| 00:17 | <Hixie> | Philip`: repetition was one of the most annoying things i ran into when trying to use ATs |
| 00:28 | <annevk> | Hixie, context.lineTo in the Issues Graph page throws NOT_SUPPORTED_ERR in Opera and in Firefox it seems to make the page really slow... |
| 00:29 | <Hixie> | ? |
| 00:29 | <Hixie> | why? |
| 00:29 | <annevk> | probably infinite value or something |
| 00:29 | <annevk> | it's "context.lineTo(lines[i].date, lines[i].count);" |
| 00:31 | <annevk> | also, if you're looking at it, replace clientX/Y with pageX/Y |
| 00:32 | <Hixie> | why would that be infinite |
| 00:33 | <annevk> | not sure, but the page is not usable in a Firefox nightly nor in an Opera nightly and previously it was in both... |
| 00:33 | <Hixie> | you tried reloading since i removed the blank line in the csv file? |
| 00:34 | <annevk> | yes |
| 00:35 | <annevk> | (would be so nice if i could just make a video of my screen and share it with the world instantly to demonstrate how it runs) |
| 00:35 | <Hixie> | wfm in firefox |
| 00:35 | <Philip`> | It works for me in an Opera 9.5 |
| 00:36 | <Hixie> | works better than safari instead, because safari has some weird painting/color issue with putImageData |
| 00:36 | <Philip`> | annevk: Put a heavy weight on your printscreen key |
| 00:36 | <annevk> | maybe I should get a newer Opera build... |
| 00:37 | Philip` | suggests that putImageData isn't necessarily great for performance, particularly in Firefox |
| 00:37 | <Hixie> | i wasn't targetting real browsers |
| 00:37 | <Hixie> | i was targetting the spec |
| 00:38 | <Philip`> | That's a silly way to write web pages :-p |
| 00:38 | <Hixie> | it's the only way i know how :-P |
| 00:38 | <annevk> | why? that way you don't have to test and only have to write it instead of write refresh write etc. |
| 00:38 | <Philip`> | Clearly you are out of touch with real web developers |
| 00:39 | <Philip`> | I imagine it'd be better to have two canvases, with the static graph in the background one and the UI in the foreground one |
| 00:40 | <Hixie> | Philip`: right now, whatever is in the page now is what is best, since it works and requires 0 work to get working :-) |
| 00:40 | <annevk> | ok, works fine in Opera nightlies |
| 00:41 | <Philip`> | Also it would be nice to have text labels on the graph - I'd suggest using mozDrawText, since someone hasn't added a standard way of doing text :-) |
| 00:42 | <Hixie> | yeah there's a comment to that effect in the source |
| 00:42 | <annevk> | "XXX" |
| 00:42 | <Hixie> | where do people find the time to have these w3c telecons, sheesh |
| 00:43 | <annevk> | it's midnight :) |
| 00:43 | <Philip`> | Sadly no browser has yet implemented a feature which can execute the intent of comments :-( |
| 00:44 | <othermaciej> | it's not that hard to attend a lot of telecons if you have no other significant work to do |
| 00:45 | <Hixie> | annevk: i mean doing all the minutes, making sure the regrets are done, waiting for people to make the call, etc |
| 00:46 | <Hixie> | hey does anyone know which part of DOM Bindings defines the argument conversions? |
| 00:46 | <Hixie> | e.g. if I pass a Number to a method expecting unsigned long |
| 00:46 | <Hixie> | what happens? |
| 00:47 | <annevk> | hmm, so Number does not accept strings indeed, "50%" throws in Firefox and is silently ignored in Opera |
| 00:47 | Philip` | has found more time in which to kill about six hundred imaginary people from a military helicopter and to raise nine million dollars than it would take for a telecon, so time is not really a problem (but motivation is :-) ) |
| 00:47 | <Hixie> | playing games relaxes |
| 00:47 | <Hixie> | telecons don't :-P |
| 00:47 | <Hixie> | relaxing is a productive use of time |
| 00:47 | <Hixie> | as it increases the productivity of future time |
| 00:48 | <Philip`> | That would only work if I actually did something productive after relaxing, instead of either relaxing more or going to bed |
| 00:48 | <Hixie> | future time can come after sleep |
| 00:49 | <Philip`> | But then I just play games the next day too :-p |
| 00:50 | <annevk> | and find time to tell us about it :) |
| 00:50 | MikeSmith | wholeheartedly supports having less telcons and more relaxation... was on telcons for more than 3 hours yesterday |
| 00:50 | annevk | hasn't played games in a while, apart from a failed attempt at a game of Risk today (the one that doesn't involve a computer screen) |
| 00:50 | takkaria | is pedantic: s/less/fewer/ |
| 00:51 | <Hixie> | Philip`: :-P |
| 00:52 | <MikeSmith> | in my case, I find the time for calls by mostly not having any choice :) |
| 00:52 | MikeSmith | remembers the slogan from the 60s, What if they had a war and nobody came? |
| 00:53 | <Philip`> | That would never happen - the journalists and TV reporters would always turn up |
| 00:54 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 00:54 | <jmb> | well, they've gotta have /something/ to report on |
| 00:54 | MikeSmith | considers forging a doctor's not about ear-problems-can't-use-telephone and bringing it to the W3C school nurse |
| 00:55 | <MikeSmith> | nurse: MikeSmith, this note is written in crayon |
| 00:55 | <MikeSmith> | MikeSmith: that's odd... must have been all that my doctor had around at the time |
| 00:56 | MikeSmith | wonders why Konqueror can't open plain-text files itself |
| 00:56 | <Philip`> | How do people with hearing disabilities attend W3C telcons? |
| 00:56 | <Hixie> | probably the same way i do |
| 00:56 | <Philip`> | That sounds quite non-accessible if they have no choice |
| 00:57 | <Hixie> | it's not that accessible even if you do |
| 00:58 | <heyadayo> | Hello |
| 00:59 | <Philip`> | Hello |
| 01:00 | <heyadayo> | Does Opera 9's implementation of "Section 6.2 (Server-sent DOM events)" differ from the current version of the specification? |
| 01:01 | <Philip`> | Opera 9.2, or 9.5? |
| 01:01 | Philip` | doesn't know the answer anyway |
| 01:03 | <heyadayo> | Philip`, 9.5, I suppose |
| 01:03 | <annevk> | yes |
| 01:04 | <annevk> | it does |
| 01:04 | <Philip`> | Substantially? |
| 01:04 | <annevk> | yes, we support a different mime type and format |
| 01:04 | <annevk> | i don't think we'll change that before release |
| 01:05 | <Hixie> | heycam: what happens if i call a method with too few arguments? 4.2.4. Operations sets up "arity" to handle this, but step 7 says to call the method with the given arguments without looking at arity. |
| 01:07 | <Hixie> | heycam: also, is there some way to declare a method without making it visible to JS? (in particular, i may want a [Stringifies] method that isn't itself visible, since the method becomes toString. Same with the [NameGetter, [NameSetter], and [Delete] operations i mentioned the other day -- i may want them to not be themselves visible.) |
| 01:07 | <Hixie> | let me know if i should send mail about any of these |
| 01:19 | <Hixie> | wow, the w3c continues to have extreme optimism in release planning |
| 01:19 | <Hixie> | http://www.w3.org/2007/12/WebApps-Charter-2007 |
| 01:20 | <dglazkov> | I am a pretty flower |
| 01:26 | <takkaria> | 16 specs to be delivered in under two years, nice |
| 01:27 | <Philip`> | That's the power of parallelism |
| 01:32 | <MikeSmith> | takkaria, one of those specs could have your name on it |
| 01:33 | <Philip`> | Is the editor allowed to rename the spec after themselves? |
| 01:33 | <MikeSmith> | if it's a good editor, hell yeah |
| 01:33 | <MikeSmith> | I'm all for that |
| 01:33 | <Philip`> | Scientists get things named after them all the time, and spec editors don't deserve any less |
| 01:33 | <takkaria> | "Andrew Sidwell's Geolocation API", nice |
| 01:34 | <MikeSmith> | you can add adjectives if you want also |
| 01:34 | <MikeSmith> | "Andrew Sidwell's Bitchin' Geolocation API" |
| 01:34 | <takkaria> | I'd have Fantabuloso I think |
| 01:35 | <takkaria> | I would love to help these things but I have my own open-source game to do read forums+newsgroups for, and over summer I'll be writing an html5 parser in C |
| 01:36 | <MikeSmith> | takkaria, yeah, if you do write that html5 parser in C that would be a great thing |
| 01:36 | Philip` | needs to get back to implementing parsing, so he can have the first C HTML5 parser before everyone else and their pet tigers come along with ones |
| 01:36 | <takkaria> | well, co-writing, really, as not to mislabel myself as the only person who's working on it |
| 01:36 | <MikeSmith> | competition good |
| 01:37 | <MikeSmith> | co-writing not always good |
| 01:37 | <Philip`> | Cow-righting is always good, though |
| 01:37 | <takkaria> | is that the opposite of cow-tipping? |
| 01:38 | <Philip`> | Yes - you find a cow that is sleeping lying down, and then push it upright before it has woken up and noticed |
| 01:39 | <Philip`> | They get very confused when you do that |
| 01:39 | <takkaria> | I could imagine |
| 01:43 | <MikeSmith> | btw, if anybody has comments on that WebApps draft charter that you feel compelled to have on record, the place to post them is public-new-work⊙wo |
| 01:43 | <MikeSmith> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-new-work/2008Apr/0003.html |
| 01:44 | <MikeSmith> | not that we want to encourage every jomoke off the street to stroll in and comment on charters |
| 01:45 | <MikeSmith> | but I think people here are not just jomokes off the street |
| 01:45 | <MikeSmith> | jomokes sitting in from on computers at home or at work, yeah |
| 01:45 | <MikeSmith> | but that's a different type of jomoke |
| 02:09 | MikeSmith | sees change in internal renaming of some Webkit stuff to more closely align with HTML5 wording |
| 02:09 | <MikeSmith> | http://trac.webkit.org/projects/webkit/changeset/31793 |
| 02:10 | <MikeSmith> | [[ |
| 02:10 | <MikeSmith> | The name "OriginStorage" never felt right to a few of us. The HTML5 spec refers to our |
| 02:10 | <MikeSmith> | concept of "OriginStorage" as a "storage area", which makes more sense here. |
| 02:10 | <MikeSmith> | This patch is basically: |
| 02:10 | <MikeSmith> | s/OriginStorage/StorageArea/ |
| 02:10 | <MikeSmith> | ]] |
| 02:12 | <heyadayo> | annevk, Is there a page that details the exact specification for Opera's version of SSE, or a page that describes the differences between opera and the spec? |
| 08:35 | <heycam> | [ot] does anyone know if it's possible to change the colour palette that os x's terminal uses? |
| 08:35 | <heycam> | the dark blue on black (from coloured ls output) is horrible to read |
| 08:50 | <zcorpan_> | Hixie: <img src="fluffy.jpg" alt="Fluffy, my cat, tends to keep itself busy."> -- can one understand from the image that the cat's name is Fluffy? |
| 08:53 | <virtuelv> | zcorpan_: wouldn't that depend on what fluffy.jpg actually contains? |
| 08:54 | <zcorpan_> | virtuelv: yes |
| 08:54 | <virtuelv> | But I digress -- as an example, I would probably drop the name myself |
| 08:56 | <virtuelv> | Is it possible to both mourn and celebrate the death of the rev attribute? |
| 08:57 | <zcorpan_> | why mourn? |
| 08:57 | <zcorpan_> | and why celebrate? :P |
| 08:57 | <virtuelv> | celebrate because it was never used |
| 08:57 | <virtuelv> | mourn because there are situations where confirming relationships between two links is useful |
| 08:58 | <virtuelv> | s/links/resources/ |
| 09:00 | <virtuelv> | and I'm celebrating since 'rel' is actually getting useful too |
| 10:21 | <annevk> | heyadayo, older version of the HTML5 draft, might even be the one on w3.org/TR/html5/ |
| 10:47 | <Lachy> | Hixie, can you make that excessively long entity table in the spec be presented in multiple columns? |
| 10:50 | <annevk> | that's in the style sheet |
| 10:51 | <annevk> | though it might only work in WebKit (or maybe not, haven't tested) |
| 10:57 | <Lachy> | From the spec: "Specifications intended for user agents must not define these [data-*] attributes to have any meaningful values. " - I wonder if that will stop the microformats community defining future microformats based on those attributes |
| 11:00 | <annevk> | there's an open issue on that |
| 11:03 | <Lachy> | yeah, I just saw that |
| 11:09 | <hsivonen> | I used three-column CSS for printing even the previous shorter entity table |
| 11:12 | <hsivonen> | why does the IETF specify Base16 and Base32? |
| 11:17 | <BenMillard> | hisivonen, just read your e-mails CC'ed to HTMLWG about ARIA in HTML5 integration |
| 11:18 | <BenMillard> | I'm glad there's someone as level-headed as you saying what needs to be said about making ARIA viable |
| 11:19 | <hsivonen> | BenMillard: I'm glad you agree that it needs to be said |
| 12:03 | <zcorpan_> | hsivonen: i'm glad you're doing this, too, fwiw |
| 12:03 | <zcorpan_> | hsivonen: i have little time for aria stuff atm and you're better at expressing yourself than i am |
| 12:08 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: thanks |
| 12:09 | <annevk> | I got an offlist reply with a pointer to the xml:id spec (re: my e-mail on www-math)... |
| 12:16 | <BenMillard> | zcorpan_, how did those telecons go? |
| 12:17 | <BenMillard> | (you mentioned needing to attend 3 over MSN with me some time ago) |
| 12:20 | <zcorpan_> | BenMillard: i attended to 2 of them |
| 12:22 | <zcorpan_> | one was with aaronlev and several people from microsoft discussing http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/ARIA_User_Agent_Implementors_Guide (which i haven't had time to properly review yet) |
| 12:25 | <Lachy> | annevk, this is one of the ideas a friend of mine came up with for the html5.org logo. He's going to come up with some other, perhaps better ideas though. |
| 12:25 | <Lachy> | http://macos.dk/HTML5-logo.png http://macos.dk/HTML5-logo-BW.png |
| 12:25 | <Lachy> | I meant wiki.html5.org |
| 12:28 | <hsivonen> | hmm. so when a data uri uses base64, spaces and other random stuff isn't allowed, even though line breaks are allowed in email. Right? |
| 12:30 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: as far as I can see it is undefined |
| 12:31 | <BenMillard> | zcorpan_, thanks. I'm off for lunch, bye all. |
| 12:32 | <BenMillard> | (also to avoid my PC getting killed by the thunderstorm here) |
| 12:32 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: the base64 rfc says prohibited unless allowed |
| 12:32 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: but the data URI scheme one doesn't seem to normatively cite it |
| 12:33 | <hsivonen> | yay specs! |
| 12:33 | <hsivonen> | also, the base64 rfc defines a different base64url encoding |
| 12:33 | <hsivonen> | but data uris don't use that one |
| 12:35 | <gsnedders> | standards suck. |
| 12:48 | <annevk> | Lachy, I think we need a logo that indicates it's about authoring in some way... maybe something with HTML syntax... |
| 12:52 | Philip` | doesn't think logos need to present any information, they just need to look nice and be recognisable |
| 12:58 | <hsivonen> | looks like the alt thing is going to be a rathole again... |
| 12:58 | <hsivonen> | the reason why I care is that it is effectively about changing the way the product I develop works |
| 12:59 | <hsivonen> | and I think the change would be bad for the relationship between the product I develop and its users |
| 12:59 | <annevk> | and its users' users |
| 13:00 | <hsivonen> | yeah |
| 13:12 | <hsivonen> | data URIs should always be URIs, not IRIs, right? |
| 13:13 | <hsivonen> | so it would be wrong to have non-ASCII in a data URI and expect it to get UTF-8-URIfied before data URI decoding, right? |
| 13:13 | <Lachy> | annevk, yeah, that's what I suggested to him |
| 13:16 | <hsivonen> | looks like implementations indeed URIfy IRIs first... |
| 13:18 | <hsivonen> | good times. there's even one more layer of juggling between characters and bytes in data uris |
| 13:20 | <hsivonen> | if I start responding to the alt thread now, I never get any software written |
| 13:21 | hsivonen | keeps writing data URI support |
| 13:21 | <annevk> | there's no rush in the alt thread, that'll be an open issue until 2020 :) |
| 13:21 | <annevk> | or inf time |
| 13:34 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I think this is invalid http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/data/002.html (linebreak in URI) Is there something I'm missing? |
| 13:39 | <hsivonen> | cool http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/data/006.html exposes an internal bug in V.nu |
| 13:39 | <MikeSmith> | As far as Steven Faulkner's most recent message, about how AT software is supposed to reliably determine the difference between a purely decorative image and critical content |
| 13:40 | <MikeSmith> | maybe one possible answer is that AT software needs to be made a lot smarter |
| 13:41 | <MikeSmith> | to be able to programatically make some kind of determination |
| 13:42 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: running a DCT / Fourier Transform on the image and checking for spikes should be a fairly implementable way of telling if an image is photo-like or iconic |
| 13:42 | <MikeSmith> | yeah, I can think of quite a lot of other ways also |
| 13:43 | <MikeSmith> | their is plenty of existing work been done in that area for all kinds of use cases |
| 13:43 | <MikeSmith> | s/their/there/ |
| 13:43 | <annevk> | The main flaw in his argument is that you'll have that problem no matter what. |
| 13:44 | <jmb> | there was a mildly interesting poster at the ASSETS conference last year which was about using some kind of statistical pattern recognition to guess the content of images and generate vaguely sane alt text from it |
| 13:46 | <MikeSmith> | hmm, I see that Steven does also say, "Given that these two images could be the same..." but used for different purposes in the same content. |
| 13:46 | <MikeSmith> | same exact image, used in one part for decorative purpose, in another part as "critical content" |
| 13:46 | <MikeSmith> | that seems like a bit of stretch |
| 13:47 | <MikeSmith> | would wonder if there are in fact in actual examples of an image used in such a way |
| 13:47 | <MikeSmith> | but I guess he intends that part to deflect the argument about doing pattern recognition or such on the image |
| 13:48 | <jmb> | well, requiring tools to do alt="" when there's no available alternative content won't help that case, either |
| 13:49 | <MikeSmith> | nope |
| 13:50 | <MikeSmith> | and the answer anyways is that the AT software could do some analysis of the placement of the images in the content, their relationship to surrounding content |
| 13:50 | <MikeSmith> | I guess |
| 13:51 | <MikeSmith> | this somewhat reminds me of the guidelines for authoring content intended for viewing on mobile devices |
| 13:52 | <MikeSmith> | guidelines that suggest that authors do all kinds of extra work to make their content usable in that context |
| 13:52 | <MikeSmith> | when the better solution is to just make the mobile browsers smarter |
| 13:53 | <jmb> | tbh, I can't foresee that any amount of MUST in the spec will actually compel authors to do anything |
| 13:53 | <MikeSmith> | jmb, they know that, actually |
| 13:54 | <jmb> | ok |
| 13:58 | <MikeSmith> | I think a big part of this is just a desire to keep the rule as simple and easy to evaluate as possible |
| 13:59 | <MikeSmith> | so it can be put into a checkbox |
| 14:00 | <Lachy> | one of the problems with the alt text thread seems to be that no-one has clearly defined what they would be best for assistive technology to output in the various cases of missing alt text, and so the proposed solutions can't really evaluated |
| 14:02 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy, seems like what could possibly be best for that AT software to output is the results of it doing some kind of image analysis like what jmb and hsivonen |
| 14:03 | <MikeSmith> | so if that image analysis determines it's decorative content, it outputs nothing |
| 14:03 | <Lachy> | e.g. it's been stated that we should distinguish between decorative images, and non-decorative images without alt text |
| 14:03 | <Lachy> | but no-one has clearly stated how the user should be informed of that distinction |
| 14:06 | <Lachy> | outputting nothing for decorative images is ok. But what to output for non-decorative images without alt text is entirely unclear, and so any suggestion to do anything other than just omit the alt attribute isn't based on the desire to acheive a specific result |
| 14:07 | <Lachy> | just a desire to use validation as a feeble attempt force authors to think about putting alt text in |
| 14:08 | <jmb> | it's tricky, as any image categoriser is likely to generate false positives, which may be harmful. then again, outputting something may be better than outputting nothing at all. it's at this point that I'd be wanting to conduct a user study :) |
| 14:08 | <Lachy> | jmb, indeed. But what exactly is that "something"? |
| 14:08 | <Philip`> | Why is it a feeble attempt? alt is used far more than all the other optional accessibility features |
| 14:09 | <jmb> | Lachy: let me see if I can dig out the reference for that poster I saw. it may give some indication as to what's being done atm (admittedly in research labs rather than the real world ;) |
| 14:09 | <Lachy> | Philip`, alt has been required in HTML4 for years, but that in itself has only been mildly successful in encouraging average authors to use alt text. |
| 14:11 | <Philip`> | Lachy: It's used on about 50% of images, and at least once on about 80% of pages, which sounds pretty successful |
| 14:12 | <jmb> | Lachy: see http://pubs.iupr.org/DATA/2007-IUPR-25Jul_1615.pdf |
| 14:12 | <Lachy> | Those stats don't tell you anything about how often it gets used for anything useful/accurate, or unuseful/inaccurate |
| 14:15 | <annevk> | jmb, the only problem with that is that they're suggesting to solve it on the wrong side, imo |
| 14:15 | <jmb> | annevk: sure |
| 14:15 | <jmb> | annevk: I'd agree with that |
| 14:15 | <annevk> | jmb, better to solve it with 5 vendors than billions of Web sites |
| 14:16 | <jmb> | mm |
| 14:17 | <annevk> | looks pretty cool btw |
| 14:18 | <Lachy> | why did the photo that looks like soccer players got tagged with "horses"? :-) |
| 14:19 | <jmb> | Lachy: false positive :) |
| 14:19 | <hsivonen> | (it quite annoys me that everyone else is supposed to jump because Freedom Scientific doesn't fix their software) |
| 14:21 | <Lachy> | jmb, does the analysis take the surrounding content into account when determining appropriate tags? e.g. If the surrounding content of that soccer image was talking about a soccer game, would that reduce the change of it being inccorectly labelled as "horses"? |
| 14:21 | <jmb> | Lachy: I've no idea, tbh |
| 14:22 | <jmb> | Lachy: it's not my field, so I didn't talk too much to the authors |
| 14:22 | <Lachy> | it's also interesting that it tags in english only, when the pictures show some foreign language text around the images |
| 14:23 | <annevk> | thinking about it more, those images illustrated are the ones I'd expect to not have alt text |
| 14:23 | <annevk> | they're just illustrating the text |
| 14:23 | <annevk> | (as in, I'd expect <img src=... alt> |
| 14:23 | <annevk> | ) |
| 14:23 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen, agree completely about Freedom Scientific |
| 14:25 | <MikeSmith> | seems like kind of a "conspicuously always absent from the party" case |
| 14:25 | <MikeSmith> | were they to actually show up and participate in discussions in public forums, I guess they realize that all manner of hell would likely rain down upon them |
| 14:26 | <MikeSmith> | so better to stay away |
| 14:30 | <Lachy> | I don't think they'd get hell raining down upon them any more than the IE team does. |
| 14:30 | <Lachy> | although, the IE team has had its fair share of abuse |
| 14:43 | <Lachy> | Hixie, from the spec: "A single image can have different appropriate alt text depending on the content." - Should that say "...depending on the context."? |
| 15:04 | gsnedders | starts work on RSS5 |
| 15:06 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: bad idea. rathole warning! |
| 15:06 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: It's probably worth defining how to parse, though. |
| 15:07 | <gsnedders> | As either RSS 2.0 is vague or useless in the real world. |
| 15:49 | <takkaria> | gsnedders: in practice, copying what the universal feed parser does will work |
| 15:50 | <gsnedders> | takkaria: that's possible to break. it's computationally impossible to parse RSS all the time per the author's intent (unless it becomes computationally possible to read the author's brain) |
| 15:51 | <takkaria> | yes, but in practice, the UFP works for pretty much everything :) |
| 15:51 | <gsnedders> | that's true :) |
| 15:52 | <takkaria> | and it has a massive testsuite, too |
| 15:52 | <gsnedders> | takkaria: I'm not going to get into efi |
| 15:52 | <gsnedders> | *defining… |
| 15:52 | <gsnedders> | … how to parse malformed XML |
| 15:53 | <gsnedders> | and the test suite is basically the same tests twice, just with one lot with a broken closing tag for the root element :P |
| 16:00 | <gsnedders> | hmmm… It appears that XML conformance isn't a requirement for XHTML5 |
| 16:07 | hsivonen | needs a design pattern for not losing the original exception when a 'finally' block throws a new one |
| 16:07 | <hsivonen> | creating a MultiException seems ugly |
| 17:24 | <Hixie> | Lachy: the entities table is already multicolumn, if there's some more incantations i can give, let me know |
| 17:27 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: data/002 is absolutely non-conforming, yes, but a combination of (future?) html5 error handling rules and uri error handling rules (possibly as yet unspecified and relying on legacy convention) requires that behaviour |
| 17:28 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: there are examples of images used in different ways with radically different alt text in the spec already |
| 17:41 | <heyadayo> | Is there a page that lists/links to all of the previous versions of the html5 spec? |
| 17:43 | <Hixie> | how do you mean, previous version? |
| 17:49 | <heyadayo> | I'm trying to find a specification of Opera's SSE and see how it differs from the latest html5 SSE specification |
| 19:11 | <Philip`> | heyadayo: http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker lists all the changes between versions, and http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps/ provides a way to access any version |
| 19:13 | <heyadayo> | Philip`, much appreciated |
| 19:14 | <Philip`> | (Those links are all listed in the top of the spec) |
| 19:17 | <heyadayo> | Philip`, to tell you the truth, I previously visited the web-apps-tracker, but was having trouble listing revisions before 1329, or searching for something specific, like "SSE" |
| 19:17 | <Philip`> | Oh, maybe it doesn't provide any way of seeing older messages... |
| 19:19 | <Philip`> | r1237 seems to have been the most recent significant changes |
| 19:21 | <Philip`> | heyadayo: http://philip.html5.org/misc/whatwg-svn-log.txt lists all the past revisions |
| 19:23 | <heyadayo> | Philip`, thanks |
| 19:25 | <heyadayo> | annevk, I'm browsing previous versions of the spec, but I'm having some difficulty finding docs related to opera's current SSE implementation. Whenever you get a chance, could you point me in the right direction? |
| 19:31 | <Philip`> | heyadayo: The most reliable information will come from just testing it and seeing what happens, since the documentation of the actual implementation isn't necessarily great (if it even exists) |
| 19:32 | <heyadayo> | we've got a working version of the opera SSE format in the orbited webserver, but we have an annoying decision to make |
| 19:33 | <heyadayo> | that is, we are implementing an SSE client for firefox and safari by doing raw parsing on an XHR object, and we were trying to decide if we should implement the html5 version of the spec, or the opera version |
| 19:33 | <heyadayo> | because ideally the server wouldn't only need to encode server sent events in a single manner |
| 19:33 | <heyadayo> | s/wouldn't/would |
| 19:35 | <Philip`> | I would assume Opera will change to match the HTML5 spec in the future (maybe in whatever comes after 9.5), and if any other browser implements it then they'll implement what the spec says, so it seems more useful in the long term to follow the spec |
| 19:36 | <Philip`> | (and to use the XHR emulation of SSE for Opera too) |
| 19:36 | <heyadayo> | yeah, thats what i was thinking, but i don't think its possible in opera to use XHR emulation because it doesn't give you partial access to the responseText |
| 19:37 | <Philip`> | There aren't enough Opera users for it to seem particularly worthwhile to write and maintain code for it that will never be useful in other browsers, if there is a single cross-browser alternative that could be used instead |
| 19:37 | <Philip`> | I'm not quite sure what you mean by "partial access" |
| 19:38 | <heyadayo> | i mean, if the response hasn't yet finished, you can still get the text from the partially completed response in safari or firefox, but as far as I can tell, you can't do that in opera |
| 19:40 | <Philip`> | Ah, right |
| 19:40 | <Philip`> | Sounds like a bug in Opera if that's the case |
| 19:41 | <heyadayo> | bug or no, i was hoping to wrangle a way of using the same wire protocol for server->browser events in all browsers |
| 19:42 | <heyadayo> | maybe for the time being i should just implement the standard for the other browsers, and have a special case for opera |
| 19:43 | <Philip`> | Hmm, it looks like Opera might be updating responseText but just not doing the readystatechange event as data is received |
| 19:44 | <Philip`> | (and so polling with setInterval could make it work) |
| 19:44 | <heyadayo> | i did a cursory test the other day, and i thought that it was waiting to trigger the readystate changes until after the response was complete, but also blocking access to responseText |
| 19:44 | <heyadayo> | yeah, exactly |
| 19:45 | <heyadayo> | we have to do polling with setInterval in IE on a hidden iframe (inside of an ActiveXObject('htmlfile') to get it working (without loading bars) in IE5+ |
| 19:45 | <heyadayo> | it wouldn't be the end of the word to use local polling in opera as well |
| 19:45 | <heyadayo> | s/word/world |
| 21:04 | <Hixie> | http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/38482/XDRorNot/results is funny |
| 21:04 | <BenMillard> | it won't let me see that |
| 21:04 | <Philip`_> | "Not allowed" :-( |
| 21:14 | <Hixie> | why are these people so anti-accessibility |
| 21:14 | <Hixie> | sheesh |
| 21:14 | <BenMillard> | which people? |
| 21:15 | <Hixie> | those who want page-critical images for which no alt text has been provided to be indistinguishable from text |
| 21:16 | <Lachy> | Hixie, I didn't realise -moz-column-* had a bug that prevented it working for tables, so I assumed you hadn't used it. It seems that only Safari renders the multicolumn entity table :-( |
| 21:16 | <Hixie> | Lachy: :-( |
| 21:19 | <Lachy> | The only way I can think of to address the issue now would be to manually split the table into 3 and use other css techniques to get the appearance of 3 cols. But that's an ugly hack I don't really like |
| 21:19 | <Hixie> | why 3? |
| 21:20 | <Lachy> | cause that's the number of columns Safari gives me at my normal browser window width. |
| 21:20 | <Hixie> | you have a small screen |
| 21:20 | <Lachy> | like I said, it's an ugly hack |
| 21:20 | <Lachy> | no, I just don't maximise browser windows |
| 21:20 | <Hixie> | ah |
| 21:20 | <Hixie> | i have two screens |
| 21:20 | <Lachy> | I have a 1920x1280 screen |
| 21:21 | <Hixie> | how i configure my ion tabs varies, but often one of my 24" displays just has a single fullscreen browser |
| 21:21 | <Lachy> | maybe I could find some greasemonkey script solution |
| 21:21 | <Hixie> | with my terminals on the other screen |
| 21:21 | <Hixie> | of course other times i look at the spec on my ipod |
| 21:21 | <Hixie> | so... |
| 21:22 | <Lachy> | yeah, I know. You showed me a screenshot of it once |
| 21:22 | <Philip`> | Don't use a table, just write a list of "'AElig;' = U+000C6; 'AElig' = U+000C6; ..." and let the browser's text-wrapping do its stuff |
| 22:03 | <Hixie> | so... |
| 22:03 | <Hixie> | <q> |
| 22:03 | <Hixie> | do we have a good solution for this train wreck? |
| 22:04 | <gsnedders> | Use cars instead while the tracks are blocked? |
| 22:12 | <andersca> | hey Hixie |
| 22:14 | <Hixie> | hi |
| 22:14 | <andersca> | about the "If the resource being loaded was not loaded from an application cache, but it was loaded using HTTP GET or equivalent" part of the cache selection algorithm |
| 22:15 | <andersca> | , step 2 |
| 22:16 | <andersca> | should the update process be invoked after the implicit resource has been fetched? |
| 22:18 | <Hixie> | i can't see any reason to require that that be a synchronous set of steps, no |
| 22:18 | <Hixie> | i would say it is ok to run all those steps in parallel |
| 22:18 | <Hixie> | but the spec does sort of imply it should be synchronous, so if you want it changed please to drop me a mail reminding me :-) |
| 22:21 | <andersca> | Hixie: although it would make more sense to do the update process after it's been fetched |
| 22:21 | <andersca> | Hixie: ...I think :) |
| 22:22 | <Hixie> | well, as noted the other day, the update process will be fixed to mention that any pending "fetchings", for lack of a better word, have to complete before any "cached" events fire |
| 22:22 | <andersca> | although in the case of step 2 the cache will already be up to date, right? |
| 22:28 | <Hixie> | step 2 invokes the updating process |
| 22:28 | <Hixie> | i don't understand what ou mean |
| 22:28 | <Hixie> | oh! |
| 22:28 | <Hixie> | i see what you're saying |
| 22:28 | <Hixie> | hm |
| 22:28 | <Hixie> | well |
| 22:28 | <Hixie> | there's no way to tell the difference, is there? |
| 22:29 | <Hixie> | i mean, between whether it's sync or async |
| 22:30 | <andersca> | I don't think so - you just need to try to avoid fetching the resource twice |
| 22:37 | <Hixie> | andersca: right |
| 22:37 | <Hixie> | andersca: in which case, it doesn't matter what the spec says really |
| 22:50 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Isn't that what most people do already (avoid using <q>)? |
| 22:50 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: peh. |
| 22:53 | <BenMillard> | hixie, stopping <q> from generating punctuation seems the most useful thing to do whilst being consistent with other HTML elements. authors are used to punctuating the content themselves (full stops at the end of <p> for example) |
| 22:55 | <jgraham> | Hey, if only we had a <possessive> element and a <contraction> element people could just write <possessive>its</possessive> and <contraction>its</contraction> and they would always get the apostrophe right! |
| 22:56 | <Hixie> | requiring punctuation seems fine by me |
| 22:56 | <Hixie> | should it be before or after <q>? |
| 22:56 | <jgraham> | (seriously, is there a good argument for making <q> generate punctuation?) |
| 22:57 | <jgraham> | Hixie: I would say inside but I doubt authors will get it right much either way |
| 22:57 | <BenMillard> | hixie, I'd say allow both. would it make a difference? |
| 22:57 | <jgraham> | (where much is "a significant enough percentage of the time that you could base a UA feature on it") |
| 22:58 | <Hixie> | well the one feature that would make sense is a set of pseudos in css to select the punctuation and replace it and/or hide it |
| 22:58 | <annevk> | Hixie, punctation should be inside <q> |
| 22:58 | <Hixie> | i'm thinking punctuation outside, personally |
| 22:58 | <Hixie> | why inside? |
| 22:58 | <billmason> | I recall once seeing an author suggest putting quotes outside the q, and using CSS to stop q from rendering its own quotes, all because the HTML4 spec says not to put quotes at the beginning/end of the q content. So they put it outside the content. |
| 22:58 | <annevk> | Hixie, compatible with ::before |
| 22:58 | <Hixie> | i mean, they're not part of the quote... |
| 22:58 | <billmason> | (fwiw....very convulted) |
| 22:58 | <Hixie> | annevk: ? |
| 22:59 | <Hixie> | billmason: hehe |
| 22:59 | <annevk> | oh, I wait, I'll guess I stay out of this debate |
| 22:59 | <annevk> | I'm using <q> all over the place so I rather not have it change... |
| 23:00 | <BenMillard> | hixie, strictly speaking the quote marks aren't part of the quoted text. unless you are quoting the use of punctuation from a different document or something |
| 23:00 | <Hixie> | annevk: hah |
| 23:00 | <Hixie> | BenMillard: right, that's why i figured outside |
| 23:00 | <jgraham> | Hixie: Just because it seems more natural to package up the whole bit of text that is the quotation inside a <q> rather than having the quotation marks clinging on to the outside like drowning swimmers |
| 23:01 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, exactly. authors might view <q> as meaning "a quotation" with punctuation and everything rather than "a strict wrapper for quoted text" |
| 23:02 | <BenMillard> | also, languages vary in where their punctuation goes with quotes |
| 23:02 | <jgraham> | (fwiw I think the quoting something with quotation marks case is distinguised by using two typographically different sets of quotation marks) |
| 23:03 | <jgraham> | BenMillard: Is that a problem |
| 23:03 | <jgraham> | ? |
| 23:03 | <gsnedders> | I'd rather not have it change, for the same reason as annevk fwiw |
| 23:03 | <Hixie> | i guess the only time this would matter is if you're trying to move the quote |
| 23:03 | <Hixie> | e.g. float it |
| 23:03 | <Hixie> | and in this case, you really want the quotes to go with it |
| 23:03 | <Hixie> | so inside makes sense |
| 23:04 | <BenMillard> | hixie, also affects what gets italicised/bolded if you do that |
| 23:04 | <Hixie> | true, true |
| 23:04 | <Hixie> | and you'd typically want the quotes italicised/bolded |
| 23:04 | <Hixie> | gsnedders, annevk: the quote marks wouldn't be _required_ |
| 23:04 | <BenMillard> | if I'm using curly quotes I'd tend to avoid italicising them; they are already curly |
| 23:05 | <Hixie> | gsnedders, annevk: just not inserted by UAs automatically |
| 23:05 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: so myself and annevk have to use before/after selectors to keep compat. with our content? |
| 23:05 | <jgraham> | BenMillard: Arguably a font issue? |
| 23:05 | jgraham | doesn't really know |
| 23:06 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: arguably the font system shouldn't italicise certain codepoints, such as curly quotes |
| 23:06 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: (when not using a given italic typeface and making its own up) |
| 23:07 | <BenMillard> | how authors currently do inline runs of quoted text are something I hope to study |
| 23:07 | gsnedders | uses the q element, but he doesn't quote much |
| 23:07 | <Hixie> | gsnedders, annevk: yeah |
| 23:07 | <Hixie> | gsnedders, annevk: assuming you like quotation marks |
| 23:08 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: quotation marks _rule_. |
| 23:08 | <annevk> | wow, cssom-view caused browser incompatibilities |
| 23:08 | <annevk> | what nonsense |
| 23:08 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Not quotation marks "rule", then? ;) |
| 23:08 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: nope. |
| 23:09 | gsnedders | should probably sleep, but he's waiting for molly to finish doing what she's currently working on to talk to her :P |
| 23:09 | <jgraham> | (I assume you saw the do not use quotation marks for emphasis picture) |
| 23:09 | <gsnedders> | no |
| 23:10 | <gsnedders> | I'm blind :P |
| 23:10 | <heyadayo> | i have a couple questions about the section 6 TCPConnection object. First off, is there any provision for sending the tcp data through an http proxy (Such as sending a HTTP CONNECT to the proxy before the "HELLO") ? |
| 23:10 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: link? |
| 23:11 | <BenMillard> | gsnedders, hixie, jgraham: http://www.mozilla.org/projects/rt-messaging/chatzilla/user-guide.html - curly opening speechmark faked with 2 grave accents with straight speechmark after the quoted text: ``ChatZilla!'' |
| 23:11 | <jgraham> | http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:fu5l-quqTlEJ:www.photobasement.com/please-do-not-use-quotation-marks-for-emphasis/+do+not+use+quotation+marks+for+emphasis&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2 |
| 23:11 | <gsnedders> | BenMillard: LaTeX comes up again. |
| 23:11 | <jgraham> | yay for google keeping the web going when the actual servers are dead |
| 23:12 | <Hixie> | heyadayo: no |
| 23:12 | <Hixie> | heyadayo: (at least not at the moment; if you think that's a feature we should add, please do mail the list with details) |
| 23:13 | <gsnedders> | three cheers for Google! |
| 23:13 | <heyadayo> | Hixie, okay, i will send an email. Also, whats the intended value of the "Hello" and "Welcome" exchange? |
| 23:14 | <Hixie> | heyadayo: to prevent, e.g., someone connecting to an SMTP server |
| 23:14 | <Hixie> | heyadayo: or a Telnet server |
| 23:14 | <Hixie> | heyadayo: or any server that isn't expecting Web pages to randomly connect to it |
| 23:14 | <annevk> | heyadayo, http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-html5-20080122/#parsing1 is the format Opera implements, though as Philip` said there may be bugs |
| 23:15 | <heyadayo> | Hixie, why is enforcing the distinction between a web client and a regular client imporant? |
| 23:15 | <heyadayo> | annevk, thank you |
| 23:15 | <BenMillard> | gsnedders, another quotes example: http://www.stuffandnonsense.co.uk/malarkey/more/microformats_the_fine_art_of_markup/ uses straight apostrophes in content like ' but has curly quotes generated by <q>How to use help</q> in a footer link |
| 23:16 | <Hixie> | heyadayo: to prevent, e.g., people putting scripts in random web pages that find a local SMTP server and start sending spam |
| 23:16 | <Hixie> | heyadayo: or that communicate to a random HTTP server behind a firewall by "proxying" through the browser of someone browsing the web |
| 23:18 | <heyadayo> | Hixie, ah, right |
| 23:18 | <BenMillard> | gsnedders, http://inspire.server101.com/ben/2008/03/public-transport-dystopia.html has unpunctuated quoted text using <em> which includes the terminal . before the </em> |
| 23:19 | <gsnedders> | BenMillard: i.e., just italicising the quote? |
| 23:19 | <gsnedders> | BenMillard: (punctuation is language specific with regards to quote, en-us and en-gb are different, fwiw) |
| 23:19 | <heyadayo> | annevk, so it looks like opera's original foray into SSE has been much expanded in the 9.5 version? |
| 23:20 | <BenMillard> | gsnedders, I mentioned that earlier to support allowing both positions for punctuation...didn't realise en-AU followed en-US rather than en-GB though |
| 23:22 | <jgraham> | How does en-US quoting work? |
| 23:22 | jgraham | never noticed a difference |
| 23:23 | <gsnedders> | "This is an en-us quote." |
| 23:23 | <gsnedders> | "This is an en-gb quote". |
| 23:23 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, you just used the word "quoting." This was a demo of en-US quoting |
| 23:23 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, you just used the word "quoting". This was a demo of en-GB quoting |
| 23:24 | <jgraham> | wow it's odd that I didn't notice that. It seems kinda illogical :) |
| 23:24 | <gsnedders> | And then you get into odd things like when she asked, "What if?". |
| 23:24 | <gsnedders> | I have no idea what that is in en-us |
| 23:24 | <BenMillard> | en-US drops the outer . |
| 23:24 | <BenMillard> | I've seen British style guides allow that for those types of case |
| 23:25 | <gsnedders> | en-gb-x-sneddy includes it, FWIW |
| 23:25 | <annevk> | hendry, we still don't support custom event classes and such... |
| 23:25 | <annevk> | heyadayo, ^^ |
| 23:25 | <Philip`> | I've always been taught that punctuation goes inside the quotes (even if it's not a part of the quoted text), but I've always ignored that rule since it's stupid and wrong |
| 23:25 | gsnedders | keeps the quotation verbatim inside the quotes |
| 23:26 | <gsnedders> | your quoting it, you don't change it! |
| 23:26 | <Philip`> | since it only makes sense to put the literal quoted text inside the quotation marks |
| 23:26 | <gsnedders> | If I change it at all, it is with square brackets after what I'm changing |
| 23:26 | <BenMillard> | Philip` and gsnedders, I think the differences of style around this are historical so it makes sense to allow both. :) |
| 23:26 | <gsnedders> | "He [Bob] asked me what to do.". |
| 23:26 | <gsnedders> | BenMillard: certainly :) |
| 23:26 | gsnedders | heads off to sleep |
| 23:26 | <jgraham> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Quotation_marks |
| 23:27 | <jgraham> | says it's npt gb/us |
| 23:27 | <jgraham> | not* |
| 23:27 | gsnedders | shrugs |
| 23:27 | gsnedders | falls alssep |
| 23:29 | <Philip`> | Punctuating non-inline LaTeX equations is what always causes me problems |
| 23:29 | <jgraham> | I get that wrong. Every. Single. Fucking. Time. |
| 23:30 | <Philip`> | "Clearly $$1+1=2$$." is stupid because the . would be dangling on the next line, but "Clearly $$1+1=2.$$" is stupid because it looks like the . is part of the equation when it isn't |
| 23:31 | <jgraham> | You would have thought I would learn after the first few, but my brain is incapable of dealing with the idea that the , just has to be put inside the equation despite having nothing to do with the equation. |
| 23:31 | <jgraham> | I also always get whitespace around equations wrong |
| 23:32 | <heyadayo> | annevk, so do you think opera will scale back its implementation in the future and drop the additional features of the old spec? |
| 23:34 | <Philip`> | From my experience of the one time when I've had to submit a paper, overfull hboxes are the most irritating problem, particularly because you can only fix them after you've finished all the text, which means it is very near the deadline and so you are tired and fed up and under pressure and it's no fun trying to fix everything |
| 23:34 | <annevk> | heyadayo, I'm not sure if we'd immediately drop support for the old format (they can be supported together) |
| 23:36 | <heyadayo> | annevk, so i suppose you'd differentiate by the two different headers (application/x-dom-event-stream (old) vs. text/event-stream (new)) |
| 23:36 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, perhaps the nationality of the difference is a myth. either way, the difference exists |
| 23:37 | <jgraham> | BenMillard: I don't dispute that it exists :) |
| 23:37 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, ah, ok then |
| 23:38 | <annevk> | heyadayo, yes, going forward we might do that, for now we only support application/x-dom-event-stream |
| 23:38 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, interestingly a later section says "the quotation marks should not be in boldface" which means they consider styling of quotes to determine their position (as I suspected any author would) |
| 23:38 | <heyadayo> | annevk, ok |
| 23:38 | <heyadayo> | annevk, i think for now we're going to implement the new SSE standard with xhr streaming for opera |
| 23:38 | <annevk> | wfm :) |
| 23:38 | <jgraham> | Philip`: That's never been a problem I've had. Often LaTeX will complain about overfull hboxes (often with badness 10,000) but I don't recall seeing an actual problem that could be ascribed to them. |
| 23:38 | <annevk> | http://intertwingly.net/blog/2008/04/11/SVG-and-MathML-Annexes-to-HTML5 |
| 23:39 | <Philip`> | jgraham: Hmm, have you written two-column documents? |
| 23:40 | <Philip`> | Two columns plus large margins plus indented bold text plus slightly long words tends to run out of space and look very ugly :-( |
| 23:40 | <jgraham> | Philip`: Yeah, but maybe it depends on the style file? |
| 23:40 | <Hixie> | holy crap, sam's now said two cautiously positive things about the math+svg stuff |
| 23:40 | jgraham | tries to avoid doing anything complex in LaTeX |
| 23:40 | <Hixie> | i overshot my goals! |
| 23:40 | <Hixie> | excellent |
| 23:40 | <jmb> | Hixie: you must be doing something right, then :) |
| 23:41 | <jgraham> | Because whilst LaTeX is nice for maths it is really really hard to lay out a page in |
| 23:41 | <jmb> | jgraham: I just leave it to it, tbh. then again, I've written sufficiently few documents where the layout has to be exact that it's never been a problem for me |
| 23:42 | <jgraham> | jmb: There's a wonderful quote on our office whiteboard "Doing a poster in LaTeX is like trying to do a poster in C" |
| 23:42 | <jmb> | jgraham: I approve :) |
| 23:43 | <Hixie> | there's something ironic about the fact that " and ' fall into Po and not Pi or Pf or somesuch |
| 23:43 | <jmb> | jgraham: I should thank you for your mailing list post(s) about alt. they're far more coherent than I could hope to be |
| 23:43 | <jgraham> | (!) |
| 23:44 | <Hixie> | dude |
| 23:44 | <Hixie> | awesome |
| 23:44 | <Hixie> | unicode has a separate way of categorising things as Quotation_Mark |
| 23:44 | <Hixie> | sweet! |
| 23:44 | <BenMillard> | hixie, quotes again: http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/01/open_data_you_and_me.html has one space inside of each speechmark, with terminal punctuation on the inside attached to the final word. no markup around this at any point |
| 23:45 | <Hixie> | yeah if there's no markup then it's no big deal |
| 23:45 | <Hixie> | i don't think we should require quotations to be marked up |
| 23:45 | <Hixie> | just like we don't require it of titles of work, etc |
| 23:46 | <BenMillard> | interestingly, the speechmarks are « and » but these are in content inheriting lang="en" |
| 23:47 | <BenMillard> | so after about 3 pages it looks like authors care more about how their punctuation looks than how it is marked up |
| 23:47 | <Hixie> | that's almost certainly the case, yes |
| 23:48 | <BenMillard> | kind of a no-brainer, really :P |
| 23:48 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 23:48 | <BenMillard> | I'm off to bed, bye all. |
| 23:48 | <Hixie> | nn |
| 23:49 | <Hixie> | hey |
| 23:49 | <Hixie> | interesting |
| 23:49 | <Hixie> | maybe i should be talking about White_Space not Sz |
| 23:49 | <Hixie> | Zs even |
