| 11:58 | <OmegaJunior> | :) |
| 12:56 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=114 |
| 12:57 | <zcorpan> | <audio>'s transparent content model and <figure>'s content model don't seem to work together |
| 12:59 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: in spec or in my impl? |
| 12:59 | <zcorpan> | in the spec |
| 12:59 | <hsivonen> | so does validator.nu have a bug? |
| 12:59 | <zcorpan> | not sure |
| 13:00 | <OmegaJunior> | But audio is embedded content, which is allowed in figure |
| 13:00 | <zcorpan> | yes, however <audio> has a transparent content model |
| 13:00 | <hsivonen> | OmegaJunior: Have you checked the latest spec on <audio>? you should do the format fallback using <source> instead of nested <audio> |
| 13:01 | <OmegaJunior> | Semi-transparent, does that make a difference? |
| 13:01 | <zcorpan> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-documents0.html#transparent0 |
| 13:02 | hsivonen | isn't a fan of transparent content models |
| 13:02 | <OmegaJunior> | format fallback instead of nested? The latest spec says to nest source element inside audio element |
| 13:03 | <OmegaJunior> | zcorpan, that part on transparent content model makes my implementation correct and the validator wrong. |
| 13:04 | <zcorpan> | <figure><legend></legend><audio src=x>TEST</audio></figure> isn't conforming because <figure><legend></legend>TEST</figure> isn't |
| 13:04 | <OmegaJunior> | I must say, it's highly confusing. |
| 13:04 | <hsivonen> | OmegaJunior: you have two nested <audio> elements |
| 13:04 | <hsivonen> | I'm reviewing the schema for bugs |
| 13:04 | <zcorpan> | it seems to me that this is a bug in the spec |
| 13:04 | <OmegaJunior> | Yes, hsivonen, I do now... I started out with one audio element and two nested sources |
| 13:05 | <OmegaJunior> | I'll change that, but it'll have the same effect. |
| 13:05 | <hsivonen> | IIRC, this is a spec bug |
| 13:05 | <hsivonen> | I think I've mentioned this to Hixie |
| 13:07 | <hsivonen> | OmegaJunior: figure wants an embedded content element |
| 13:07 | <hsivonen> | OmegaJunior: and <audio> is transparent |
| 13:07 | <OmegaJunior> | Semi-transparent? |
| 13:07 | <hsivonen> | OmegaJunior: so the result is that the audio element wants an embedded child too |
| 13:07 | <hsivonen> | OmegaJunior: semi is about <source> |
| 13:08 | <OmegaJunior> | OK |
| 13:08 | <hsivonen> | so Validator.nu is unhelpful here, but it's really a spec issue |
| 13:08 | <OmegaJunior> | So removing the figure element should solve that problem |
| 13:08 | <hsivonen> | OmegaJunior: yes |
| 13:09 | <hsivonen> | This should probably be fixed by allowing text blocks as figures |
| 13:10 | <OmegaJunior> | Or maybe let media elements be real embed content? |
| 13:10 | <zcorpan> | they are embedded content |
| 13:10 | <OmegaJunior> | Spec says: |
| 13:10 | <OmegaJunior> | Contexts in which this element may be used: |
| 13:10 | <OmegaJunior> | As the only embedded content child of a figure element. |
| 13:10 | <OmegaJunior> | So use in figure element should be according to spec |
| 13:11 | <OmegaJunior> | thus spec contradicts self |
| 13:11 | <zcorpan> | OmegaJunior: indeed, as we said it's a bug in the spec :) |
| 13:11 | <OmegaJunior> | OK :) |
| 13:11 | <OmegaJunior> | Thanks! |
| 13:11 | <zcorpan> | np |
| 13:12 | <hsivonen> | OmegaJunior: use of <audio> in <figure> is OK. but the transparent content model sucks in that case, because then the content of <audio> needs to be embedded content, too |
| 13:13 | <OmegaJunior> | So basically using block-level elements inside an audio element is impossible? |
| 13:13 | <OmegaJunior> | As fallback content? |
| 13:14 | <zcorpan> | yes (since the other context where <audio> is allowed is where strictly inline-level content is allowed) |
| 13:15 | <hsivonen> | OmegaJunior: impossible per current spec when audio occurs as the child of figure |
| 13:15 | <hsivonen> | oh, and what zcorpan said |
| 13:16 | <OmegaJunior> | That's going to provide a lot of feedback... |
| 13:16 | <OmegaJunior> | I can't use block- nor inline-level elements anywhere inside an audio element, according to the validator. |
| 13:17 | <OmegaJunior> | Basically this renders fallback content useless, as you can't provide one or more hyperlinks as alternatives to the content. |
| 13:18 | <hsivonen> | OmegaJunior: http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-April/010790.html |
| 13:19 | <hsivonen> | interestingly, Google didn't find that message with relevant keywords |
| 13:19 | <OmegaJunior> | Did you get an answer to that question? |
| 13:22 | <OmegaJunior> | That required descendant that I'm missing... that might be the embedded content you ask about in your question of last April. |
| 13:22 | <zcorpan> | OmegaJunior: it's probably on the list of open issues |
| 13:23 | <hsivonen> | OmegaJunior: I thought Hixie acknowledged it, but I can't find anything to that effect in the logs |
| 13:23 | <hsivonen> | OmegaJunior: yes. my guess is that the error goes away if you put an <img> or <embed> there... |
| 13:24 | <OmegaJunior> | I hope this confusion will be edited out before this thing goes live... say, in the next 14 years. |
| 13:24 | <hsivonen> | OmegaJunior: I hope so, too. |
| 13:25 | <hsivonen> | OmegaJunior: occasionally I take matters into my own hands if the spec says something silly, but in this case I'm going with the letter of the spec |
| 13:26 | <zcorpan> | the email is in the graphics-video folder in http://www.whatwg.org/issues/ |
| 13:26 | <hsivonen> | OmegaJunior: <font> and style='' would be examples of me overriding the spec optimistically. |
| 13:26 | <OmegaJunior> | OK :) |
| 13:33 | <OmegaJunior> | Well, I finally found something that makes the validator happy |
| 13:33 | <OmegaJunior> | I did enter an embed element into the audio element |
| 13:34 | <OmegaJunior> | And moved my fallback content (what I consider fallback) outside of the figure |
| 13:34 | <OmegaJunior> | But the embed element itself can't have fallback content... |
| 13:35 | <OmegaJunior> | So it's either one of the sources, or an embed, or nothing. |
| 13:35 | <zcorpan> | i would suggest to ignore any error messages regarding <figure><audio> |
| 13:36 | <OmegaJunior> | That works too... |
| 13:37 | <zcorpan> | but links would probably be useful also for people with html5 browsers, so it makes sense to place the links outside the <audio> |
| 13:38 | <OmegaJunior> | Though that is true, it also makes sense to put them inside the element as fallback content. |
| 13:38 | <zcorpan> | yeah, if you want to hide the links from people with html5 browsers |
| 13:39 | <hsivonen> | (fallback is for legacy browsers--not for HTML5 browsers) |
| 13:39 | <hsivonen> | that is, fallback isn't for accessibility or codec fallback |
| 13:40 | <OmegaJunior> | Really? |
| 13:40 | <OmegaJunior> | That's different from what I expected. |
| 13:40 | <zcorpan> | it's like the contents of <iframe> |
| 13:41 | <zcorpan> | browsers that don't support <iframe> will use the contents |
| 13:41 | <OmegaJunior> | Well... I expect Opera to show the fallback content of an iframe if I tell it not to display iframes... |
| 13:41 | <zcorpan> | yes, then you disable support for iframes |
| 13:42 | <OmegaJunior> | And I expect to be able to enter a hyperlink as fallback content, so visitors will be able to browse to the uri themselves. |
| 13:42 | <OmegaJunior> | Those with iframe support don't need that link... |
| 13:42 | <zcorpan> | but you don't get the contents of iframes if the iframe references a 404 or something that is not supported |
| 13:42 | <zcorpan> | exactly |
| 13:42 | <OmegaJunior> | True |
| 13:42 | <zcorpan> | <audio> is the same |
| 13:43 | <OmegaJunior> | But then having only an embed element as fallback of content doesn't cover all bases, does it? |
| 13:43 | <zcorpan> | i don't understand the question |
| 13:45 | <OmegaJunior> | Well, suppose a user agent doesn't know html 5: it won't understand the audio element. Suppose it adheres only to the W3 recommendations of html and doesn't know the embed element either... then the user sees nothing. |
| 13:45 | <zcorpan> | right |
| 13:45 | <OmegaJunior> | Allowing a simple text as fallback content would at least indicate that something should be present. |
| 13:46 | <zcorpan> | yes |
| 13:46 | <OmegaJunior> | Lest we require the user to study the page source... |
| 13:47 | <OmegaJunior> | Thanks for the explanations! I'm heading off. |
| 13:47 | <zcorpan> | cya |
| 15:50 | <hsivonen> | aaronlev: is this thread on your radar: http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-October/012642.html |
| 15:50 | <aaronlev> | hsivonen: barely |
| 15:51 | <aaronlev> | the expert on closed captioning technologies is Larry Goldberg from WGBH |
| 15:51 | <aaronlev> | they invented closed captioning and are on top of technical issues |
| 15:51 | <aaronlev> | i think we should get them into this conversation |
| 22:24 | Hixie | just replied to the highest-voted e-mail |