| 00:01 | <Hixie> | arg, karl is again implying (not very subtly) that browser vendors are somehow hostile to the desires of web developers |
| 00:01 | <jgraham_> | Hixie: where? |
| 00:01 | <Hixie> | public-html |
| 00:02 | jgraham_ | hasn't got that yet |
| 00:03 | <jgraham_> | Oh. What an odd email. |
| 00:06 | <Dashiva> | The vast browser-wing conspiracy lives on |
| 00:08 | <jgraham_> | I wonder why browser makers would want to implement features that "a big majority" of web designers and developers were opposed to. |
| 00:09 | <Hixie> | i think the history of whatwg has shown that should that happen, the spec changes pretty fast to match the desires of said developers |
| 00:25 | <othermaciej> | I think most browser vendors would like to give web designers what they need and want, on the engine side |
| 00:26 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: of course, that's the easiest way to get web developer mindshare, which is a good way to get more market share |
| 00:26 | <othermaciej> | certainly Apple has no nefarious plan to force in features that web designers actively are hostile to |
| 00:26 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: i'm baffled as to why karl believes otherwise |
| 00:26 | <othermaciej> | and I can't imagine what motive we'd have to do so |
| 00:27 | <othermaciej> | not only that, but I am not sure there is such a thing as a feature that a majority of web developers hate so much that they don't want to see it implemented |
| 00:27 | <Hixie> | yeah, they'd just ignore it if they didn't like it |
| 00:27 | <othermaciej> | that they would be actively upset to see it |
| 00:28 | <jgraham_> | I assume he feels that browsers are over-represented in the group and other communities are under represented and therefore concludes that we might do something browser friendly that is hostile to those other communities. But I don't think the conclusion follows in general (for the reason mentioned) |
| 00:29 | <jruderman> | what feature is he unhappy about? |
| 00:29 | <jgraham_> | although in can in specific cases e.g. features that are hard to use in a WYSIWYG editor |
| 00:29 | <othermaciej> | browser vendors are highly motivated by economic incentives to do what web developers and end users want |
| 00:29 | <gavin> | jruderman: I don't think he's pointed to a specific feature |
| 00:30 | <jgraham_> | othermaciej: agreed |
| 00:31 | <jgraham_> | I guess s/for the reason mentioned/for the reasons mentioned by othermaciej and Hixie/ |
| 00:32 | <webben> | I wonder if " some features of the specification" could actually just mean "some aspects of the specification" |
| 00:33 | <webben> | (especially given the immediate context was a discussion of whether things should be namespaced, which is more of an implementation detail than a feature) |
| 00:33 | <othermaciej> | it is highly unlikely that a majority of web developers want specific features to be in a foreign namespace |
| 00:34 | <othermaciej> | it is highly unlikely that a majority of web developers would even know what that means, let alone have an opinion |
| 00:35 | <Philip`> | Is a foreign namespace one that's written in German? |
| 00:36 | <webben> | othermaciej: Well, I guess the relevant datum is developers already namespacing stuff in text/html content. |
| 00:37 | <webben> | They don't really need to know what they're doing to have existing practices. |
| 00:37 | <othermaciej> | webben: would that be evidence that web developers want built-in elements to be namespaced, or that web developers don't understand XML namespaces? |
| 00:38 | <webben> | Neither. |
| 00:38 | <webben> | But I suspect those devs don't want their content to break. |
| 00:39 | <webben> | And would not be perturbed by new features that were namespaced. |
| 16:03 | gsnedders | replies on ietf-http-wg |
| 16:05 | <zcorpan> | pointer? |
| 16:07 | <gsnedders> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg/2007OctDec/0233.html |
| 18:38 | <Hixie> | wtf happened in public-html |
| 18:38 | <Hixie> | we had weeks of nice constructive discussion and suddenly a massive thread about nothing |
| 18:40 | <hober> | Yeah, I threw exactly one post in there to try to steer it toward specific changes to spec text: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Nov/0319.html |
| 18:40 | <hober> | I doubt it actually helped though |
| 18:41 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: looks like I was wrong to stir the "Web pro syntax" thing |
| 18:41 | <hsivonen> | sorry |
| 18:42 | <Hixie> | i love the people demanding that we remove the option to omit quotes on attribute values |
| 18:43 | <Hixie> | especially given that there are significant groups demanding that we keep that feature |
| 18:46 | <Hixie> | i have to say though |
| 18:46 | <Hixie> | i don't understand what all that thread was about |
| 18:46 | <Hixie> | if people want to write docs, they should do so |
| 18:46 | <Hixie> | as anne pointed out, the only people who have written intro docus so far are him and (to a lesser extent) me |
| 18:47 | <Hixie> | so if people want more docs, they should stop whining and just write |
| 18:50 | <hsivonen> | well, I whined what I *don't* want written *within* the WG and it went downhill from there |
| 18:51 | <hsivonen> | I guess I should have waited for someone to write something before whining about the wrong thing getting written |
| 18:51 | <Lachy> | I suppose I could just get started and write something |
| 18:55 | <Hixie> | Lachy: if you write something we won't have to worry about the wrong thing being written :-) |
| 18:56 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: yeah, i think in retrospect when an area has a history if being all talk and no action, whining about the potential action is counterproductive |
| 18:56 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: i guess we learn something every day :-) |
| 18:58 | <Lachy> | Chaals indicated he's happy for me to work on it, should I check with DanC or Karl if their happy for me to be an editor first? |
| 19:14 | <Hixie> | Lachy: i see no reason _not_ to check, but they'd be pretty silly to say no :-) |
| 19:14 | <Hixie> | Lachy: anyway you can always publish it elsewhere if the w3c doesn't want it |
| 19:14 | <Hixie> | btw karl is no longer our staff contact |
| 19:14 | <Hixie> | that's mike smith now |
| 19:17 | <MikeSmith> | but karl is the one taking initiative on any work related to separate docs for authors |
| 19:18 | <Lachy> | yeah, that's why I thought I should check with him |
| 19:18 | <MikeSmith> | as far as I can see, it's not necessary and probably not useful for me to involve myself |
| 19:19 | <Lachy> | Do I have write access to the html5 folder in CVS? I have it for webapi and waf, do I need to get it enabled for html5 too? |
| 19:19 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy - probably maybe |
| 19:19 | <Lachy> | I suppose I could just try it out when I have something to commit. If not, do I just mail sysreq? |
| 19:20 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy - please try a commit |
| 19:20 | <MikeSmith> | if it doesn't work, I can ping system team to set it up |
| 19:21 | <Lachy> | alright, I'll create an html-author folder for this |
| 19:21 | <Lachy> | it worked |
| 19:21 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy - maybe just htm5/authoring ? |
| 19:23 | <Lachy> | I figured html-author would be a good short name for when it eventually goes to /TR/html-author/ |
| 19:23 | <Lachy> | but then html5-author would probably be better |
| 19:23 | Lachy | will fix it |
| 19:27 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy - name in the repository doesn't need to be the same as shortname for TR space |
| 19:27 | <Lachy> | ok |
| 19:27 | <Lachy> | so you want me to rename it to authoring? |
| 19:28 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy - it doesn't matter really |
| 19:28 | <MikeSmith> | If you've already created it |
| 19:29 | <hsivonen> | hmm. canvas hit the html4all list |
| 19:29 | <Lachy> | ok, I'll leave it. It's easier than trying to mess around renaming stuff in CVS (I've had bad experience with CVS in the past, I didn't want to risk it :-)) |
| 19:32 | <Hixie> | as far as i can tell dev.w3.org doesn't have per directory access |
| 19:33 | Lachy | notes that Dreamweaver cannot handle opening and editing a 2MB file! |
| 19:34 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: using the spec as a stress test case? |
| 19:35 | <Lachy> | I was using the current spec as a starting point, and was just going to rewrite the intro and strip out all stuff aimed at implementers |
| 19:35 | <Lachy> | I'll have to find a better editor that can handle large files |
| 19:36 | <Philip`> | The spec needs reorganisation to be readable, not just stripping things out |
| 19:37 | <Lachy> | Philip`, yeah, but it's got all the element definitions in there |
| 19:37 | <Hixie> | if all you want to do is make a version of the spec for authors, i'd wait for the spec itself to have that annotated |
| 19:37 | <Hixie> | i thought you wanted to write a totally separate document |
| 19:38 | <Hixie> | keeping a document in sync with the html5 spec is going to be a gigantic amount of work for you |
| 19:38 | <Lachy> | Hixie, it will be more than than that. But it will include the element element definitions (i.e. the contnet models and dom apis) is a starting point |
| 19:39 | <Hixie> | ok, but fyi, the content models are very much in flux (i haven't yet looked at much of henri's feedback) |
| 19:39 | <Lachy> | I realise that |
| 19:39 | <Hixie> | ok |
| 19:40 | <Hixie> | just don't want you getting snowed in with make-work :-) |
| 19:40 | <Hixie> | afk, going to work |
| 20:12 | <virtuelv> | Lachy: on documents that large, the only thing that works is either VI or emacs |
| 20:19 | <Lachy> | I don't like vi or emacs, they're too complicated |
| 20:20 | <virtuelv> | OpenKomodo also handles some of the stuff I do ok-ish |
| 20:20 | <virtuelv> | (but it pretty much chokes on the html5 spec |
| 20:34 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: you are on Mac, TextWrangler works |
| 20:39 | <Lachy> | I do my editing on the PC cause it has a bigger screen and better keyboard |
| 20:39 | <Lachy> | I just use this macbook for IRC, IM clients, email, browsing, etc. |
| 20:40 | <Lachy> | I also need to find a nice CVS and SVN client for the mac that gives me a simple GUI like TortoiseSVN/CVS do on Windows |
| 20:42 | hsivonen | uses command line and Eclipse |
| 20:42 | <Hixie> | command line and emacs baby |
| 20:42 | <Hixie> | (there's no other real solution that works under ssh) |
| 20:43 | <Lachy> | I like to avoid command line where possible, since it's requires too much typing |
| 20:43 | <hsivonen> | I just rediscovered that HTML5 floats and WF2 floats are different |
| 20:43 | <Hixie> | that's what scripts are for |
| 20:45 | <hsivonen> | hmm. when I'm done with HTML5 (including WF2) datatypes, the only XSD thing left is ID or NCName |
| 20:45 | <Lachy> | hmm. OSX doesn't include the cvs command by default |
| 20:45 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: it does if you install everything that came in the box |
| 20:45 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: Leopard includes svn, too |
| 20:45 | <Hixie> | yeah you might have to install the dev tools |
| 20:45 | <hsivonen> | (everything includes the Developer Tools) |
| 20:46 | <Lachy> | I installed the XCode tools earlier today |
| 20:46 | <hsivonen> | I need to come up with nice names for WF2 floats |
| 20:47 | <hsivonen> | nice names for code and nice names for UI |
| 20:47 | <hsivonen> | floating point number with optional exponent? |
| 20:47 | <hsivonen> | float-exp |
| 20:47 | <Hixie> | yeah, sorry about the mess there |
| 20:47 | <Hixie> | not sure exactly what we should do with those |
| 20:48 | <Hixie> | hopefully the forms task force will finish soon and we'll be able to finally merge WF2 with HTML5 |
| 20:48 | <Hixie> | (hahaha) |
| 20:49 | <Hixie> | oh hey, only two more days til the "forms tf internal charter review period" ends |
| 20:50 | <hsivonen> | oops email, mimetype-list and charset-list have fallen through the cracks |
| 20:50 | <hsivonen> | more entries for the wiki page |
| 20:50 | <hsivonen> | more code to write |
| 20:50 | <Hixie> | anyone want to lay odds on the review period being extended because everyone forgot to review the charter? |
| 20:50 | <Hixie> | i give it about even odds |
| 20:51 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: saying it here is tampering with the odds |
| 20:51 | <Hixie> | i guess so |
| 20:51 | <Hixie> | though i don't know in which direction :-) |
| 20:52 | <hsivonen> | I feel tempted to restrict charset-list to charsets that are implemented and sane |
| 20:52 | <hsivonen> | but I guess in theory I should scrape the IANA registry |
| 20:53 | <hsivonen> | I expect unexpected craziness in the email datatype |
| 20:53 | <Hixie> | i think i scoped out the craziness of the e-mail datatype |
| 20:54 | <Hixie> | by picking a strategic entry point for you |
| 20:54 | <hsivonen> | ah. excellent. thanks |
| 20:55 | <hsivonen> | oh. cute. dependency on IDN and, therefore, Punycode |
| 20:56 | <Hixie> | ah yeah, can't help you avoid that, sorry. |
| 20:58 | <hsivonen> | minor nit: I think you should say "addr-spec production" instead of "addr-spec token" |
| 21:01 | <Hixie> | yeah, good point. can you send mail? i'll totally forget it by the time i get back to wf2. |
| 21:01 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: email sent |
| 21:01 | <Hixie> | ta |
| 21:03 | <Lachy> | I haven't seen any comments on public-forms-tf about the charter since the telcon at the end of october. I don't think anyone has reviewed it :-) |
| 21:04 | <Hixie> | Lachy: yeah, exactly |
| 21:04 | <Hixie> | it's not really clear to me that anyone on the task force actually really cares, to be honest |
| 21:05 | <Lachy> | nice to know the task force working as expected :-) |
| 21:05 | <Hixie> | no comment |
| 21:08 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: is it intentional that 1. is a valid HTML5 float |
| 21:08 | <hsivonen> | ? |
| 21:08 | <hsivonen> | it isn't a valid WF2 float |
| 21:09 | <hsivonen> | hmm. .1 is also not a valid WF2 float |
| 21:12 | <Hixie> | i doubt any of the differences are intentional |
| 21:12 | <Hixie> | they were mostly based on whatever i found when reverse engineering stuff |
| 21:12 | <Hixie> | it's likely the wf2 stuff is based on what i thought would be good, vs html5's stuff which is based on legacy implementations |
| 21:13 | <hsivonen> | makes sense since WF2 is a submission format |
| 21:13 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 21:13 | <hsivonen> | however, for consistency, .1 and 1. could be made non-conforming on the non-WF2 side |
| 21:13 | <Hixie> | i'd rather make them conforming on the other side, if they work |
| 21:13 | <Hixie> | but yeah |
| 21:13 | <Hixie> | (especially .1) |
| 21:13 | <hsivonen> | I'm not sure if that would help authors, though |
| 21:14 | <hsivonen> | yeah |
| 21:14 | <hsivonen> | I guess they are now as good as they are going to get |
| 21:14 | <hsivonen> | and authors just have to deal with the discrepancy with leading/trailing zero omission |
| 21:14 | <Hixie> | what are? authors? :-) |
| 21:14 | <Hixie> | oh, the formats |
| 21:14 | <Hixie> | i'd like them the same if we can |
| 21:14 | <Hixie> | but i'm not sure we can |
| 21:17 | <hsivonen> | the wiki list of microsyntaxes keeps growing |
| 21:18 | <hsivonen> | 31 already. I'm going to add 2 more |
| 21:20 | <hsivonen> | and that's ignoring the inputmode attribute, because magically, it is actually possible to construct with RELAX NG list{} |
| 21:23 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 21:25 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg/2007OctDec/0241.html — more mailing list fun |
| 21:25 | <hsivonen> | in due course, I should write a by-reference spec for these 33 microsyntaxes |
| 21:26 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: actually it would make a lot of sense for ABNF to support namespaces |
| 21:26 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: since it's a programming format |
| 21:26 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: if you want oddities in the microsyntaxes in HTML 5, take a look at my emails on public-html (just search the subject for something like detailed spec review of common microsyntaxes) |
| 21:27 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: agreed |
| 21:27 | <Hixie> | the biggest problem with ABNF is that it is REALLY freaking hard to write ABNF in a way that defines error handling |
| 21:27 | <Hixie> | that's the main reason i don't use it much |
| 21:27 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: I don't want oddities. I just think that the RELAX NG datatype library for HTML5 should have a spec |
| 21:27 | <Hixie> | (i used it for the event-source stuff, and even there, where i was TRYING to define error handling, i still made mistakes, and ended up having to duplicate the work in prose anyway) |
| 21:28 | <hsivonen> | precise enough to let someone write an interoperable implementation in another programming language without looking at my code |
| 21:28 | <Hixie> | i've found some sites that use an "adx.js" library |
| 21:28 | <Hixie> | anyone know anything about it? |
| 21:28 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: in reply to the one on the same list yesterday regarding error handling, I got told basically that I could do it in another spec, and they wouldn't do it |
| 21:28 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: cool, a license to write a replacement http spec from the http group |
| 21:28 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: sounds like a plan! |
| 21:29 | <hsivonen> | RFC 26165 |
| 21:29 | <gsnedders> | RFC2616bisbis |
| 21:30 | <Hixie> | oh maybe this is openads |
| 21:31 | <hsivonen> | do mailto URL allow something crazier than what WF2 allows for the address? |
| 22:17 | <hsivonen> | bah. mediawiki does not like <samp> |
| 22:35 | <Hixie> | http://www.losingfight.com/blog/2006/08/11/the-sordid-tale-of-mm_menufw_menujs/ is funny |
| 22:45 | <Dashiva> | I've been in that "expert" position way too often. Who am I going to hate now? :P |
| 22:47 | <Hixie> | hehe |
| 22:47 | <Hixie> | anyone able to work out what tmv11.js is from? |
| 22:50 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: are you mining the most common scripts for declarative features to add? |
| 22:50 | <Hixie> | i'm mining the most common scripts, yeah |
| 22:50 | <Hixie> | for various reasons, one of which is finding out what is needed for html5 |
| 22:52 | <Hixie> | it's surprising how many scripts have pretty unique filenames |
| 22:52 | <Hixie> | (a strong argument against namespacing being needed, imho) |
| 22:53 | <Hixie> | and that's in a space with no need for unique names, given that we have domains and so forth to disambiguate |
| 22:54 | <Lachy> | I've made a start on the document http://lachy.id.au/temp/html5-authors.html |
| 22:56 | <Hixie> | "and un XHTML examples" |
| 22:56 | <Hixie> | s/un/in/ |
| 22:56 | <Lachy> | fixed in local copy |
| 22:57 | <Hixie> | you can probably cut a lot out of the Terminology section |
| 22:57 | <Lachy> | yeah, I know. I cut out a bit already |
| 22:57 | <Lachy> | going to rewrite some of it to be more author-friendly |
| 22:58 | <Hixie> | in fact you should probably assume that nobody will read that section, they'll just jump to the subsection they care about, and thus the language should be unambiguous even without the terminology section |
| 22:58 | <Lachy> | ok, good point |
| 22:58 | <Hixie> | you have the advantage that you don't need it to be perfectly defined, since this isn't normative |
| 22:58 | <Lachy> | ok |
| 23:18 | <Hixie> | wtf is this tmv11.js thing |
| 23:18 | <Hixie> | i can find lots of sites using tmv11.js, but they're all different |
| 23:18 | <Hixie> | yet the name seems unlikely to be coincidentally chosen by multiple different groups |
| 23:18 | <Hixie> | http://www.postimees.ee/lib/tmv11.js is one |
| 23:19 | <Hixie> | i wanna see avenue q again. |
| 23:19 | <Hixie> | er, wrong channel. |
| 23:19 | <Hixie> | http://www.diskusjon.no/tmv11.js |
| 23:19 | <hsivonen> | looks like a statistics tracker script |
| 23:20 | <Hixie> | yeah but normally i can track these down to someone who made it |
| 23:20 | <Hixie> | oh hey they both point to statistik-gallup.net |
| 23:20 | <Hixie> | 'course that returns a 404 |
| 23:22 | <Dashiva> | To the web archive-mobile |
| 23:23 | <Dashiva> | Or not, robots.txt'd |
| 23:24 | <Hixie> | i'll just call it the statistik-gallup.net tracking script |
| 23:43 | <Dashiva> | Heh, I forgot all the heading elements in that HTML element quiz |
| 23:45 | <Hixie> | i wanna see the results for that quiz |
| 23:45 | <Hixie> | which elements do people remember? |
| 23:46 | <Dashiva> | Well, even though I forgot option, I still remember to use it :) |
| 23:49 | <Hixie> | 30 seconds left |
| 23:49 | <Hixie> | 18 elements remain |
| 23:50 | <Hixie> | hmmm |
| 23:50 | <Philip`> | They should make it like The Typing of the Dead, so you have to type in HTML element names to fend off hordes of zombies |
| 23:50 | <Hixie> | i forgot BASE, BASEFONT, BDO, DFN, DIR, KBD, LABEL, MENU, NOFRAMES, NOSCRIPT, OPTGROUP, PRE, Q, SAMP, SUB, SUP, TITLE |
| 23:51 | <Dashiva> | I got some of the obscure ones like bdo just because I remember them as obscure :) |
| 23:51 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 23:51 | <Hixie> | i'm just bad at remembering things like this |
| 23:51 | <Hixie> | i'm amazed i got 74 |
| 23:52 | <Hixie> | wtf is http://cpro.baidu.com/cpro/ui/cp.js |
| 23:55 | <Dashiva> | I'd guess it's for embedding flash in an iframe based on that big function |
| 23:57 | <Dashiva> | Assembles lots of vars, then pushes them as query string to a PHP script used as src for the iframe... |
| 23:59 | <Philip`> | The variables like cpro_client and cpro_h look like inputs the script, so presumably they're set before this script is called |
| 23:59 | <Philip`> | *inputs to the script |