| 00:00 | <Philip`> | Hmm, it says <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"> but the web server sends Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 |
| 00:00 | <Philip`> | (on http://www.web3d.org/x3d/specifications/ISO-IEC-19775-X3DAbstractSpecification_Revision1_to_Part1/Part01/components/navigation.html ) |
| 00:21 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: that hurts my brain |
| 00:22 | <Hixie> | hurt mine, too |
| 00:22 | Hixie | tries to satisfy Roy |
| 00:40 | <Hixie> | do Athenia Associates have anything to do with Movable Type? |
| 00:41 | <Hixie> | i don't understand why their copyright is in almost every mt-site.js file: |
| 00:41 | <Hixie> | http://www.solareditores.com/digital/blog/mt-site.js |
| 00:41 | <Hixie> | wait, that one doesn't mention movable type |
| 00:41 | <Hixie> | some of them do |
| 00:42 | <Hixie> | and they all look basically the same near the top |
| 00:44 | <Hixie> | many do seem to mention typekey |
| 00:44 | <Hixie> | which is a six apart thing, as is movable type, for which it was made, or something |
| 00:44 | <Hixie> | gah |
| 00:44 | <Hixie> | con-foosed |
| 01:02 | <kingryan> | Hixie: it looks like six apart just used some free code copyrighted by athenia |
| 01:14 | <Hixie> | maybe, yeah |
| 01:58 | <Hixie> | why are people still complaining about the spec having too much targetted at (whatever isn't their conformance class), when I've already said multiple times that we will in due course annotate the spec to provide different views to address this? |
| 01:58 | <Hixie> | do they just not believe me? or what? |
| 02:02 | <othermaciej> | well, T.V. Raman just favorably quoted a claim (effectively) that document conformance is not defined at all |
| 02:02 | <othermaciej> | which just seems wrong to me |
| 02:11 | <Dashiva> | Hixie: You're still *gasp* spending time editing those parts of the spec |
| 02:16 | <karlUshi> | Hixie? |
| 02:16 | <karlUshi> | would it be possible to change karl⊙wo by mike⊙wo in http://blog.whatwg.org/w3c-restarts-html-effort |
| 02:16 | <karlUshi> | I keep receiving requests :) |
| 02:16 | <karlUshi> | that I would prefer to have to redirect to mike |
| 02:17 | <karlUshi> | Thanks. |
| 03:38 | <MikeSmith> | regarding request from karl, it might be better to just point that blog entry to here: |
| 03:38 | <MikeSmith> | http://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/40318/instructions |
| 04:05 | <Hixie> | karl: done |
| 04:05 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: the reason for that blog post was that the instructions on w3.org weren't simple enough |
| 04:06 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie - OK, I see |
| 06:07 | <othermaciej> | http://www.justsayhi.com/bb/html_quiz |
| 06:10 | <Hixie> | i think i got about 70 odd when i tried |
| 06:10 | <Hixie> | i pasted the ones i missed in the channel |
| 06:12 | <othermaciej> | I got 65 |
| 06:13 | <othermaciej> | any that both of us missed should probably be dropped :-) |
| 06:21 | <Hixie> | i missed some pretty important ones :-) |
| 06:22 | <mpt> | 64 |
| 06:24 | <mpt> | I forgot all the monospace ones |
| 06:28 | <othermaciej> | I missed <html> |
| 13:06 | <Philip`> | Is http://xml.resource.org/ the sensible thing for writing RFC-like documents? |
| 13:47 | <julianreschke> | Philip: yes, xml.resource.org is a good starting point. You may also want to try the XSLT version when generating HTML output. |
| 13:47 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen_: made http://simon.html5.org/temp/validator-nu-collapse.html work in ie6 |
| 13:57 | <Philip`> | julianreschke: Okay, thanks |
| 13:58 | Philip` | tries the XSLT version, and sees that it seems to work nicely |
| 14:00 | <julianreschke> | Philip: if it doesn't, or if you have questions, please feel free to complain :-) |
| 15:02 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie - awake? |
| 15:06 | <Lachy> | hey MikeSmith, that was an awesome response you sent about canvas today. Best explanation I've seen for why canvas is needed :-) |
| 15:10 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy - thanks |
| 15:10 | <MikeSmith> | took me a few minutes to write that one |
| 15:10 | <MikeSmith> | plus a few minutes prior to that to think about it a little |
| 15:18 | <hendry> | Lachy: URL? :) |
| 15:18 | <Lachy> | hendry, see public-html |
| 15:18 | <hendry> | ok |
| 15:20 | <zcorpan> | was it the very long email? :) |
| 15:20 | <Lachy> | yes |
| 15:21 | zcorpan | didn't read that one completely |
| 16:38 | <hendry> | can anyone recommend some good canvas demos that will work in Firefox 2.0.0.10? |
| 16:39 | <zcorpan> | define "good" |
| 16:39 | <hendry> | not tests |
| 16:40 | <hendry> | something that will impress your friends |
| 16:40 | <zcorpan> | http://simon.html5.org/presentations/html5-geekmeet.en points to 3 demos |
| 16:42 | <Philip`> | hendry: You really don't want 2.0.0.10 |
| 16:43 | <Philip`> | because drawImage doesn't work in it |
| 16:43 | <hendry> | umm, http://tapper-ware.net/canvas3d/ doesn't work because of that |
| 16:44 | <Philip`> | Use http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/nightly/2.0.0.11-candidates/rc1/ if you want anything non-trivial to work |
| 16:44 | <Philip`> | or use Opera :-) |
| 16:45 | <hendry> | are the any dev tools like PHP or something that make it easy for devs to generate canvas code? GWT? |
| 16:45 | <Philip`> | http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/ is still my favourite canvas demo but I'm totally biased |
| 16:45 | <Philip`> | hendry: Why would you want to generate code, rather than just writing it? |
| 16:46 | <hendry> | ok, my use case wouldn't be games (like several of the demos I've seen) |
| 16:47 | <hendry> | i want to perhaps visualize data with canvas. so i'm left wondering perhaps howto get access.log and <canvas> to talk |
| 16:47 | <Philip`> | Like http://www.liquidx.net/plotkit/ ? |
| 16:48 | <hendry> | Philip`: ah, that's more like it |
| 16:49 | <zcorpan> | or you could use svg :) |
| 16:52 | <hendry> | SVG almost detracts from canvas. Because you can use SVG for example instead of <canvas> in plotkit can't you? And probably in a lot of other use cases too |
| 16:53 | <zcorpan> | likely |
| 16:53 | <Philip`> | There are lots of cases where they can overlap |
| 16:53 | <Philip`> | and some of those are nicer in canvas, and some are nicer in SVG |
| 16:54 | <Philip`> | and other cases can only realistically be done in one or the other |
| 16:55 | <hendry> | ok an example for specific case |
| 16:56 | <hendry> | can SVG do animation? canvas can defn. do animation |
| 16:56 | <hendry> | canvas is somewhat supported in IE6 right? that SVG isn't? |
| 16:57 | <Philip`> | SVG can do declarative animation, and you can do scripted animation too |
| 16:58 | <hendry> | hmm, so there is no distinction between the two with animation |
| 16:58 | <Philip`> | There's a nasty hack to get some support for some parts of <canvas> in IE, which it seems people are using successfully in practice |
| 16:59 | <Philip`> | I don't think anyone does the same to make SVG work in IE |
| 16:59 | <hendry> | so +1 for canvas. kinda.d |
| 17:00 | <hendry> | i need IE6 on this macosx machine i have for testing |
| 17:00 | <Philip`> | hendry: There is a distinction - e.g. SVG lets you animate a single object moving, whereas canvas requires you to repaint the entire screen whenever you change something |
| 17:01 | <Philip`> | and SVG has annoying bugs in most implementations when you try doing something fancy, whereas canvas is more predictable since it has simple bugs instead of fancy bugs |
| 17:02 | <hendry> | so there is some talk about canvas3D |
| 17:02 | <hendry> | silly question: can SVG do 3D? :) |
| 17:03 | <Philip`> | Canvas-3d is pretty much totally different to canvas-2d |
| 17:03 | <Philip`> | (http://blog.vlad1.com/2007/11/26/canvas-3d-gl-power-web-style/ etc) |
| 17:03 | <hendry> | and so would SVG-3D I guess (if it exists?) |
| 17:04 | <Philip`> | SVG is just focussed on 2D, and doesn't make it easy to emulate 3D |
| 17:04 | <Philip`> | There's stuff like X3D which is kind of analogous to SVG except 3D |
| 17:04 | <hendry> | http://apike.ca/prog_svg_threed.html |
| 17:07 | hendry | thinks if i could do a couple of ven diagrams showing 1) support in browsers 2) use cases it could accomplish |
| 17:07 | <hendry> | perhaps a little pointless as the future (support + features) is probably the most important elements in my mind. |
| 17:07 | <Philip`> | That cube appears to not work in either Opera or Firefox 2 :-( |
| 17:09 | <Philip`> | From what I've seen, canvas-2d allows slightly more impressive 3D emulation, though obviously it's all useless compared to canvas-3d |
| 20:57 | Philip` | wonders why "[whatwg] "All" checkbox possible?" got marked as spam |
| 20:58 | <Philip`> | False positives are kind of annoying :-( |
| 22:17 | <Hixie> | someone with an account on this forum -- http://www.memestreams.net/thread/bid34588/ -- should post a reply pointing them to the updated faq answer |
| 22:20 | <G0k> | hey has anyone read about the w3c REX thing? |
| 22:21 | <G0k> | http://www.w3.org/TR/rex/ |
| 22:22 | <Hixie> | my understanding is that patent issues killed that spec |
| 22:22 | <Hixie> | but i could be wrong |
| 22:22 | <Hixie> | it was basically a dom patching format |
| 22:23 | <G0k> | patents on...dom patching? |
| 22:23 | <G0k> | (only curious because html5's dom events thing has some major cross over there) |
| 22:23 | <Hixie> | i don't know what the patents were on, i specifically try to avoid learning about patents so as to avoid patent knowledge liability |
| 22:23 | <Hixie> | the dom events stuff is actually very different |
| 22:23 | <Hixie> | it doesn't do dom patching, it just spawns events |
| 22:24 | <Hixie> | rex sounds like the same thing but is actually very different when you look at actually what it does |
| 22:24 | <Hixie> | iirc |
| 22:24 | <G0k> | the events could be dom manipulation events though right? |
| 22:24 | <Hixie> | sure but they don't cause anything to happen |
| 22:24 | <G0k> | although...it doesn't specify how you handle them |
| 22:24 | <G0k> | ah |
| 22:24 | <G0k> | yeah |
| 22:24 | <Hixie> | dom manipulation events everywhere except in the rex spec are triggered _by_ mutations, not the other way aronud (which is unique to rex) |
| 22:28 | <G0k> | interesting |
| 23:29 | <Hixie> | i think i can safely announce that /js/ is the winner of most popular directory to put your site-specific scripts in |
| 23:29 | <Hixie> | outbeating /scripts/ and /jscripts/ and /javascript/ by a lot |
| 23:32 | <othermaciej> | how popular is "ecmascript"? |
| 23:33 | <Hixie> | i didn't see it |
| 23:34 | <Dashiva> | What about for style? |
| 23:34 | <Hixie> | don't know, just doing scripts here |
| 23:35 | jwalden | snickers at "ecmascript" |
| 23:36 | <othermaciej> | that's about the level I was expecting |
| 23:36 | othermaciej | was thinking of proposing that ECMAScript 4 be renamed to JavaScript 4 |
| 23:36 | <othermaciej> | because most web developers haven't a fucking clue what ECMAScript is |
| 23:37 | <Hixie> | ECMAScript was used to avoid trademark issues with Sun and Java |
| 23:37 | <Hixie> | it was intentionally a stupid name so nobody would use it |
| 23:39 | <othermaciej> | yeah, I don't think the trademark issue is real |
| 23:39 | <othermaciej> | certainly not any more |
| 23:39 | <othermaciej> | would be a good bug to fix now if we can |
| 23:39 | <othermaciej> | especially since the new spec uses "ES" and "ECMASCRIPT" in identifiers |
| 23:41 | <Dashiva> | Might be problematic with regard to mozilla |
| 23:41 | <Hixie> | ew |
| 23:41 | <Dashiva> | Their js2 runs mostly parallel to es4 |