| 00:04 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: I'm not sure whether HTML4 expects th cells to have headers |
| 00:05 | <jgraham> | it doesn't make sense in lots of cases but I'm trying to do what it _says_ not what makes sense |
| 00:06 | jgraham | notes that there seems to be a bug in html5lib's etree treewalker which screws up the results for pages with multiple tables |
| 00:13 | Hixie | doesn't understand why he randomly has php5.cgi scripts running when he has no php on his site |
| 00:19 | <Hixie> | ohhhhh the whatwg forums are under my account |
| 00:19 | <Hixie> | that explains it |
| 00:56 | <webben_> | jgraham: I think it's pretty clear (when you read it carefully) that HTML4 does not expect th cells to have headers. The DTD notes say to use td when a cell is both data and header. |
| 00:56 | webben_ | thinks for a moment |
| 00:56 | <webben_> | actually, maybe not so clear |
| 00:56 | <webben_> | i guess you can have header headers that aren't data |
| 03:36 | <Lachy> | I wonder what the objection is to having any tool hosted on whatwg.org instead of w3.org http://www.w3.org/mid/46CB1C8B.7010208⊙RAU |
| 03:36 | <Lachy> | it just seems that some people will find the smallest and most irrelevant issue to complain about |
| 03:37 | <Philip`> | whatwg.org involves insufficient bureaucracy |
| 03:40 | <Lachy> | some people just need to realise that the barrier between the 2 groups is very artificial, since we're working toegether on the spec |
| 03:42 | Philip` | hosts stuff on the old box on the floor next to him, through a residential ADSL connection, on someone else's domain name, since he isn't really into either bureaucracy or uptime and prefers to just stick stuff wherever is convenient |
| 03:43 | <Philip`> | Even when system administrators are being cooperative and helpful, it seems much easier to be your own instead of trying to organise deployment with someone else |
| 03:44 | <Lachy> | yeah, I'd set up and run my own server, though my connection is not suitable enough for it - it's far too slow |
| 03:45 | <Philip`> | I get 50KB/s upload speed, which seems plenty since I only have to access it over the local network and never notice the bandwidth limit :-) |
| 03:46 | <Lachy> | what's you're download speed? |
| 03:48 | <Philip`> | Theoretically it's 1MB/sec maximum; in practice I get up to about 500KB/s and more commonly below 250KB/s |
| 03:49 | Philip` | prefers being at university where the network bandwidth is greater than his hard disk bandwidth :-) |
| 03:49 | <Lachy> | so that's an 8 megabit connection, which is the theoretical maximum for ADSL |
| 03:49 | <Lachy> | (not ADSL2 or 2+) |
| 03:49 | <Philip`> | Yep |
| 03:50 | <Philip`> | (I've not seen either of those being available anywhere around here) |
| 03:51 | <Lachy> | I'm stuck on a slow 1500/512kbps |
| 03:52 | <Lachy> | I was supposed to be upgraded to ADSL2 soon, but I've just noticed that they've delayed the phone exchange upgrade for another 3 months :-| |
| 03:55 | <Philip`> | If I remember correctly, I had something like 512/256 at first, then it got upgraded to 2048/512, then later to 8192/512 |
| 03:56 | <Philip`> | It's nice when all these free upgrades happen :-) |
| 03:56 | <Philip`> | (Well, "free" as in "still £30/month like it was before") |
| 03:56 | <Lachy> | at my previous place, last year, I was on 24000/1000, which was awesome! |
| 03:57 | <Lachy> | though, it practice I never got above about 8000 |
| 03:59 | <Philip`> | Oops, I should go to sleep |
| 04:01 | <karlUshi> | Lachy: outside of the controversy of "ownership", there is a general policy of W3C of keeping the stuff online. It's why we usually encourage WGs to collect every documents and information on the W3C web site. To not have a 404 in 5 years from now. |
| 04:02 | <Lachy> | yeah, the persistence policy is nice |
| 04:04 | <Lachy> | however, I just find it odd that complaints come as soon as anything is hosted on whatwg.org, but no-one has complained, for example, about these logs been on krijnhoetmer.nl |
| 04:04 | <karlUshi> | :))) I would complain but I don't have energy to do so ;) or let's say I prefer to put my energy elsewhere instead ;) |
| 04:04 | <karlUshi> | question of priorities |
| 04:55 | <Hixie> | yeah the persistence thing doesn't really apply here though since the whole point of the web app is to show what the status today is |
| 07:09 | <Hixie> | i wish roy would actually read the sniffing part of hte spec |
| 07:10 | <Hixie> | he seems to have this idea that the spec defines an ungodly sniffing algorithm |
| 07:10 | <Hixie> | when in fact it's barely enough to make browser vendors happy (all of them have complained about some part of it) |
| 07:10 | <Hixie> | (though ironically not the same part, which amuses me) |
| 07:21 | <Hixie> | I hope othermaciej and anne have fun with the task force |
| 07:21 | <othermaciej> | "fun" |
| 07:21 | <othermaciej> | that is totally what I'm expecting |
| 07:22 | <Hixie> | i've subscribed to the list already |
| 07:22 | <othermaciej> | there's a list already? |
| 07:22 | <Lachy> | what's the new list? |
| 07:23 | <Hixie> | i look forward to reading it avidly and not being allowed to post |
| 07:23 | <Hixie> | the list was created months ago |
| 07:23 | <Hixie> | public-forms.tg |
| 07:23 | <Hixie> | er |
| 07:23 | <Hixie> | public-forms-tf |
| 07:24 | <othermaciej> | I will be impressed if the task force can even reach a consensus decision on what its actual job is |
| 07:24 | <Hixie> | me too! |
| 07:24 | <Lachy> | it doesn't have subscribe/unsubscribe links next to it. Is anyone allowed to subscribe? |
| 07:24 | <Hixie> | it's a public list |
| 07:24 | <Hixie> | anyone can subscribe to any w3c public list |
| 07:24 | <Lachy> | ok |
| 07:25 | <Hixie> | from a productivity point of view i am really happy i'm not going to be allowed to be involved in those discussions |
| 07:25 | <Hixie> | from the point of view of my argumentative self, though, i'm jealous :-P |
| 07:26 | <Lachy> | are only the 6 TF members allowed to discuss on that list? |
| 07:26 | <Hixie> | i think it would be pointless to have officially appointed members if other people are allowed to take part in the discussion |
| 07:27 | <Hixie> | but i guess i'm just assuming we're not allowed to post |
| 07:27 | <Hixie> | seems like it would be rude to post |
| 07:27 | <Hixie> | for us |
| 07:29 | <Lachy> | oops, I sent my subscription request to public-forms-tf instead of public-forms-tf-request by mistake, though it still worked :-) |
| 07:29 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 07:33 | <Hixie> | http://www.w3.org/mid/46CB83B1.7040506⊙rca is an interesting mail to see cross-posted to public-html and wai-xtech |
| 07:33 | <Lachy> | Hixie, on the top issues list, could you add a vote count for the issues beside the names, so one doesn't have to open them up to see |
| 07:34 | <Lachy> | someone should advise him that he should be using the title attribute |
| 07:43 | <othermaciej> | karlUshi: should I find a new IRC channel where I am free to express my opinions honestly and have a sense of humor? |
| 07:44 | <Hixie> | Lachy: done |
| 07:44 | <Hixie> | whatwg is such a channel, if you feel otherwise please let me know by private IM and i will deal with the problem |
| 07:44 | <Lachy> | Hixie, thanks |
| 07:45 | <Lachy> | othermaciej, what did karlUshi complain about? |
| 07:45 | <Hixie> | lachy: (i'd already written all the backend code for that, just had to code in the client side) |
| 07:46 | <othermaciej> | Lachy: about my comments above circa 11:30 PM |
| 07:47 | <Lachy> | the "fun" and "that is totally what I'm expecting" comments? |
| 07:47 | <othermaciej> | and "I will be impressed if the task force can even reach a consensus decision on what its actual job is" |
| 07:50 | <Lachy> | Hixie, if I open http://www.whatwg.org/issues/listen directly in Firefox, it freezes and crashes. I wonder if that's a bug in FF or a problem with one of my extensions. |
| 07:51 | <karlUshi> | othermaciej: I have no issues with what you are saying for yourself. I have issues with WG loosing time on arguments about what you are saying. And as long as you are free to express yourself in public, you have to accept in return that people are free to express negative comments about your statements. :) that is the price of your free expression. It's not one way. |
| 07:52 | <othermaciej> | karlUshi: you are free to express anything you want, but knowing that you may forward any random thing I say here to the HTML Working Group chairs with a complaint, and without even talking to me about it first, makes this not a comfortable place to converse |
| 07:53 | <karlUshi> | it /is/ a public place. it /is/ logged online. it /is not/ a comfortable place by its nature. Wake up :) |
| 07:53 | <Lachy> | othermaciej, indeed. I've had karlUshi and DanC both do that with previous things I've said |
| 07:53 | karlUshi | is always amazed at the lack of maturity of people with regards to public expression and its consequences |
| 07:54 | <othermaciej> | karlUshi: well, my alternative is to find a place of private expression where you are not invited |
| 07:55 | <othermaciej> | karlUshi: but I would instead prefer to converse with relative comfort and in semi-obscurity, as is the norm on most public IRC channels |
| 07:55 | <Hixie> | Lachy: could be a problem accessing window.parent or something |
| 07:55 | <karlUshi> | semi-obscurity doesn't exist. |
| 07:55 | <karlUshi> | specifically when the logs are available |
| 07:56 | <karlUshi> | note that it is not about me. |
| 07:56 | <othermaciej> | it is the social norm of most IRC channels to not make a big deal of things said in the channel outside the channel (unless there is an unresolvable personal conflict) |
| 07:56 | <karlUshi> | it is about expressing one-self in a public environment which is recorded. Requesting free expression and not giving the right to other to react is... very surprising |
| 07:56 | <othermaciej> | while I can't force you to respect this social norm, I think it is rude not to do so |
| 07:57 | <Lachy> | karlUshi, others do have the right to react, but they should take it up with the person directly before involving anyone else |
| 07:57 | <othermaciej> | I'm not denying you any rights |
| 07:58 | <karlUshi> | Lachy: this specific channels is big wide open -> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ |
| 07:58 | <Lachy> | karlUshi, so? |
| 07:58 | karlUshi | remembers suddenly the discussion about old usenet suddenly archived by Google |
| 07:58 | <Lachy> | karlUshi, that doesn't mean that one should involve higher authorities as soon as someone takes offense by what was said, without first discussing it with the offender |
| 07:59 | <karlUshi> | people willing to fight for the semi-obscurity |
| 07:59 | <karlUshi> | Lachy: I didn't take offense |
| 07:59 | <karlUshi> | read my comment above |
| 07:59 | <karlUshi> | "I have issues with WG loosing time on arguments about what you are saying." |
| 08:00 | <Hixie> | could someone clarify exactly what it is that is being complained about? |
| 08:01 | <othermaciej> | by me or by Karl? |
| 08:01 | <Hixie> | both |
| 08:01 | <karlUshi> | me: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20070822#l-132 |
| 08:01 | <karlUshi> | maciej: that I sent the sentence to danc and chris and maciej to say that it was not appropriate |
| 08:02 | <Lachy> | karlUshi, I don't think it was appropriate either |
| 08:02 | <othermaciej> | I'm complaining that Karl quoted a snippet of our conversation and sent it to the HTML working Group chairs with his comment that he thinks it makes me unsuitable as a Forms Task Force participant |
| 08:03 | <karlUshi> | not what I said othermaciej |
| 08:03 | <othermaciej> | which, personally, I think is nonsense; being pessimistic about the outcome doesn't in any way mean that I won't participate in good faith |
| 08:03 | <karlUshi> | "I'm note sure that is a positive statement on your will to achieve work in this task force. I find it quite sad, personally. Either you participate to something because you think it will be fruitful, either you don't participate." |
| 08:04 | <Hixie> | ok. |
| 08:04 | <Hixie> | karlUshi: please resist forwarding conversations from this channel to the chairs without discussing it with the people you are quoting first. |
| 08:04 | <othermaciej> | I participate in web standards because it is part of my job to make them good and to make the process succeed, not because it necessarily fills my heart with joy |
| 08:04 | <karlUshi> | hixie: I'm willing to do that. |
| 08:05 | <Hixie> | thank you. |
| 08:05 | <Lachy> | karlUshi, thanks |
| 08:05 | <othermaciej> | thanks, karlUshi |
| 08:05 | <karlUshi> | the funny thing |
| 08:05 | <Lachy> | does that apply to #html-wg too? |
| 08:05 | <karlUshi> | is that at first I sent it in private specifically to make a recorded mess online |
| 08:05 | <karlUshi> | which maciej just did ;) |
| 08:05 | <Hixie> | #html-wg is danc's problem |
| 08:06 | <karlUshi> | to not make |
| 08:06 | <Hixie> | you know, public-html is amusing |
| 08:06 | <Whiskey_M> | 'lo |
| 08:06 | <othermaciej> | karlUshi: well, if you asked me about my comments here in the first place, then the public record would have our conversation, not just my out-of-context remarks |
| 08:07 | <Hixie> | many threads start with one message that i save because it has good feedback in it, followed by a lot of messages that really don't help much either way |
| 08:07 | <Hixie> | as an example: |
| 08:07 | <Hixie> | http://www.w3.org/mid/E99FD39C-9AE3-491C-B5EE-1405AF70A7A7⊙gc - useful feedback |
| 08:07 | <Hixie> | http://www.w3.org/mid/46CB1808.1010701⊙RAU - quibbling feedback |
| 08:07 | <Hixie> | http://www.w3.org/mid/op.txe6ftgzidj3kv@hp-a0a83fcd39d2 - feedback repeating the first point for the benefit of the second poster |
| 08:07 | <othermaciej> | karlUshi: I stand behind them, but I will note that I participate in good faith and make a strong effort in many endeavors despite pessimism about the outcome |
| 08:08 | <othermaciej> | the HTML Working Group itself is one such example |
| 08:08 | <othermaciej> | but I would like to be free to voice my cynicism once in a while |
| 08:11 | <Lachy> | hmm. I still haven't received the confirmation email to confirm my subscription to public-forms-tf was successful. |
| 08:11 | <Hixie> | maybe we're on a waiting list |
| 08:12 | <karlUshi> | I'm not the moderator |
| 08:13 | <othermaciej> | good night everyone |
| 08:16 | <Hixie> | nn |
| 08:17 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie - does your admonishment about forwarding links to comments in the public log for this channel apply only to forwarding such links to chairs, or to anybody? |
| 08:23 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: it was merely a request, to karl, that he not forward conversations from this channel to the chairs without discussing them with the people involved first |
| 08:24 | <Hixie> | it is naturally common courtesey to speak to someone before you quote them in any case |
| 08:26 | <MikeSmith> | I agree completely. |
| 08:26 | <MikeSmith> | It's just that this is first time I can every remember seeing you make any request from anybody on this channel about what their behavior should be. |
| 08:27 | <Hixie> | it's the first time i've had someone say they were starting to feel uncomfortable talking openly in this channel |
| 09:41 | <krijnh> | http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20070822#l-97 |
| 09:41 | <krijnh> | After this Karl has sent me a mail to ask if the irc logs could be moved to w3.org |
| 09:42 | <krijnh> | Good idea? :) |
| 09:42 | zcorpan | couldn't care less |
| 09:46 | <krijnh> | Me neither |
| 09:46 | <krijnh> | I'm not about to take my site down any time soon |
| 09:50 | <Hixie> | the w3c is certainly very welcome to host irc logs |
| 09:50 | <Hixie> | as is everyone else |
| 09:51 | <Hixie> | at least as far as this channel goes |
| 09:51 | <Hixie> | now if they want to argue that they don't want you logging their network's channels, that's between them and you on their network :-) |
| 09:51 | <krijnh> | Of course |
| 09:52 | <krijnh> | But they could just let me know, if they don't want me to do that :) |
| 09:59 | <zcorpan> | ok. <object>. time for me to create tests on that i think |
| 09:59 | <krijnh> | Didn't Robert Burns make those already? :) |
| 10:00 | <zcorpan> | they weren't tests |
| 10:00 | <Lachy> | his tests weren't good |
| 10:00 | <krijnh> | I'm running almost 1337 mails behind, so I wouldn't know :( |
| 10:00 | <zcorpan> | 1337 :) |
| 10:00 | <krijnh> | 1332 tbe :) |
| 10:53 | <Lachy> | I'm surprised by how many people have objected to "Solve Real Problems" |
| 11:23 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20070821#l-666 |
| 12:32 | <zcorpan> | hmm, why does http://validator.nu/ give me the About page? |
| 12:49 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: "Whenever the data attribute changes" -- does this also apply when the data attribute is removed? |
| 12:49 | <zcorpan> | on <object> |
| 12:50 | <zcorpan> | http://simon.html5.org/test/html/semantics/object/dynamic/001.htm |
| 14:53 | <Lachy> | what does this mean from Karl against Well-Defined Behaviour: "Dangerous. Typical example the search form with the magnifier of Safari, which led people to create invalid markup." http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/dprv/results#xwdb |
| 14:54 | <Lachy> | how can one blame the search form for the invalid markup on the web? |
| 14:56 | <Lachy> | I don't understand Sander's response either: "Given that the last sentence lists specific exceptions, this Design Principle appears to close the door for a UA to for instance render tables with fixed thead and tfoot and scrollable tbody; respect Content-Type; display equivalents side by side; not support javascript; etc." |
| 14:57 | <zcorpan> | i thought karl was in favor of well-defined behavior: http://www.w3.org/QA/2007/07/why-html-5-matters.html |
| 14:58 | <Lachy> | well, they're the only 2 that disagreed, and since their responses don't make sense, they don't really count. |
| 15:05 | <Philip`> | It seems unfair to say they don't count - it's more useful to say that they don't make sense and should clarify their position |
| 15:06 | <Lachy> | oh, I just meant for my purposes. I'm going through the entire results, looking for why people do and don't agree, in order to write my own responses |
| 15:07 | <Philip`> | Ah, okay |
| 15:31 | <zcorpan> | http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=66#400 -- spam in sig? |
| 15:33 | <hasather> | zcorpan: yes |
| 15:36 | <zcorpan> | user now-or-never begone |
| 16:03 | <aja> | did conformance checker move, or just temporarily unavailable? |
| 16:04 | <zcorpan> | aja: i would guess a mistake on hsivonen's part; you could email him and ask |
| 16:05 | aja | was hoping to catch him here |
| 16:06 | <Philip`> | The site was offline yesterday for maintenance (at least I think that's what it said), so it looks like some glitch when it came back up |
| 16:07 | <aja> | Philip`: saw that yesterday |
| 16:08 | aja | doesn't speak any Nordic languages, either :) |
| 16:08 | Philip` | wonders how hard it is to run a mirror of the validator |
| 23:00 | <KevinMarks> | just found a browser layout oddity that seems HTML5ish |
| 23:01 | <KevinMarks> | http://meganmcardle.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/08/did_911_ensure_republican_hege.php has an invalid blockquote p nesting, that behaves differently in firefox in the feed compared to the page |
| 23:34 | Philip` | watches Googlebot and Yahoo! Slurp race through the static HTML issues list |
| 23:34 | <Philip`> | They're currently neck and neck, each having found 4 out of 1536 emails |
| 23:35 | <takkaria> | I'd never have thought that was a spectator sport |
| 23:35 | <Philip`> | Actually, they each found exactly the same four messages |
| 23:35 | <Philip`> | (Maybe they're just following links from the IRC logs?) |