| 08:35 | <annevk2> | Hixie, prose says the default is '10px sans-serif' and IDL says '8px sans-serif' |
| 08:36 | <annevk> | ah, logging is back |
| 08:36 | <Hixie> | oops |
| 08:36 | <Hixie> | logging? |
| 08:38 | <annevk> | krijnh joined a fifteen minutes ago |
| 08:38 | <Hixie> | aah |
| 08:39 | <annevk> | hmm, I wonder if there's an inverse relation between the number of e-mails left and the number of XXX comments in the spec :) |
| 08:40 | <Hixie> | quite possible |
| 08:40 | <Hixie> | what the hell did little jacob eat that cost a $120 at a burger joint! |
| 08:40 | <Hixie> | jeezus |
| 08:41 | <annevk> | GTA IV reference? |
| 08:41 | annevk | wants to play that game |
| 08:41 | <Hixie> | yes |
| 08:42 | <annevk> | he's probably not so little :p |
| 08:42 | <jacobolus> | Hixie: I always get the most expensive thing on the menu :) |
| 08:43 | <Hixie> | it's a burger joint! the most expensive thing is like $3! |
| 08:43 | <jacobolus> | you've never had a caviar burger? |
| 08:44 | <Hixie> | i do not believe that would be on the menu of that particular restaurant |
| 08:46 | <roc> | you've never eaten in New York City? |
| 08:47 | <Hixie> | i have, but $120 seems still pretty damn high |
| 08:49 | <BenMillard> | hixie, maybe he just ordered loads of stuff? |
| 08:49 | <BenMillard> | btw, I'm at Sight City in Frankfurt this week thanks to Mozilla |
| 08:50 | <BenMillard> | assistive technology convention type thing |
| 08:50 | <BenMillard> | http://www.sightcity.net/sightcity08-e.html |
| 08:50 | <Hixie> | cool |
| 08:53 | <annevk> | BenMillard, please invite all of them to join the HTMLWG/WHATWG and especially to e-mail their thoughts :) |
| 08:53 | <annevk> | (on html5, in case that wasn't clear...) |
| 08:54 | <Hixie> | christ, more people worried about copyrights on acid tests |
| 08:54 | <Hixie> | people are insanely paranoid about copyright |
| 08:54 | <BenMillard> | annevk, that's a great idea |
| 08:55 | <BenMillard> | annevk, I'll also be asking them about their interest in better support HTML's existing accessibility features, fixing bugs in their HTML support, stuff like that |
| 08:55 | <BenMillard> | *better supporting |
| 08:55 | <BenMillard> | hope to blog it all when I get back in similar detail as the Boston F2F |
| 08:56 | <annevk> | cool |
| 08:57 | <BenMillard> | I'll be walking around with a notepad and pen, pouncing on AT vendors like a journalist :P |
| 08:58 | <BenMillard> | I get back on Friday evening; off for some lunch now. bye all |
| 09:10 | <hsivonen> | annevk: Molly had to cancel |
| 09:20 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: you there? |
| 09:20 | <annevk> | am now |
| 09:20 | <annevk> | hsivonen, ok |
| 09:20 | <annevk> | too bad |
| 09:21 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: wondering where Arve might be |
| 09:21 | <annevk> | sidewalk? |
| 09:21 | <annevk> | dunno really |
| 09:25 | <annevk> | hsivonen, yt? |
| 09:25 | annevk | is going down to get lunch |
| 09:26 | <hsivonen> | annevk: I haven't had breakfast yet |
| 09:26 | <hsivonen> | It will be a while before I even get to breakfast |
| 09:34 | <hsivonen> | hendry: see above. Molly's event is canceled |
| 09:44 | jgraham__ | denies having any opinion on canvas text in general and text-on-a-path in particular |
| 09:54 | <jgraham__> | Oh wait a second, you were talking about measuring text. Yeah, I did have a (sensible!) opinion on that :) |
| 10:48 | <Lachy> | Hixie, did you intentionally omit 'justify' from the allowed values of canvas context .textAlign? |
| 10:49 | <Hixie> | yes |
| 10:49 | <Hixie> | <string> also |
| 10:50 | <Lachy> | isn't it possible to support it at all? |
| 10:51 | <Lachy> | or is it just too complex for this first version? |
| 10:51 | <othermaciej> | full justification looks shitty on the web usually |
| 10:52 | <othermaciej> | basically no site uses it |
| 10:52 | <annevk> | justify should be possible, would even be nice if maxWidth was taken as desiredWidth or something |
| 10:52 | <othermaciej> | CSS3 Text module has a super complex spec for fancy full justification |
| 10:52 | <Lachy> | the default wordpress template uses justify |
| 10:52 | <othermaciej> | which IE might even implement some of |
| 10:53 | <Lachy> | so you can't say basically no site uses it. |
| 10:53 | <Philip`> | You could imagine that 'left' means 'left or justify', since you can only draw a single line of text so it makes no difference |
| 10:53 | <othermaciej> | of the 4 random wordpress.com blogs I looked at, none seems to have full justified text |
| 10:54 | <annevk> | offtopic: http://shop.lego.com/ByTheme/Product.aspx?p=10179&cn=416&d=322 |
| 10:54 | <othermaciej> | you could full-justify a single line to a specific width, but that is likely a bad idea |
| 10:54 | <Hixie> | full justification would be meaningless since there's only one line, it would be stretch-to-fit |
| 10:54 | <othermaciej> | annevk: multiple people at my work have one of those |
| 10:54 | <Hixie> | or space-to-fit |
| 10:54 | <Hixie> | and i'm not adding that feature just because text-align happens to have it |
| 10:55 | <othermaciej> | full justify only ever looks good if you have an algorithm that is smart about adding justification vs. breaking lines, and is willing to either expand or compress both letter-spacing and word-spacing |
| 10:55 | <Lachy> | ok, that makes sense |
| 10:56 | <Philip`> | Why can't web browsers render everything using LaTeX? |
| 10:56 | <othermaciej> | WebKit's algorithm is not very smart (it breaks lines as normal and adds word-spacing) |
| 10:56 | <othermaciej> | Philip`: good justification is expensive to do on the fly, since you have to optimize the whole paragraph and can't really work line-at-a-time |
| 10:56 | <othermaciej> | (which I believe is what TeX does) |
| 10:57 | <Philip`> | Computers are fast - I would have though they could optimise a ten-line paragraph without a huge amount of trouble |
| 10:57 | <Philip`> | *thought |
| 10:58 | <Hixie> | one paragraph, sire |
| 10:58 | <Hixie> | sure |
| 10:59 | <Hixie> | html5 is about 5000 paragraphs |
| 10:59 | <othermaciej> | full justify is really most useful for very narrow columns as in newspapers |
| 10:59 | <othermaciej> | though I guess it looks good in books too |
| 11:00 | <annevk> | i think that's why CSS3 covers it in much detail |
| 11:00 | <othermaciej> | in the web context it can create "rivers" through the text when done badly |
| 11:00 | <annevk> | probably less so for CSS applied on a screen context |
| 11:01 | <Philip`> | I assume good justification also requires automatic hyphenation |
| 11:02 | <annevk> | that's another topic discussed quite a bit in the CSS WG... |
| 11:07 | Philip` | would be happier if more basic aspects of text rendering worked, like not having some fonts appear with no antialiasing on Linux, or like not having Safari sometimes render '=' with the top line twice the thickness of the bottom line, before worrying about complex typographical layout details |
| 11:08 | <hsivonen> | hmm. *I'm* hung up on machine validation of alt??? |
| 11:10 | <annevk> | maybe you should ask which universe version of you they're referring too |
| 11:17 | Philip` | wonders why Hixie's proposal that makes alt mandatory has had so few responses |
| 11:17 | Hixie | bites back some scathing cynicism |
| 11:18 | <othermaciej> | did anyone read it? |
| 11:19 | <othermaciej> | probably only people who dislike mandatory alt actually read that far |
| 11:19 | <Philip`> | I don't dislike mandatory alt but I read it :-) |
| 11:19 | <Lachy> | Philip`, when did Hixie propose to make alt mandatory? Did I miss something? |
| 11:20 | <Philip`> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008May/0073.html |
| 11:22 | <Philip`> | (I suppose that wasn't actually saying alt should be mandatory in all cases, but I'm not sure what other cases remain) |
| 11:24 | <othermaciej> | Hixie's proposal is clearly meant to be a Modest one |
| 11:24 | <othermaciej> | but I don't hate it that much other than the sheer length of importantimage="importantimage" |
| 11:24 | <Lachy> | I really don't like the name importantimage for the attribute |
| 11:25 | <Hixie> | i believe i noted the attribute name was dumb |
| 11:25 | <Hixie> | and asked for better ideas |
| 11:26 | <Lachy> | how about introducing <img src="..." kind="Photo"> (where the value is a short, descriptive label of somekind) |
| 11:26 | <othermaciej> | the thing is, none of the people who would be expected to herald it as a brilliant breakthrough have spoken up |
| 11:27 | <Hixie> | shocking |
| 11:27 | <Hixie> | in other news |
| 11:27 | <Hixie> | i need to make innerHTML convert undefined and null to strings before processing |
| 11:27 | <Hixie> | should i just assume that that is what happens? |
| 11:27 | <Hixie> | i don't really follow that part of WebIDL |
| 11:27 | <Lachy> | that way you're not altering the meaning of alt based on the presence of another attribtue, and it also gives more potentially useful information in conjuncion with alt |
| 11:28 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: heycam's explanation of that in email further confused me |
| 11:29 | <Hixie> | as i understand it we have the following cases: |
| 11:29 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: it sounds like in the current version you have to specify [NoNull] to get that behavior for null but I am not really sure |
| 11:29 | <Hixie> | (for setting DOMString attributes and for passing DOMString arguments) |
| 11:29 | <Hixie> | 1. null -> "", undefined -> "" |
| 11:29 | <Hixie> | 2. null -> "", undefined -> "undefined" |
| 11:29 | <Lachy> | e.g. it distinguishes these two images, even though they have the same alt text: |
| 11:29 | <Lachy> | <img src="house.png" alt="The house is white, with green shutters on the windows." kind="Painting"> |
| 11:29 | <Lachy> | <img src="house.png" alt="The house is white, with green shutters on the windows." kind="Photograph"> |
| 11:29 | <Hixie> | 3. null -> "null", undefined -> "undefined" |
| 11:30 | <Hixie> | 4. null -> null, undefined -> null |
| 11:31 | <annevk> | case 2 actually exists? :( |
| 11:31 | <othermaciej> | I don't think Web IDL has anything to specify handling for null |
| 11:31 | <othermaciej> | I am also not offhand aware of APIs that do 1 or 4 |
| 11:31 | <annevk> | Web IDL has [NoNull] |
| 11:31 | <Hixie> | annevk: firefox with innerHTML does that |
| 11:31 | <othermaciej> | er |
| 11:31 | <othermaciej> | specify handling for undefined I mean |
| 11:31 | <Hixie> | [NoNull] is a terrible name as it doesn't convey 1-4 of the above |
| 11:32 | <othermaciej> | I think 2 is what you get by default, and 3 is what you get with NoNull |
| 11:32 | <annevk> | Hixie, I don't think Firefox is the best reference |
| 11:32 | <annevk> | I believe WebKit, Opera, and IE are more aligned last I checked |
| 11:32 | <Hixie> | i'm not saying it is |
| 11:33 | <othermaciej> | in WebKit's IDL extensions, 3 is what you get by default and 2 (or really null -> null, undefined -> "undefined") is what you get with [ConvertNullToNullString] |
| 11:33 | <Lachy> | selectors api uses case 1 for return values from nsresolver |
| 11:33 | <othermaciej> | I think in DOM APIs, 2 (or really my variant of 2, but most things don't distinguish null string and empty string) is most common |
| 11:34 | <othermaciej> | but 3 is the most native-to-JavaScript behavior |
| 11:35 | <othermaciej> | Safari does 2 for assignment to innerHTML afaict |
| 11:36 | <othermaciej> | I can't find any place where we treat undefined passed for a string argument as empty string instead of "undefined" |
| 11:36 | <Hixie> | can you find any cases where you treat undefined as null? |
| 11:37 | <othermaciej> | actually we have a function for it so maybe |
| 11:38 | <othermaciej> | lemme see |
| 11:38 | <Lachy> | othermaciej, it appears that webkit does for document.querySelector(undefined); It throws a syntax err, the same as if "" was passed |
| 11:38 | <othermaciej> | createDocumentType, querySelector and toDataURL |
| 11:39 | <othermaciej> | createDocumentType is probably the only one of those that can't be changes for compat reasons |
| 11:39 | <othermaciej> | sucks to have three different ways of treating DOMString arguments |
| 11:39 | <annevk> | createDocumentType is used?! |
| 11:39 | <othermaciej> | and that's not even accounting for the weirdshit on attribute setting or return values |
| 11:40 | <othermaciej> | annevk: shockingly, yes |
| 11:40 | <Hixie> | getElementsByClassName() seems to treat undefined as "" in webkit trunk |
| 11:42 | <othermaciej> | I will not vouch for all our string treatment being the best choice compat-wise, mind you, not all of the cases have been compared against other implementations |
| 11:42 | <othermaciej> | Document.execCommand also treats undefined as null/empty for the third argument |
| 11:42 | <othermaciej> | (presumably to DTRT when it is omitted) |
| 11:43 | <othermaciej> | also for the URL and feature arguments of window.open |
| 11:59 | hendry | is in Dublin |
| 12:17 | <Philip`> | Lachy: <img src="..." kind="Photo"> would be much worse than <img src="..." alt="Photo" some-metametadata-attribute> for graceful degradation, since existing UAs won't tell the user it's a photo and will do something ugly like read the filename or ignore the image |
| 12:30 | <Lachy> | Philip`, so as far as back compat is concerned, it's no worse than what the current spec says |
| 12:31 | <Lachy> | but it's still may be an improvement for future UAs |
| 12:33 | <Philip`> | Lachy: Would it be more of an improvement for future UAs than <img importantimage>? |
| 12:34 | <Hixie> | woot, i caught up with the backlog i got from playing gta4 |
| 12:35 | <Philip`> | Does that mean you're going back to GTA4 again? :-) |
| 12:35 | <Lachy> | I think importantimage will suffer from many of the same problems as noalt="" |
| 12:35 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: are you sure you're old enough to play GTA4? |
| 12:35 | <gsnedders> | :D |
| 12:38 | <Lachy> | oh, I like Hixie's suggested improvements for WebIDL. I hope heycam accepts them, and then I only need to decide on the best behavior to choose for selectors api |
| 13:34 | <heycam`> | Hixie / othermaciej_ , thanks for the comments. i'll get to making some changes to web idl late next week, when my current busy patch is over. |
| 13:53 | <Lachy> | JohnResig, othermaciej, I added a very basic testsuite for selectors api. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2006/webapi/selectors-api-testsuite/ |
| 13:54 | <Lachy> | it doesn't test much yet, I'm still in the process of working out the best way to write the framework. |
| 13:54 | <Lachy> | but take a look, see if what I have is a good start and let me know if you have any suggestions for improvements |
| 13:56 | <Lachy> | the plan is to run most tests within an iframe, which loads various HTML and XHTML files, and runs queries on them |
| 13:56 | <Lachy> | and each test is a function within an array, written in tests.js |
| 13:58 | <Philip`> | Would you have a single iframe, and run each test in it in turn? |
| 13:59 | <Philip`> | Oh, actually, I think I'm just misunderstanding the whole thing, so ignore me |
| 13:59 | <Lachy> | Philip`, yes, that's most likely |
| 13:59 | <Philip`> | Are you always testing DOM-created documents, rather than downloaded-over-HTTP documents? |
| 14:00 | <Lachy> | no, the plan is to allow each test to either create a document or load a file into the iframe |
| 14:01 | <Philip`> | Ah, right |
| 14:01 | <Lachy> | not sure exactly how to do that, since such operations would need to be asynchronous |
| 14:01 | <othermaciej> | Lachy: I will ask weinig or somebody to tae a look |
| 14:01 | <Lachy> | othermaciej, thanks |
| 14:01 | <othermaciej> | Lachy: we have our own regression tests for querySelector but I doubt they are very powerful |
| 14:01 | <Philip`> | Lachy: Run test 1, set onload to a function that checks the results and then runs test 2? Not sure what the problem is :-) |
| 14:02 | <othermaciej> | we specifically didn't want to try to make tests for every possible kind of selector including edge cases, though come to think of it that would be more convenient than the tests with red and green boxes usually used for this kind of thing |
| 14:02 | <Lachy> | Philip`, yeah, something like that could work |
| 14:03 | <othermaciej> | Lachy: we have a good test framework for tests that purely involve scripting APIs and not layout |
| 14:03 | <Lachy> | othermaciej, ok. That might be good if I could build on that, instead of creating my own |
| 14:04 | <Philip`> | Mozilla has a framework for that too |
| 14:04 | <Philip`> | (http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Mochitest ) |
| 14:04 | <othermaciej> | basically you just write a series of assertions in a JS file like this: |
| 14:04 | <othermaciej> | shouldBe("Math.abs(1)", "1"); |
| 14:04 | <othermaciej> | shouldBe("Math.abs(-1)", "1"); |
| 14:04 | <Lachy> | Opera sort of does too, but it's not really something that's usable by anyone easily |
| 14:04 | <othermaciej> | and we have some JS files that implement the functions |
| 14:05 | <othermaciej> | ours is real easy to use |
| 14:05 | <othermaciej> | and gives pretty results |
| 14:06 | <othermaciej> | Lachy: I'll mail you an example (unless you have a WebKit checkout handy in which case I could point you to it) |
| 14:06 | <Lachy> | othermaciej, email it |
| 14:06 | <Philip`> | othermaciej: Is it easy to run individual tests by themselves? (Mozilla's Mochitests run a whole web server and a special browser mode, which is annoyingly complex) |
| 14:07 | <othermaciej> | Philip`: we group tests in files, all it takes to "run" such a suite is to open the html file in any browser |
| 14:07 | <othermaciej> | for fully automated execution we have a headless tool that loads all the html files in sequence |
| 14:07 | <Philip`> | othermaciej: Okay, sounds good :-) |
| 14:13 | <othermaciej> | Lachy: sent |
| 14:13 | <othermaciej> | Lachy: the three files starting with js- are the framework |
| 14:14 | <othermaciej> | elements-not-in-document.js is the substance of the test case |
| 14:14 | <othermaciej> | I might also have a script lying around to generate the wrapper HTML files for the script files (they just include the test script plus the CSS file and two helpers) |
| 14:15 | <othermaciej> | but it's pretty trivial |
| 14:16 | <othermaciej> | makes good looking output though where it is easy to spot the failures and why they fail |
| 14:17 | <othermaciej> | in addition to the basic shouldBe tests there's also shouldBeTrue, shouldBeFalse, shouldBeNaN, shouldBeNull, shouldBeUndefined and shouldThrow |
| 14:27 | <Lachy> | othermaciej, thanks |
| 14:33 | <gsnedders> | BBC News today reporting 4 in 5 15 y/os drink. That sounds far too lower amount. |
| 14:37 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, that sounds about right. I was one of the 1 in 5 that didn't drink at that age. |
| 14:37 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: Here it is certainly higher than 4 in 5. Even 9 in 10 seems low to me. |
| 14:38 | <gsnedders> | (I am that 1, no matter how many that is in :P) |
| 14:38 | <Philip`> | Does it mean 4 in 5 drink, or 4 in 5 say they drink when asked on a survey? |
| 14:39 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: The claim is the former due to the latter. |
| 14:39 | <gsnedders> | If they just admitted it was the latter there would me less questioning by me :P |
| 14:41 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, do you believe that ~1 out of 5 lied by saying they didn't, when they actually do? |
| 14:41 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: Yes. |
| 14:41 | <Lachy> | what if some said they did, but actually don't |
| 14:42 | <gsnedders> | I doubt that would happen, though. |
| 14:42 | <gsnedders> | I know nobody who claims that |
| 14:42 | <Lachy> | maybe the only thing the survey can reliably tell us is that 15 year old kids can't be trusted |
| 14:42 | <gsnedders> | I know plenty of people who claim they don't drink, though |
| 14:43 | <gsnedders> | (But having seen them drink I can tell you it isn't true) |
| 14:43 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, what's your reason for not drinking? |
| 14:44 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: Well, I get allergic reactions drinking the slightest amount |
| 14:44 | <Lachy> | or were you just one of the liars? :-) |
| 14:44 | <Lachy> | oh, that sucks |
| 14:44 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: The group of people you know is quite possibly not representative of the entire country, so you can't use your anecdotes to argue against people who used Science and got written about on a website and must be true |
| 14:44 | <Lachy> | allergic to just beer, or all alcohol? |
| 14:44 | <gsnedders> | (where slightest amount means even a sip, not half a bottle as some of my friends would take it to be true) |
| 14:44 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: Beer, wine, whiskey. Never tried anything else. |
| 14:45 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Oh, the parties at the beach include most of the top two years of my school :P |
| 14:45 | <Philip`> | (That is, the general concept of Science, not the international weekly journal) |
| 14:45 | <Lachy> | try Vodka Cruisers, Biccardi Breezers, or things like that |
| 14:45 | <gsnedders> | (that's around 470 people) |
| 14:45 | <Philip`> | You could try water instead |
| 14:45 | <Lachy> | ... but don't do it till you're 18! |
| 14:45 | <Lachy> | (or whatever the legal drinking age is in your country) |
| 14:45 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: I fear what they'll do to me with their strength if I am allergic |
| 14:46 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: (5, with parental consent in private) |
| 14:46 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: (14 with food in restaurants) |
| 14:46 | <Lachy> | really? 14 is legal? |
| 14:46 | <gsnedders> | There's something at 16, too |
| 14:47 | <Lachy> | wow. In Australia, it's 18 in any public venue. Not sure if there's an explicit age limit for drinking in private |
| 14:47 | <gsnedders> | Hm, it's changed |
| 14:47 | <Lachy> | which country are you in? |
| 14:47 | <gsnedders> | It's no longer 14, but 16. |
| 14:47 | <gsnedders> | Scotland |
| 14:47 | <gsnedders> | We need alcohol for our northern European drinking culture (i.e., getting drunk every weekend) |
| 14:47 | <gsnedders> | (if not every day) |
| 14:48 | <Lachy> | ah, right. I guess, over there, it's rare for anyone to be sober :-) |
| 14:49 | <gsnedders> | I really can't think of many people who don't drink. |
| 14:49 | <gsnedders> | Maybe five or so out of one hundred, so one in twenty don't. |
| 14:50 | gsnedders | finds a quote from IRC in IM logs |
| 14:50 | <gsnedders> | "The editor RECOMMENDS eating pasta while implementing this specification. Lachlan Hunt RECOMMENDS eating hamburgers while implementing this specification." |
| 14:50 | <Lachy> | was that from the discussion about beetroot on burgers? |
| 14:51 | <gsnedders> | No, RSS5 saying, "Authors MUST NOT use this language. The editor RECOMMENDS usage of The Atom Syndication Format. [RFC4287]", I think |
| 14:51 | <gsnedders> | 20080115 |
| 14:51 | <gsnedders> | http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080115#l-633 |
| 14:52 | <Lachy> | yeah, that's the one. See elsewhere in the logs where I listed the essential ignredients |
| 14:52 | <gsnedders> | There are so many lovely things in IM logs between me and molz |
| 14:53 | <gsnedders> | E.g., (I know she won't mind me quoting this): "02:59:09 Molly Holzschlag: you are NOT awake" |
| 14:53 | <gsnedders> | How to start a conversation :) |
| 14:57 | <gsnedders> | Oh, and now me shouting, "I AM PERFECTLY NORMAL" |
| 15:00 | <gsnedders> | Hah! |
| 15:00 | <gsnedders> | It's all so lovely. |
| 15:00 | <gsnedders> | Who is cuter, me or Hixie? |
| 15:03 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, why would you ask such a question? |
| 15:03 | <Philip`> | Sounds like a very dangerous question to answer |
| 15:04 | <Lachy> | my answer would be neither, since, AFAIK, neither of them are girls and thus not cute at all |
| 15:05 | <Philip`> | Are small fluffy male kittens unable to be cute? |
| 15:05 | <Lachy> | only if they have a cute caption. Otherwise, I don't like cats |
| 15:06 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: Discussion myself and Molly got into for no apparent reason |
| 15:06 | <Lachy> | oh, and there's aways exceptions for children |
| 15:06 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: Actually, it more a monologue by Molly |
| 15:06 | <Philip`> | What about uncaptioned hamsters? |
| 15:07 | <Philip`> | They're always cute as long as you keep your fingers away from their mouths |
| 15:07 | <Lachy> | Philip`, I don't know. I haven't seen a LOLHamster |
| 15:07 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: According to Molly, Hixie has been wrecked by power, so me |
| 15:09 | <Lachy> | http://xkcd.com/262/ :-D |
| 15:10 | <gsnedders> | Oooo… /me is getting some XKCD t-shirts! |
| 15:11 | <annevk> | their alt sucks btw |
| 15:11 | <Lachy> | which ones? |
| 15:11 | <annevk> | seems they just copied the title |
| 15:13 | <Philip`> | http://www.ohnorobot.com/index.pl?comic=56&s=gluing+captions |
| 15:13 | <Philip`> | Transcriptions do exist, so presumably it'd be nice to use them as alt text |
| 17:03 | <hasather> | Is http://www.opera.com/dragonfly/ done counting for everyone, or is there some TZ issue? |
| 17:04 | <hasather> | no, should be live: http://twitter.com/opera/statuses/804779359 |
| 17:04 | <hasather> | works now |
| 17:05 | <Philip`> | hasather: It sends me to http://www.opera.com/products/dragonfly/ which has a download link |
| 17:05 | <hasather> | Philip`: yes, didn't work one minute ago for me |
| 17:08 | <Philip`> | It's kind of odd that it's "Built using the open web standards you know and love" but starts with <viewport xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">; which seems not entirely standard |
| 17:11 | MikeSmith | is looking at Dragonfly page now |
| 17:11 | <MikeSmith> | wasn't there supposed to be a feature related to remote debugging? |
| 17:12 | <MikeSmith> | that is, HTTP debugging proxy like Fiddler? |
| 17:12 | <Philip`> | MikeSmith: "Debug pages whether they are on your computer or a supported device, such as a Windows Mobile phone running Opera Mobile 9.5." |
| 17:12 | <Lachy> | oh, when was dragon fly publicly announced? |
| 17:12 | <MikeSmith> | ah |
| 17:12 | <Philip`> | ... "You can connect to any device running Presto Core-2.1 or above, and debug using your computer’s screen and keyboard – No need to struggle inputting test data with your phone’s keypad again." |
| 17:13 | Philip` | assumes that won't work for Opera Mini |
| 17:47 | <MikeSmith> | hendry: you there? |
| 18:17 | <zcorpan_> | hsivonen: dunno if you already know about this but here are some test cases that might be interesting to you: http://www.validome.org/lang/en/errors/ALL |
| 18:23 | <zcorpan_> | hsivonen: for xml documents, perhaps you should compare the root element with the mime type and complain about image/svg+xml containing xhtml? |
| 18:36 | <zcorpan_> | hsivonen: the message "Quirky doctype." is a bit unhelpful i think -- it's unclear what's wrong and what to do about it |
| 18:36 | <zcorpan_> | hsivonen: consider <!DOCTYPE php PUBLIC "-// ... |
| 18:50 | <zcorpan_> | hmm? validome seems to think that entities in id='' is not allowed |
| 18:56 | <gsnedders> | so, how far are people on GTA4? |
| 18:57 | <zcorpan_> | hsivonen: you don't seem to allow whitespace in the legacy encoding declaration (between text/html; and encoding=...) |
| 19:06 | <takkaria> | zcorpan_: I thought that the spec mandates that |
| 19:27 | <zcorpan_> | takkaria: mandates what? |
| 19:31 | <takkaria> | zcorpan_: nm, I checked the spec anyway and I was wrong |
| 19:41 | <gsnedders> | annevk: you asked me to expand on mid:E5851D3C-1B2C-49F0-9A23-61A56DD4A4FC⊙gc — do you want me to bring the thread up again now? |
| 19:56 | <gsnedders> | Philip`, jgraham__: any thoughts about where to go for (this!) Friday? |
| 20:23 | <jgraham__> | gsnedders: Lets decide a place to meet then improvise |
| 20:23 | jgraham__ | votes for meeting somewhere closer to the IoA than the Millpond :) |
| 20:24 | <gsnedders> | That's further for me though! |
| 20:24 | <gsnedders> | And the closer we get, the less well I know where I am (which isn't good when I haven't really been to Cam. much in years) |
| 20:26 | jgraham__ | has to go eat now |
| 20:26 | <gsnedders> | But you don't know where you're eating on Friday! |
| 20:35 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: What kind of time is it likely to be? |
| 20:35 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: What suits you two? |
| 20:35 | <gsnedders> | I arrive at around 4pm, IIRC |
| 20:35 | <Philip`> | Anything that's not too late and not too early would be just right |
| 20:35 | <gsnedders> | And I'm not doing anything else all day, apart from travelling |
| 20:36 | <Philip`> | I'll be at the Computer Lab during the day, but could leave whenever I wanted to |
| 20:36 | <gsnedders> | 15:08 I arrive at the station |
| 20:36 | <gsnedders> | Or at least, I'm _meant_ to arrive at the station :) |
| 20:37 | <gsnedders> | 6pm or so at the earliest would be best, IMO |
| 20:39 | <gsnedders> | I'm open to suggestions as to where to meet anywhere where I know in Cambridge (which is mostly just the centre) |
| 20:44 | Philip` | notes that he is useless at suggesting anything |
| 20:45 | <Philip`> | I don't know much other than the straight line between King's and Sainsbury's |
| 20:45 | <gsnedders> | Heh. |
| 20:46 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: And you've been in Cam. for how long? |
| 20:46 | <Philip`> | Only 3.5 years |
| 20:46 | <gsnedders> | You need to get out more! :P |
| 20:46 | <Philip`> | I'm happy enough without doing so :-) |
| 20:47 | gsnedders | notes his latest tweet: "Too many vertices, not enough edges, in the graph of my mind." |
| 20:48 | <Philip`> | The more important measurement is how many faces you have |
| 20:49 | <gsnedders> | No, you've got it wrong :P |
| 21:08 | <jgraham__> | We could meet outside Kings |
| 21:08 | <jgraham__> | That seems like a happy medium |
| 21:26 | <Philip`> | jgraham__: Sounds reasonable to me |
| 22:47 | <Hixie> | good lord |
| 22:50 | <Philip`> | ? |
| 22:50 | <Hixie> | i am seriously fed up with people asking me about copyright stuff |
| 22:50 | <Hixie> | who |
| 22:50 | <Hixie> | the hell |
| 22:50 | <Hixie> | cares |
| 22:51 | <Hixie> | i hate the RIAA for making everyone so damn paranoid |
| 22:52 | <Philip`> | Just put a CC licence on your work, and then people will happily share it and fail to follow the licence's requirements |
| 22:53 | <jruderman> | lol |
| 22:53 | <Hixie> | in this particular case it was about the copyright on screenshots of the acid3 test |
| 22:53 | <Lachy> | ok, that's insane. |
| 22:53 | <Hixie> | which i wouldn't own the copyright on even if it COULD be copyrighted which as far as i can tell it can't! |
| 22:53 | <Lachy> | doesn't everyone know acid 3 is in the public domain? |
| 22:53 | <Hixie> | it's a page for testing interop! as far as i know it can't be copyrighted! anything you do with it is fair use for interop! |
| 22:54 | <Hixie> | grrr |
| 22:54 | <Philip`> | Publishing screenshots of Acid 3 on Wikipedia isn't for interoperability |
| 22:54 | <Lachy> | the W3C would disagree with that, given their recent discussions about the css test suite licence |
| 22:55 | <Hixie> | the w3c smokes too much crack |
| 22:55 | <Lachy> | LOL |
| 22:55 | <Hixie> | and is also pissing me off |
| 22:56 | <Hixie> | (regarding the testsuite stuff, and various other things) |
| 22:56 | <gsnedders> | No, the people in GTA4 smoke too much crack :) |
| 22:56 | <gsnedders> | The W3C ain't got nothing on them. |
| 22:57 | Lachy | wonders if there's crack dealers in the game to make it more realistic? |
| 22:57 | <gsnedders> | Yeah. Some get murdered, too. Also realism. |
| 22:58 | <Lachy> | cool |
| 22:58 | gsnedders | has actually almost finished the story line |
| 22:58 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: There's a slight difference in that the W3C exists in real life, rather than in a satirical video game |
| 22:58 | <gsnedders> | A single week for a GTA game? That's a bit too quick. |
| 22:58 | <jgraham__> | What's the deal with the CSS testsuite license? |
| 22:58 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Sssh! |
| 22:59 | <Philip`> | (unless the W3C exists in the game too) |
| 22:59 | <gsnedders> | I dunno. The Web does. |
| 22:59 | <Philip`> | (which wouldn't surprise me) |
| 22:59 | <gsnedders> | Heck, Web 2.0 exists in the game! |
| 22:59 | <Lachy> | when I was younger, I had games on the super nintendo that took me several weeks, if not months to finish. What the hell is wrong with these game companies these days, making such short games? |
| 22:59 | <gsnedders> | (and Radio 2.0 too) |
| 22:59 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: +1 |
| 22:59 | <Philip`> | Lachy: The problem is with people spending too much time playing the game, so it's over too quickly :-) |
| 22:59 | <Hixie> | there are some pretty hilarious radio spots in gta4 talking about web 2.0 |
| 23:00 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: I completed the entire NFS: Carbon the weekend before last (as last weekend it was GTA4) |
| 23:00 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Totally. |
| 23:00 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Doesn't one mention [Something] 3.14? |
| 23:00 | jgraham__ | totally sucks at computer games |
| 23:00 | gsnedders | totally sucks at computer games with the exception of racing games, in which he rules |
| 23:00 | <Philip`> | Oblivion isn't short |
| 23:01 | <Philip`> | I think I've spent something like 200 hours on that |
| 23:01 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Yeah, but there are so few long games now :P |
| 23:01 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, yep, Web Pi is coming soon |
| 23:01 | gsnedders | must be up to around 40 hours on GTA4 since last Tues |
| 23:01 | <gsnedders> | This is ideal timing. Just before my exams :P |
| 23:01 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: It's Web Pi? Ah. |
| 23:02 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, didn't you get that's what 3.14 refers to? |
| 23:02 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: I was busy trying to kill someone in another car when I heard the 3.14 shortly after the mention of Web 2.0 |
| 23:02 | <Lachy> | I have a shirt that says "Wake me for Web 3.14" on it |
| 23:03 | <Lachy> | there's a photo of it on flickr |
| 23:03 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: Quite low precision π, then |
| 23:04 | <Lachy> | no, mathematicians realised that memorising an infinite number of decimal places was too hard, so they truncated it. |
| 23:04 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: memorising an infinite number of decimal places is hard? I never realised. |
| 23:04 | <jgraham__> | Maybe we could do HTML2π — circular edition after HTML5 |
| 23:04 | <gsnedders> | jgraham__: Not HTML2πr? |
| 23:05 | <gsnedders> | Then we know the size of our circle. |
| 23:05 | <jgraham__> | r=1; it's a unit circle (the best kind) |
| 23:05 | <Lachy> | 2π ~= 6.38, so that's a good version number to follow 5 |
| 23:05 | Philip` | sees 98 hours 37 minutes 55 seconds spent on Advance Wars: DS, which is probably quite high up his list of games-ordered-by-time-wasted-on-them |
| 23:06 | gsnedders | wonders which .+5 spec will be the first to 2π |
| 23:06 | <jgraham__> | Lachy: More like 6.28 :) |
| 23:06 | <gsnedders> | Gran Turismo is probably the highest for me |
| 23:06 | <jgraham__> | (allthough I let you off because of the ~) |
| 23:06 | <Lachy> | jgraham__, maybe in your universe :-) |
| 23:06 | Philip` | thinks more games need to provide play timers |
| 23:06 | gsnedders | doesn't want to know |
| 23:07 | <Philip`> | Ultima Online is probably the highest for me, since I played that for around a year, which is kind of scary |
| 23:08 | <gsnedders> | I played NFS:HP2 for ages, but I doubt that is above GT3/4 |