| 02:37 | <Hixie> | so anyone sent any last call feedback on the role attribute spec? |
| 02:37 | <Hixie> | (not zcorpan's, the "official" one) |
| 03:19 | <karlUshi> | Hixie: I will if I find time :/ |
| 03:23 | <Hixie> | i was going to but i couldn't find anything in there that said what browsers should do |
| 03:23 | <Hixie> | so it seemed harmless |
| 03:23 | <Hixie> | (i mean, netscape 2.0 is a compliant role module implementation as far as i can tell) |
| 03:43 | <Hixie> | in fact |
| 03:43 | <Hixie> | insofar as i can tell |
| 03:43 | <Hixie> | it is literally true that my desk is a compliant XHTML Role Attribute Module implementation |
| 03:44 | <Hixie> | (with apologies to dbaron) |
| 05:00 | <Hixie> | well, at this rate i might even hit my target for this quarter! |
| 05:06 | <Hixie> | hm, it strikes me that the offline application cache fallback concept isn't useful for doing fallback of anything but HTML or XML pages |
| 05:06 | <Hixie> | e.g. you can't usefully do fallback of CSS pages |
| 05:07 | <Hixie> | maybe we should have fallback pages be JS pages that execute when fetched or something |
| 05:43 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: good standard(s?) compliant desk you have there :) |
| 06:01 | <Hixie> | i think my statement says more about "role" than about my desk |
| 06:02 | <karlUshi> | or about you more than the desk and the role |
| 06:03 | <Hixie> | ? |
| 06:04 | <Hixie> | i'm certainly eager to learn of anything that makes my statement incorrect |
| 06:04 | <Hixie> | (note that, as noted earlier, my comment was actually a reference to an infamous statement that dbaron made many years ago before a plenary meeting in boston) |
| 06:05 | <dbaron> | Though I did have to draw quotation marks on the sides of my desk to make that statement true, unfortunately. |
| 06:05 | <Hixie> | indeed |
| 06:06 | <karlUshi> | which might make the table more beautiful, more useful, more artistic, funnier, useless, depending on the context and the eyes of the beholder. |
| 06:07 | <jruderman> | what was the context of dbaron doing that? was there a spec that his desk followed just by having quotation marks? |
| 06:08 | <dbaron> | (Was I the one who said that? I wasn't even sure who said it.) |
| 06:08 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 06:08 | Hixie | wonders what karl is talking about |
| 06:08 | <dbaron> | jruderman, HTML4 |
| 06:08 | <Hixie> | yeah, you said it when we passed through your dorm room iirc |
| 06:08 | karlUshi | doesn't expect hixie to understand people down there :) |
| 06:09 | <jruderman> | dbaron: your desk was a compliant HTML4 UA? what were the quotes for? |
| 06:09 | <dbaron> | jruderman, conformant HTML4 UAs MUST render quotes around the contents of the Q element |
| 06:10 | <jruderman> | oh, and that was the only thing in the spec that was specific enough to apply to your desk? |
| 06:10 | <jruderman> | amazing |
| 06:10 | <dbaron> | jruderman, well, there are a bunch of statements about how certain things MUST be equivalent |
| 06:10 | <dbaron> | jruderman, but a UA that always does nothing handles everything equivalently |
| 06:10 | <karlUshi> | jruderman, indeed. amazing is the word. |
| 06:11 | <dbaron> | I'm not sure if we ever went through the spec to double-check, though... |
| 06:11 | <Hixie> | one of the only other requirements in html4 is that the UA not assume a default encoding... but i think you can argue your desk doesn't assume any encoding |
| 06:23 | <gsnedders> | dbaron: but surely you aren't handling everything identically by doing nothing: you're handling them all with quotation marks around them? |
| 06:23 | <Hixie> | the spec doesn't say that's wrong as far as i can tell |
| 06:24 | <dbaron> | it doesn't *do* anything |
| 06:24 | <gsnedders> | No, I don't see anything wrong with that. |
| 06:25 | <gsnedders> | dbaron: it does something: it shows quotation marks, surely? |
| 06:26 | <dbaron> | that's like saying your computer shows a power button in response to your HTML |
| 06:26 | <gsnedders> | I guess. |
| 06:29 | <gsnedders> | Anyone want to make an HTML5 compliant desk? |
| 06:29 | <Hixie> | if anyone does, i recommend getting on with it, it'll become orders of magnitude harder as soon as i start writing the rendering section |
| 06:34 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: peh! just minor technical challenges, that's all :) |
| 06:34 | <Hixie> | it's already pretty difficult |
| 06:34 | <Hixie> | especially if you support scripting |
| 06:35 | gsnedders | points at that corner of the desk for document.write() support |
| 06:35 | <Hixie> | does the corner have a computer on it? :-) |
| 06:35 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: no, two corners have speakers, one has paper, and the last has a copy of Trainspotting on it. |
| 06:36 | <Hixie> | does your desk have scripting disabled then? :_P |
| 06:36 | <gsnedders> | no, I just plan on implementing it in the far right corner :) |
| 06:38 | <Hixie> | i think i found a way in which a desk is not a compliant HTML5 UA |
| 06:39 | <Hixie> | i think HTML5 requires that UAs allow users to follow links |
| 06:39 | Hixie | verifies this claim |
| 06:39 | gsnedders | gets post-it note, and points at the desk at the other end of the room |
| 06:40 | <gsnedders> | (this is actually an interesting POV to look for any holes in the sec) |
| 06:40 | <gsnedders> | *spec |
| 06:40 | <gsnedders> | probably technically rather pointless, though, even for what changes might need to be made |
| 06:40 | <Hixie> | ah no, that's a should |
| 06:40 | <karlUshi> | http://www.mobilewhack.com/microsoft-coffee-table.jpg |
| 06:40 | gsnedders | removes post-it note |
| 06:41 | <gsnedders> | karlUshi: that's cheating. |
| 06:41 | <karlUshi> | ;) I'm a user |
| 06:41 | <Hixie> | aha! |
| 06:41 | <Hixie> | i have found a way in which a desk isn't compliant! |
| 06:41 | <Hixie> | (though this may be a bug in html5) |
| 06:41 | <gsnedders> | karlUshi: I had thought of such things, though. |
| 06:41 | <Hixie> | if you have a document with <link rel="stylesheet" href="..."> with no type="" attribute, the UA must fetch the resource |
| 06:41 | <karlUshi> | gsnedders: nobody defined yet what was a desk |
| 06:42 | <Hixie> | though i guess that we could just say the desk has no network, and therefore will fail network checks |
| 06:42 | <Hixie> | hm |
| 06:42 | <Hixie> | karlUshi: the original desk in this discussion was a very specific desk in dbaron's dorm room |
| 06:42 | <karlUshi> | which makes the geekery dick contest :) pointless |
| 06:43 | <gsnedders> | karlUshi: "desk |desk| noun a piece of furniture with a flat or sloped surface and typically with drawers, at which one can read, write, or do other work." (which annoyingly makes MS Surface a desk) |
| 06:43 | <Hixie> | (that is, it wasn't an arbitrary desk. nor, for what it's worth, is this hypothetical -- the discussion was a very relevant argument regarding spec quality at the time) |
| 06:43 | <karlUshi> | ;) |
| 06:43 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: can we not just get a person to go and get the stylesheet? |
| 06:44 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: the desk certainly isn't a compliant CSS UA |
| 06:44 | <dbaron> | of course, the person is required to get the style sheet and tap it on the desk in morse code, just like the document |
| 06:44 | <dbaron> | we didn't say the desk supports http |
| 06:44 | <dbaron> | just HTML |
| 06:44 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: we aren't attempting to be compliant CSS, are we? |
| 06:44 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 06:44 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: true |
| 06:44 | <gsnedders> | dbaron: yeah, so we can have Human Transportation of Text Protocol! |
| 06:45 | <gsnedders> | (sorry, rather bad back-acronym, but it was the first I came up with) |
| 06:48 | <Hixie> | i think, under certain conditions (rendering section ignored, scripting disabled, not a conformance checker, not a document producer) it may be possible to classify a desk as a conforming HTML5 ua |
| 06:49 | <Hixie> | which makes sense, i mean we have to allow an empty script to be a valid data mining tool |
| 06:49 | <Hixie> | but i guess this comes from having more conformance classes than html4 |
| 10:08 | <hsivonen> | I'd be interested in finding out what visual features are considered "must have" in North American closed captioning |
| 10:09 | <hsivonen> | when I compare European (or Nordic at least) open subtitling practices with the W3C timed text spec, I see vast feature creep in the W3C spec |
| 10:15 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen - so if I have my checker install in /opt/checker and I create a "foo" subdirectory, and I do "build run" from within /opt/checker, then the checker you be able to access the files in foo at the URL http://localhost:8888/foo/ -- right? |
| 10:16 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: oh. no, there's no serving of local files at all |
| 10:17 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: serving local files comes with access control issues and all that |
| 10:18 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: so the Jetty setup only serves data generated in the servlet |
| 10:18 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: in my deployment, I use Apache for serving flat files |
| 10:19 | MikeSmith | remembers now |
| 10:19 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: is this a problem? what kind of setup would you like? |
| 10:20 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen - no, no problem. I realize now that (using Apache to serve local files) was what I was doing before too (before my hard drive crashed and lost all my data) |
| 10:21 | <hsivonen> | a hard drive crash sound bad :-( |
| 10:24 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen - wasn't so bad. I had most of my data backed up. But it crashed just before I had to travel -- two weeks of really unpleasant business travel, which I've just come back from. So, sorry for being daft. Haven't quite gotten back to normal yet. |
| 16:10 | gsnedders | wonders how well he did in the computing test |
| 16:15 | <zcorpan> | gsnedders: what did you write for the ascii and unicode questions? :) |
| 16:15 | <gsnedders> | zcorpan: didn't come up, sadly. |
| 16:16 | <zcorpan> | :( |
| 16:16 | <gsnedders> | zcorpan: nothing wrong came up. nothing interesting to write. |
| 16:16 | <gsnedders> | (well, I suppose I could've written at the end that my hand hurts) |
| 16:16 | <zcorpan> | ok |
| 17:22 | gsnedders | ponders |
| 17:23 | <gsnedders> | en-gb isn't really specific enough, as there are plenty of things that are totally different in meaning in Scotland and England |
| 20:23 | <Hixie> | kingryan: it didn't work |
| 20:23 | <Hixie> | oh |
| 20:23 | <Hixie> | ok, well, i'll tell him later |
| 20:30 | <Hixie> | oh i think i see the error |
| 20:36 | gsnedders | sighs at unicode |
| 20:37 | gsnedders | sighs at how stupidly expensive a function call is in PHP |
| 20:39 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: You could pass the PHP code through a C preprocessor and rewrite the functions as macros |
| 20:39 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: meh. |
| 20:39 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: the function that is called so many times is stupidly small, I may as well just repeat it several times |
| 20:42 | <gsnedders> | heh. how ironic. |
| 20:42 | <gsnedders> | it's calling is_int() checking that the parameter is of the correct type that really slows it down |
| 20:46 | gsnedders | wants proper type-hinting in PHP |
| 20:46 | <hsivonen> | it bothers me that I don't know what timed text features are essential for captioning for the deaf and which features are gratuitous feature creep |
| 21:07 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: you want to see what I've been working on regarding Unicode support for PHP? |
| 21:11 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: I'll assume you'll say yes due to your interest in unicode in PHP, and link you to <http://pastebin.ca/731146>; :) |
| 21:19 | <jgraham> | I am finding writing a release announcement for html5lib 0.10 much much harder than it ought to be |
| 21:35 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: I have a habit of getting others to write such things :) |
| 21:36 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Well I guess I could have tried that |
| 21:54 | <jgraham> | Would anyone with a blog login like to look at my html5lib release announcement for mistakes, style, etc? |
| 23:05 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: "in a head element" is different than "where metadata elements are expected" because other specs might expect metadata elements |
