| 00:11 | <gsnedders> | What does <> mean in SGML? |
| 00:12 | <Hixie> | start tag |
| 00:12 | <gsnedders> | Yeah, but a start tag of what |
| 00:13 | <Philip`> | Maybe it's like </> and can be inferred from context |
| 00:13 | <Philip`> | s//sometimes/ |
| 00:13 | <Philip`> | (and when it can't be inferred, I assume bad things happen) |
| 00:13 | <Dashiva> | <ul><> implies <li>? |
| 00:14 | <Philip`> | <ul><>Item 1<>Item 2</ul> could make sense |
| 00:14 | <Philip`> | I might just be making this up, though |
| 00:16 | tommorris | shudders at the thought of SGML |
| 00:16 | gsnedders | realises he has the SGML handbook beside him |
| 00:16 | <Dashiva> | Masochist |
| 00:17 | <Philip`> | http://www.google.com/search?q=%3C%3E :-( |
| 00:17 | <tommorris> | prefers standards that have an 'X' in the name, if only because X sounds cool |
| 00:17 | <Dashiva> | XSGML |
| 00:17 | <Hixie> | yes it's the start tag of whatever only tag is allowed at that point |
| 00:18 | <gsnedders> | And if more than one tag is allowed behaviour is undefined, I guess? |
| 00:18 | <Hixie> | i forget |
| 00:18 | <Hixie> | it's been years since i read the spec |
| 00:19 | <Philip`> | tommorris: Do you prefer TORX-head screws too? |
| 00:19 | <tommorris> | so long as there is a DTD available for the screwdriver |
| 00:20 | <Philip`> | Dusty tool drawer? |
| 02:44 | <Hixie> | man, merging wf2 is gonna be such a lot of work |
| 04:31 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: I love that your post had a "ratholes" section |
| 05:07 | <Hixie> | no comment |
| 05:33 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: in some feedback you wrote "The ratio subsection of common microsyntaxes does not do what the rest of the numbers do: define what a valid number is" |
| 05:33 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: that's because there's no text that uses that concept |
| 05:33 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: so defining it would be pointless |
| 06:04 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: similarly, the reason it doesn't report errors is that there is nothing to report |
| 06:52 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: i am similarly ignoring other e-mails that request editorial changes that i don't think would make the spec better |
| 06:52 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: e.g. "Ratios algorithm continues beyond data (part of detailed review of common microsyntaxes)" |
| 08:13 | <hsivonen> | I wonder if I could still get a lightning talk slot |
| 08:16 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: we have about 9 people signed up already, so maybe not |
| 08:16 | <hsivonen> | ok |
| 08:17 | <MikeSmith> | but if you have time, may be worth preparing some slides anyway |
| 08:17 | <MikeSmith> | last year we had a few people cancel |
| 08:26 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: ok |
| 09:01 | <othermaciej> | hi annevk |
| 09:02 | <annevk> | morning |
| 09:07 | <MikeSmith> | http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/chats/transcripts/08_0417_ez_ie8.mspx |
| 09:07 | <MikeSmith> | not much interesting there |
| 09:08 | <MikeSmith> | except the usual "At the moment, we're not ready to talk about features in upcoming releases, but we appreciate the input." any time anybody asks anything about standards support they currently lack |
| 09:08 | <MikeSmith> | plus some misrepresentations |
| 09:10 | <MikeSmith> | e.g., Eric Law saying that the Access Control spec "remains under heavy edit" |
| 09:11 | <MikeSmith> | and that that was why Mozilla "pulled support for the feature in their latest beta" |
| 09:11 | <othermaciej> | well, that was kind of what Mozilla sort of said |
| 09:13 | annevk | is presenting on Access Control today |
| 09:14 | <MikeSmith> | nifty rationalization: |
| 09:14 | <MikeSmith> | [[ |
| 09:14 | <MikeSmith> | Cyrar [MSFT] (Expert): |
| 09:14 | <MikeSmith> | qwert666: Stop saying "we're not ready to talk about features for upcoming releases" all the time and be more open about what you are considering to do. |
| 09:14 | <MikeSmith> | Answer: Hey Opaque, sorry for the frustration. We generally have a policy about commenting on features that are not built, tested and ready for release. Suppose that we did comment on a feature that was important to you, but then had to cut it because quality or some other blocking factor. If you had made business plans around that feature - I imagine that you would be pretty frustrated. Our policy gives our customers more predictability in |
| 09:15 | <MikeSmith> | their planning |
| 09:15 | <MikeSmith> | ]] |
| 09:15 | <othermaciej_> | MikeSmith: Apple has the same policy sort of - so I can't cast the first stone |
| 09:17 | <othermaciej> | MikeSmith: although by WebKit being open source we have managed to push the window for engine features back from "released to customers" to "checked in" |
| 09:18 | <MikeSmith> | yeah, exactly |
| 09:18 | <Philip`> | So they're saying their customers are stupid and will be confused by being given more information on which to base their business plans? :-) |
| 09:18 | <othermaciej> | but people do ask us "when will feature X from the WebKit nightlies make it into a Safari build" |
| 09:18 | <MikeSmith> | Philip`: yeah, kind of like the Bush administration justification for why they like to keep so much stuff secret |
| 09:18 | <othermaciej> | and we can't really answer |
| 09:18 | <Hixie> | microsoft have a policy of not talking about features that are not built, tested, and ready for release? |
| 09:19 | <Hixie> | since when?!?! |
| 09:19 | <othermaciej> | hmmm good point |
| 09:19 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: maybe that policy doesn't apply to whole new products or product lines |
| 09:20 | <Hixie> | how about, say, file systems? |
| 09:20 | <Hixie> | WinFS has been announced under various names since at least 1995 |
| 09:20 | <Hixie> | i remember reading about it when i was looking at being on the Win95 beta |
| 09:21 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej_: so IE team could do something just like Webkit vs Safari relationship .. that is, be open about what they have in development in the engine, but no guarantees if or when it actually will make it into IE |
| 09:21 | <othermaciej_> | dude that was totally ready |
| 09:21 | <othermaciej_> | WinFS was ready for the world |
| 09:21 | <othermaciej_> | but the world was not ready for it |
| 09:22 | <Hixie> | which time that it was pulled was it not ready? |
| 09:22 | <Hixie> | er i mean, was the world not ready? |
| 09:22 | MikeSmith | wonders if anybody knows John Hrvatin |
| 09:23 | <MikeSmith> | "...y name is John Hrvatin. I'm the program manager for developer tools, jscript engine integration, and HTML editing support." |
| 09:23 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: just wait until you see all the awesome things coming in Windows Mobile 9 and Windows 7 |
| 09:23 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: then you'll forget all about this |
| 09:23 | <Hixie> | mmm |
| 09:26 | <Philip`> | Seems like their unwillingness to talk about the future doesn't just apply to technical features - "As for any future cake plans, I'm afraid we consider all bakery related strategies highly confidential." |
| 09:27 | <othermaciej> | they sent the firefox guys a cake but they never sent us one at apple |
| 09:27 | <Philip`> | Did you ever send them one? |
| 09:28 | <othermaciej> | no, but they didn't send us one first |
| 09:29 | <Philip`> | Maybe they are waiting for you to make the first move |
| 09:31 | zcorpan_ | wonders where a 32768x32768 icon would be used |
| 09:31 | <zcorpan_> | or even 8192x8192 |
| 09:32 | <zcorpan_> | is it normal for .icns to have such sizes? |
| 09:42 | <Philip`> | zcorpan_: The largest I see out of about a hundred <link>ed .ico files is 48x48 |
| 09:43 | <Philip`> | I'm not aware of many desktop systems that expect 8K-wide icons |
| 09:43 | <Philip`> | though I thought there were at least some that could use vector (SVG) icons, for which size doesn't make sense |
| 09:45 | <Lachy> | Mac OSX icons go up to 512x512. 8192x8192 is bigger than most (if not all) desktop wallpapers! |
| 09:45 | <annevk> | if sizes is not specified does it mean any? |
| 09:45 | <annevk> | it also doesn't seem clear what happens when there's multiple icons with the same set of sizes |
| 09:46 | <annevk> | should the UA inspect them all, take the first, etc. |
| 09:46 | <annevk> | take the first non-broken |
| 09:46 | <zcorpan_> | annevk: not specified should mean unknown |
| 09:47 | <annevk> | how is that useful? |
| 09:47 | <annevk> | nm |
| 09:51 | <Hixie> | zcorpan_: it was a joke on the ridiculousness of mac "icons" these days (though apparently it went above everyone's heads :-P) |
| 09:52 | <zcorpan_> | Hixie: ah :) |
| 09:53 | Philip` | is surprised that .ico files (i.e. DIBs) aren't limited to 64Kx64K |
| 10:02 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Hey, you want my feedback from last summer to be useful!? |
| 10:02 | <Hixie> | some of it is :-) |
| 10:02 | <gsnedders> | Some of it finds major issues with the algorithms, actually. So some :) |
| 10:03 | gsnedders | is online as he is at home as there's no point in him even being at school before this essay is finished. |
| 10:03 | <gsnedders> | Fun :\ |
| 10:09 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Now I need to go and fix my test cases of that section :P |
| 10:10 | <Hixie> | can someone with IE send me the results of this test in IE? http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/flow/image-maps/004-demo.html |
| 10:11 | <zcorpan_> | Hixie: "'http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/flow/image-maps/004-demo.html'; is currently unavailable." |
| 10:11 | <Hixie> | o_O |
| 10:11 | <zcorpan_> | ah now it works.. |
| 10:12 | <Hixie> | probably my memory allocation a bit low |
| 10:12 | <zcorpan_> | 50%... |
| 10:12 | <Philip`> | Any particular versions of IE? |
| 10:12 | zcorpan_ | tests in ie8b |
| 10:13 | <zcorpan_> | acts as separatorU+0, U+20, U+2c, U+3b |
| 10:13 | <zcorpan_> | long list... Total for "acts like a decimal point": 17882 |
| 10:14 | <zcorpan_> | acts as digitU+30 - U+39 |
| 10:14 | <Hixie> | can you mail me the list? |
| 10:14 | <Hixie> | ian⊙hc |
| 10:14 | <zcorpan_> | sure |
| 10:14 | <Hixie> | thanks dude |
| 10:14 | <Philip`> | In IE8b1 I get "aborts parsing" at the end; in IE6 I get "<AREA shape=RECT coords=1,0,2,2>" at the end |
| 10:14 | <Philip`> | (and neither version has the other section) |
| 10:14 | <Hixie> | ooo |
| 10:14 | <Hixie> | mail me the IE6 list too :-) |
| 10:14 | <Hixie> | pretty please :-) |
| 10:14 | <Philip`> | This is IE6 in Wine so I don't know if that makes things go weird |
| 10:15 | <Hixie> | that's fine |
| 10:15 | <zcorpan_> | hmm ie8 hanged when i tried to select all :( |
| 10:15 | <Hixie> | huh |
| 10:15 | <Hixie> | that's what i got |
| 10:15 | <Hixie> | i figured it was a VMWare problem |
| 10:15 | <Hixie> | wtf |
| 10:16 | <gsnedders> | IE8b1 needs a bigger emphasis on the beta part :) |
| 10:16 | <zcorpan_> | ie6 doesnt' work for me |
| 10:16 | <Hixie> | script error? |
| 10:16 | <zcorpan_> | no ie6 never works for me. it doesn't load pages |
| 10:17 | <Philip`> | My IE6 doesn't load any UI, but the browser bit works fine |
| 10:17 | <hsivonen> | I think I need to ask the annual microformat question in a few minutes |
| 10:18 | <zcorpan_> | Hixie: does the page create many text nodes? |
| 10:18 | <Hixie> | yes |
| 10:18 | <zcorpan_> | Hixie: maybe that's what fucks up selection |
| 10:18 | <Hixie> | Philip`: thanks |
| 10:19 | <Hixie> | zcorpan_: yeah |
| 10:19 | <Hixie> | zcorpan_: quite possible |
| 10:19 | <Hixie> | ok i got the list from Philip`, that should do |
| 10:19 | <Philip`> | Hixie: Also sent the list from IE7 in real Windows, in case that's relevant |
| 10:20 | <Philip`> | I seem to get very different output in every version of IE |
| 10:20 | <Hixie> | Philip`: thanks |
| 10:21 | <Philip`> | I wonder if IE5.0 still works... |
| 10:21 | <Hixie> | wtf |
| 10:21 | <Hixie> | why would ie6 and ie7 give different results |
| 10:21 | <Philip`> | Alas, script error in IE5 :-( |
| 10:22 | <Philip`> | Hixie: Maybe they use system APIs to detect whether characters are decimal points, and those APIs are working differently? |
| 10:22 | <Hixie> | craazy |
| 10:22 | <zcorpan_> | Hixie: i managed to copy it now |
| 10:22 | <hsivonen> | annual question asked |
| 10:23 | <hsivonen> | answer: the microformat folks are lazy |
| 10:23 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: what's the question? "do you have a spec yet?" |
| 10:23 | <hsivonen> | yeah |
| 10:23 | <Philip`> | "Why are they called Microformats and not Mozformats?" |
| 10:23 | <Philip`> | or Appformats, which sounds like a reasonable name |
| 10:24 | <Lachy> | I have an interview about HTML5 next thursday evening for boagworld.com. I get to pick the topics that will be discussed. Any suggestions for what I should talk about? |
| 10:24 | <Hixie> | zcorpan_: did you mail the list from IE8? |
| 10:25 | <Hixie> | Lachy: you and the interviewer? or you and someone else? or? |
| 10:25 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: bringing parsing to non-browsing apps |
| 10:25 | <Hixie> | zcorpan_: nm, got them, thanks! |
| 10:26 | <Hixie> | ie8 is same as ie7, it seems |
| 10:26 | <zcorpan_> | Hixie: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008May/0015.html |
| 10:26 | <Hixie> | yeah i got it |
| 10:26 | <Hixie> | thanks |
| 10:26 | <Lachy> | Hixie, I don't understand your question. |
| 10:26 | <Hixie> | Lachy: are they interviewing you, or is this a panel discussion, or? |
| 10:26 | <Hixie> | Lachy: what's the context? |
| 10:26 | <Philip`> | Lachy: Do you know who the audience is? (Like do they already know of HTML5?) |
| 10:27 | <Lachy> | AFAIK, it's Paul Boag interviewing me. |
| 10:27 | <Philip`> | Hixie: They don't seem the same - I get quite different output from IE7 (on Win2K3) and IE8 (on Vista) |
| 10:27 | <Lachy> | boagworld.com seems to be a podcast aimed at web developers |
| 10:27 | <Hixie> | zcorpan_'s list was the same as yours as far as i could tell |
| 10:27 | <Lachy> | so they're likely to at least know what HTML is |
| 10:27 | <Hixie> | maybe it's OS-based |
| 10:28 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: That should be an em dash, not a hyphen! |
| 10:29 | <Hixie> | Lachy: i'd focus on the community we've built up |
| 10:29 | <Hixie> | Lachy: i think it's something that hasn't been widely recognised, and is probably the biggest achievement of the effort so far |
| 10:30 | <zcorpan_> | Hixie: if you do document.body.innerHTML=document.body.innerHTML then selection works fine |
| 10:30 | <Hixie> | zcorpan_: heh |
| 10:34 | <gsnedders> | zcorpan_: would not just normalising the Document object have the same affect? |
| 10:34 | <zcorpan_> | gsnedders: how do you normalise the Document object? |
| 10:35 | <Lachy> | Hixie, ok. Do you mean how things like the blog, wiki, forums, mailing lists, etc. are all open to anyone, and how they're maintained by volunteers from the community? |
| 10:35 | <gsnedders> | zcorpan_: Document.normalizeDocument() |
| 10:35 | <Hixie> | Lachy: yeah, and how we're gotten so much input from people all over the place, and how people just volunteer to do stuff |
| 10:35 | <gsnedders> | actually, in this case, just Document.normalize() should be enough |
| 10:36 | <gsnedders> | And people just volunteer to do too much stuff, more than they can do :) |
| 10:36 | <zcorpan_> | gsnedders: just gives a js error in ie8 |
| 10:36 | <gsnedders> | zcorpan_: both of them? |
| 10:36 | <zcorpan_> | gsnedders: yeah |
| 10:36 | <gsnedders> | Oh well. |
| 10:36 | <Lachy> | yeah, I guess that could be more interesting than just the boring technical details |
| 10:37 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, what kind of non-browsing apps did you have in mind? |
| 10:37 | <Lachy> | other than validators |
| 10:37 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: sanitisers? |
| 10:37 | <Philip`> | Select-all on that test page in IE8 does work, it just takes somewhere between one and ten minutes |
| 10:38 | <Lachy> | CMSs too, I guess |
| 10:38 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: look at what WP does, for example |
| 10:39 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: Converting HTML to XHTML |
| 10:39 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: i fixed the list of integers stuff based on your feedback and on the test case peopel were just playing with |
| 10:40 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Now I need to fix my test case/impl. which is how I found some of the bugs in the first place :) |
| 10:40 | <Hixie> | cool |
| 10:40 | <gsnedders> | (probably do that on the train tomorrow) |
| 10:40 | <gsnedders> | (and there's free wi-fi, so I may be online once or twice) |
| 10:50 | <zcorpan_> | Hixie: fwiw, i think the demo would be faster in ie if you build up an array, join(', ') and then append a single text node |
| 10:50 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 10:50 | <Hixie> | it was supposed to be a one-off |
| 10:50 | <Hixie> | so it just kind of evolved |
| 10:50 | <Hixie> | for the record, IE's parsing of coords='' is fricking wacked |
| 10:51 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: the reason not to treat newlines the way you suggested is that IE doesn't. |
| 10:51 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: remind me what I suggested? |
| 10:52 | <Hixie> | that newline, etc, be added to the list of separators |
| 10:52 | <Hixie> | along with space |
| 10:52 | <Hixie> | same again with your complaint regarding "1. 1" parsing to 1,1 -- that's what IE does. |
| 10:54 | <Hixie> | regarding your request that the spec be stylisticly consistent (that the ratios section use the same style as the the other algorithms)... yeah, that'd be nice. but i'm not rewriting the spec, it's too easy to introduce errors. |
| 10:54 | <gsnedders> | :P |
| 10:55 | gsnedders | finally finishes his essay, and can head off to school |
| 10:56 | <Hixie> | later |
| 11:02 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: Pingback, Open ID, Atom feed aggregators, microformat scrapers, templating systems (incl. XSLT) |
| 11:07 | <Hixie> | ok the only thing on http://www.whatwg.org/issues/top that isn't on my list of things i'm not doing yet which hasn't been dealt with yet is the ruby stuff |
| 11:09 | <Hixie> | i guess i just have to make some semi-arbitrary decision about how to parse ruby |
| 11:09 | <Hixie> | since IE's parsing of ruby is a mess and nobody else does it as far as i know |
| 11:11 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: I seem to remember you listing workers somewhere as a work item you're planning on putting time into at some point. Is that still for post HTML 5? |
| 11:11 | <Hixie> | http://hixie.ch/specs/dom/messages/0.9 http://hixie.ch/specs/dom/workers/0.9 |
| 11:12 | <Hixie> | if it gets implementation traction i'll bring it into html5 |
| 11:12 | <MikeSmith> | Ok, thanks |
| 11:12 | <Hixie> | i'd rather implementations work on other html5 things though |
| 11:12 | <Hixie> | like <datagrid> |
| 11:12 | <MikeSmith> | datagrid would be definitely great to have |
| 11:13 | <MikeSmith> | has any implementors shown signs of planning to work on datagrid implementations? |
| 11:13 | <MikeSmith> | that might have been a good opportunity for Google SoC |
| 11:14 | <othermaciej> | I think we had it as a suggestes GSoC project for WebKit but no one took the bait |
| 11:14 | <othermaciej> | we have students planning to do XBL2 and WF2 though (the former might be too big a project) |
| 11:15 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej: yeah, I noted that at the end of the presentation I did yesterday |
| 11:15 | <MikeSmith> | which, fwiw, is online here: |
| 11:15 | <MikeSmith> | http://www.w3.org/2008/Talks/05-07-smith-xtech/ |
| 11:16 | <MikeSmith> | and PDF here: http://w3.org/2008/Talks/05-07-smith-xtech/slides.pdf |
| 11:16 | <MikeSmith> | also noted the SVG Filters plan |
| 11:16 | <Dashiva> | Hey MikeSmith, got time for a chat? |
| 11:16 | <MikeSmith> | Dashiva: aye |
| 11:18 | <annevk> | othermaciej, cool that WebKit will do WF2! |
| 11:29 | <othermaciej> | MikeSmith: pretty good summary of what is new in browser land |
| 11:38 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej: just tried to cover the last 12 months (since the previous XTech in May 2007) |
| 11:40 | <MikeSmith> | but putting it together, surprised me how much has gotten new stuff has gotten implemented/refined in that relatively short amount of time |
| 11:41 | <virtuelv> | MikeSmith: were you at Bert's talk? |
| 11:41 | <MikeSmith> | virtuelv: nope |
| 11:41 | <MikeSmith> | why you ask? |
| 11:41 | <othermaciej> | there was actually quite a bunch of new stuff in Safari 3.1 |
| 11:41 | <othermaciej> | engine-wise |
| 11:41 | <virtuelv> | because someone asked me for the URL, and I'm incapable of remembering it |
| 11:41 | <othermaciej> | I neglected to make a comprehensive blog post at the time but I may try again soon |
| 11:55 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej: a comprehensive blog post would be great :) |
| 11:55 | <MikeSmith> | another thing that has changed over the last 12 months |
| 11:55 | <MikeSmith> | is that back in May/June of last year, |
| 11:55 | <MikeSmith> | you guys were hardly blogging at all at webkit.org |
| 11:56 | <MikeSmith> | but since then, you and dhyatt quite prolific |
| 11:57 | <othermaciej> | I see 8 blog posts in June 2007 |
| 11:57 | <MikeSmith> | OK, well, I guess May |
| 13:05 | <zcorpan_> | MikeSmith: great presentation |
| 13:56 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: you still awake? |
| 13:57 | <MikeSmith> | virtuelv: I asked Bert to find you and let you know the URL for his slides |
| 14:01 | <virtuelv> | MikeSmith: I know, I got the URL just now, he's sitting next to me |
| 14:30 | <Lachy> | Hixie, the spec is too big. I tried loading it on my new OLPC yesterday, and it seemed to consume all the memory and get unresponsive. |
| 14:32 | <Philip`> | There's already the multipage spec for people with rubbish hardware/software :-) |
| 14:32 | <Lachy> | or maybe that's just because Firefox is slow and using up too much memory on it |
| 14:32 | <Lachy> | yeah, but I don't like the multipage version. It makes it harder to switch between sections |
| 14:33 | <Philip`> | Could the multipage version be improved to reduce that problem? |
| 14:33 | <Lachy> | But it means I won't be able to replace my MacBook Pro with it |
| 14:34 | <Lachy> | Philip`, only by combining it into a single page |
| 14:34 | <Philip`> | Lachy: What do you need that isn't handled by inline links and the table of contents? |
| 14:36 | <Lachy> | the ability to search the entire spec for what I'm looking for, without having to know exactly which section it's in and finding that section in the TOC first |
| 14:36 | <Philip`> | So a 'search' box could solve that problem? |
| 14:37 | <Lachy> | it might be useful to have some sort of spec search, but I like to use the find-as-you-type feature in my browser, which is instant in most cases. |
| 14:39 | Philip` | doesn't like his browser's find-as-you-type feature since it freezes for ten seconds trying to highlight every occurrence of the search term's first letter in the spec |
| 14:39 | <Lachy> | Philip`, are you using Opera? |
| 14:39 | <Philip`> | Yes |
| 14:39 | <Philip`> | (9.2) |
| 14:40 | <Philip`> | (It's much faster in 9.5) |
| 14:40 | Lachy | tries it in 9.5 |
| 14:43 | <Lachy> | weird, Opera's find-as-you-type feature seems to be skipping the TOC in the spec |
| 14:44 | <Dashiva> | Not for me (9.5) |
| 14:44 | <Lachy> | e.g. if I type "the body", in Firefox I get "The body element" link in the TOC highlighted, so I can just press enter to go there. In opera, it takes me to elsewhere in the spec first. |
| 14:45 | <Philip`> | "the body" works for me in 9.2, fails in 9.5 (1933) |
| 14:46 | <Lachy> | that's could be a known bug, I will check |
| 14:46 | <Philip`> | I don't think it's skipping the TOC, it's just skipping the nested elements |
| 14:47 | <Dashiva> | The <code>body</code> |
| 14:51 | <Lachy> | Dashiva, it seems to be more complcated than that. |
| 14:52 | <Lachy> | I'll file a bug and have someone in desktop analyse it. |
| 14:56 | <Lachy> | ah, it's to do with whitespace in the source code. |
| 15:18 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: you got your slides ready? |
| 15:18 | <MikeSmith> | deb says we can fit you in |
| 15:18 | <MikeSmith> | or if you don't have them ready, please do get them ready |
| 15:18 | <MikeSmith> | and send them to xtech-lightning⊙uc |
| 15:19 | <MikeSmith> | or at least the URL if you have them online |
| 15:23 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: yeah, practically ready |
| 15:27 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: thanks |
| 15:32 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: slides sent |
| 15:34 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: thanks |
| 16:11 | <zcorpan_> | Hixie: what does "Draft Recommendation" mean? |
| 16:21 | <Philip`> | All specs start as Not Working, then go to Working Draft then Draft Recommendation then Recommendation and then they're obsolete and you can start again |
| 16:21 | <Philip`> | It's a nice smooth cycle |
| 16:36 | <zcorpan_> | Philip`: i'd expect a next Not Working or Working Draft be started during Draft Recommendation stage, if those are the stages |
| 16:42 | <hsivonen> | anne is about to speak |
| 16:42 | <hsivonen> | Steven Pemberton's talk inspired a lot of commentary from the floor |
| 16:54 | MikeSmith | smiles at Philip` description of spec lifecycle |
| 16:57 | <hsivonen> | anne tells us that OPTIONS is now supported everywhere |
| 16:58 | Philip` | wonders what "everywhere" means |
| 17:06 | <MikeSmith> | Doug Crockford commenting on Anne's presentation about Access-Control spec: "It should be abandoned" |
| 17:06 | <Philip`> | Do I get a prize for guessing what it should be replaced with? |
| 17:07 | <MikeSmith> | "cookies have always been bad... I'm not blaming you for cookies" |
| 17:09 | <MikeSmith> | "we need to create a new class of service, so those are going to need to have new APIs [for cross-site requests]" |
| 17:10 | <MikeSmith> | chaals: You might only care about enabling Ajax apps only, but we have to care about the rest of the Web as well [e.g., XBL, XSLT, etc.] |
| 17:11 | <Lachy> | Is Crockford promoting JSONRequest again? |
| 17:11 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: no, actually |
| 17:11 | <Lachy> | wow |
| 17:12 | <Lachy> | is it JSONRequest2 this time? |
| 17:12 | <MikeSmith> | he was just commenting in general about what problems he thinks need to be solved and how they should be solved |
| 17:12 | <Lachy> | I wish I was there |
| 17:12 | <Lachy> | is there an audio stream available? |
| 17:12 | <MikeSmith> | nope |
| 17:13 | zcorpan_ | appriciates the scribing.. :) |
| 17:13 | <MikeSmith> | he's making some good points here |
| 17:13 | <Lachy> | I blame chaals for not sending me |
| 17:13 | <MikeSmith> | he says he is encouraged by the cross-document messaging spec |
| 17:15 | <MikeSmith> | arve now challenging him on why he says iframe communication is better than cross-site request mechanisms |
| 17:15 | <MikeSmith> | crockford said it is absolutely better because it provides better encapsulation |
| 17:15 | <Lachy> | does anyone have skype? If so, call me so I can listen to it |
| 17:16 | <MikeSmith> | he says the frustration we are all dealing with is that the current state of the art does not permit it to build the kinds of apps we want to build |
| 17:16 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: what's your Skype handle? |
| 17:16 | <Lachy> | lachlanhunt |
| 17:17 | <gsnedders> | How very imaginative. |
| 17:17 | <Lachy> | :-) |
| 17:17 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen talking now |
| 17:18 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: me is sideshowbarker |
| 17:18 | <MikeSmith> | tried to call you but got refused |
| 17:18 | <MikeSmith> | call me |
| 17:18 | <zcorpan_> | can i call too? :) |
| 17:18 | <Lachy> | I can't hear anything |
| 17:19 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: we are in a big room |
| 17:19 | <MikeSmith> | sorry |
| 17:19 | <Lachy> | can you turn up your mic volume? |
| 17:19 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: I can try |
| 17:19 | <Lachy> | it just got a bit louder then |
| 17:20 | <Lachy> | till you held the call |
| 17:20 | zcorpan_ | hears something |
| 17:20 | <Lachy> | MikeSmith, can you make it a conf call? |
| 17:20 | <MikeSmith> | I could if I knew how |
| 17:21 | <Lachy> | you should be able to right click on my name and say add to call |
| 17:21 | <Lachy> | or something like that |
| 17:22 | <Lachy> | there's a lot of noise |
| 17:23 | <Lachy> | ok, I can hear it well now |
| 17:23 | <MikeSmith> | that's because I'm sitting right next to anne |
| 17:23 | <MikeSmith> | so you're hearing anne |
| 17:24 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen talking now |
| 17:37 | <Lachy> | MikeSmith, are there any more talks tonight, or was that the last? |
| 17:44 | <annevk> | in Microsoft talk |
| 17:45 | <annevk> | silverlight brings the web and desktop together or something |
| 17:46 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: I can Skype you in to Silverlight talk if you want |
| 17:47 | <MikeSmith> | at 7pm local time, we do lightnight talks |
| 17:47 | <MikeSmith> | lightning |
| 17:47 | <MikeSmith> | .NET is a completely new way to do application design and development |
| 17:47 | <Philip`> | If a speaker is unpopular, do they get electrocuted? |
| 17:48 | <MikeSmith> | Philip`: no, they get the gong |
| 17:48 | <MikeSmith> | gong show |
| 17:49 | <Lachy> | can you ask them to give the Microsoft speaker the gong? No-one wants to hear about silverlight. That's a dead technology. |
| 17:50 | <Lachy> | unless he's talking about why it failed. |
| 17:53 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: MS is paying for the privilige to give this pitch |
| 17:53 | <annevk> | did he just say? as you can see we have lots of bugs? |
| 17:53 | <annevk> | s/say?/say:/ |
| 17:53 | <annevk> | s/bugs?/bugs./ |
| 17:54 | <hsivonen> | supporting many browsers costs more than only doing silverlight |
| 17:54 | <hsivonen> | allegedly |
| 17:54 | Philip` | can usually support three browsers for quite little cost |
| 17:54 | <hsivonen> | now pitching their debugger over Firebug |
| 17:55 | <annevk> | ooh wait |
| 17:55 | <annevk> | he's saying how complex the web platform is, clearly i should pay more attention |
| 17:55 | <hsivonen> | the point seems to be that Debugging in IE.old suck compare to silverlight |
| 17:56 | <annevk> | he's now talking "blah blah blah" and hsivonen and i are confused :) |
| 17:56 | <hsivonen> | did he just say view source is a problem? |
| 17:57 | <annevk> | "it's pretty, look" |
| 17:59 | Philip` | wonders if anyone else in the audience is being more convinced by the presentation |
| 17:59 | <hsivonen> | "no portability issue" |
| 17:59 | <Lachy> | how long is each lightning talk? |
| 17:59 | <annevk> | "easier than javascript, 1/3 development time, more usable, obviously" |
| 18:00 | <annevk> | "deployment issues, Flash had that too" |
| 18:00 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: 20 times 20 seconds |
| 18:01 | <annevk> | "Microsoft is not about taking over Flash, ??, whatever" |
| 18:01 | <hsivonen> | "it's not about taking over Flash" |
| 18:01 | <annevk> | "It's for when you use .NET already and make desktop applications?" ??? |
| 18:01 | annevk | wonders how that relates to the JavaScript pitch |
| 18:04 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: each 20x20 talk is 6 minutes 40 seconds total (maximum) |
| 18:15 | <Lachy> | MikeSmith, I couldn't hear it very well at all. So it'd be easier for me to just read whatever you can write in here |
| 19:26 | <Lachy> | anne's talk was quite good. I could hear him quite clearly (unlike previous speakers) |
| 19:27 | <annevk> | thanks |
| 19:27 | <annevk> | it was totally unprepared |
| 19:27 | <annevk> | except for the slides :) |
| 19:29 | <annevk> | now is RDFa |
| 19:29 | <annevk> | next is Henri again on HTML5 |
| 19:52 | <annevk> | my presentation is here: http://annevankesteren.nl/2008/xtech-html5 (requires support for media=projection and <img src=svg> |
| 19:52 | <annevk> | ) |
| 19:55 | <hsivonen> | http://hsivonen.iki.fi/xtech2008/ |
| 20:39 | <Hixie> | ISSUE-41 seems to make two assumptions that I believe to be false: |
| 20:41 | <Hixie> | 1. that making html into a generic syntax is desireable, or that having generic syntaxes available for web authors to extend with custom vocabularies arbitrarily is desireable, or that there will be enough new standard vocabularies that the cost of adding new syntax each time is an important factor in the deployment of a new language |
| 20:42 | <Hixie> | 2. that it is possible to extend html's parsing model in a generic way without running into compatibility problems with legacy content or with the copy-and-paste mentality of authors while the new syntax is being deployed |
| 20:47 | <Hixie> | i guess there's no point trying to raise these points (which I've already raised) before the tag gets to do its thing |
| 21:48 | <Hixie> | hahahahaha |
| 21:48 | <Hixie> | i just remembered |
| 21:48 | <Hixie> | we're in 2008 Q2 |
| 21:48 | <Hixie> | it's time to publish a LC! |
| 21:49 | <gsnedders> | FPWD to LC. Fun! |
| 22:07 | <tommorris_> | is my brain operating correctly, or is there a teleconference today? |
| 22:08 | <tommorris_> | ah, yes, midnight london time is the cal |
| 22:08 | <tommorris_> | *call |
| 23:29 | <Hixie> | i was going to deal with http://www.w3.org/mid/tkrat.c998060f76b1e71c⊙gn (which i just got to in my pile of feedback) |
| 23:29 | <Hixie> | but i disagree with almost every single point |
| 23:30 | <Hixie> | mcarter: did you ever send your feedback on TCPConnection? |
| 23:35 | <mcarter> | Hixie, I have an initial draft, though I was trying to get a working demonstration first though |
| 23:36 | <Hixie> | k |
| 23:37 | <Hixie> | i'll wait til you've sent your feedback before looking at that section, so as to not make mistakes you have already covered in your feedback :-) |
| 23:37 | <mcarter> | You should be able to expect javascript+proxy daemon that will speak the current protocol, and a proposed protocol by the end of next week |
| 23:37 | <Hixie> | cool |
| 23:37 | <Hixie> | no rush |
| 23:38 | <mcarter> | I'm pretty excited about this stuff actually |
| 23:38 | <mcarter> | Its not so much that I'm rushing, rather all my time is going into it these days |
| 23:38 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 23:55 | aroben | kind of liked DOMStrong |
| 23:55 | <Hixie> | he |
| 23:55 | <Hixie> | h |