| 00:46 | <annevk> | gsnedders, I've no idea, do you have a URI? |
| 00:52 | <Hixie> | jgraham__: yt? |
| 00:56 | <Hixie> | Lachy: yt? |
| 00:56 | <Lachy> | Hixie, yo |
| 00:56 | <Hixie> | in 2005 you wanted some sort of namespacing system for profile="" |
| 00:56 | <Hixie> | do you still want me to reply to your feedback on that? |
| 00:56 | <Lachy> | I did? |
| 00:57 | <Hixie> | quoting: |
| 00:57 | <Hixie> | > If a solution can be found which allows for namespaces, but which does |
| 00:57 | <Hixie> | > not require them to be used in most cases, which doesn't introduce even |
| 00:57 | <Hixie> | > more problems, then I think that would probably be the best solution. |
| 00:57 | <Lachy> | ah, probably not. profile="" has proven useless. But if it were useful, I'd probably still agree with what I wrote |
| 00:58 | <Hixie> | k |
| 00:58 | <Lachy> | on second though, I don't like namespaces, so I change my mind |
| 00:58 | Hixie | likes not replying to e-mails where the person has changed their mind, since it avoids the problem of other people jumping on the bandwagon |
| 00:59 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 01:00 | <Lachy> | Hixie, do you have a simple command line script that submits a file to the csswg's spec post processor that I could use on my mac? My .bat file I use on windows won't work :-( |
| 01:01 | <Hixie> | i just use wget |
| 01:01 | <annevk> | curl -u USER:PASS -F file=@Overview.src.html -F group=none -F output=html -F method=file http://cgi.w3.org/member-bin/process.cgi -o Overview.html |
| 01:02 | <Lachy> | yeah, I just used curl, but I don't want to have to type all those parameters each time |
| 01:02 | <annevk> | my command line remembers it for me... |
| 01:02 | <Hixie> | so put them in a shell script |
| 01:02 | <Lachy> | how do I do that? |
| 01:02 | <Hixie> | i have an .update.sh file that contains the line above |
| 01:02 | Lachy | googles it |
| 01:02 | <Hixie> | (or rather, it's equivalent for wget) |
| 01:02 | <Hixie> | its |
| 01:02 | <Hixie> | its |
| 01:02 | Hixie | takes the apostrophe out back and shoots it |
| 01:03 | <Hixie> | shell scripts are just like batch files |
| 01:03 | <annevk> | you're showing typical GTA syndroms :p |
| 01:03 | <Hixie> | but they work on your shell (e.g. bash) instead of on the dos shell |
| 01:06 | <Lachy> | I have written shell scripts a few years ago, but that was in first year of uni 6 years ago and I haven't used linux much since then |
| 01:06 | <Lachy> | I've just forgotten all this stuff |
| 01:06 | <Hixie> | yeah well i never learnt it |
| 01:06 | <Hixie> | i make it up as i go along :-D |
| 01:06 | <Lachy> | woah, 7 years ago |
| 01:06 | <Lachy> | crap, I'm getting old now... |
| 01:06 | <Hixie> | and fall back on perl whenever i want to do something useful |
| 01:08 | <Lachy> | ok, is there anything special I need to do to make sure my .update.sh file never inadvertently gets commited to CVS, or is it enough that it's a hidden file? |
| 01:08 | <Hixie> | don't cvs add it |
| 01:08 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 01:08 | <Lachy> | ok |
| 01:26 | <Philip`> | Why ".update.sh" and not just "update.sh"? |
| 01:27 | <Hixie> | so that you can't download it on my site |
| 01:27 | <Hixie> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/.update.sh |
| 01:27 | <Hixie> | i block anything starting with a dot |
| 01:27 | <Hixie> | also so it doesn't appear in the middle of directory listings |
| 01:27 | <Philip`> | Aha |
| 01:29 | <Philip`> | Lachy: You can also create a .cvsignore file in a directory (as in http://docs.freebsd.org/info/cvs/cvs.info.cvsignore.html ) to make cvs automatically ignore particular files |
| 01:31 | Hixie | drives the final nail into profile=""'s coffin |
| 01:34 | Lachy | waits for people to try and pull that nail out |
| 01:44 | <Lachy> | ok, looks like that nails in pretty tight. Which section is next? |
| 01:44 | <Hixie> | any requests? |
| 01:45 | <Lachy> | hmm, let me check the issues list... |
| 01:46 | <Facedown> | Hixie - were you the vim user? |
| 01:46 | <Hixie> | no |
| 01:46 | <Facedown> | oh |
| 01:46 | <Hixie> | emacs all the way |
| 01:46 | <Facedown> | hehe |
| 01:46 | <Hixie> | though i hear someone implemented vi in javascript |
| 01:46 | <Facedown> | indeed |
| 01:46 | <Facedown> | its slow but its functional |
| 01:46 | <Facedown> | pretty amazing |
| 01:46 | <Facedown> | just like the mario game |
| 01:46 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 01:47 | <Facedown> | will i get killed if i ask a ie6/layout question in here? |
| 01:47 | <Facedown> | heh |
| 01:47 | <Hixie> | no |
| 01:47 | <Facedown> | s/killed/stoned |
| 01:47 | <Hixie> | though people might not be able to help :-) |
| 01:47 | <Facedown> | I'm trying to absolutely position the navigation element on top of #around-content which is floated and has width of 100%. The reason for the float and width is because I'm using that as a wrapper for a negative margin layout. IE6 seems to hide the nav (probably underneath) the floated el if it has a width of 99.6% or higher -> http://pastie.caboo.se/190178 |
| 01:48 | <Hixie> | i recommend trying another browser |
| 01:48 | <Facedown> | heh |
| 01:48 | <Hixie> | told you we might not be able to help :-P |
| 01:50 | <htmlfivedotnet> | facedown: I think you'll need to set the height |
| 01:51 | <Lachy> | I don't have IE6 available to test it, so I can't help |
| 01:51 | htmlfivedotnet | boots virtualbox |
| 01:51 | htmlfivedotnet | recompiles virtual box for 2.6.24-17 |
| 01:51 | <Lachy> | Hixie, how about finishing off the semantics-phrasing-* folders? |
| 01:51 | <Facedown> | htmlfivedotnet - why height? |
| 01:51 | <Facedown> | hmm |
| 01:52 | <htmlfivedotnet> | because you're using IE6 lol |
| 01:52 | <Facedown> | height triggers layout.. i dont see how it could make it show up |
| 01:52 | <Facedown> | position:absolute already triggers layout by default though |
| 01:53 | <Hixie> | Lachy: any in particular? |
| 01:53 | <htmlfivedotnet> | well try it out, if it doesn't work, you can flame me lol |
| 01:53 | <Facedown> | will do |
| 01:53 | <htmlfivedotnet> | i'm booting up my winxp to try a few things |
| 01:53 | <htmlfivedotnet> | but i have to recompile, because i upgraded my kernel |
| 01:54 | <Philip`> | htmlfivedotnet: You wouldn't get all these kernel problems if you just used Windows |
| 01:54 | <Lachy> | Hixie, didn't you already do the -abbr ones recently? |
| 01:54 | <Lachy> | I thought you removed folders and their messages once they were dealt with |
| 01:55 | <htmlfivedotnet> | Philip`: True |
| 01:57 | <Hixie> | Lachy: i do |
| 01:57 | <Hixie> | Lachy: if there is still a folder, it means there was more feedback |
| 01:57 | <Hixie> | there usually is new feedback immediately after i deal with a section |
| 01:59 | <Lachy> | you could clear out the datatemplates folder now, since there's only 2 in there and the sectino was dropped. |
| 02:00 | <Hixie> | i want to wait until i drop repetition blocks |
| 02:00 | <Lachy> | ok |
| 02:00 | <Hixie> | otherwise people think one is in and the other is not |
| 02:01 | <Lachy> | what about accesskey? Any idea what you're going to do about that yet? |
| 02:02 | <Hixie> | i don't know what to do about accesskey |
| 02:02 | <Lachy> | it would be nice if the issues list displayed the dates, so I could more easily tell which were new discussions and which are old |
| 02:02 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 02:02 | <Hixie> | it shouldn't matter :-) |
| 02:03 | <Philip`> | Lachy: You could write a script that correlates the message-IDs against the list archives to work out exactly when each message was posted |
| 02:03 | <Lachy> | Philip`, I'm too lazy for that |
| 02:04 | <Philip`> | You could just add it to http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/cgi/issues.cgi/source if you wanted :-) |
| 02:05 | <Lachy> | I would have to learn perl first |
| 02:05 | <Philip`> | It's just like Python but with some symbols added |
| 02:05 | <Lachy> | and since the syntax of perl is incomprehensible, that doesn't seem likely any time soon |
| 02:05 | <Philip`> | It's not at all incomprehensible :-( |
| 02:07 | <htmlfivedotnet> | english is incomprehensible to those who have never tried to learn it. |
| 02:07 | <htmlfivedotnet> | but then again, even those who have tried might still say the same |
| 02:07 | <Lachy> | woah, "open my $f, $0 or die" is a bit demanding isn't it? Couldn't you say please instead of threatening? |
| 02:09 | <Hixie> | that's better written as my $f; open($f, '<', $0) or die; |
| 02:09 | <Hixie> | but frankly that's pretty obscure perl |
| 02:09 | <Hixie> | whoever wrote that clearly doesn't have good perl readability guidelines |
| 02:09 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 02:09 | <Philip`> | I disagree with your judgement of "better" :-) |
| 02:10 | <htmlfivedotnet> | Philip`: I get a higher "windows experience index" score when running Vista in a virtual machine, then i do when i install it directly. obviously, not in the video, but everything else is about 25% higher |
| 02:10 | <Philip`> | There's no point in wasting semicolons and brackets |
| 02:10 | <Philip`> | htmlfivedotnet: Maybe the virtual machine is running the virtual clock 25% slower than real-time? :-) |
| 02:11 | <htmlfivedotnet> | Philip`: Damn. You got me. |
| 02:12 | <Hixie> | Philip`: does opening $0 open the __DATA__ stream or does it open the script itself? |
| 02:12 | <Lachy> | htmlfivedotnet, that's probably because the virtual machine software your using is a slow piece of crap. Are you using the Microsoft VirtualMachine? |
| 02:12 | <Philip`> | Hixie: $0 is just the script's filename, so it reads it as a normal file and doesn't do anything clever |
| 02:12 | <Lachy> | Virtual PC, I mean |
| 02:13 | <htmlfivedotnet> | Lachy: Yeah. I'm running it in Wine lol |
| 02:13 | <Philip`> | (Not a particularly robust way of reading the script, since the working directory might be elsewhere, but it works for this CGI thing) |
| 02:14 | <Hixie> | Philip`: k |
| 02:14 | <Hixie> | so er, why are you reading your own script? :-) |
| 02:14 | <Hixie> | that's pretty universally not good practice in _any_ language :-P |
| 02:14 | <Lachy> | ah, ok. You should try VMWare, if it's available for Linux. I use VMWare Fusion on Mac, and it's great. |
| 02:14 | <Philip`> | Hixie: So that http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/cgi/issues.cgi/source works |
| 02:14 | <Hixie> | oh, i see |
| 02:14 | <Hixie> | yeah that seems fair enough |
| 02:15 | <othermaciej> | does anyone here know of cool looking web apps done with standards-based technology? |
| 02:15 | <Lachy> | htmlfivedotnet, or you could try a virtual machine program written natively for linux |
| 02:15 | <othermaciej> | (preferably ones that are actually useful, not just demos) |
| 02:16 | <htmlfivedotnet> | Lachy: I was kidding. I use virtualbox ose. mainly because i can apt-get install it |
| 02:16 | <Philip`> | I used to use VMware on Linux, but then I upgraded my kernel and couldn't get it to run without crashing my entire machine, so I gave up |
| 02:17 | <Lachy> | othermaciej, timwouldlickit.com is funny and useful :-) (though probably not qutie what you're looking for) |
| 02:18 | <htmlfivedotnet> | Philip`: it's just a matter of recompiling the module, and remembering where the heck the source files are to do so |
| 02:18 | <htmlfivedotnet> | othermaciej: there was one that would generate a random "web 2.0" startup company name, but i can't remember the name of it |
| 02:19 | <Lachy> | htmlfivedotnet, there are several of those |
| 02:19 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: without being able to use 'window' or XMLHttpRequest, it's hard to make a cool looking web app |
| 02:20 | <Hixie> | Lachy: ok, got rid of the phrasing folder |
| 02:20 | <Hixie> | not sure what to do about ruby |
| 02:20 | <Hixie> | (didn't get rid of hte phrasing subfolders) |
| 02:21 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: I would not consider either of those things an obstacle to consider something to be done with "standards-based technology" |
| 02:21 | <Hixie> | oh |
| 02:21 | <Hixie> | well then |
| 02:21 | <othermaciej> | I maily meant to say "not Flash" |
| 02:21 | <Hixie> | GMail! |
| 02:21 | <othermaciej> | as opposed to "only RECs" |
| 02:21 | <Hixie> | Google Maps! |
| 02:21 | <Hixie> | Google Calendar! |
| 02:21 | <Hixie> | GMail has flash for the IM part, but that's all |
| 02:22 | <Hixie> | Google Reader |
| 02:22 | <Philip`> | Microsoft Windows Live Local |
| 02:22 | <Hixie> | Google Docs (probably has flash for some of the comms stuff) |
| 02:22 | <Hixie> | in fact, http://www.google.com/options/ |
| 02:22 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 02:22 | <Lachy> | oh, I saw a list of the top 100 web apps a few weeks ago. I wonder if I can find that |
| 02:22 | <othermaciej> | GMail is useful but not all that cool looking |
| 02:23 | <Philip`> | Microsoft Office Live Workspace |
| 02:23 | <Philip`> | (Beta) |
| 02:27 | <htmlfivedotnet> | facedown: still there? |
| 02:28 | <Lachy> | Hixie, how come the phrasing folder is still showing up in the issues list then? |
| 02:28 | <Hixie> | the issues list is updated nightly |
| 02:28 | <Lachy> | ok |
| 02:28 | <Lachy> | I thought it was live |
| 02:28 | <Hixie> | no, that would kill my imap server |
| 02:28 | <htmlfivedotnet> | facedown: adding a "clear" to the nav element makes it show up. who knows why. it doesn't make any sense, but it worked |
| 02:29 | <Lachy> | wasn't it live originally? Did you take away that feature |
| 02:29 | <Philip`> | Hixie: Isn't IMAP designed to have clients maintain connections and get immediate notifications of changes? |
| 02:30 | <Hixie> | Philip`: probably |
| 02:30 | <Hixie> | Lachy: the voting is live |
| 02:30 | <Hixie> | Lachy: the list has always been static, though |
| 02:30 | <Hixie> | Philip`: but i have enough trouble with just my own imap clients connecting to this server... |
| 02:31 | <Philip`> | Hixie: Oh, okay |
| 02:31 | <Lachy> | ok, it's good that the voting is live. It's nice to be able to keep up with all the action as it happens there. |
| 02:31 | <Hixie> | hah |
| 02:32 | <Philip`> | How many issues have ever had multiple votes? |
| 02:34 | <Lachy> | there's 2 votes for mail in the microsyntaxes-numbers folder, and that puts it in the lead |
| 02:35 | <Hixie> | people seem to think that repeating their arguments is more effective than voting |
| 02:35 | <Hixie> | they're wrong |
| 02:35 | <Hixie> | it's certainly not more effective |
| 02:35 | <Hixie> | and may even be less effective, though the jury is still out on that one |
| 02:35 | <Philip`> | If they only post their argument once, they can only vote for it once |
| 02:36 | <Hixie> | voting for an argument twice _definitely_ has no more effect than voting for it once |
| 02:36 | <Philip`> | By posting multiple times they can vote on each instance, and they will combine into a single powerful super-vote |
| 02:36 | <Lachy> | Philip`, the votes don't add credibility to the argument, they only supposedly help with prioritisation |
| 02:37 | <Philip`> | Hanging around on IRC seems a more effective way to influence the spec's direction than voting |
| 02:37 | <Hixie> | if anything got real votes, it would indeed help prioritisation |
| 02:37 | <Lachy> | But, I question that since I voted for wf3-placeholder a long time ago, and it hasn't been touched |
| 02:37 | <Hixie> | webforms in general is blocked on anne and maciej |
| 02:37 | <Lachy> | yeah, I know |
| 02:37 | <othermaciej> | oh sure, blame me |
| 02:37 | <Philip`> | Maybe people should just vote on categories, not on individual messages |
| 02:37 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: :-P |
| 02:38 | <Lachy> | only 2 months till the forms-tf is finished |
| 02:38 | <Philip`> | since it's quite unlikely that several people will make the same choice out of three thousand possibilities |
| 02:38 | <Lachy> | then we'll get the results of all the amazing work they've been doing |
| 02:40 | <Philip`> | Have they decided yet whether HTML needs to support forms or not? |
| 02:41 | <Philip`> | I'm not sure native support for forms is worthwhile, since you can just emulate them with contentEditable and CSS and script |
| 02:41 | <Philip`> | (and use ARIA so it's accessible) |
| 02:42 | <Hixie> | the point of wf2 is to reduce the dependency on scripts |
| 02:42 | <Lachy> | what are the use cases that people are trying to solve with forms? Couldn't they be done more easily with an envelope and postage stamp? |
| 02:42 | <htmlfivedotnet> | Lachy: ... ? ... I agree. |
| 02:42 | Lachy | must be getting tired; his jokes are getting bad. |
| 02:43 | <Hixie> | i disagree with the premise of your argument |
| 02:43 | <Hixie> | :-P |
| 02:44 | <Philip`> | Hixie: Why is it pointful to reduce the dependency on scripts? |
| 02:44 | <Hixie> | it's easier to maintain scriptless markup |
| 02:44 | <Hixie> | generally speaking |
| 02:44 | <Hixie> | (except when the scriptless markup reaches the point of being script in another disguise, of course, like xpath and xforms actions) |
| 02:44 | <Philip`> | I could make a spec whose point is to reduces web apps' dependency on the letter W |
| 02:45 | <Philip`> | So the point of WF2 isn't to reduce the dependency on scripts, it's to make markup easier to maintain? :-) |
| 02:45 | <htmlfivedotnet> | and write |
| 02:45 | <Hixie> | that's just a general language design principle |
| 02:46 | <Philip`> | s/reduces/reduce/ |
| 02:46 | <Lachy> | Philip`, introducing new forms features to cover things that are commonly solved with scripts, such as datetime controls replacing calendar widgets, means that different authors won't have to spend time reimplementing them |
| 02:47 | <Philip`> | (I suppose the different is that there isn't an underlying useful point behind the point of reducing the W dependency) |
| 02:47 | <Philip`> | s/different/difference/ |
| 02:47 | Philip` | thinks he needs to go to sleep |
| 02:47 | <Lachy> | me too. I have to get up in 5 hours. |
| 02:47 | <Lachy> | good night |
| 02:48 | <htmlfivedotnet> | Philip`: I really don't think you're making any sense. I was trying to figure out what you were trying to figure out, but i figured out that you probably don't even know what you're trying to figure out |
| 02:49 | <Philip`> | htmlfivedotnet: The figuring-out process isn't useful if I know in advance what I'm going to have figured out by the end :-) |
| 02:49 | <Philip`> | s/htmlfivedotnet:/dcostalis:/ |
| 02:49 | <dcostalis> | lol |
| 02:50 | <dcostalis> | Philip`: is it my client, or am i still talking as htmlfivedotnet? |
| 02:51 | <Philip`> | dcostalis: My client says you're talking as dcostalis |
| 02:51 | <Philip`> | http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080507#l-341 agrees |
| 02:51 | Hixie | dons asbestos underwear |
| 02:52 | <Hixie> | ok lets see how many people i pissed off with my latest e-mail |
| 02:52 | Philip` | re-aims his flames for a headshot |
| 02:52 | <Hixie> | i didn't tell you where i donned it |
| 02:53 | <Philip`> | That is a disturbing image |
| 02:53 | <Hixie> | hah |
| 04:25 | <Hixie> | woot, crossed the 2500 barrier |
| 04:49 | <Facedown> | 2500? |
| 04:56 | <Hixie> | http://www.whatwg.org/issues/data.html |
| 05:02 | othermaciej | decides to try using the voting interface |
| 05:03 | <othermaciej> | I just voted to encourage Hixie to consider his own feedback |
| 05:03 | <othermaciej> | for some reason that feels a little surreal |
| 05:04 | <Hixie> | which one? |
| 05:04 | <othermaciej> | the icon one |
| 05:04 | <Hixie> | oh heh |
| 05:31 | <Hixie> | sqlite's handling of types is funny |
| 05:31 | <Hixie> | the documentation first says taht types are evil |
| 05:33 | <Hixie> | and then goes on to list many ways in which it supports types |
| 05:33 | <Hixie> | "In SQLite version 3, the type of a value is associated with the value itself, not with the column or variable in which the value is stored. (This is sometimes called manifest typing.) All other SQL databases engines that we are aware of use the more restrictive system of static typing where the type is associated with the container, not the value." |
| 05:33 | <Hixie> | yes that's also known as BEING COMPLIANT WITH THE SPEC |
| 05:34 | <Hixie> | that has to be the funniest way of saying "we're the only non-compliant implementation we know of" that i've ever seen |
| 05:36 | <roc___> | on trunk, both with and without my GM_ADVANCED patch, I get garbage for the line that uses the Courier bitmapped font. Is this something you have a fix for? |
| 05:37 | <jruderman> | weird. i thought static typing would be a huge help for perf in databases. |
| 05:37 | <roc___> | oo |
| 05:37 | <roc___> | ps |
| 08:05 | <zcorpan_> | hsivonen: http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?t=547022 |
| 08:18 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: thanks for the Validome link |
| 08:19 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: Validator.nu already check root namespace and mime concordance, but for some reason I may have forgotten SVG from the list. thank |
| 08:22 | <zcorpan_> | hsivonen: quite obviously, people don't understand what schema actually means, and so saying "using the schema for XHTML 1.0" when validating HTML 4.01 is confusing |
| 08:24 | <zcorpan_> | hsivonen: perhaps the preset chooser should say "HTML 4.01 Strict/XHTML 1.0 Strict" and the info should say which ever is appropriate when choosing automatically? |
| 08:25 | <zcorpan_> | (or the info can say "XHTML 1.0/HTML 4.01" too i guess) |
| 08:28 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: seems reasonable even if technically not exactly correct |
| 08:37 | <Hixie> | i don't think you need to prioritise technical accuracy in the ui, so long as you report th technically correct errors |
| 08:41 | <Hixie> | huh, WHATWG is also an acronym for "where have all the women gone" |
| 08:41 | <Hixie> | somewhat appropriate |
| 09:29 | annevk | reads http://www.w3.org/mid/Pine.LNX.4.62.0805070153400.15395⊙hdc |
| 09:29 | annevk | expects flame wars |
| 09:30 | <Hixie> | nothing except karl's e-mail so far |
| 09:30 | <Philip`> | That's what happens when you post flamebait :-p |
| 09:34 | <annevk> | 'Summary: profile="" doesn't work in practice so we have dropped it.' contradicts the clean-slate mantra |
| 09:35 | <Hixie> | no. html5 used to have it |
| 09:35 | <Hixie> | i then dropped it |
| 09:35 | <Hixie> | karl of course totally misunderstood what i meant by "doesn't work", as usual |
| 09:35 | <annevk> | ooh, it was in HTML5? interesting |
| 09:36 | <Hixie> | long ago |
| 09:36 | <annevk> | oh well, I don't care either way |
| 09:36 | <Hixie> | defined in a much more detailed way than html5, too |
| 09:37 | <Hixie> | html4 even |
| 09:40 | <zcorpan> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/2006-01-01/#profile |
| 09:41 | <Hixie> | yup |
| 09:47 | <Philip`> | Hixie: "doesn't work" is pretty vague - there are people who use the feature and it does what they want it to do and they are happy, so it does work for them |
| 09:48 | <Hixie> | it doesn't work for the reasons given in that e-mail -- namely that people don't use it |
| 09:50 | <Lachy_> | I wonder what Karl bases his claim on that "[profile] doesn't lead to any interoperability issues"? Would that be because user agents do absolutely nothing with it? Since, if they did something with it, it's more than likely they would have bugs. |
| 09:51 | <jgraham__> | It's pretty crazy that in 2008 I'm wasting my time reading email where people are trying to apply Latin grammar rules to English |
| 09:51 | <Philip`> | There's a non-zero amount of content that uses it, and a non-zero amount of tools that process it, and they interoperate when used together |
| 09:52 | <Philip`> | (I don't know if "non-zero" is larger than one, though) |
| 09:54 | <Philip`> | ...so (some) people do use it |
| 09:57 | <Hixie> | i don't believe anyone ever said it leads to interop issues |
| 10:15 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: http://forums.whatwg.org/ gives 500 |
| 10:16 | <Hixie> | really? |
| 10:16 | <Hixie> | the machine is basically idle |
| 10:16 | <zcorpan> | really |
| 10:19 | <Hixie> | configuration error |
| 10:19 | <Hixie> | ? |
| 10:20 | <Hixie> | cos seriously, the machine isn't doing anything right now |
| 10:20 | <annevk> | slightly offtopic but funny: http://diveintomark.org/archives/2008/05/07/when-the-fall-is-all-thats-left |
| 10:24 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: well, i can't tell, i just know that i get a 500 :) |
| 10:25 | <Hixie> | odd |
| 10:26 | <annevk> | loads for me |
| 10:26 | <Hixie> | wfm |
| 10:26 | <annevk> | empty your cache? |
| 10:27 | <annevk> | Hixie, should "cache" in http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/MetaExtensions be unendorsed? |
| 10:28 | <Hixie> | uh yeah |
| 10:28 | <Hixie> | my bad |
| 10:32 | <annevk> | though i think other wiki pages uses rejected instead |
| 10:32 | <annevk> | oh well, fixed |
| 10:33 | <zcorpan> | ah, loads fine now |
| 10:33 | <zcorpan> | (though i got 500 in different browsers so i think it was unrelated to the cache) |
| 10:35 | <annevk> | proxy cache? |
| 10:57 | <MikeSmith> | watching Crockford present "Javascript: The Good Parts" |
| 11:00 | <MikeSmith> | "the DOM is one of the worst APIs ever invented... Javascript is unfairly blamed for the awfulness of the DOM" |
| 11:05 | <Hixie> | well he's right about that |
| 11:05 | <annevk> | he says relying on semicolon insertion is bad :( |
| 11:05 | <hsivonen> | I use semicolon insertion all the time in JS |
| 11:06 | annevk | too |
| 11:06 | <Hixie> | the comments on mark's msn music drm shutdown post are funny |
| 11:06 | annevk | also uses the with operator for <canvas> |
| 11:06 | <Hixie> | "you say this now, but what if google ever shuts down a drm service! what would say then!" |
| 11:06 | <Hixie> | uh, hello, when we shut down google video's drm service we refunded everyone who'd ever bought anything. twice. |
| 11:07 | <Hixie> | let's see microsoft do that. |
| 11:07 | <hsivonen> | why not if (value) { ? |
| 11:10 | <annevk> | he also discourages blockless statements... |
| 11:10 | <tomg> | the YUI videos are an interesting mixture of very interesting and incredibly tedious |
| 11:10 | <annevk> | what happened with the lazy web? |
| 11:10 | <hsivonen> | he's right on that one |
| 11:13 | <hsivonen> | the V.nu tokenizer is intentionally full of fallthroughs |
| 11:13 | <annevk> | (for people reading the logs, some of the remarks here are only relevant if you attend the talk MikeSmith mentioned earlier) |
| 11:36 | <annevk> | wow, he does overdramatize it quite a bit |
| 11:52 | <hsivonen> | I hadn't noticed Mini 2 didn't have lists |
| 13:06 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: it's unclear to me whether strokeText() actually strokes or not |
| 13:06 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: does it? |
| 13:11 | <annevk> | it does |
| 13:11 | <annevk> | it's defined in terms of strokeStyle |
| 13:11 | <zcorpan> | "The strokeStyle attribute represents the color or style to use for the lines around shapes"? |
| 13:12 | <zcorpan> | what if it's not possible to stroke for a particular font, as is the case apparently on mobiles? |
| 13:49 | <hsivonen> | it's taking ages to upload my slides... |
| 13:50 | <MikeSmith> | crap network |
| 14:01 | <hsivonen> | it's no longer controversial to say that XSD 1.0 sucks |
| 14:02 | <hsivonen> | now the audience laughs |
| 14:02 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: which session? |
| 14:02 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: Mike Kay on XSD 1.1 |
| 14:03 | <MikeSmith> | ah |
| 14:10 | <annevk> | zcorpan, dunno, fix mobiles? allow some other behavior? |
| 14:14 | <hsivonen> | so far it seems to me that people who don't want the PSVI should use RNG and Schematron instead of XSD 1.1 |
| 14:15 | <hsivonen> | now assertions are going to be a streamability problem for XSD too |
| 14:18 | <hsivonen> | give users the rope. let them hang themselves" |
| 14:23 | <Lachy> | cool. I've just been asked to do an interview on HTML5 for a podcast on boagworld.com |
| 14:25 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: does Opera PR allow you to talk with journalists? |
| 14:25 | <Lachy> | I don't know |
| 14:25 | <Lachy> | I will have to check |
| 14:25 | <Lachy> | I haven't accepted yet |
| 14:30 | <hsivonen> | quality of error messages will be a problem and a differentiating factor for impls |
| 14:31 | <zcorpan> | http://forums.whatwg.org/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=285 - spam? |
| 14:32 | <annevk> | looks like it, yes |
| 14:32 | <zcorpan> | he's been online on the forum every time i've checked the past few days. interesting way to spam |
| 14:33 | <annevk> | that makes him one page away from the final link |
| 14:34 | <annevk> | maybe he just keeps a lot of tabs open |
| 14:34 | <zcorpan> | indeed, and harder to spot as being a spammer |
| 14:36 | hsivonen | wants electricity over IP for the laptop |
| 14:43 | <hsivonen> | David Orchard is talking about extension and versioning |
| 14:45 | <annevk> | Is he mentioning CSS and all too? |
| 14:45 | annevk | is in the lobby working on his slides |
| 14:46 | <hsivonen> | annevk: not yet but he's talking about forward compat |
| 14:48 | <hsivonen> | well-defined processing model mentioned |
| 14:50 | <annevk> | (i think the solution to extensions is to have a well-defined processing model and the solution to versioning is to not have any) |
| 14:50 | <hsivonen> | HTML5 a great example of doing forward compat |
| 14:50 | <hsivonen> | counter example XML 1.0 |
| 14:53 | <hsivonen> | annevk: so far this is good stuff |
| 14:54 | <annevk> | apart from the XML Schema? :) |
| 14:54 | <hsivonen> | annevk: not talking about schema yet |
| 15:00 | <hsivonen> | it's interesting how Dave is formalizing what people on this channel take intuitively and tacitly into account when designing stuff |
| 15:01 | <annevk> | that's prolly good for when we're not around anymore :) |
| 15:12 | <hsivonen> | now we got to XSD sucking totally on expressing this |
| 15:14 | <hsivonen> | "this is pretty gory" |
| 15:16 | <markpilgrim> | been off irc so long, somebody nicked my nick |
| 15:18 | <hsivonen> | "we don't wanna hear about SOAP, because that's evil" |
| 15:19 | <annevk> | nice |
| 15:27 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: this page from ralphm : |
| 15:27 | <MikeSmith> | http://ilabra.org/ |
| 15:27 | <MikeSmith> | see the "Liliana, our new pottery artisan is originally from Argentina." |
| 15:28 | <MikeSmith> | running through html5lib results in unexpected DOM |
| 15:30 | <MikeSmith> | <a href="href="http://www.earthnskystudio.com/Pottery.html"; >Page Title "> |
| 15:30 | <Philip`> | http://james.html5.org/cgi-bin/parsetree/parsetree.py?source=%3Ca+href%3D%22href%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.earthnskystudio.com%2FPottery.html%22+%26gt%3BPage+Title+%22%3ELiliana%2C+our+new+pottery+artisan+is+originally+from+Argentina%3C%2Fa%3E |
| 15:30 | <Philip`> | Why is that unexpected? |
| 15:31 | <Philip`> | Seems to be pretty much the same as Firefox and Opera |
| 15:32 | markpilgrim | wonders what hsivonen is watching/reading |
| 15:32 | <MikeSmith> | it shouldn't result in that mess :) |
| 15:32 | <MikeSmith> | it should do something nice |
| 15:33 | <Philip`> | IE silently removes the entire link and link text from that page |
| 15:33 | <Philip`> | MikeSmith: Why shouldn't it? |
| 15:34 | <Philip`> | Garbage in plus processing model highly constrained by backward compatibility concerns results in garbage out :-p |
| 15:34 | <MikeSmith> | hmm, well, I guess doing something with it is rather better than removing it entirely |
| 15:35 | <ralphm> | I'd had expected to at least have some valid DOM. I mean, " is not really a valid attribute name, is it? |
| 15:38 | <zcorpan> | ralphm: <foo "> is a parse error in both text/html and xml, and trying to create an attribute '"' with dom core apis will raise an exception, so yeah, it's probably not a valid attribute name |
| 15:39 | <zcorpan> | ralphm: (although it was a valid attribute name for <embed> in html5 a while ago) |
| 15:43 | <ralphm> | zcorpan: well, not all DOM implementations actually check their input on object creation. So in my specific case, I happily got an invalid DOM and only discovered the issue when serializing it to XML and sending it over the wire using XMPP. One could claim that that is the DOM implementation's fault, but it would be nice if html5lib wouldn't feed it in the first place, no? |
| 15:43 | <annevk> | markpilgrim, XTech 2008, http://2008.xtech.org/public/schedule/detail/530 |
| 15:43 | annevk | is not there |
| 15:43 | <Philip`> | ralphm: By "valid DOM", do you mean one that can be serialised to well-formed XML? |
| 15:44 | <ralphm> | Philip`, yeah |
| 15:44 | <ralphm> | Is that a wrong assumption? |
| 15:44 | <zcorpan> | ralphm: the serializer needs to do checks |
| 15:44 | <zcorpan> | ralphm: the dom allows things that are not serializable as xml |
| 15:44 | <zcorpan> | ralphm: e.g. comment with --> in data |
| 15:45 | <Philip`> | <html><foo:bar/></html> too |
| 15:46 | <ralphm> | Right, so your view is that html5lib is not at fault, and I should file a bug against the DOM implementation(s)? |
| 15:47 | <Philip`> | The DOM implementation ought to be able to represent things that aren't XML-well-formed, because that's necessary for compatibility with HTML content |
| 15:47 | <annevk> | Well, basically you would need to file a bug against the software that serializes a DOM to well-formed XML |
| 15:47 | <annevk> | (but from your comments it doesn't seem you use such a serializer) |
| 15:47 | annevk | isn't sure if there is one |
| 15:48 | <Philip`> | (and the DOM-to-XML serialiser should guarantee well-formedness for any arbitrary DOM) |
| 15:48 | zcorpan | might write such a serializer in js just for fun |
| 15:48 | <Philip`> | function serialiseDOMToWellFormedXML(dom) { return '<x/>' } |
| 15:48 | <annevk> | (yeah, if it throws an exception it's not the software you want) |
| 15:49 | <annevk> | (if it does that it doesn't do what it claims to do...) |
| 15:49 | <Philip`> | Any such serialiser is going to have to be lossy for at least some inputs |
| 15:49 | <Philip`> | Is there a nice way to define what lossiness is acceptable? |
| 15:49 | <zcorpan> | dom to xml 1.0 4th ed |
| 15:50 | <zcorpan> | configurable whether it should halt or alter infoset |
| 15:51 | <zcorpan> | what does TagSoup do? |
| 16:02 | <gsnedders> | annevk: http://w3.org/mid/E5851D3C-1B2C-49F0-9A23-61A56DD4A4FC⊙gc |
| 16:40 | <annevk> | room for hsivonen's talk is near empty :( |
| 16:40 | <annevk> | it's pretty obvious people don't care about validation |
| 16:43 | <othermaciej> | annevk: have you seen the File IO spec that chaals just posted? |
| 16:43 | <annevk> | yeah, I wasn't involved in it |
| 16:43 | <virtuelv> | othermaciej: I wrote most of it |
| 16:43 | <othermaciej> | virtuelv: it looks like a giant security hole |
| 16:43 | <othermaciej> | just replied to the list in more detail |
| 16:44 | <virtuelv> | othermaciej: how so? |
| 16:45 | <othermaciej> | virtuelv: see my email for some examples of security risks |
| 16:45 | <annevk> | one of the things that is unclear from chaals' message is that I believe this is not intended for Web applications but for widgets |
| 16:45 | <annevk> | so it's not entirely clear how it replaces "file upload" |
| 16:45 | <othermaciej> | if it is not meant for Web applications then I guess I am not as worried about security risks, but I also do not see how it is relevant to the group |
| 16:45 | <virtuelv> | othermaciej: in the context of web pages served over HTTP, I agree with you |
| 16:46 | <virtuelv> | for widgets/gadgets, not so much |
| 16:46 | <othermaciej> | virtuelv: ok, nothing in the spec makes clear that it is not meant to be exposed to web apps served over HTTP |
| 16:46 | <othermaciej> | "This document describes an interface for an abstract File I/O interface where web applications can interact with a file system, without any prior knowledge about the underlying filesystem." |
| 16:46 | <virtuelv> | othermaciej: that needs to be remedied, I agree |
| 16:47 | <virtuelv> | btw, all browseFor* methods have UI interaction restrictions in our implementation |
| 16:50 | <othermaciej> | virtuelv: when I read the spec it almost gave me a heart attack |
| 16:50 | <othermaciej> | because I assumed Web application was meant to refer to Web apps on the Web |
| 16:50 | <virtuelv> | heh |
| 16:52 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen now doing validator.nu presentation at XTech |
| 16:53 | <othermaciej> | I'm not sure an API that is only for locally installed applications is in scope for Web API WG though |
| 16:56 | <virtuelv> | othermaciej: it sort of is, given the merge between appformats and webapi |
| 16:58 | <othermaciej> | our charter says: "Although the primary focus will be handling of content deployed over the Web, the deliverables of the Web Applications Working Group should take into consideration uses of Web technologies for other purposes, such as the purpose of building user interfaces on devices; for example, user interfaces in multimedia devices such as digital cameras and in industrial information tools such RFID/barcode scanners and checko |
| 16:58 | <othermaciej> | (the new charter) |
| 16:58 | <othermaciej> | it also says: "Furthermore, the Web Applications Working Group deliverables must address issues of accessibility, internationalization, mobility, and security." |
| 16:59 | <othermaciej> | I guess it could be considered in scope, though I'm not very interested personally in APIs that aren't for the WEb |
| 17:13 | <gsnedders> | othermaciej: I may be wrong, but I think there is no such thing as a split infinitive in German |
| 17:14 | <gsnedders> | (totally useless comment) |
| 17:15 | <virtuelv> | othermaciej: I take it "widgets != web" for you then? |
| 17:16 | <Philip`> | German puts verbs in crazy places |
| 17:16 | <Philip`> | "Ich kann blah-blah-blah-blah verb" etc |
| 17:17 | <Philip`> | It's too easy to forget what you're talking about before the end of the sentence :-( |
| 17:21 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Better than Latin where the verb can be anywhere, though is typically at the end |
| 17:24 | <gsnedders> | Philip`, jgraham__: Seeming jgraham__ wanted somewhere nearer the IoA how about outside the front of Selwyn? |
| 17:25 | gsnedders | can't get much closer without going away from where he knows |
| 17:25 | Philip` | wonders where Selwyn is |
| 17:25 | <gsnedders> | Oh dear… |
| 17:26 | gsnedders | really does like Philip`'s knowledge of Cambridge after he's been there for 3.5 years |
| 17:26 | <Philip`> | Oh, right, I walk past it twice every day |
| 17:26 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Grange Road, between West Road and Sidwick Avenue |
| 17:26 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: That's what makes it even worse. |
| 17:27 | <gsnedders> | It's between Newham Croft and the faculty of Comp.Sci. :P |
| 17:27 | gsnedders | may be in his late grandmother's flat before we meet up in which case he's more or less there |
| 17:28 | <gsnedders> | (the flat is in one of the blocks in the bit opposite Selwyn) |
| 17:29 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: You have any thought about time? |
| 17:29 | <Philip`> | Selwyn doesn't really seem any closer than King's |
| 17:29 | <Philip`> | (Maybe five minutes or so) |
| 17:29 | <Philip`> | (unless I'm just misreading the map badly) |
| 17:29 | <Philip`> | but anyway, doesn't make much difference to me :-) |
| 17:30 | <gsnedders> | I guess from up there it makes little difference |
| 17:30 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: No |
| 17:31 | gsnedders | has no idea how hard it'll be to get somewhere to eat on a Friday night at this time of year |
| 17:32 | Philip` | neither |
| 17:32 | gsnedders | doesn't normally go down when it is his term time :P |
| 17:33 | Philip` | normally just eats in college or at home, since those are easy and inexpensive :-) |
| 17:33 | <Philip`> | s/normally/always/ |
| 17:33 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: We can all come to your home if you want :P |
| 17:34 | <Philip`> | Probably a bad idea :-p |
| 17:37 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: We can just meet by King's if that's easier :P |
| 17:37 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: More places to eat around there, too |
| 17:39 | Philip` | shrugs |
| 19:23 | <gsnedders> | GTA4 is far too short. Eight days and thirty-five hours for the first run through of the story-line. |
| 19:24 | <Philip`> | Eight days and thirty-five hours? Isn't that just nine days and eleven hours? |
| 19:24 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: I mean thirty-five hours of actually playing, over eight days. |
| 19:24 | <Philip`> | Ah |
| 19:25 | <gsnedders> | 4.375 hours per day, average (eek) |
| 19:25 | <Philip`> | That's not showing much dedication to the game |
| 19:26 | Philip` | has got dragged back into Advance Wars again :-( |
| 19:26 | <Philip`> | (I was looking at it yesterday and noticed most of the characters were only at level 2, so I had to get them a bit more experience...) |
| 19:26 | <gsnedders> | Oh dear… |
| 19:27 | gsnedders | hopes he doesn't need to drag Philip` to supper :P |
| 19:28 | <Philip`> | (The problem is that I'm not very good at strategy, or at tactics, so I just throw units at the enemy for an hour until they either get worn down or defeat me) |
| 20:22 | <othermaciej> | does anyone here know what virtualev's real life name is? |
| 20:27 | <othermaciej> | any Opera people around? |
| 20:27 | <Philip`> | othermaciej: http://virtuelvis.com/ |
| 20:28 | <othermaciej> | Philip`: thanks! |
| 20:59 | <Hixie> | yeah Philip` your comments seem fine |
| 20:59 | <Hixie> | though comments sent to the public-html list are more likely to fall through the cracks |
| 20:59 | <Hixie> | so if you want a guarenteed reply, you might want to use the whatwg list |
| 21:00 | <Hixie> | (the way to get a guarenteed reply with the htmlwg is to use the issues list) |
| 21:06 | <Philip`> | Hixie: If my comments get lost or ignored, I believe I'll notice that at some point in the future and can bring them up again; so in the meantime I'd prefer to attempt to contribute to the ratio of technical discussion on public-html, rather than giving up on it yet :-) |
| 21:11 | <Dashiva> | Hixie: Do you know anything of the process to return to invited expert status after being part of a Member |
| 21:11 | <Dashiva> | +? |
| 21:13 | <jgraham__> | gsnedders: I think Kings is better. Selwyn is in the middle of nowhere |
| 22:00 | <Hixie> | Dashiva: no idea |
| 22:00 | <Hixie> | Dashiva: ask mikesmith |
| 22:01 | <Dashiva> | Will do |
| 22:03 | <hasather> | Dashiva: Chaals fixed that for me |
| 22:05 | <Dashiva> | I figure there's little point in asking to join Google if I'm not going to be doing w3c work :) |
| 22:07 | <gsnedders> | jgraham__: ping |
| 22:08 | <jgraham__> | gsnedders: Pong |
| 22:09 | <gsnedders> | jgraham__: See prior discussion. Short version: It's probably best to meet somewhere like King's. |
| 22:09 | <gsnedders> | jgraham__: Wait, that last thing was you. |
| 22:09 | <gsnedders> | I'm slow. |
| 22:09 | gsnedders | is half asleep here |
| 22:10 | <jgraham__> | Yeah, I suggest Kings at 7, unless that's too late for you. Finding somewhere to eat will be trivial |
| 22:10 | <gsnedders> | The front of King's, I assume? |
| 22:11 | <Philip`> | Which part of the front? |
| 22:11 | <gsnedders> | 7 is fine by me. |
| 22:11 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: King's Parade? |
| 22:11 | <jgraham__> | By the postbox |
| 22:11 | <gsnedders> | There's a postbox there? I guess I'll have to see it when I get there. |
| 22:11 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: That's a whole street, which is pretty vague :-p |
| 22:12 | <Philip`> | It only took me six months to discover the postbox |
| 22:12 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: But that's the front! :P |
| 22:12 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Yeah, but your knowledge of Cambridge, well, leaves plenty to be desired :) |
| 22:12 | <jgraham__> | http://www.flickr.com/photos/andrewdunn/490994558/ |
| 22:13 | <gsnedders> | Right hand side, when facing it, then? |
| 22:13 | <jgraham__> | (it's quite a distinctive postbox :) |
| 22:13 | <Philip`> | Hint: It's tall and red |
| 22:13 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: OMFG. |
| 22:14 | <jgraham__> | If it helps, I will be the person who looks a bit like I do on the internet |
| 22:14 | <gsnedders> | jgraham__: Which is to say, what? |
| 22:15 | <jgraham__> | Mainly composed of ascii |
| 22:15 | <gsnedders> | http://flickr.com/photos/gsnedders/2396366112/in/set-72157604424683450/ |
| 22:15 | <gsnedders> | c'est moi. |
| 22:15 | <jgraham__> | (seriously, if you search flickr you should see my photo without much trouble) |
| 22:16 | gsnedders | concludes looking through jgraham__'s photos for him isn't overly successful |
| 22:16 | <gsnedders> | Ah, OK. The guy who looks like a physicist who does a lot online. |
| 22:17 | <jgraham> | ?! |
| 22:17 | <gsnedders> | :P |
| 22:18 | jgraham | wonders which photo /that/ came from |
| 22:19 | <gsnedders> | All of them in general |
| 22:23 | <jgraham> | Fair enough |
| 22:24 | <jgraham> | (although I don't think I look like many actual physicists) |
| 22:37 | gsnedders | should be able to write more of HTTP5 on the train on Fri/Sun |
| 22:39 | <gsnedders> | markpilgrim: all the Atom autodiscovery tests on ragingplatypus.com are broken |
| 23:01 | Hixie | gets some gold-level valuable feedback from people at Google working on pages that use contentEditable |
| 23:02 | gsnedders | wants platinum-level valuable feedback |
| 23:02 | <gsnedders> | Then I can sell it! Mwhahaha! |
| 23:04 | <Hixie> | your market would consist of just me |
| 23:05 | <gsnedders> | I know, that's slightly problematic. |
| 23:05 | <gsnedders> | You don't have much competition pushing the value up. |
| 23:06 | <gsnedders> | That's it. I'm writing HTML 2π. |
| 23:06 | <tommorris> | You are competing with the XHTML 2 Working Group. ;) |
| 23:07 | <Hixie> | i recommend not taking on more work than you can do :-P |
| 23:07 | <Hixie> | given you're already doing HTTP5 and the spec preprocessor :-) |
| 23:07 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Already done that :P |
| 23:08 | <gsnedders> | GTA4, HTTP5, spec-gen, participating in far too many WGs, writing short stories. Oh, and school. |
| 23:08 | <gsnedders> | Or should I say, Secondary5. |
| 23:08 | <gsnedders> | :P |
| 23:08 | <gsnedders> | Next year of school sucks. Sixth year! 5 > *. |
| 23:10 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Oh, and meaning to help with XML5, but never finding the time to do so. |
| 23:12 | <tommorris> | XML 5? For chrissakes, Sun's already done the version number thing. Stop it already. :) |
| 23:12 | <gsnedders> | tommorris: And Bible5, too. |
| 23:13 | <gsnedders> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2007Jun/0008.html |
| 23:14 | <tommorris> | "Happy shall USER AGENT be that dasheth BLOCK LEVEL ELEMENTS against the rocks." |
| 23:15 | <gsnedders> | tommorris: that doesn't look like en-gb-x-Hixie to me |
| 23:18 | <tommorris> | The Old Testament specification seems quite clear - kill gay people, don't eat shellfish and don't wear cloths of more than two types of fabric. I blame liberal parsing rules. |
| 23:18 | <hsivonen> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator/2008May/0045.html |
| 23:19 | <Hixie> | what am i looking for? |
| 23:26 | <gsnedders> | tommorris: No, it's not as simple as gay people. Men who have sex with other men. |
| 23:26 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: Fun |
| 23:26 | <tommorris> | that's defined in the accompanying normative BNF segment and referenced test suite |
| 23:27 | <gsnedders> | tommorris: And besides, Jesus depreciated the old testament |
| 23:27 | <gsnedders> | Also, don't sleep with a women and her mother. That's punishable by death too. |
| 23:27 | <tommorris> | Jesus: the original quirks mode parser. |
| 23:28 | <gsnedders> | Leviticus 20 is always nice. |
| 23:47 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: If not taking on more work than you can do is your advice for today, can I have some more daily advice tomorrow? :P |
| 23:48 | <Hixie> | no, i have too much work tomorrow |
| 23:49 | <gsnedders> | Then it isn't daily advice :( |
| 23:49 | <gsnedders> | Weekly? |
| 23:52 | <hsivonen> | should I reply to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008May/0090.html or just let t be? |
| 23:52 | <Hixie> | depends whether by replying you can advance your agenda |
| 23:53 | <Hixie> | (e.g. whether you can make the web better) |
| 23:53 | <Dashiva> | Wouldn't that be 'our' agenda, not just his? :) |
| 23:53 | <gsnedders> | Dashiva: No, our agenda is making sure we're awesome. Is it not? |
| 23:53 | <Hixie> | i wouldn't pretend to ask him to reply to advance mine |
| 23:54 | <gsnedders> | Or to make Hixie rich and famous? |
| 23:54 | <Dashiva> | I thought he was both already |
| 23:54 | <Dashiva> | And I don't need htmlwg to convince me I'm awesome :P |
| 23:54 | <gsnedders> | Dashiva: You're awesome. |
| 23:54 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: that's the thing. I don't knwo if replying and explaining the positive/negative/zero-level stuff again helps |
| 23:54 | <hsivonen> | though the book argument seems bogus |
| 23:55 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: well, notice how i'm basically given up on that thread |
| 23:55 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: i read all the comments still, but i don't have anything to say that i haven't already said |
| 23:55 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: and nothing that has been said recently has been new in any way |
| 23:55 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: so it hasn't affected by conclusions (which were based on the earlier arguments) |
| 23:56 | <Dashiva> | I'm tempted to translate that post above as "Nobody cares about WCAG", but objectively I know it's just spite :) |