| 00:10 | <Hixie> | only 12000 lines to go |
| 00:37 | <jgraham> | Hixie: In the (R)CDATA processing algorithm, what are you supposed to do with any EOF token at the end? Process it in the current mode or ignore it? |
| 00:38 | <jgraham> | Oh, wait a sec. I think the bug I have is somewhere else |
| 00:38 | <jgraham> | You process it, right? |
| 00:38 | <jgraham> | (otherwise <body> might not be generated) |
| 00:38 | <Hixie> | yes |
| 00:39 | <Hixie> | (and you get a parse error for seeing it) |
| 00:39 | <Hixie> | iirc |
| 00:48 | <jgraham> | All our tree construction tests pass again (at last!) |
| 00:49 | <jgraham> | just a few lxp issues to fix and we can do a release |
| 01:37 | <andersca> | Hixie? |
| 01:41 | <Hixie> | yo |
| 01:53 | <andersca> | Hixie: in the cache update algorithm |
| 01:53 | <andersca> | Hixie: is there any reason why step 22 and 23 aren't say, after step 15? |
| 01:55 | <Hixie> | nope |
| 02:15 | <bradee-oh> | Hixie: around still? |
| 02:17 | <Hixie> | yep |
| 02:18 | <bradee-oh> | Hixie: should there be an onstorage attribute in the spec for storage events? IE8 seems to have taken it upon themselves to have one |
| 02:18 | <Hixie> | yeah, i haven't yet added the onfoo attributes for new events |
| 02:18 | <Hixie> | feel free to add one |
| 02:19 | <Hixie> | to your implementation, i mean |
| 02:19 | <bradee-oh> | Hixie: okay - so a followup is... |
| 02:20 | <bradee-oh> | Hixie: that we find it curious that the storageevents are fired directly to the body element |
| 02:20 | <Hixie> | as opposed to what? |
| 02:21 | <bradee-oh> | well, it seems the event doesn't belong to any particular element and is more of a window-level event. like onload/unload and etc |
| 02:21 | bradee-oh | shrugs |
| 02:21 | <Hixie> | right |
| 02:21 | <Hixie> | <body onload> |
| 02:21 | <Hixie> | <body onstorage> |
| 02:21 | <Hixie> | or whatever the event is called |
| 02:21 | <Hixie> | no? |
| 02:23 | <bradee-oh> | Hixie: so <body onload> has this weird behavior where you declare it on the body element, but it's fired on the window |
| 02:23 | <bradee-oh> | Hixie: is that what onstorage should be too? |
| 02:23 | <Hixie> | that varies based on the UA |
| 02:24 | <Hixie> | i was vaguely hoping to just make all the UAs fire everything on body and have them all bubble to window, or something |
| 02:24 | <Hixie> | i haven't yet looked at that in detail, that's one reason i haven't added onstorage, etc |
| 02:24 | <bradee-oh> | interesting |
| 02:24 | <bradee-oh> | okay |
| 02:24 | <Hixie> | the idea is to be consistent throughout |
| 02:24 | <Hixie> | but UAs vary as it is, so... |
| 02:24 | <bradee-oh> | alright |
| 02:24 | <bradee-oh> | interesting |
| 02:25 | <bradee-oh> | Hixie: okay, well right now, I'll add onstorage and have it act exactly like the other <body> level onfoo events |
| 02:25 | <bradee-oh> | Hixie: and we'll be on the lookout for clarification in the spec ;) |
| 02:27 | <Hixie> | k |
| 02:27 | <Hixie> | thanks |
| 02:28 | <bradee-oh> | k thx bai |
| 02:28 | <bradee-oh> | :) |
| 02:31 | <andersca> | Hixie: thank you |
| 02:31 | <Hixie> | np |
| 06:02 | dbaron_ | reports a bug in acid3 |
| 06:12 | <bradee-oh> | dbaron: what bug would that be? |
| 06:12 | <dbaron> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Apr/0036.html |
| 06:20 | <othermaciej> | looks like we'll be back to 99/100... |
| 06:22 | <othermaciej> | (I wonder what bug in WebKit leads us to pass that test) |
| 06:24 | <othermaciej> | hmm I don't think I understand media query sytax |
| 06:24 | <Hixie> | yeah the more i learn about media queries the less i like them |
| 06:24 | <Hixie> | sheesh |
| 06:25 | <othermaciej> | shouldn't these also match: |
| 06:25 | <othermaciej> | oh wait never mind I was probably looking at ones that are syntax errors |
| 06:26 | <othermaciej> | I was thinking "@media all, all and min-color: 0" should match, but it needs the parens, right? |
| 06:26 | <othermaciej> | is "@media (min-color: 0) and (min-monochrome: 0)" a syntax error? |
| 06:27 | <othermaciej> | or is a media type required to be the first part of the query? |
| 06:28 | <dbaron> | it's possible that WebKit/Opera don't implement the monochrome feature at all |
| 06:28 | <dbaron> | which would make them pass |
| 06:30 | <othermaciej> | no, I think we do implement the monochrome feature |
| 06:30 | <othermaciej> | but we always fail if the screen is not monochrome |
| 06:31 | <othermaciej> | (which it normally is not) |
| 06:31 | <othermaciej> | I guess we need to special-case 0 |
| 06:32 | <dbaron> | othermaciej, well, the spec says 0 should be special-cased when matching features without values like (monochrome) |
| 06:32 | <dbaron> | othermaciej, and then the value of the monochrome feature is 0 |
| 06:34 | <othermaciej> | yeah our code already has no-value special cases |
| 06:34 | <roc> | what if the window spans two screens and one is monochrome and the other one isn't! |
| 06:34 | <othermaciej> | the logic for monochrome is just wrong, I think |
| 06:34 | <othermaciej> | as is color |
| 06:34 | <othermaciej> | though in a different way |
| 06:34 | <othermaciej> | color: 1 would match even on a monochrome screen |
| 06:35 | <Hixie> | hm |
| 06:35 | <Hixie> | doesn't making the media optional mean we lose the back-compat with html4? |
| 06:35 | <dbaron> | othermaciej, you're saying that's your bug that it would match, right? |
| 06:35 | <othermaciej> | dbaron: yes |
| 06:35 | <Hixie> | i guess that was thrown out as a design constraint |
| 06:35 | <dbaron> | Hixie, yeah, I was a little surprised when Håkon proposed that... |
| 06:36 | <dbaron> | Hixie, but it is cleaner to write once it's implemented |
| 06:36 | <Hixie> | fair enough |
| 06:36 | <dbaron> | Hixie, so it sort of makes sense as a long-term thing, at least |
| 06:36 | <Hixie> | do you mind if i just test the changed stuff? we already have one test that was just changed when the spec was errated, instead of removing the test |
| 06:36 | <Hixie> | it's not ideal |
| 06:37 | <Hixie> | but it's better for interop on the long run |
| 06:37 | <Hixie> | and i'm sure opera and webkit won't mind |
| 06:37 | <dbaron> | btw, the Acid3 media queries test primarily tests the two features that are hardest for us to implement... |
| 06:37 | <dbaron> | you mean, change the tests to say that they should match? |
| 06:37 | <dbaron> | I don't mind. |
| 06:37 | <Hixie> | k |
| 06:37 | <dbaron> | You should probably ask Opera and WebKit folks. |
| 06:37 | <Hixie> | i will, don't worry |
| 06:38 | <Hixie> | i wanted to test more of the stuff for media queries, but it's very hard to test in an automated fashion across multiple devices |
| 06:38 | <Hixie> | what are the cases that are hard to implement? |
| 06:38 | <dbaron> | color/monochrome |
| 06:39 | <dbaron> | We'd have to figure out the right platform APIs for getting that stuff |
| 06:39 | <dbaron> | particularly fun for printers |
| 06:39 | <dbaron> | which is where it really matters |
| 06:39 | <dbaron> | of course, with printers, you don't always know |
| 06:39 | <Hixie> | ah, yeah |
| 06:39 | <dbaron> | you probably just pretend print-to-PDF is printing to a color device |
| 06:39 | <Hixie> | printers will make that hard indeed |
| 06:39 | <dbaron> | but in many cases you actually do know |
| 06:39 | <dbaron> | and it's actually a pretty useful feature |
| 06:40 | <dbaron> | and in some cases print-to-file APIs are associated with a particular printer |
| 06:40 | <dbaron> | but getting all that stuff right is probably as much work as all the rest of media queries |
| 06:40 | <dbaron> | (getting all that stuff right x 3 platforms) |
| 06:41 | <dbaron> | well, maybe not for somebody who knows the platform APIs well |
| 06:41 | <Hixie> | hey, i think the min-color/min-monochrome stuff is mostly wrong because i meant to use max-, heh |
| 06:42 | <dbaron> | I was thinking you might have meant min-color: 1 |
| 06:42 | <dbaron> | which is the opposite of max-color: 0 |
| 06:43 | <Hixie> | i guess some of the tests should be max and some min, if i have :0 |
| 06:45 | <dbaron> | anyway, I should head home |
| 07:36 | <tomg> | does gecko hate me? |
| 08:08 | <dbaron> | tomg, why would you think that? |
| 08:45 | <met_> | annevk, do you know something about WF2 form prefilling in Opera? I am not able to make it works. Was it implemented? |
| 08:46 | <met_> | When i set form data attr, the url is download, but the form is not filled |
| 08:51 | <mpt> | I have a proposal for English5: The words "not" and "now" should differ by more than a single letter. |
| 08:57 | <Hixie> | can't change that |
| 08:57 | <Hixie> | it would break back compat |
| 08:57 | Hixie | ducks |
| 09:07 | <othermaciej> | do we really need to be able to support *all* existing English documents? |
| 09:08 | <othermaciej> | English5 seems like a great time to clean up some of the messy warts of the language |
| 09:11 | <Hixie> | user agents aren't going to implement english5 if it doesn't handle existing english documents |
| 09:11 | <Hixie> | including all the legacy crap that's out there |
| 09:12 | <zcorpan_> | define "not" and "now" the same so either can be used, and let the UA work out the semantics by context |
| 09:19 | <othermaciej> | the problem is that we left semantics to the content |
| 09:19 | <othermaciej> | it needs to be in the markup so tools can process it |
| 09:19 | <othermaciej> | <span role="negation">not</span> |
| 09:19 | <othermaciej> | now *that's* machine-parseable |
| 09:20 | <Hixie> | but we have to define the processing for legacy documents too |
| 09:20 | <Hixie> | at which point, we don't need new syntax |
| 09:20 | <Pavlov> | well |
| 09:20 | <Hixie> | (i wouldn't try the "that's a horrific design idea" argument on that one, which is the real argument) |
| 09:20 | <Hixie> | (because people don't seem to like being told their design sucks!) |
| 09:21 | <othermaciej> | yes, but at least new authors could write clear, unambiguous documents using the superior new markup |
| 09:21 | <othermaciej> | and some user agents will be able to omit the code for legacy document heuristics |
| 09:22 | <Hixie> | well we can try it as a microformat, and if that is successful, then i would fully agree to add it to the spec |
| 09:22 | <Pavlov> | we could just have a codepoint for all words |
| 09:22 | <Hixie> | Pavlov: you mean like CJK? :-) |
| 09:23 | <Pavlov> | itw ould have to be bigger than that |
| 09:23 | <hsivonen> | hendry: http://blog.ciarang.com/posts/mobile-web-acceleration/ |
| 09:24 | <othermaciej> | all we need is a way to embed arbitrary markup in English |
| 09:24 | <othermaciej> | then authors can use RDFa to clearly express their semantics |
| 09:24 | <othermaciej> | just think of the accessibility benefits of defining the specific sense of homophones |
| 09:24 | <Hixie> | do you have a concrete proposal for how to embed arbitrary markup in english? |
| 09:25 | <Pavlov> | adjectives and adverbs |
| 09:25 | <hsivonen> | I thought embedding French and Latin in English is already supported. |
| 09:25 | <hsivonen> | does it need to support all vocabularies? |
| 09:25 | <Pavlov> | depends on the word and politics |
| 09:26 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: just start with the characters <xml> and end with </xml> |
| 09:26 | <othermaciej> | this should avoid legacy embedding problems, since XML Expert 1.0 already will parse such content as XML |
| 09:26 | <Hixie> | that's a great idea, unfortunately it isn't backwards compatible with legacy UAs |
| 09:26 | <Hixie> | nor is it compatible with legacy documents |
| 09:26 | <Pavlov> | Hixie: just make a new spec v1.0 that no one implements |
| 09:26 | <Hixie> | which already use the string "<xml>" sometimes unpaired |
| 09:27 | <Hixie> | and which would therefore cause entire documents to fail to render correctly |
| 09:27 | <Hixie> | Pavlov: :-P |
| 09:27 | <othermaciej> | you're just trying to be difficult because you hate clarity of meaning |
| 09:27 | <Hixie> | if that one was sent to public-html instead of whatwg, i'd just ignore it :-) |
| 09:28 | <Pavlov> | Hixie: the other option is just call it svg 2.0 |
| 09:29 | <Hixie> | Pavlov: yeah well so far my 1.0 specs (pingback) have been successful, my 2.0 specs (xbl) have gotten the response "we'll implement that _next_ year for sure!", and my 5.0 specs (html) have been reported to be leading to the end of civilisation as we know it |
| 09:31 | <Hixie> | Pavlov: so i prefer your 1.0 plan :-P |
| 09:49 | <hendry> | hsivonen: I'm registered for Xtech'08 btw. I had to do it by FAX as their registration system didn't work for me. :} |
| 09:55 | <othermaciej> | clearly no one here cares about semantics, I hope the Lojban2 working group hurries up with their critical work |
| 10:40 | <annevk> | I didn't even know Acid3 was testing "(bogus), all" |
| 10:40 | <annevk> | It is indeed pretty clear that that matches in a recent media query draft... |
| 10:46 | <Hixie> | well |
| 10:46 | <Hixie> | i just beat my own record |
| 10:46 | <Hixie> | and sent an e-mail out that was 3363 lines long |
| 10:47 | <takkaria> | oo, the issues graph should look good after that |
| 10:50 | <Hixie> | 138KB e-mail |
| 10:50 | <Hixie> | of PURE TEXT |
| 10:50 | <annevk> | 4 times :p |
| 10:51 | <annevk> | actually, 5 I guess |
| 10:51 | <Hixie> | probably, i bcc'ed you |
| 10:51 | <Hixie> | along with about half the population of the earth |
| 10:51 | <takkaria> | that would be an insane amount of bandwidth to consume |
| 10:52 | <takkaria> | I estimate ~376PB |
| 10:53 | <Hixie> | multicast, baby |
| 10:53 | <takkaria> | :) |
| 10:53 | annevk | wonders when spec editors will get their own youtube channels to announce changes to the world |
| 10:54 | <Hixie> | i've considered it for the acid3 test |
| 10:54 | <Hixie> | but i'm too lazy |
| 10:59 | <Hixie> | 620 messages expunged from folder "INBOX.input-for-whatwg-html-parsing-rules-namespaces-discussion" |
| 10:59 | <Hixie> | the graph will indeed look nice tomorrow |
| 11:14 | <annevk> | Hmm, I just realized the proposal does not allow for common gradient definitions in the head element... |
| 11:23 | <met_> | annevk, just testing wf2 from prefiling in Opera. And it doen's work for me. There is message in console "Will not load form seed data from other domains." Do you know about some bug there? |
| 11:25 | <annevk> | and you're trying to do it same-origin? |
| 11:25 | <met_> | yes, see example http://tmp.met.cz/wf2/form.html |
| 11:26 | <annevk> | no, please file a bug |
| 11:26 | <annevk> | I have never really tested that part of WF2 because it required some server-side stuff to set up. :( |
| 11:27 | <met_> | I have triet it for some of my HTML5 presentation and was suprised it doesn't work |
| 11:27 | <met_> | i am not familiar with opera bugreporting, assuming this is the right place https://bugs.opera.com/wizard/ |
| 11:28 | <met_> | wonder no http://bugzilla.opera.com/ 8-) |
| 11:28 | <annevk> | yeah, the former :) |
| 11:54 | <zcorpan_> | Hixie: in your reply to Tue, 20 Jun 2006, Robert O'Callahan, it seems you didn't end the sentence: "This is one reason I have " |
| 11:55 | <jruderman> | that sounds like a perfectly good garden-path sentence |
| 11:55 | <jruderman> | meaning something like "i have at least one reason. this is one of them." |
| 11:55 | <zcorpan_> | :) |
| 11:58 | <zcorpan_> | btw, innerHTML doesn't support the foreign lands |
| 11:58 | <zcorpan_> | or does it? |
| 11:58 | <zcorpan_> | not svg camelcase certainly |
| 11:59 | <annevk> | no? |
| 11:59 | <zcorpan_> | uh |
| 11:59 | <zcorpan_> | it does |
| 11:59 | <annevk> | there is one bug, EOF |
| 11:59 | annevk | e-mails |
| 12:01 | <annevk> | EOF should probably be handled like end tags |
| 12:02 | zcorpan_ | doesn't follow what the problem is |
| 12:02 | <annevk> | every insertion mode needs to deal with EOF nowadays |
| 12:05 | <zcorpan_> | ah |
| 12:11 | <annevk> | zcorpan_, btw, http://wiki.html5.org/ works now |
| 12:16 | <zcorpan_> | annevk: cool |
| 12:16 | zcorpan_ | reads "If anyone is actually reading this 3363 line e-mail, I'm impressed. Please do let me know that you read this." |
| 12:17 | <zcorpan_> | Hixie: i'm reading it :P |
| 12:40 | <hsivonen> | I read it. |
| 12:41 | annevk | didn't |
| 12:42 | <annevk> | hsivonen, have you already complained about xml:id in MathML 3? |
| 12:43 | <hsivonen> | annevk: I think I haven't. Please do complain so I don't have to. |
| 12:43 | <annevk> | It seems xml:id in SVG 1.2 and MathML 3.0 is sort of problematic for HTML 5 |
| 12:44 | <hsivonen> | yeah |
| 12:46 | <shepazu> | http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/painting.html#StrokeDasharrayProperty |
| 12:47 | <annevk> | shepazu, ww? |
| 12:47 | <shepazu> | yup, thanks |
| 12:50 | <Philip`> | Could someone please implement <math contenteditable>? |
| 12:52 | <Philip`> | (I won't dare ask for <svg contenteditable>) |
| 12:54 | <annevk> | Yeah, we should check what global attributes that HTML, MathML, and SVG have make sense to "superglobalize". |
| 12:56 | <shepazu> | Philip`: I seem to recall someone doing that... maybe an experimental WebKit? |
| 12:57 | <othermaciej> | doing what? |
| 12:58 | <othermaciej> | it might be possible to make SVG editable but you'd only be able to edit the text |
| 12:58 | <shepazu> | right |
| 12:59 | <Philip`> | Just embed Inkscape |
| 12:59 | <annevk> | hsivonen, done (MathML and xml:id thingie) |
| 13:00 | <hsivonen> | annevk: thanks |
| 13:03 | <Lachy> | annevk, wiki.html5.org needs a better logo |
| 13:04 | <annevk> | yes, donations accepted :) |
| 13:05 | <Lachy> | I'll see if I can find someone with some design skills |
| 13:05 | <annevk> | (though it does get the transparency right where the WHATWG logo/favicon doesn't, imo) |
| 13:13 | <Philip`> | Given the size of Hixie's email, I'm glad we've got past the stage of quoting somebody and adding "+1" |
| 13:31 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: +1 |
| 13:35 | <Philip`> | Hixie: You wrote "I recommend that the MathML community make available large, comprehensive, high-quality test suites for presentational MathML, [unexpected end of paragraph]" |
| 13:36 | <Philip`> | Also it doesn't seem true to say that only one (browser) vendor supports MathML, since some Opera releases do (even though its support is pretty rubbish) |
| 13:39 | <Philip`> | (Also it makes it sound like the only vendors that exist (or that matter) are browser vendors, which some other vendors would disagree with) |
| 13:41 | gsnedders | notes being in here isn't helping his school work |
| 13:41 | <gsnedders> | But I'd probably just find another way to procrastinate if I wasn't here. |
| 13:42 | <Philip`> | It's not like anything is actually happening in here, so it shouldn't be that distracting |
| 13:43 | <Lachy> | annevk, I found a friend who may be willing to make a better logo for the wiki. He's going to think about it and should send me a few ideas later |
| 13:44 | <zcorpan_> | i think the wiki needs content -- not a logo |
| 13:45 | gsnedders | suggests <http://stuff.gsnedders.com/me/full.jpg>; as a logo :P |
| 13:47 | <gsnedders> | or is that too hideous? |
| 13:47 | <annevk> | zcorpan_, with good logos content will come, don't you know? :) |
| 14:04 | <zcorpan_> | annevk: oh, carry on then :) |
| 14:09 | <Philip`> | Hixie: "I'm not sure what an immediate-mode math API would look like!" - I think it could look like "var x = 1 + 1; var y = Math.pow(x, 2);" |
| 14:09 | <Philip`> | although I suppose that's not so useful if you want an immediate-mode math rendering API instead |
| 14:32 | <annevk> | http://www.w3.org/2008/03/31-aria-math-minutes.html |
| 14:32 | <annevk> | was that already posted here? it seems to be a public resource |
| 15:49 | <Philip`> | (Hixie: I read your whole email too :-) ) |
| 16:14 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: why do the ack have a "being edited right now" note? |
| 16:15 | <gsnedders> | is that really worthwhile having> |
| 16:15 | <gsnedders> | s/>/?/ |
| 17:56 | <Hixie> | oops. So in my 3000 line e-mail, s/This is one reason I have $//, and s/for presentational MathML,$/for presentational MathML./ |
| 17:56 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: i just use that section to check the being edited mode works :-) |
| 17:56 | <gsnedders> | ah :) |
| 19:01 | <Hixie> | well i guess for all the complaining about html5, we're still doing better than ooxml |
| 19:01 | <Hixie> | at least we haven't had people actually protesting in the streets |
| 19:04 | <andersca> | lo |
| 19:04 | <andersca> | l |
| 19:16 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: HTML5 sux. 2 > 5. |
| 20:27 | <Philip`> | Someone should make a validator that warns you if it looks like you've got double-encoded UTF-8 in your document |
| 20:27 | <Philip`> | (since I noticed http://www.csseleven.com/ has that problem) |
| 20:45 | <Hixie> | you mean UTF-8 interpreted as ISO-8859-1 and reencoded as UTF-8? |
| 20:48 | <annevk> | finally, new charter for WebAPI/WebApps group |
| 21:02 | <Philip`> | Hixie: Yes |
| 21:03 | <Hixie> | tell hsivonen :-) |
| 21:03 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: You should make a validator that warns you if it looks like you've got double-encoded UTF-8 in your document :-) |
| 21:04 | <Philip`> | (It seems like not an uncommon problem, including from the kind of people who validate their pages) |
| 21:04 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: good idea |
| 21:05 | <hsivonen> | http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=151 |
| 21:06 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: Thanks :-) |
| 21:15 | <annevk> | ah, I encountered http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=48 earlier today :) |
| 21:15 | <annevk> | it's nice that all open bugs fit on one page |
| 21:16 | <annevk> | hsivonen, isn't 22 fixed? |
| 21:17 | <Philip`> | Web pages can be infinitely long, so that isn't a particularly impressive property :-p |
| 21:20 | <hsivonen> | annevk: yes, 22 is fixed. Thanks. |
| 21:22 | <annevk> | Philip`, blah, it's nice there's only 72 bugs |
| 21:22 | jgraham | notes that practical limitations prevent webpages being infinitely long |
| 21:25 | Philip` | wonders what those practical limitations are |
| 21:27 | <Philip`> | You could do e.g. 'print "<body>"; print "<script>document.body.removeChild(document.body.firstChild)</script>" while 1' and the browser shouldn't ever run out of memory |
| 22:31 | <Hixie> | haha, i just worked out why the src="KDE%20Light%20desktop.png" screenshot is the one i used as the example of a screenshot in the spec |
| 22:31 | <Hixie> | it's the example screenshot used on the wikipedia page for "Screenshot" which is the first google hit for the word "Screenshot" |
| 22:39 | <Philip`> | http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/04/10/html-and-dom-standards-compliance-in-ie8-beta-1.aspx |
| 22:40 | <annevk> | Hixie, http://www.whatwg.org/issues/data.html seems broken (besides the bug on using clientX/Y rather than pageX/Y |
| 22:41 | <hsivonen> | there's blank line in the raw data |
| 22:41 | <annevk> | yeah |
| 22:41 | Philip` | notices that the blog post uses the same "content attribute" and "DOM attribute" terminology as HTML5 |
| 22:42 | <Hixie> | oops |
| 22:44 | <hsivonen> | wow. all-time low since the start of the graph |
| 22:46 | <jgraham> | Philip`: You couldn't keep the computer running for ever |
| 22:55 | <Philip`> | jgraham: I'm not sure why that's relevant - you can't count integers forever but that doesn't mean there isn't an infinitely long list of them |
| 23:00 | <jgraham> | Philip`: However you can't _have_ an infinitely long list of integers, you can only conceive of one. |
| 23:01 | <Philip`> | jgraham: I can't _have_ a single integer either - it's only ever a concept :-) |
| 23:01 | <jgraham> | Right so not very relevant to webpages which you can have :) |
| 23:02 | <Hixie> | "1..oo" is an infinitely long list of integers |
| 23:04 | <Philip`> | Web pages are hugely abstracted from physical reality (e.g. silicon and electrons) so they're about the same situation as integers |
| 23:04 | <othermaciej> | you can have a representation of an integer |
| 23:05 | <Philip`> | I can have a representation of an infinite list of integers too, so there's still no difference |
| 23:06 | <Hixie> | ok i must not bid you all farewell |
| 23:06 | <Hixie> | for i am about to be roasted on a spit by the accessibility crowd |
| 23:07 | <Hixie> | er, must now |
| 23:07 | annevk | looks at web-apps-tracker |
| 23:09 | <Hixie> | (i closed the alt text issue, issue-31) |
| 23:09 | jgraham | is surprised to discover he argued for optional alt in 2005 |
| 23:10 | <Hixie> | surprised in a good way or a bad way? :-) |
| 23:11 | <jgraham> | In a good way :) |
| 23:11 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 23:12 | <jgraham> | I had just totally forgotten that thread whereas usually when I read old emails I wrote I at-least remember writing them |
| 23:13 | <Philip`> | "I'm not sure what else we can do short of just making it non-conforming to create bulk-upload image hosting sites or write documents that contain inkblot tests." - you could say something like "The alt attribute is required. If there is no suitable alternative text, then the alt attribute should be set to some other text that gives an indication of the image's purpose, such as its name (e.g. 'Rorschach test #19')." |
| 23:13 | <Hixie> | alt="Photo" ? |
| 23:13 | <Hixie> | that's less useful than no alt at all |
| 23:13 | <Hixie> | at least with no alt the UA can know to do something clever if it can |
| 23:14 | <Hixie> | like, in future, analyse the image or provide a physical representation of it |
| 23:14 | <Hixie> | in some sort of braille fashion |
| 23:14 | <Hixie> | but yeah, i guess you could |
| 23:15 | <Philip`> | It's less useful in a small number of cases, and it has the cost of preventing validators from saying missing alt is an error (hence fewer authors will use alt, because a reasonable number of authors do use validators and write error-free pages) |
| 23:15 | <Philip`> | If the UA is capable of doing something clever, it should always do that clever thing, not only in the cases where alt is missing |
| 23:15 | <gavin_> | having a useless alt present doesn't prevent UAs from doing something clever |
| 23:15 | <gavin_> | they could theoretically detect the uselessness |
| 23:15 | <Hixie> | true |
| 23:16 | <Philip`> | Detecting the usefulness of alt text doesn't seem any harder than analysing the image to create a textual representation of it |
| 23:16 | <Hixie> | personally i think that encouraging people to give useless alt text for a small set of images will make them think it's ok to give useless alt text for others |
| 23:16 | <Hixie> | but i agree that one could (and indeed many do) argue otherwise |
| 23:17 | <Philip`> | Then don't encourage them to ever give useless alt text, and instead let them decide themselves to give useless alt text because they can't do anything better |
| 23:18 | <othermaciej> | I think the biggest problem is tools, not people |
| 23:19 | <othermaciej> | in the case of end-user created content, it is unreasonable to force the tool to have mandatory UI for entering alt |
| 23:19 | <othermaciej> | in practice the tools then have no options but either missing or useless alt |
| 23:24 | <Hixie> | Philip`: one concern with the alt you suggest is that it would probably end up being redundant with other text in the same part of hte document, which is very annoying to AT users |
| 23:24 | <Hixie> | bbiab |
| 23:26 | <Philip`> | Have AT users said that it's "very annoying"? I'd guess they have enough problems that a little bit of repetition would hardly matter, compared to e.g. <a href><img src alt=""></a> which would be very annoying if it made the link invisible; but I don't know how these things affect people in practice |
| 23:33 | <Philip`> | (...or compared to e.g. <a href=about.html><img src=button0.png></a> <a href=help.html><img src=button1.png></a> which is more relevant since that would happen more if people aren't told to add alt) |
