| 00:24 | <Hixie> | jgraham: there are examples of tables without headers on my most recent blog entry |
| 00:24 | <Hixie> | also, i imagine the spec might have some |
| 00:24 | <Hixie> | though i'm not sure |
| 00:53 | <Philip`> | Opera parses <section><p>A</section><section><p>B</section> annoyingly |
| 00:53 | <Philip`> | html5lib parses it even more annoyingly |
| 00:54 | <Hixie> | oh? |
| 00:54 | <Hixie> | indeed |
| 00:54 | <Philip`> | parsetree.validator.nu parses it nicely |
| 00:55 | <Philip`> | html5lib bug? |
| 00:55 | <Philip`> | Oh, no |
| 00:55 | <Hixie> | i think parsetree.validator.nu is buggy, technically |
| 00:56 | <Philip`> | It's intentionally undefined behaviour in html5lib |
| 00:56 | <Philip`> | >>> print html5lib.HTMLParser().parse('<section><p>a</section><section><p>b</section>').printTree() |
| 00:56 | <Philip`> | Warning: Undefined behaviour for end tag sectionWarning: Undefined behaviour for end tag section#document |
| 00:57 | <kingryan> | Philip`: does it give: |
| 00:57 | <kingryan> | <html><head></head><body><section><p>a<section></section></p><p>b |
| 00:57 | <kingryan> | </p></section></body></html> |
| 00:57 | <kingryan> | ? |
| 00:57 | Philip` | just adds </p>s to his code |
| 00:58 | <Philip`> | kingryan: It does |
| 00:58 | <kingryan> | ok, that's what the ruby port of html5lib gives |
| 10:00 | <hsivonen> | "parsetree.validator.nu is buggy, technically" ?? |
| 10:00 | <hsivonen> | in what way? |
| 10:05 | <hsivonen> | source hilite for errors that fire on the tree construction layer should be much better now |
| 10:08 | <a-ja> | henri, have a dialog test case you can send thru it? |
| 10:18 | <a-ja> | hsivonen: henri, anyone? have a working dialog test case you can send thru conformance checker? mine's not working for some reason |
| 10:19 | <hsivonen> | a-ja: hmm. I think that part of the conformance checker has not been revised in a while |
| 10:20 | <hsivonen> | that is, it is older than the part of spec about dialog |
| 10:20 | <hsivonen> | will fix in due course, of course |
| 10:20 | <a-ja> | i can't seemt to get it to like dialog anywhere |
| 10:21 | <hsivonen> | yeah |
| 10:21 | <jgraham> | Hixie: Arguably most of those tables would benefit from some headers with display:none. In fact, arguably cells like the #bits could be considered header cells for the field below, although I guess that might make the user experience worse in a screenreader |
| 10:21 | <jgraham> | since the tables are so small |
| 10:22 | <a-ja> | fwiw....if i change it to dl, i don't think it chokes on paragraphs in a dd like it should either |
| 10:25 | <hsivonen> | a-ja: when you have subtree rooted at an unknown element, Jing spews a lot of garbage about everything in the subtree. I need to suppress that in due course. |
| 10:26 | <a-ja> | unknown? tried right under body, in a div, in an article.....nada |
| 10:26 | <hsivonen> | a-ja: dialog is unknown for now |
| 10:26 | <a-ja> | oh....no wonder :) |
| 10:27 | <a-ja> | btw...defended your thesis/project yet? |
| 10:27 | <hsivonen> | a-ja: I know it sucks that the schema layer is out of date. sorry. but these other guys keep asking for front end features like textarea and file upload. :-) |
| 10:28 | <jgraham> | There is a table in the spec representing a matrix which, in the absence of MathML seems like a fair enough use case for a table with no headers |
| 10:28 | <hsivonen> | a-ja: the thesis was accepted earlier this year |
| 10:28 | <hsivonen> | a-ja: I graduated on May 21 |
| 10:28 | <a-ja> | congrats!! |
| 10:28 | <hsivonen> | thanks |
| 10:29 | <a-ja> | hsivonen: i like the recent f/e work...time well spent |
| 10:30 | <hsivonen> | thanks |
| 10:31 | a-ja | won't even mention an addon I'd like <g> |
| 10:33 | hsivonen | is now curious |
| 10:33 | a-ja | imagines it's probably already in the works |
| 10:34 | <a-ja> | being able to check local pages |
| 10:34 | <hsivonen> | a-ja: as in file upload field? |
| 10:34 | a-ja | wasn't gonnamention it til someone dragged it outta me |
| 10:34 | <hsivonen> | a-ja: if you are willing to run a small command-line client, you already can: http://about.validator.nu/html5check.py |
| 10:35 | <hsivonen> | a-ja: it uploads to validator.nu |
| 10:35 | <hsivonen> | a-ja: if you need it to be confidential, you could run your own copy of the back end on localhost |
| 10:36 | <hsivonen> | JVM startup time sucks, so it is a good idea to keep the Java process running instead of making a Java-base command-line tool |
| 10:36 | <hsivonen> | (except with gcj, which would be hard) |
| 10:37 | <a-ja> | snagged it...may give it a shot later on. snooze time soon |
| 10:37 | <a-ja> | tks |
| 10:43 | <hsivonen> | input type='file' is unsuccessful (i.e. absent from the data set) if there's no file selected, right? |
| 11:37 | <mpt> | http://notafront.org/~agit/compilation/imgpages/image401.html |
| 11:53 | <jruderman> | http://notafront.org/~agit/compilation/imgpages/image393.html |
| 16:25 | <annevk> | collegue pointed this out: http://www.unicode.org/mail-arch/unicode-ml/y2007-m09/0229.html (unicode-ml, unicode) |
| 16:31 | <gsnedders> | annevk: needs auth to view |
| 16:31 | <annevk> | (username, password) does that help? |
| 16:31 | <gsnedders> | I tried that |
| 16:32 | <gsnedders> | But now looking again, it's -ml not -mi |
| 16:32 | <gsnedders> | Now it works :) |
| 16:38 | <virtuelv> | heh, http://wafful.org/~takesako/html20hacks/browser-detect3.html |
| 16:38 | <virtuelv> | there's some error handling to be handled |
| 16:39 | <annevk> | ouch |
| 16:40 | <gsnedders> | how do we define error handling without breaking backwards compat? :P |
| 16:41 | <virtuelv> | none of my text editors can even open that html document properly |
| 16:47 | <annevk> | opening it in a hexeditor doesn't make me much wiser :) |
| 16:54 | <zcorpan> | what's appropriate alt text for that <img>? :) |
| 16:56 | <gsnedders> | wow. IIS's HTTP parsing is so illogical. No other HTTP implementation has any parser so illogical, as far as I can see. |
| 17:14 | <zcorpan> | http://parsetree.validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwafful.org%2F%7Etakesako%2Fhtml20hacks%2Fbrowser-detect3.html&submit=Print+Tree |
| 17:15 | <zcorpan> | seems that opera is compliant and the others aren't ;) |
| 17:16 | <zcorpan> | so in the future when other browsers get compliant, they will be sniffed as being opera |
| 17:38 | <zcorpan> | <lede>, eh? what's wrong with <b>? :) |
| 17:39 | <Dashiva> | <h2 style="font-size: normal; text-align: left;"> |
| 17:40 | <zcorpan> | hmm, heading doesn't seem like a good fit |
| 17:40 | <zcorpan> | you'd also want display:run-in in that case |
| 17:41 | <virtuelv> | annevk: that wafful org thing has evil null bytes in it |
| 17:45 | <hober> | If the lede is the most important sentence in the article, and <strong> increases its contents' importance, why not use <strong> for marking up ledes? |
| 17:47 | <zcorpan> | ok; s/<b>/<strong>/ |
| 17:47 | <Dashiva> | hober: The idea is to have something with <stronger> semantics than just 'important' :) |
| 17:48 | <hober> | Dashiva: sure, and I think I'm pretty supportive of such an element, actually. I was just thinking that <strong> is a better semantic match than <b> |
| 17:48 | <Dashiva> | point |
| 17:49 | <zcorpan> | <b> and <strong> are equivalent in my brain |
| 17:58 | gsnedders | slaps zcorpan |
| 18:00 | <annevk> | virtuelv, that explains view source in Opera and save as in Opera... |
| 18:01 | <annevk> | hober, I agree that <lede> is not needed and that <strong> is sufficient |
| 18:03 | <virtuelv> | annevk: it breaks virtually every editor I open it in |
| 18:04 | <virtuelv> | gedit: The entire file is garbled |
| 18:05 | <annevk> | komodo does like Opera (everything after first null byte is lost) |
| 18:05 | <virtuelv> | yes |
| 18:05 | <virtuelv> | which is weird, given that scite (which is also based off scintilla) displays them as 'NUL' |
| 18:07 | <zcorpan> | notepad2 insists that the file is utf-16 |
| 18:07 | <annevk> | ah, scite is useful |
| 18:08 | <annevk> | it also shows that there's a FF between src and = for the Opera image |
| 18:24 | <gsnedders> | why on earth would Safari scroll down a page on load without any <script> whatsoever!? |
| 18:25 | <annevk> | you want #webkit |
| 18:27 | gsnedders | needs to write some sort of test case first, though, really |
| 20:07 | <gsnedders> | how do WF2-supporting browsers currently render @type=number? |
| 20:09 | <annevk> | test in Opera? |
| 20:10 | <Dashiva> | Opera has up-and-down arrows at the right side |
| 20:10 | <Dashiva> | I never use them, though... |
| 21:57 | <hsivonen> | http://about.validator.nu/file-temp/ |
| 21:58 | <hsivonen> | http://about.validator.nu/textarea-temp/ |
| 21:58 | <Hixie> | textarea one should probably not have the "be lax" checkbox |
| 21:59 | <hsivonen> | yeah |
| 21:59 | <hsivonen> | those aren't intended as UI mockups |
| 21:59 | <hsivonen> | just as something that allows the back end to be used before I fix the UI |
| 21:59 | <Hixie> | aah |
| 22:00 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: I may start sending one or two emails about HTTP parsing to whatwg over the next couple of days, FYI |
| 22:00 | <Hixie> | HTTP parsing is probably more usefully sent to the HTTPWG |
| 22:01 | <Hixie> | not sure what i'd do with http feedback on the whatwg list |
| 22:01 | <Hixie> | though feel free to send e-mails asking for feedback |
| 22:01 | <Hixie> | if that's what you mean |
| 22:01 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: yeah, just asking for feedback |
| 22:01 | <Hixie> | cool |
| 22:01 | <gsnedders> | one or two more general comments |
| 22:02 | annevk | is interested in HTTP parsing |
| 22:02 | <gsnedders> | most of it will all be done privately as it is mainly specific questions for different implementers |
| 22:02 | <gsnedders> | annevk: me too! |
| 22:02 | <gsnedders> | though the fact I'm writing a spec on it might be a slight clue :P |
| 22:02 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: do you know if the list strips reply-to headers? |
| 22:02 | <annevk> | HTTP5? |
| 22:03 | <gsnedders> | annevk: no, just http parsing |
| 22:03 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: no idea off hand |
| 22:03 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: is it worthwhile sending something with a reply-to: me header? |
| 22:03 | <gsnedders> | or would you rather replies just went to the list? |
| 22:03 | <Hixie> | no opinion |
| 22:03 | <Hixie> | either is fine |
| 22:08 | <othermaciej_> | we had an http parsing question come up just today on #webkit |
| 22:08 | <othermaciej_> | (or was it last night?) |
| 22:08 | <othermaciej_> | question was what to do in case of multiple Content-Type headers |
| 22:09 | <othermaciej> | http spec does not say how to handle multiple instances of headers that do not allow multiple instances |
| 22:09 | <Hixie> | it leaves error handling undefined? shocking |
| 22:11 | <annevk> | what happens with a stream with multiple Content-Type headers for instance? lots of specs are defined assuming a single such header |
| 22:12 | <hober> | Wasn't someone working on a real-world HTTP header parsing spec? |
| 22:12 | <annevk> | see above |
| 22:13 | <hober> | Ahh. I was going to suggest that gsnedders talk to whomever it was. :) |
| 22:26 | <Philip`> | hober: It would be a sign of madness if he did :-) |
| 22:26 | <hober> | indeed. |
| 22:44 | <Hixie> | http://www.w3.org/mid/C327DDAE.6B8F%25jason.cranfordteague⊙cac is beautiful |
| 22:47 | <jruderman> | are any of those urls public? |
| 22:47 | <gavin_> | no |
| 22:48 | <Hixie> | /tag/ is i think |
| 22:48 | <Hixie> | it was also sent to public-html |
| 22:48 | <annevk> | nope |
| 22:48 | <Hixie> | though that doesn't seem to be on that list |
| 22:48 | <annevk> | just www-tag |
| 22:48 | <Hixie> | ah ok |
| 22:48 | <Hixie> | didn't know there were two |
| 22:49 | <gavin_> | I didn't get it on public-html |
| 22:49 | <Hixie> | hm, i guess not |
| 22:49 | <Hixie> | odd |
| 22:49 | <Hixie> | the e-mail was two words long |
| 22:50 | <Hixie> | it just said "Thanks Susan." |
| 22:50 | <annevk> | if there's a publicly archived version it redirects you to that one automatically or lists all publicly arhived messages (if there are multiple) |
| 22:51 | <Hixie> | it was sent to a bunch of public lists |
| 22:51 | <Hixie> | all the same ones that susan originally e-mailed, in fact |
| 22:51 | <Hixie> | i don't know why it didn't reach any of them |
| 22:51 | <Hixie> | that's weird |
| 22:51 | <annevk> | there's also http://www.w3.org/mid/bb69c1de0709080630x4736dcbbg85c65fd5a7c4c82⊙mgc |
| 22:51 | <Hixie> | nice |
| 22:51 | <hober> | What's the w3c-html-wg list? |
| 22:51 | <Hixie> | hober: the old htmlwg list |
| 22:52 | <Hixie> | defunct now |
| 22:52 | <hober> | ahh |
| 22:52 | Hixie | adds "tag" to his portal page |
| 22:52 | <Dashiva> | That's a lot of lists... |
| 22:52 | <Hixie> | so anyone noticed how html4all has had no traffic for days? |
| 22:53 | <annevk> | maybe they're awaiting replies from the director of the W3C |
| 22:53 | <Philip`> | Given how some of those "Introduction" emails ended up in 2005Sep archives, since that was the date of the previously most recent message, it looks rather like indiscriminate spam |
| 22:53 | <Hixie> | annevk: ? |
| 22:53 | <annevk> | (I noticed too, as I subscribed to the html4all list to easier track the e-mails.) |
| 22:54 | <annevk> | oh, maybe it was directed to DanC and cwilso only |
| 22:54 | <Dashiva> | How many formal objections are we up to now? |
| 22:54 | <annevk> | ah, it was: http://html4all.org/pipermail/list_html4all.org/2007-September/000428.html |
| 22:55 | <annevk> | actually, there was a reply to that from DanC as well which has been removed from the html4all archives |
| 22:55 | <Hixie> | danc replied to that |
| 22:55 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 22:55 | <Philip`> | http://html4all.org/wiki/index.php?title=Wiki/index.php&curid=1443&diff=1895&oldid=1840 - I'm surprised it took that long for them to get the first wikispam |
| 22:56 | <annevk> | hmm, the wiki seems quite active |
| 22:56 | <annevk> | maybe all traffic moved to the private list? :( |
| 22:56 | <annevk> | oh well |
| 22:58 | <hober> | for log readers, danc's reply to that is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Sep/0111.html |
| 22:59 | <Hixie> | no, there was another one too |
| 22:59 | <Hixie> | direct to JohnF |
| 22:59 | <Hixie> | John then forwarded it to the archives, and it was then removed |
| 22:59 | <hober> | ahh. |
| 23:00 | hober | finds it hard to keep up with all of the cabal machinations :) |
| 23:00 | <Hixie> | the part that was forwarded basically wished John luck in finding another editor, because (DanC said) he had tried but not found any willing editors |
| 23:00 | <annevk> | yup |
| 23:00 | <Hixie> | i have to say, if we do find any willing editors, there are a number of specs that need work in e.g. webapi |
| 23:00 | annevk | recalls reading that too |
| 23:00 | <Hixie> | i've had to fold several webapi things into the html5 spec due to lack of editors |
| 23:00 | <Hixie> | which i'd like to spin out again |
| 23:01 | <Hixie> | (if we can find a way to separate them out, anyway) |
| 23:01 | <annevk> | window, dom5 core, es bindings... |
| 23:01 | <Hixie> | dom5 core is probably the biggest right now, yeah |
| 23:01 | <Hixie> | b4es is being done by heycam |
| 23:01 | <Hixie> | though that has somewhat stalled, it seems |
| 23:01 | <Dashiva> | heycam? |
| 23:01 | <annevk> | maybe need dom5 events too |
| 23:02 | <Hixie> | isn't bjoern doing events? |
| 23:02 | <Hixie> | i guess that's stalled too |
| 23:02 | <annevk> | It seems bjoern is doing editing in the very literal sense |
| 23:02 | <Hixie> | ? |
| 23:02 | <othermaciej> | finding willing and qualified editors would be great |
| 23:02 | <annevk> | People write text and then he folds it into the specification |
| 23:02 | <Hixie> | aah |
| 23:02 | <Hixie> | ok so a new author for dom3/5 events would be useful too |
| 23:02 | <othermaciej> | and yes, web api would be a good place to help html |
| 23:03 | <othermaciej> | css needs help too but their issues go deeper than just availability of editors |
| 23:04 | <Dashiva> | How's their blog doing? :) |
| 23:04 | annevk | needs some help with the CSSOM at some point |
| 23:04 | <Hixie> | dashiva: Cameron McCormack |
| 23:05 | <Hixie> | (sorry, took me a while to find his full name) |
| 23:05 | <annevk> | Dashiva, that's updated quite frequently |
| 23:14 | <gsnedders> | gsnedders: about the HTTP parsing spec… |
| 23:14 | <gsnedders> | hober, Philip` ^^ |
| 23:14 | <gsnedders> | :) |
| 23:47 | Hixie | regens the spec |
| 23:47 | <Hixie> | ok the update algorithm is written up if anyone cares |
| 23:48 | <Hixie> | (around http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#offline ) |
| 23:58 | othermaciej | will need to read that |
| 23:59 | othermaciej | also needs to read the ES4 draft |
| 23:59 | <Hixie> | there's a bunch of holes in the overall offline stuff, but the update algorithm is up |
| 23:59 | <Hixie> | oh, is there an ES4 draft out? |
| 23:59 | <othermaciej> | not publicly I don't think; I don't have a copy yet myself either |
| 23:59 | <Hixie> | ah ok |