fight for some issues because I just do not have time for it |
| 06:19 | <karlUshi> | and I expect someone else will do it later on. |
| 06:20 | Hixie | closes the aforementioned bug |
| 06:21 | <Hixie> | and as qa contact, it's my responsibility to do so! |
| 06:21 | <othermaciej> | conflict of interest! |
| 06:21 | <karlUshi> | heheh |
| 06:22 | <Lachy> | I also filed https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=392994 (Rob hasn't objected there yet) |
| 06:23 | <Hixie> | he probably didn't know about it before you posted it on irc just now |
| 06:24 | <Lachy> | yeah, I know, but I figured there would be others in here who would be interested in it despite that |
| 06:25 | <Hixie> | lol, he just commented |
| 06:26 | <molly> | :: shakes off whatever logic might have been stuck to her :: |
| 06:26 | <molly> | Hi everyone! |
| 06:26 | <Hixie> | hey molly |
| 06:26 | <molly> | Ian, how are you? |
| 06:26 | <molly> | nice to see you |
| 06:28 | <molly> | who else is around? |
| 06:28 | <molly> | I never know, I'm so time-zone impaired |
| 06:29 | <molly> | Lachy? |
| 06:29 | <karlUshi> | hi molly |
| 06:29 | <molly> | Hiya |
| 06:29 | <Lachy> | molly? |
| 06:29 | <Hixie> | it's pretty much active 24h/day around here |
| 06:29 | <molly> | Hi Lachy! |
| 06:29 | <molly> | just have to poke 'em ;-) |
| 06:29 | <karlUshi> | 2:37pm here |
| 06:29 | <molly> | 10:38 Monday night here |
| 06:29 | <molly> | i have ice cream! Anyone want ice cream? |
| 06:30 | <othermaciej> | hello Molly |
| 06:30 | <karlUshi> | with the 35deg C out there that would be welcome |
| 06:30 | <molly> | hey Maciej (I just cannot call you othermaciej, you are my only maciej) |
| 06:30 | <karlUshi> | ooops 32ºC only today http://weather.yahoo.co.jp/weather/jp/14/4610/14205/2520816.html |
| 06:30 | <molly> | hey, I'll up you on that karlUshi, it's hotter here |
| 06:30 | Lachy | wants ice cream |
| 06:31 | <karlUshi> | maybe at the TPAC molly ;) |
| 06:31 | <karlUshi> | in the so hoooot Boston |
| 06:31 | <molly> | I have three flavors: Triple Chocolate, Butter Pecan, and Mint Chocolate Chip |
| 06:31 | <molly> | Hey KarlUshi, i'll be there |
| 06:31 | <molly> | awesome! |
| 06:32 | <molly> | I like getting to talk to folks F2f and meet up |
| 06:32 | <karlUshi> | good luck molly, you know there are these folks who only talk through IRC :) bring your computer. F2F by IRC :p (half joking) |
| 06:33 | <karlUshi> | Though last time at Xtech in Paris, it was quite lively |
| 06:33 | <molly> | karlUshi, I'm a girl. We're known for our multitasking skills! |
| 06:33 | <Hixie> | aw man, rob burns is starting to send his e-mails twice under different subject lines |
| 06:33 | <molly> | I liked it. It was a beginning. |
| 06:33 | Hixie | isn't going to be able to keep up with the e-mail flood if people start sending dupes |
| 06:34 | <molly> | @hixie I don't know how you do now |
| 06:34 | <molly> | the single biggest barrier to entry |
| 06:34 | <molly> | too much stuff to read. |
| 06:35 | <hober> | I've managed to stay on top of the list, but that doesn't leave much time to actually write posts to it. :) |
| 06:35 | <Hixie> | molly: i read pretty much all the mail on the list at the moment |
| 06:36 | Lachy | updates Selectors-API based based on Working Group vote and hopes the naming issue is resolved for good! http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2006/webapi/selectors-api/Overview.html?content-type=text/html;%20charset=utf-8 |
| 06:36 | <molly> | Hixie, that's so cool. You know I'm in awe. |
| 06:36 | <molly> | Truly, truly. |
| 06:36 | <karlUshi> | Too much too read? :)))) un chef d'oeuvre - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Com%A9die_humaine |
| 06:36 | <molly> | needs to be even more simplistic |
| 06:36 | <molly> | sad but true |
| 06:36 | <molly> | I'm serious |
| 06:37 | <molly> | that's why the red-mark idea is so brilliant |
| 06:37 | <molly> | what do you think Hixie? |
| 06:37 | <molly> | I thought that was awesome, and I want to work with that |
| 06:38 | <Hixie> | which idea? marking the big known issues in the draft? |
| 06:38 | <othermaciej> | Lachy: I just thought of a great new name! |
| 06:38 | othermaciej | ducks |
| 06:38 | <molly> | Hixie: yes, please |
| 06:39 | <molly> | othermaciej: for what |
| 06:39 | <molly> | and you best duck for Lachy, he's really tall. I've met him! |
| 06:39 | <Lachy> | othermaciej, is it goAndGetMeStuff() and goAndGetMeAllStuff()? |
| 06:39 | <molly> | ;-) |
| 06:39 | <karlUshi> | for the selectors API doc |
| 06:39 | <othermaciej> | Molly: the Selectors API naming debate has been a watershed for bike sheds |
| 06:39 | <karlUshi> | sudoGoAndGetMeStuff() ? |
| 06:39 | <othermaciej> | Lachy: wow, those are even better |
| 06:40 | <Hixie> | molly: that's already done |
| 06:41 | <molly> | So Hixie, All - if we take those one by one, can we do a good, easy explanation for each "hot topic"? |
| 06:41 | <molly> | also, I need the best description of WHY HTML 5 is necessary. I have a great quote from Lachy, and another from Dean Edwards |
| 06:41 | <Lachy> | what quote from me? |
| 06:41 | <molly> | but, not completely convincing to the complacent world at large |
| 06:42 | <molly> | damn, he would ask, hang on ;-) |
| 06:42 | <hober> | I liked Hixie's explanation along the lines of "very long-term survival of our cultural output" |
| 06:42 | <othermaciej> | if we've upgraded the web to 2.0, we should really bump the version number of the standards too |
| 06:42 | <molly> | hober, I love that too, but it isn't explicit. It's the way I might describe something and people call me weird when I do it |
| 06:43 | <Hixie> | molly: http://blog.whatwg.org/faq covers most of those issues, you might want to crib from there |
| 06:43 | <molly> | they just call Hixie really smart when he does it :P |
| 06:43 | <Hixie> | people generally call me an asshole, actually :-P |
| 06:43 | <molly> | that's because they haven't met you |
| 06:43 | <othermaciej> | a little from column A, a little from column B |
| 06:44 | <molly> | lol! |
| 06:44 | <Hixie> | one big reason for html5 is that the languages that the web are built are are showing their age, and are facing competition from proprietary technologies like flash and silverlight |
| 06:45 | <molly> | I think we need to distill it in real ways like "this is why you would use this element and how" |
| 06:45 | <molly> | and also tell that to browser implementors as well as tools folks |
| 06:45 | <Hixie> | we need to bring the web's open, standard, vendor-neutral technologies up to the state of the art if we are to keep the web's openness safe from vendor lockin |
| 06:45 | <molly> | right now, I think people are just sort of like, okay, let's implement css 2.1 |
| 06:45 | <molly> | :: bangs head on desk :: |
| 06:45 | <molly> | I mean, look at iPhone |
| 06:45 | <othermaciej> | what about it? |
| 06:46 | <molly> | beautiful device |
| 06:46 | <othermaciej> | I think it has a pretty decent implementation of css 2.1 |
| 06:46 | <molly> | how about just making sure it also implements handheld css |
| 06:46 | <karlUshi> | http://blog.wired.com/monkeybites/2007/08/the-iphone-is-i.html |
| 06:46 | <karlUshi> | "The IPhone Is Internet Explorer 4 All Over Again" |
| 06:46 | <othermaciej> | we don't claim to be the handheld media type because in the cases where it makes a difference, that leads to a worse experience for the user |
| 06:47 | <karlUshi> | http://www.w3.org/QA/2007/08/iphone_developer_guidelines_pr.html |
| 06:47 | <molly> | i actually would challenge that. I just saw an "iPhone enhanced" experience which meant really using webcore |
| 06:47 | <karlUshi> | "iPhone Developer Guidelines Promote One Web, Open Standards" |
| 06:48 | <karlUshi> | molly: this is the point of the first article |
| 06:48 | <molly> | i'm so cool with awesome stuff. I mean, blow my mind. Always |
| 06:48 | <molly> | BUT |
| 06:48 | <karlUshi> | to have this iPhone enhanced |
| 06:48 | <molly> | do it with the baseline there |
| 06:48 | <molly> | My brother Linus always told me I was going to end up the Ralph Nader of the Web |
| 06:48 | <othermaciej> | we encourage standards-based design first and foremost |
| 06:48 | <molly> | that was a decade ago |
| 06:48 | <molly> | sigh. |
| 06:49 | <molly> | wait, you guys don't get it |
| 06:49 | <molly> | I have nothing against WHAT WG |
| 06:49 | <molly> | never have! |
| 06:49 | <karlUshi> | "The first design rules for web applications on iPhone are to stick with web standards and follow established web design practices." -- http://developer.apple.com/iphone/designingcontent.html |
| 06:49 | <molly> | I love the entire idea and exercise |
| 06:49 | <othermaciej> | iphone-optimized content generally works in other browsers |
| 06:49 | <molly> | I'm just not fucking certain the W3C actually HELPS YOU |
| 06:49 | <othermaciej> | there are sadly some sites that lock non-iphone browsers out of the iphone version |
| 06:49 | <molly> | or vice versa |
| 06:49 | <karlUshi> | ohoh |
| 06:49 | <karlUshi> | :))) |
| 06:50 | <molly> | what, patents? |
| 06:50 | <karlUshi> | schizophrenia ahead |
| 06:50 | <molly> | why do you say that KarlUshi? |
| 06:51 | <karlUshi> | because many people here are part of the two :) |
| 06:51 | <molly> | so what |
| 06:51 | <molly> | one could say I am, sorta |
| 06:51 | <karlUshi> | [14:58] <molly> I'm just not fucking certain the W3C actually HELPS YOU |
| 06:51 | <karlUshi> | :) |
| 06:51 | <molly> | KarlUshi, that's fair |
| 06:51 | <molly> | I can't argue that at all, and I won't |
| 06:52 | <molly> | I wish it could though. |
| 06:52 | <molly> | I always, perhaps innocently |
| 06:52 | <molly> | looked at the W3C as the wisdom |
| 06:52 | <karlUshi> | for me it's like your left brain saying "be careful, your right brain will not help you" |
| 06:52 | <karlUshi> | eeeek |
| 06:52 | <molly> | my brain isn't that clearly split. It's kinda mixed ;-) |
| 06:52 | <karlUshi> | wisdom? |
| 06:53 | <molly> | I've been in IT since 1988 and the web since 1992.5. Weird |
| 06:53 | <karlUshi> | why people create always religion of organizations :) it is a lot more basic than that. |
| 06:53 | <molly> | I like to think maybe my longevity |
| 06:53 | <molly> | has given me *some* |
| 06:53 | <molly> | maybe not a lot |
| 06:53 | <molly> | but *some* wisdom? Anyone? |
| 06:53 | <othermaciej> | given that the w3c wanted to have an effort to make a new official version of HTML, it seems to make sense to work together |
| 06:53 | <molly> | Help me out here. |
| 06:53 | <othermaciej> | benefits of working with w3c: |
| 06:53 | <karlUshi> | othermaciej: yes. That's the point. |
| 06:53 | <othermaciej> | - clear patent policy |
| 06:54 | <othermaciej> | - brand value of having the premier web standards body support the spec |
| 06:54 | <othermaciej> | - potential for companies like Microsoft to participate |
| 06:54 | <othermaciej> | - avoidance of needlessly fragmenting the marketplace |
| 06:55 | <karlUshi> | (wider reviews by wider audience) |
| 06:55 | <molly> | I think we have our main headers for our first WHY HTML5 article for the public ;-) |
| 06:55 | <molly> | seriously, that's awesome |
| 06:55 | <molly> | broadly |
| 06:56 | <molly> | then there are specifics |
| 06:56 | <molly> | the accessibility issue, Ruby? That's cool but how many people have really adopted XHTML 1.1 to support RUBY? c'mon. |
| 06:56 | <Hixie> | the only two reasons we considered going to the w3c was to get the pateny policy easily and to get microsoft on board (which was actually the same thing, they wanted whatwg to have a patent policy) |
| 06:56 | <Hixie> | the w3c brand actually didn't matter at all |
| 06:57 | <molly> | I know. I speak to Chris a lot due to my work at MS (which I have to say is surprisingly awesome) |
| 06:57 | <molly> | but he is clearly upset about IP |
| 06:57 | <molly> | I have opposed him as WG co-lead anyway |
| 06:57 | <molly> | long ago and far away |
| 06:57 | karlUshi | is smiling at illusions |
| 06:57 | <molly> | he's my friend, and my colleague, and certainly smart enough and more knowledgeable than most of us here |
| 06:58 | <molly> | but WTF? |
| 06:58 | <molly> | am I nuts (okay, yes, I am but.) |
| 06:59 | <karlUshi> | you are just molly (c) |
| 06:59 | <othermaciej> | in its current incomplete state I would summarize the benefits as: |
| 06:59 | <othermaciej> | - better cross-browser compatibility (since things are more explicitly defined) |
| 06:59 | <othermaciej> | - better support for the semantics of modern web documents like weblogs and wikis |
| 07:00 | <othermaciej> | - better support for rich web applications |
| 07:00 | <othermaciej> | - better built-in support for non-text media |
| 07:01 | <othermaciej> | of course that kind of shows my personal biases of what I care about |
| 07:01 | <othermaciej> | others with different priorities might give a different summary |
| 07:01 | <molly> | anyone ever have a great experience where everything slows down and there's a great soundtrack? And everything you ever dreamed of, well, it's right there |
| 07:02 | <othermaciej> | that seems inappropriate to discuss on a family channel |
| 07:02 | <molly> | tangent: |
| 07:02 | <molly> | I'm collecting stats |
| 07:02 | <molly> | the W3C staff notes 52 males to 15 females |
| 07:02 | <molly> | WHAT WG? |
| 07:02 | <molly> | any stats or assumed stats? |
| 07:03 | <othermaciej> | it doesn't have any staff |
| 07:03 | <Hixie> | there's no WHATWG staff |
| 07:03 | <molly> | no the W3C |
| 07:03 | <Hixie> | so we have a perfect balance of male and female |
| 07:03 | <othermaciej> | so 0 to 0 |
| 07:03 | <molly> | who they pay. I also want to collect info as to WGs and alternative groups such as WHAT WG and microformats.org |
| 07:03 | <molly> | etc. |
| 07:04 | <molly> | Hixie, what a spin, wheeeee...... |
| 07:04 | <molly> | I love that! |
| 07:04 | <molly> | How'd he do that guys? |
| 07:05 | <molly> | honestly, how many girls stop by here |
| 07:05 | <molly> | day to day |
| 07:05 | <Hixie> | no idea |
| 07:05 | <molly> | include me, even if I'm no longer a girl |
| 07:05 | <molly> | okay, who PARTICIPATE |
| 07:05 | Hixie | doesn't actually know the genders of most of the people here to be honest |
| 07:05 | <molly> | Hixie, that's okay. I think you scare most people anyway. |
| 07:06 | <karlUshi> | molly: we don't ask for genders when people participate in the groups |
| 07:06 | <othermaciej> | there's really no way to estimate, except to look at the mailing list and guess based on name |
| 07:06 | <Hixie> | i actively try to not know the affiliations and personal backgrounds of most contributors, as i don't think it affects the value of their input |
| 07:06 | <molly> | okay, just doing my stats homework |
| 07:06 | <molly> | I will say just that |
| 07:06 | <karlUshi> | as the staff contact of the HTML WG and approving all applications, I have not counted but that would mean I know all type of names |
| 07:06 | <molly> | I wasn't trying to be gender aggressive, I really prefer men anyway |
| 07:06 | <karlUshi> | the most common example is |
| 07:06 | <molly> | it's just that I was asked to give some stats |
| 07:06 | <karlUshi> | anne |
| 07:06 | <karlUshi> | girl or boy ;) |
| 07:07 | <karlUshi> | but molly you can try to guess here |
| 07:07 | <karlUshi> | v |
| 07:07 | <karlUshi> | http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=40318&public=1 |
| 07:07 | <molly> | oh well, I met Anne when he still has spots. They cleared up last time I saw him though. He's clearly male. And a beautiful brilliant boy at that |
| 07:07 | <molly> | don't mistake me for someone who just shows up to cause trouble |
| 07:08 | <molly> | I really only show up |
| 07:08 | <molly> | to cause trouble ;-) |
| 07:08 | <molly> | But I really do show up ;-) |
| 07:10 | <molly> | I mean, clearly |
| 07:10 | <karlUshi> | molly: and if you want a distribution by country, which is far to be complete |
| 07:10 | <karlUshi> | http://esw.w3.org/topic/PeopleLocation |
| 07:10 | <Lachy> | molly, I don't understand why it matters what the gender stats are |
| 07:10 | <molly> | I'm sure you don't |
| 07:11 | <molly> | sorry, I didn't start this |
| 07:11 | <karlUshi> | :) |
| 07:11 | <molly> | I was asked |
| 07:11 | <molly> | but honestly guys |
| 07:11 | <molly> | think about it |
| 07:11 | <molly> | you can say "no gender bias" all you want |
| 07:11 | <molly> | give me 10 women active |
| 07:11 | <Hixie> | there's clearly a gender bias |
| 07:11 | <molly> | and I'll shut the fuck up |
| 07:11 | <Hixie> | it's across the entire tech industry |
| 07:11 | <molly> | actually, I'll STFU anyway |
| 07:11 | <molly> | yes, that's my point. I'm NOT drawing you guys out. |
| 07:12 | <molly> | :X |
| 07:12 | Hixie | participates in FIRST high school programmes to encourage gender-balance tech participation |
| 07:12 | <molly> | please don't get defensive |
| 07:12 | <Hixie> | (amongst other things) |
| 07:12 | <Hixie> | just sayin' :-) |
| 07:12 | <Hixie> | i encourage everyone to do that kind of stuff |
| 07:12 | <Hixie> | it's hella fun |
| 07:12 | <molly> | so my job sometimes means saying "look at this, it's Fugly" |
| 07:12 | <karlUshi> | molly: I think that some issues are difficult to understand when people do not live them. Gender, racial, Culture, etc |
| 07:12 | <molly> | right? Yes. |
| 07:12 | <molly> | Me too. |
| 07:12 | <othermaciej> | given the gender composition of the tech industry in general, of standards groups in particular, there's probably significantly more men actively involved than women |
| 07:12 | <molly> | I agree Karl |
| 07:13 | <molly> | I think I *might* know something about this |
| 07:13 | <molly> | maybe not that much |
| 07:13 | <molly> | but a little? |
| 07:13 | <othermaciej> | there have been at least some number of people with female-sounding names that I don't spefically know to be male who have posted on public-html |
| 07:13 | <karlUshi> | yep othermaciej |
| 07:13 | <molly> | it's not about HTML5 |
| 07:14 | <molly> | as Hixie mentioned, it's industry wide, world wide in fact |
| 07:14 | <molly> | but don't you think having some girls around is good? |
| 07:14 | <molly> | I mean really! |
| 07:15 | karlUshi | agrees |
| 07:15 | <molly> | we smell good |
| 07:16 | <molly> | and bring food. |
| 07:16 | <othermaciej> | Molly: we're just doing our best to give you the info you asked for -- there aren't good stats on this, so all we can do is extrapolate |
| 07:16 | <karlUshi> | molly: not all girls smell good, but the same goes with guys ;) |
| 07:17 | <molly> | I know, but I also felt some defensiveness. I think mostly you're a lot of guys who are really smart and don't have any idea why more women are involved with HTML5 and tech in general |
| 07:17 | <molly> | but would welcome them |
| 07:17 | <molly> | particularly if they smelled good and brought food. |
| 07:17 | <molly> | LOL Karl |
| 07:17 | <molly> | Don't want to ask who YOU've been hanging with! |
| 07:17 | <karlUshi> | :D |
| 07:17 | <othermaciej> | I don't tend to have that particular thought |
| 07:17 | <othermaciej> | I try to treat people as people |
| 07:18 | <karlUshi> | I'm a cow |
| 07:18 | <Hixie> | yeah like i said, i don't care what gender contributors have |
| 07:18 | <molly> | I'm proud of all of you for that |
| 07:18 | <molly> | maybe I'm just a different generation |
| 07:18 | <molly> | that still feels it needs to provide good pathways |
| 07:18 | <molly> | etc. etc. |
| 07:18 | <othermaciej> | fwiw the engineering team that reports to me has an unusually high proportion of women for a software engineering team, and I have encouraged all of them to participate more in web standards, but I am not going to force anybody to post |
| 07:19 | <molly> | i think the workforce is changing |
| 07:19 | <othermaciej> | (40%) |
| 07:19 | <molly> | it's just at the upper layers - speakers, spec writers, etc. |
| 07:19 | <Lachy> | I just did a quick skim of the HTMLWG members and counted about 20 names that could possibly be female, and I'm probably wrong about 15 of them :-)\ |
| 07:19 | <molly> | hahaha |
| 07:19 | <molly> | I love you Lachlan |
| 07:19 | <Hixie> | yeah google as a company has a much higher than average female:male engineer ratio |
| 07:19 | <molly> | that's great. |
| 07:19 | <Hixie> | and does a lot to encourage that as an industry trend |
| 07:19 | <Hixie> | (like sponsor FIRST) |
| 07:20 | <karlUshi> | interesting |
| 07:20 | <Lachy> | there were about 200 names that were complete foreign and ambiguous though, so my count isn't at all accurate |
| 07:20 | <Hixie> | the problem mostly stems from the education sector, though, i think |
| 07:20 | <othermaciej> | I'm lucky enough that if I told my team that what I like best about them is that they bring food and smell good, they would probably laugh at me rather thangetting angry |
| 07:20 | <karlUshi> | we often talk about female:male engineer ratio, but never about female:male comm ratio, or female:male admin ratio |
| 07:20 | <molly> | this is why I'm doing the train the trainer program |
| 07:20 | <molly> | it's not all about women either |
| 07:21 | <molly> | I mean how many black americans? Hispanics? Etc. |
| 07:21 | <karlUshi> | how many cows? !!!! |
| 07:21 | <molly> | the IT world is still one based on class |
| 07:21 | <molly> | Karl, you still can't let go of the cow? |
| 07:21 | <molly> | I mean, isn't this a zen thing |
| 07:21 | <karlUshi> | ;) that's my blood |
| 07:21 | <molly> | "I let go of the cow" |
| 07:22 | <othermaciej> | I think large parts of the IT business world are pretty egalitarian in attitude -- most engineering types don't care too much who's doing the work if they can code |
| 07:23 | <othermaciej> | although there are clearly pockets of bad attitude and inappropriate behavior |
| 07:23 | <karlUshi> | http://www.normandieweb.org/nature/vache/images/JMLvache01.jpg |
| 07:23 | <othermaciej> | I would say the biggest issue is the education pipeline |
| 07:23 | <molly> | I am totally the wrong person to talk about women in the IT world. My best mentors have been men, men have helped me all my life. I love men. I trust them more than women. |
| 07:24 | <othermaciej> | engineering is also an occupation that's unusually easy to enter as a self-taught practitioner; but very few women choose that path |
| 07:24 | <karlUshi> | molly: interesting I had almost the same exact opposite thing |
| 07:24 | <molly> | I guess we can call it meritocracy |
| 07:24 | <karlUshi> | prior to W3C, all my boss have been... women, even in Astrophysics Research |
| 07:24 | <molly> | if you earn it |
| 07:24 | <molly> | you get the respect. That's been my sense |
| 07:24 | <molly> | I've only been insulted by trolls. True colleagues have disagreed, but always respected |
| 07:25 | <molly> | that makes me feel very good as a person |
| 07:25 | <molly> | I always have men as bosses |
| 07:25 | <molly> | except my mother |
| 07:25 | <molly> | lol |
| 07:25 | <molly> | gay men a lot, too |
| 07:25 | <molly> | wonder why |
| 07:25 | <molly> | not that it matters |
| 07:26 | <molly> | weren't we talking about gender indifference? |
| 07:26 | <molly> | I wish it were that way, young men |
| 07:26 | <molly> | but it's not, not quite |
| 07:26 | <molly> | but you guys are paving the cowpaths |
| 07:26 | <molly> | :: cough cough : |
| 07:30 | <Hixie> | ok so |
| 07:30 | <Hixie> | i have a few minutes to work on whatwg stuff before bed time |
| 07:31 | <molly> | Hixie: Peter from WSG, with 4k members, wants to help organize a world-wide F2F |
| 07:31 | <molly> | I'd like to work on that |
| 07:31 | <Hixie> | isn't that what we're doing in november |
| 07:31 | <molly> | well, there's the Technical Plenary and we talked about that |
| 07:31 | <molly> | but nothing was confirmed that I know of |
| 07:31 | <Lachy> | how would a world wide F2F work? |
| 07:32 | <molly> | to do some worldwide F2F |
| 07:32 | <molly> | Lachy, all ideas welcome |
| 07:32 | <molly> | we need several core cities |
| 07:32 | <Lachy> | meet in various locations around the world and hook up via satellite and IRC |
| 07:32 | <molly> | where people can gather |
| 07:32 | <molly> | yep |
| 07:32 | <Hixie> | just for socialising? or? |
| 07:32 | <molly> | we have to figure out the time/space continuum but I'm sure we can handle that |
| 07:33 | <molly> | Hixie, you mentioned that it's suffering to work on specs F2F |
| 07:33 | <molly> | and I agreed |
| 07:33 | Hixie | doesn't think this is something he can really do in the next hour or so :-) |
| 07:33 | <karlUshi> | world-wide F2F on How To Make Love. Great! |
| 07:33 | <molly> | so I think it shouldn't be actual spec work but discussion around key points |
| 07:33 | <Hixie> | molly: well, it's hard to ahve meetings of any productive kind that are more than about 3 people |
| 07:33 | <Hixie> | molly: but social gathering do help oil the wheels, as it were |
| 07:33 | <Hixie> | i don't know what i can do about it myself though |
| 07:33 | <molly> | Yes, Ian, I know, as I've witnessed |
| 07:34 | <molly> | with you there ;-) |
| 07:34 | <molly> | so my point is the F2F brings the good connections |
| 07:34 | <molly> | and we should discuss key points |
| 07:34 | <molly> | but we should bring those back to discussion |
| 07:34 | <molly> | not make it an actual spec meeting |
| 07:34 | <Lachy> | hmm. a bar camp style meeting would probably work |
| 07:35 | <molly> | I think so |
| 07:35 | <molly> | but more focused |
| 07:35 | <molly> | anyway, that's my thought |
| 07:36 | <Hixie> | well i suggest we try that and see what the one-location meeting in november works out like first, but yes |
| 07:36 | <Hixie> | it'd be great if we got an agenda for that meeting soon though |
| 07:36 | <molly> | well, we did a one location gig in Paris |
| 07:36 | <molly> | you weren't there, but we had quite a turnout with Anne and Henri, etc |
| 07:37 | <Lachy> | my major concern with with idea is the problem of getting 400+ people meeting up simultaneously around the world isn't easy |
| 07:37 | <molly> | well, the agenda has to come out of hot topics, which I need some help on |
| 07:37 | <molly> | I can write the stuff |
| 07:37 | <molly> | I need someone to help me analyze it |
| 07:37 | <molly> | Lachy, we aim for the most |
| 07:37 | <molly> | and people who are truly motivated |
| 07:37 | <othermaciej> | I think doing it barcamp/unconference style reduces the need for a formal agenda |
| 07:37 | <molly> | well, those are your winners |
| 07:38 | <othermaciej> | though suggestions of possible topics can be helpful |
| 07:38 | <molly> | how would you see it maciej? Because that format is very creative and popular |
| 07:38 | <molly> | I think we can come up with a few hot topics here :D |
| 07:38 | <molly> | I'm not so worried about that lol |
| 07:38 | Lachy | is giong to a BarCamp next weekend |
| 07:39 | <Hixie> | by "agenda" i meant a decision from DanC about whether november's meeting would be an unconference or not |
| 07:39 | <hober> | I think the hot topics would naturally bubble to the forefront in an unconference-style gathering |
| 07:39 | <molly> | Hixie, wow. I didn't think of it like that |
| 07:39 | <molly> | I thought they'd do that W3C style. Do you want to advocate for a barcamp style? |
| 07:39 | <molly> | I'd work with you |
| 07:39 | <molly> | I mean, 400 some odd members |
| 07:40 | <molly> | NOT your average Working Group |
| 07:40 | <Hixie> | i asked for us to do that in response to the last meeting we had (last week) |
| 07:40 | <molly> | hey that's awesome |
| 07:40 | <Hixie> | danc said he's noodle on it or something |
| 07:40 | <molly> | How did it go over? |
| 07:40 | <molly> | ok |
| 07:40 | <molly> | what about Chris? |
| 07:40 | <molly> | others? |
| 07:41 | <Hixie> | i have not heard anything from chris |
| 07:41 | <Hixie> | response from others has been mostly positive from what i hear but Dan's the one who has to decide |
| 07:41 | <molly> | wow, okay |
| 07:41 | <molly> | thanks, that was good to know |
| 07:41 | <karlUshi> | :) |
| 07:41 | <molly> | hey, I'm going to bed you guys. Thanks for a great chat as always. More discussion tomorrow I hope. |
| 07:42 | <molly> | ttys |
| 07:44 | <Hixie> | you know given how many complaints there were about lack of transparency about the issues i had, there has been remarkably little response to the e-mail i sent |
| 07:44 | <Hixie> | about the issues list |
| 07:46 | <Lachy> | the complaints about the lack of transparency always confused me, since the whatwg and htmlwg have been the most open and transparent groups compared with many others |
| 07:47 | <Hixie> | Lachy: yeah, well, the issues list was closed, which was a valid complaint. but it is no longer! |
| 07:49 | <hober> | The repeated transparency calls have really given me a strong impression of bureaucray trolling (http://tantek.pbwiki.com/TrollTaxonomy#Bureaucraytroll) |
| 07:50 | <Lachy> | well, the text box placeholder email I sent seemed to get a fairly positive response so far. maybe it would help to send a summary email like that for other issues shortly before you start addressing them |
| 07:51 | <Hixie> | Lachy: that wouldn't really fit my working model |
| 07:51 | <Hixie> | which is to select an e-mail to reply to, and to fix the spec as i'm replying to it |
| 07:51 | <Lachy> | hmm. yeah |
| 07:51 | <Lachy> | I like your model |
| 07:52 | <Lachy> | I'm just trying to think of a way to address people's concerns, even though I actually disagree with them |
| 07:54 | <Hixie> | so... offline web apps, huh |
| 08:02 | <Hixie> | * User goes to a page, then goes offline and uses it, then goes back |
| 08:02 | <Hixie> | online and uses it. The page and its subresources are always at |
| 08:02 | <Hixie> | their most up-to-date. Interactions with the page while offline are |
| 08:02 | <Hixie> | synced to the server when going online. |
| 08:04 | <Lachy> | which folder in your issues list contains the relevenat discussions? |
| 08:04 | <Hixie> | filesystem |
| 08:27 | <Hixie> | hey, i complained, and now people are posting about it |
| 08:27 | <Hixie> | go figure |
| 08:37 | <Lachy> | which DOM3 core features are required that IE7 doesn't support? |
| 08:37 | <Lachy> | for the issues page |
| 08:40 | <Lachy> | Hixie, couldn't you use innerHTML instead of textContent? |
| 08:42 | <Hixie> | not unless i wanted to get pwned |
| 08:42 | <Lachy> | ? |
| 08:42 | <Hixie> | that would open me to XSS bugs |
| 08:42 | <Hixie> | i could use innerText, maybe, but that isn't compliant |
| 08:43 | <Hixie> | and frankly, i don't care if it doesn't work in IE7 |
| 08:43 | <Hixie> | that's IE7's prblem |
| 08:43 | <Lachy> | I didn't know there were security issues with innerHTML |
| 08:43 | <Hixie> | innerHTML parses HTML |
| 08:43 | <Lachy> | oh, so it would parse HTML in the emails |
| 08:43 | <Hixie> | yup |
| 08:44 | <Hixie> | for instance |
| 08:44 | <Lachy> | then use .innerHTML = escape(email); where escape is a function that converts < to <, & and &, etc. |
| 08:44 | <annevk> | .firstChild.data ? |
| 08:44 | <Lachy> | that would work too |
| 08:45 | <Hixie> | .firstChild.data wouldn't blow away the second text node, other elements, etc |
| 08:45 | <Hixie> | what's wrong with textContent? |
| 08:45 | <Hixie> | it's standards compliant and exactly what i want |
| 08:45 | <Lachy> | just that IE users are complaining |
| 08:45 | <Hixie> | that's their problem |
| 08:45 | <Hixie> | they need a better browser |
| 08:45 | <annevk> | x.innerHTML = "foo"; .x.firstChild.data = bar |
| 08:46 | <annevk> | not very nice though |
| 08:46 | <Hixie> | i don't want to instantiate an HTML parser just to remove nodes, that's a performance nightmare |
| 08:46 | <Hixie> | this is slow enough as it is |
| 08:59 | annevk | wonders how closely RB read the XML specification... |
| 09:10 | annevk | wonders why hsivonen didn't opt for the forms TF |
| 09:26 | <annevk> | the bugzilla bugs mentioned earlier are funny |
| 09:27 | <Hixie> | btw if anyone has an urge to write their own frontend to the WHATWG issues thingy, the API is described here: http://www.whatwg.org/issues/API |
| 09:30 | <Hixie> | annevk: feel free to take over on those bugs, i'm leaving it up to the gecko devs at this point |
| 09:30 | <Hixie> | no point arguing back and forth |
| 09:31 | <annevk> | I'm tempted to mark the one he filed INVALID, but since he's reporter he can reopen I believe so it's kind of pointless to do so probably |
| 09:31 | <annevk> | Especially since he his this weird untrackable train of thought on how things are done in the real world and specified in HTML4... |
| 09:34 | <Hixie> | as i understand it basically what he proposes is that usemap="" on <input type=image> only be used for giving tooltips for the <input>, but i don't understand why that would be useful for accessibility, and i don't see any evidence that authors are looking for that |
| 09:34 | <Hixie> | (at least not in numbers that would support this feature in view of hte Baby Steps principle) |
| 09:35 | <annevk> | I suppose they would also become focusable regions |
| 09:35 | <Hixie> | no because he's saying that there'd be no href="" on them |
| 09:35 | <Hixie> | so they'd all be image-map-dead areas |
| 09:35 | <Hixie> | (he's arguing that the clicks on those areas should go through to the <input> element) |
| 09:35 | <Hixie> | (as opposed to being caught by the <area> as you might otherwise expect in dead <area>s) |
| 09:36 | <annevk> | in that case it seems pretty pointless |
| 09:37 | <annevk> | actually, he mentioned yesterday that he would want the <area id> to be submitted as well or something |
| 09:40 | <zcorpan_> | http://blog.whatwg.org/issues |
| 09:41 | <annevk> | maybe update it to reference the API in case people want to hack their own tracker that works in IE? |
| 09:50 | <Hixie> | thanks for fixing my typo :-) |
| 09:50 | <Hixie> | right, bed time |
| 09:50 | <Hixie> | nn |
| 09:51 | <annevk> | g'night |
| 09:54 | <Hixie> | (he reopened the bug for the 2nd time btw) |
| 09:54 | <annevk> | right |
| 09:55 | annevk | gives up |
| 09:58 | <mgdm> | This is great... by tracking the development of new Web stuff, I can learn about things I never new existed... http://www.w3.org/TR/ruby/ |
| 10:00 | <zcorpan_> | Lachy: s#XHTML 1.0#XHTML 1.0 as text/html# in the proposed design principles example |
| 10:00 | <Lachy> | zcorpan_, yes |
| 10:01 | <annevk> | you can use s# too? interesting |
| 10:01 | <Lachy> | I assumed he meant s/.../.../ though I'm not sure how one would make such a typo |
| 10:02 | <annevk> | no, he used a / in the replacement, so using # makes some sense if it's allowed |
| 10:02 | <zcorpan_> | in perl, you can use almost any punctation character |
| 10:02 | <annevk> | ah yeah, I remember something like that from my Perl book |
| 10:03 | <zcorpan_> | s!...!...! works too for instance |
| 10:03 | annevk | made a few hello world scripts once |
| 10:03 | annevk | then learned Python |
| 10:05 | <Lachy> | hmm. I don't think it's worth responding to Rob in bugzilla anymore. There doesn't seem to be anything that can be said, which would help. |
| 10:08 | <Lachy> | wow, this is contradictory: "Safari and IE both support submission of forms with <input type=image usemap=#IDREF >, where IDREF is the name of a MAP element. This is exactly the behavior I'm proposing for Gecko." |
| 10:08 | <Lachy> | So he wants to implement <area> the same way IE and Safari do (which is not at all), but at the same time object to removing support for it. |
| 10:11 | <annevk> | IE is case-insensitive for <label for> too |
| 10:11 | <annevk> | probably Unicode case-insensitive |
| 10:11 | <annevk> | I suspect it might do that for all ID values |
| 10:12 | <Lachy> | I don't think IE implements case sensitivity correctly according to Unicode |
| 10:12 | <annevk> | "In keeping with the spirit of the the recommendation" lol |
| 10:13 | <annevk> | Lachy, that would make sense; it's hardly conforming to anything :) |
| 10:13 | <annevk> | (much like any other browser for that matter, in case someone takes offense at the above) |
| 10:13 | <Lachy> | I find it amusing how he asks us to cite the relevant part of the specifcation to support our argument, but he's just making up the implementation requirements as he goes |
| 10:14 | <Lachy> | I did some testing for Unicode case folding recently |
| 10:16 | Lachy | is looking for the test cases he made |
| 10:24 | <Lachy> | found them. http://lachy.id.au/dev/unicode/test/case-folding (note: may take a while to load) |
| 10:35 | <zcorpan_> | hmmm. we're not happy with implementing all supported interfaces on Document objects |
| 10:36 | <zcorpan_> | we'd rather move members that are useful for all types of documents to the Document interface than to implement HTMLDocument on all documents |
| 10:36 | <zcorpan_> | like cookie and getElementsByClassName |
| 10:38 | <zcorpan_> | perhaps also move getElementsByClassName from HTMLElement to Element |
| 10:42 | <annevk> | that certainly makes sense |
| 10:42 | <annevk> | I still think it makes sense for all documents to implement HTMLDocument for the compound document scenario |
| 10:43 | <zcorpan_> | why? |
| 10:44 | <annevk> | let me put it differently, how to decide which interfaces to implement? |
| 10:45 | <zcorpan_> | yeah, that's also an issue. deciding on the root element's namespace makes sense to me |
| 10:45 | <annevk> | that's to late |
| 10:45 | <zcorpan_> | it's what opera does, no? :) |
| 10:45 | <annevk> | I don't think so |
| 10:46 | <annevk> | I think we do it based on MIME type which is clearly not desirable |
| 10:46 | <zcorpan_> | no, that's what firefox does |
| 10:46 | <zcorpan_> | we decide on root namespace |
| 10:46 | <annevk> | sure? |
| 10:46 | <zcorpan_> | last time i checked |
| 10:47 | <annevk> | how does that work with createDocument() and such? |
| 10:47 | annevk | ponders |
| 10:47 | <zcorpan_> | dunno |
| 10:47 | <zcorpan_> | not sure what happens when you replace the root element either |
| 11:26 | <Lachy> | IMHO, deciding based upon the namespace is the most logical option. |
| 11:32 | <zcorpan_> | Lachy: what happens when you replace the root element? |
| 11:59 | <Lachy> | zcorpan_, it's not possible to replace the root element, since document.documentElement is read only. You'd have to create a new document. |
| 12:00 | <zcorpan_> | hmm |
| 12:01 | <Lachy> | I could be wrong, since I haven't tested it. I'm just going by what the DOM spec said |
| 12:02 | <zcorpan_> | iirc browsers allow it, but that might be a bug then |
| 12:02 | <Lachy> | do you have a test case? |
| 12:03 | <zcorpan_> | btw, documentElement being readonly doesn't imply that you can't remove it |
| 12:03 | <zcorpan_> | it just means that you can't do document.documentElement = somethingelse |
| 12:03 | <Lachy> | how else is it possible to change the root element? |
| 12:04 | <zcorpan_> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cscript%3Ewindow.onload%3Dfunction%28%29%7Bdocument.removeChild%28document.firstChild%29%7D%3C/script%3E |
| 12:04 | <zcorpan_> | with methods on the document |
| 12:07 | <Lachy> | ok |
| 12:08 | <Lachy> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cscript%3E%0Awindow.onload%3Dfunction%28%29%20%7B%0A%20%20document.removeChild%28document.firstChild%29%3B%0A%20%20document.appendChild%28document.createElementNS%28%22http%3A//www.w3.org/2000/svg%22%2C%20%22svg%22%29%29%3B%0A%20%20w%28document.documentElement%29%0A%7D%0A%3C/script%3E |
| 13:03 | <zcorpan_> | Lachy: w(document) says [HTMLDocument] in opera |
| 13:05 | <zcorpan_> | also when i try the same with an xml document. so we don't change the interface of the document in response to changes to the dom |
| 13:35 | <zcorpan_> | if the insertion mode is "after body" |
| 13:36 | <zcorpan_> | A character token that is one of one of U+0009 CHARACTER TABULATION, U+000A LINE FEED (LF), U+000B LINE TABULATION, U+000C FORM FEED (FF), or U+0020 SPACE |
| 13:36 | <zcorpan_> | Process the token as it would be processed if the insertion mode was "in body". |
| 13:36 | <zcorpan_> | would the character then be appended to the body element? |
| 13:37 | <zcorpan_> | since the current node is the body element |
| 13:38 | <zcorpan_> | e.g. "<body></body> </html>" is parsed as if it were "<body> </body></html>" |
| 13:43 | <zcorpan_> | correct? |
| 14:48 | <Whiskey_M> | 'lo |
| 14:50 | <Philip`> | SyntaxError: EOL while scanning single-quoted string |
| 15:24 | <zcorpan_> | hmm. wonder if, when getting innerHTML in html, an element is in the html namespace but has a prefix, the prefix should be dropped |
| 15:24 | <zcorpan_> | so that it can be parsed into the same element again with the html parser |
| 15:25 | <zcorpan_> | though innerHTML in html wasn't designed to handle such cases anyway |
| 15:26 | <met_> | http://www.infoq.com/news/2007/08/hdflash |
| 15:26 | <met_> | I think it's the same format Apple want for <video> in Safari |
| 15:27 | <Whiskey_M> | zcorpan: would that have the knock on effect that when in an XHTML namespace it will pull the innerXML ? |
| 15:27 | <zcorpan_> | Whiskey_M: i don't understand the question |
| 15:28 | <zcorpan_> | what is innerXML? |
| 15:29 | <Whiskey_M> | I think I may have my knickers / DOMs in a twist (between the .net, asp and JS document models and the different calls for each I'm not suprised though) |
| 15:33 | <zcorpan_> | i mean, if you have an element with the following properties: prefix is "x", localName is "input", namespaceURI is "http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml";, and it is part of an html document. what should that element's parent node's innerHTML attribute return on getting? |
| 15:33 | <zcorpan_> | per html5, it should return "<x:br>" |
| 15:33 | <zcorpan_> | er |
| 15:33 | <zcorpan_> | "<x:input>" |
| 15:34 | <zcorpan_> | which won't be parsed into an html "input" element when parsed again |
| 16:27 | <zcorpan_> | hmmm... offsetLeft |
| 17:05 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: weren't you going to rewrite "The |m| element" to make it more distinct from |strong| and |em|? couldn't it do with a note of the issue? |
| 17:11 | <zcorpan_> | and rename it to "mark" so that it doesn't sound like "em"? or drop it altogether? :) |
| 17:12 | <gsnedders> | zcorpan_: I'd keep it, as it has its uses (like marking text that needs to be updated :P) |
| 17:20 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: At the end of #attributes (Attributes common to |ins| and |del| elements), there is a "element's >". I assume this is a typo. |
| 17:32 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: send mail (about both) |
| 17:47 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Maybe you should specify who "you" is referring to when emailing five hundred people :-) |
| 17:47 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: hmm, just maybe. |
| 17:48 | <Hixie> | jesus, i spend time writing a tool for people and all i get from the htmlwg are complaints |
| 17:48 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: it is rather implied by the point of rewriting part of the spec as to referring to the editors |
| 17:48 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: you suck. |
| 17:48 | <Hixie> | what happened to people pulling their own weight |
| 17:49 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: people have got too fat to do so. |
| 17:49 | <Philip`> | Maybe that's what happens when you discourage people from saying "+1" or similarly non-constructive agreements - only people with (hopefully-)constructive criticism(/complaints) reply :-) |
| 17:50 | gsnedders | waits for someone to take that completely out of context and threaten him at saying the group is fat |
| 18:08 | <Hixie> | ok that guy telling me i should make the page work with his broken tool really pissed me off |
| 18:09 | <zcorpan_> | Hixie: take a deep breath... :) |
| 18:10 | <Hixie> | it's amazing to me how much the philosophies of the whatwg and the htmlwg (ignoring people who came from the whatwg) differ |
| 18:10 | <Hixie> | you guys (the people who first got involved through the whatwg) always answer "ooh, great! let's add more!", the htmlwg-only guys usually answer "that wasn't enough!" |
| 18:11 | <Hixie> | grr. bbl. |
| 18:12 | zcorpan_ | thinks he has sent <ol> feedback to whatwg before, but can't find it again |
| 23:29 | <jgraham> | Distinctly under tested, underoptimized, only html4 implemented (and with bugs, I'm sure): http://wordsandpictures.dyndns.org/table_inspector.html |
| 23:31 | <kingryan> | jgraham: error: http://wordsandpictures.dyndns.org/cgi-bin/tables/table_inspector.py?uri=http%3A%2F%2Ftheryanking.com%2Fmicroformats%2Fwebzine.html&scope=1&headers=1 |
| 23:31 | <jgraham> | That was quick :) |
| 23:31 | <kingryan> | first try :) |
| 23:52 | <zcorpan> | http://wordsandpictures.dyndns.org/cgi-bin/tables/table_inspector.py?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fsimon.html5.org%2Farticles%2Fmobile-results&scope=1&headers=1 hmm, the first row doesn't seem right |
