| 08:08 | <Hixie> | areas i could focus on next if no-one has any specific requests: ruby, abbr, alt, links, focus, usemap, sections |
| 08:43 | <annevk> | Hixie, did you fix the <p> <span> <ol> thingie? |
| 08:43 | <annevk> | I guess nobody e-mailed about that |
| 08:45 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: what would need to be done for sections? |
| 08:52 | <Hixie> | dunno, haven't looked in that folder :-) |
| 08:52 | <Hixie> | annevk: what issue? |
| 08:53 | <annevk> | Hixie, nesting <ol> inside <p> through means of a <span> |
| 08:53 | <Hixie> | it's already in the spec |
| 08:53 | <Hixie> | it's commented out |
| 08:53 | <Hixie> | search for XXXSPAN |
| 08:54 | <annevk> | the spec has "<p class="big-issue">This doesn't match browsers.</p>" |
| 08:54 | <annevk> | '<p><i><div><p>' |
| 08:54 | <annevk> | so maybe that's different |
| 08:56 | <annevk> | seems to be similar anyway |
| 08:56 | <annevk> | Hixie, in the parsing section there doesn't seem to be XXXSPAN |
| 08:57 | <Hixie> | oh i misunderstood which issue you meant |
| 08:57 | <Hixie> | yes |
| 08:57 | <Hixie> | i have no idea how to fix that particular issue |
| 08:57 | <Hixie> | and intend to not fix it unless someone can come up with a better solution :-) |
| 08:59 | <annevk> | you're hoping browsers will change? |
| 09:00 | <Hixie> | yes |
| 09:04 | <Hixie> | hm |
| 09:05 | <Hixie> | maybe it's just a matter of not closing ps unless the current element is a p |
| 09:10 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: I vote for having a sane ruby spec |
| 09:24 | <Hixie> | no, it's more complicated than that, because i'd have to make <p> not look through non-formatting non-phrasing elements |
| 09:48 | <annevk> | ruby is fine with me too |
| 09:49 | <annevk> | i hope browsers will implement it at some point |
| 09:51 | <jgraham> | Is it allowed to ask you not to work on alt or abbr but to not mind otherwise? (because working on alt or abbr is a waste of everyone's time since there are people who will object whatever the spec says, so we will have to revisit the issue again anyway) |
| 09:52 | <annevk> | instead of asking that, you could just vote for the other options |
| 09:52 | <annevk> | :) |
| 09:52 | <jgraham> | (unless by "work on alt" you mean "organise some proper non-automated study into the way that @alt is used on the internet and how that varies with the other properties of the page" rather than "change the spec text about alt") |
| 09:52 | <Lachy> | jgraham, what's the problem with abbr? who would object? |
| 09:53 | <jgraham> | Lachy: There is a dormant prema-thread about abbr, no? |
| 09:53 | <jgraham> | s/prema/perma/ |
| 09:55 | <Lachy> | oh, you mean that one where some people want to preserve the theoretical differences between abbr and acronym and add more attributes for fine grained control over them? |
| 09:56 | <Hixie> | jgraham: i have to reply to the feedback at some point |
| 09:56 | <Lachy> | the only good solution is to make abbr and acronym synonymous, since people use them interchangebly anyway. |
| 09:57 | <Lachy> | or just leave it as is with only abbr |
| 09:57 | <Hixie> | annevk: in fact, as far as i can tell, what the spec says is closer to what IE does than what the other browsers do |
| 09:57 | <Hixie> | it's also what firefox does |
| 09:58 | <jgraham> | Hixie: I know. But replying only has the effect of generating more feedback so if you prioritize those areas then you will never get anything else done |
| 09:58 | <annevk> | Hixie, my Firefox allows <p><span><ol> |
| 09:58 | <jgraham> | Lachy: Yeah that thread |
| 09:59 | <Hixie> | annevk: yes, it has a special case for <span>, but only <span> |
| 10:00 | <annevk> | Hixie, works for <i> too |
| 10:00 | <Hixie> | not for me |
| 10:00 | <annevk> | <!DOCTYPE html><p><i><p>x</p></i></p>x |
| 10:00 | <annevk> | is what I used |
| 10:00 | <annevk> | <!DOCTYPE html><p><i><ol><li>test</li></ol></i></p>x |
| 10:01 | <annevk> | works too |
| 10:01 | <annevk> | but it starts breaking down if you leave out some end tag |
| 10:01 | <annevk> | quite messy |
| 10:02 | <Hixie> | oh, you're including end tags |
| 10:02 | <Hixie> | well then sure |
| 10:02 | <Hixie> | firefox has a differet mode for that |
| 10:02 | <Hixie> | if all the tags match it just does exactly what the markup is most of hte time |
| 10:02 | <annevk> | interesting |
| 10:03 | <Hixie> | in any case what the spec does is still closer to what IE does |
| 10:03 | <Hixie> | even for <span> |
| 10:03 | <Hixie> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%3Cstyle%3Ep%20{%20border%3A%20solid%20fuchsia%3B%20padding%3A%200.5em%3B%20}%20div%20{%20border%3A%20solid%20teal%3B%20padding%3A%200.5em%3B%20}%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0A...%3Ctable%3E%3Ctr%3E%3Ctd%3E%3Cp%3E%3Ci%3E%3Cdiv%3E%3Cp%3E%3C%2Ftable%3E%0A...%3Ctable%3E%3Ctr%3E%3Ctd%3E%3Cp%3E%3Cspan%3E%3Cdiv%3E%3Cp%3E%3C%2Ftable%3E%0A |
| 10:05 | <annevk> | ok |
| 10:08 | <Hixie> | in fact for this: |
| 10:08 | <Hixie> | <!DOCTYPE html>...<p><span><p>...</p></span></p>... |
| 10:08 | <Hixie> | the DOM that HTML5 gives is as close to what IE does as you can get without the non-tree DOM thing |
| 10:08 | <Hixie> | and much cloer than what other browsers do |
| 10:09 | <Hixie> | in fact that particular case matches webkit pretty well |
| 10:10 | <Hixie> | and opera's rendering doesn't match its DOM |
| 10:10 | Hixie | goes to remove the issue marker |
| 10:12 | <annevk> | wow, video codec contains a lot of e-mails |
| 10:13 | <annevk> | Hixie, "Error loading folder contents: . Let Hixie know." |
| 10:14 | <annevk> | (stuff still works, so I'm not sure what's going on) |
| 10:15 | <Hixie> | weird |
| 10:15 | <Hixie> | let me know if it can be reproduced |
| 10:16 | <annevk> | after a refresh it's no longer there |
| 10:16 | <Hixie> | probably just memory issues on my server |
| 10:16 | <annevk> | btw, there's WF3-geo and geolocation |
| 10:16 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 10:16 | <Hixie> | i'm not looking there until webapi decides what they're doing |
| 10:16 | <Hixie> | or until the forms tf completes |
| 10:17 | <annevk> | not really sure what to do there |
| 10:17 | <annevk> | Forms WG still seems fixed on the idea of bringing XForms to HTML |
| 10:18 | <Hixie> | well since that's not in the forms tf charter, that should be easy to deal with |
| 10:20 | <annevk> | the latest was http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2008May/0003.html |
| 10:20 | Hixie | goes to look at his ruby data |
| 10:20 | <Hixie> | yeah i saw |
| 10:25 | <annevk> | I note that nobody replied to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2008Apr/0023.html |
| 10:27 | <annevk> | maybe it would be best to draft a new text document taking guidelines 1-7 from maciej and propose to adopt that |
| 10:27 | <othermaciej> | I might have time this weekend |
| 10:28 | <annevk> | k |
| 10:28 | <annevk> | it probably doesn't have to be HTML per se, you could just do it like the charter document |
| 10:30 | <Hixie> | you mean you actually want to do the work the tf chartered itself to do? |
| 10:30 | <Hixie> | that's a radical idea |
| 10:30 | <Hixie> | it'll never catch on |
| 10:32 | <annevk> | hmm, seems that my browser couldn't handle the sarcasm |
| 10:34 | <annevk> | Hixie, for your issues graph, it would be nicer if the horizontal line snapped to the nearest graph |
| 10:37 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 10:38 | <Hixie> | so according to my data |
| 10:38 | <Hixie> | there are a lot of stray </rt> elements |
| 10:38 | <Hixie> | but not many stray </rp> elements |
| 10:39 | <Hixie> | despite there being roughly the same amount of both |
| 10:40 | <Hixie> | as in, 2.3% vs 0.017% |
| 10:40 | <Hixie> | that's a very odd result |
| 10:41 | <Hixie> | hmm, </ruby> has about the same problem |
| 10:41 | <Hixie> | as </rt> |
| 10:41 | <Hixie> | i clearly need to do this again but get sample urls |
| 11:36 | <Hixie> | oh that's hilarious |
| 11:36 | <Hixie> | http://blog.kansai.com/kasutera7966/132 |
| 11:37 | <Hixie> | it has two occurances of <ruby> ... <rt> ... </ruby>, which is fine as far as that goes |
| 11:37 | <Hixie> | but then at the end of the main bit of text there are two orphan </rt> tags |
| 11:37 | <Hixie> | clearly some software somewhere was like "ok well i'm closing these damnit!" |
| 11:41 | <annevk> | that's some interesting markup right there :) |
| 11:43 | <Hixie> | so uh |
| 11:43 | <Hixie> | how do you get IE to actually render hte ruby |
| 11:45 | <annevk> | <!doctype html> <ruby> test <rt> test </rbuy> |
| 11:45 | <annevk> | wfm |
| 11:46 | <annevk> | though you probably want </ruby> there :) |
| 11:47 | annevk | uses IE6 |
| 11:48 | <annevk> | I don't think IE does "advanced" ruby |
| 11:48 | <annevk> | the rbc and rtc elements |
| 11:49 | <annevk> | s/advanced/complex/ |
| 11:49 | <Hixie> | http://jyosui.blogzine.jp/blog/cat7074652/index.html |
| 11:49 | <Hixie> | ^ are you sure you want us to support ruby? |
| 11:50 | <Hixie> | woah |
| 11:50 | <Hixie> | it only works in quirks mode for me |
| 11:52 | <Hixie> | <ruby><rb>ハクナ・マタタ</rb><rt>くよくよするな</rp></ruby> |
| 11:53 | <Hixie> | good work matching tags there http://d.hatena.ne.jp/keyword/%A5%E9%A5%A4%A5%AA%A5%F3%A1%A6%A5%AD%A5%F3%A5%B0 |
| 11:53 | <annevk> | afaict IE ignores <rp> and <rb> |
| 11:54 | <Hixie> | yes |
| 11:54 | <annevk> | and <rt> only functions if it has a non-whitespace previous sibling |
| 11:55 | <Hixie> | ok so here is what i propose: |
| 11:55 | <Hixie> | <ruby> and </ruby> act like any random phrasing element tags |
| 11:56 | <Hixie> | <rp> and <rt> pop elements up to the nearest in-scope <ruby>, if any |
| 11:56 | <Hixie> | </rp> and </rt> act like normal phrasing element end tags |
| 11:56 | <Hixie> | <ruby> represents a run of one or more ruby annotations |
| 11:57 | <Hixie> | each annotation consists of some phrasing content followed by an <rt> element or a run of <rp>-<rt>-<rp> elements |
| 11:57 | <Hixie> | <rp> elements get ignored altogether |
| 11:58 | <Hixie> | the renderer takes all content of the <ruby> element and splits it into groups of not-rt, rt |
| 11:58 | <Hixie> | for each of those groups it renders the not-rt as the base and the rt as the ruby text |
| 11:59 | Hixie | notes this in the spec for tomorrow |
| 11:59 | <annevk> | </ruby> should close <rp> / <rt> |
| 12:00 | <Hixie> | it would, if treated as i described above |
| 12:00 | <annevk> | without error? |
| 12:00 | <Hixie> | oh you don't want it to be an error? |
| 12:00 | <Hixie> | sure, we can add that |
| 12:00 | <annevk> | cool |
| 12:00 | annevk | likes lazy markup |
| 12:02 | <myakura> | http://tinyurl.com/6b7s4w (babelfish'd from ja to en) mentions that ie8's ruby support.. wonder how that'll be done.. |
| 12:04 | <Hixie> | http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.exconn.net%2FBlogs%2Fwindows%2Farchive%2F2008%2F03%2F09%2F23648.aspx&hl=en&ie=UTF8&sl=ja&sl=es&tl=en&tl=en |
| 12:04 | <Hixie> | mildly better |
| 12:05 | <annevk> | the Google version spells Ruby wrong (Rubi) |
| 12:06 | <Hixie> | i noticed that :-) |
| 12:06 | <Hixie> | you can suggest a better translation :-) |
| 12:06 | <Hixie> | hover over it |
| 12:10 | <Hixie> | placeholder: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-ruby |
| 12:10 | <Hixie> | i'll fill in the details tomorrow |
| 12:11 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: i don't envy you your job |
| 12:12 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 12:12 | <MikeSmith> | you referring to my survey mail, I guess |
| 12:13 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 12:14 | <Hixie> | if you do have people leave the group because of the quorum thing, please let me know so i can invite them to send feedback through the whatwg -- i imagine there might well be people who want to send feedback but don't care about the voting nonsense |
| 12:14 | <Hixie> | (me, for instance) |
| 12:15 | <MikeSmith> | I think at least a couple of those people who have not responded are not actually interested in the HTML work |
| 12:15 | <MikeSmith> | or maybe just interested in the parts of it that relate to forms |
| 12:16 | <MikeSmith> | I'd wonder whether they would have plans to ever send feedback and have a discussion about that even |
| 12:18 | <MikeSmith> | but yeah, if they do decide to leave, I will let you know, and will myself point out to them that the whatwg list is a great place for them to submit any feedback they might have |
| 12:18 | <annevk> | hmm, <rt> closes <rp>, but <rp> does not close <rt> |
| 12:19 | <annevk> | </ruby> closes <rt><rp> |
| 12:19 | <Hixie> | annevk: yeah, IE's handling is seriously borked |
| 12:20 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: cool |
| 12:20 | <Hixie> | what's our current quorum level? |
| 12:20 | <MikeSmith> | we are short one response |
| 12:21 | <Hixie> | ah |
| 12:21 | <MikeSmith> | ChrisW told me on Friday that he would respond by the deadline, but he didn't (he's traveling and I would guess he may have been without connectivity) |
| 12:21 | <Hixie> | wow, no negative votes at all |
| 12:21 | <Hixie> | impressive |
| 12:21 | <Hixie> | ok |
| 12:21 | <Hixie> | bed time |
| 12:21 | <Hixie> | nn |
| 12:21 | <MikeSmith> | 'night |
| 12:23 | <MikeSmith> | hmm, is there not any kind of svn webview interface for whatwg svn? or some way that I can get a URL for a particular revision of the spec? |
| 12:23 | <MikeSmith> | I know about http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps/ but as far as I can see, it only shows the latest rev |
| 12:25 | <annevk> | MikeSmith, http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker ? |
| 12:26 | <annevk> | oh, I see |
| 12:26 | <annevk> | no |
| 12:26 | <MikeSmith> | ah, OK |
| 12:26 | <annevk> | should be quite trivial to make that though |
| 12:27 | <MikeSmith> | yeah, I would think so, since the web-apps-tracker needs to be able to get arbitrary revisions anyway |
| 12:51 | <gsnedders> | MikeSmith: All it does, IIRC, is run svn diff |
| 12:52 | annevk | reads http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/05/21-minutes.html ... |
| 12:53 | <annevk> | "TBL: I don't resent +xml, but I think text/html should migrate smoothly to XML over time." |
| 12:56 | <Philip`> | MikeSmith: "we are short one response" - I (or, rather, Dashiva's script) count 12 Member responses, which is exactly how many are needed |
| 12:57 | <Dashiva> | There could be a bug :) |
| 12:57 | <Philip`> | (Oxford Brookes University, Apple, Inc., Mozilla Foundation, Opera Software, Mitsue-Links Co., Ltd., Google, Inc., Nokia Corporation, AOL LLC, International Webmasters Association / HTML Writers Guild, W3C/MIT, Boeing Company, University of Innsbruck) |
| 12:58 | <Philip`> | It's definitely cutting it quite fine, though |
| 12:59 | <MikeSmith> | I clearly can't count :) |
| 13:00 | <Philip`> | That's understandable, since you don't have 12 fingers ;-) |
| 13:01 | <annevk> | Maybe MikeSmith counted W3C * 3? |
| 13:02 | <MikeSmith> | I think I just miscounted |
| 13:03 | <annevk> | the only thing is that html5-diff needs to be updated presumably because of sandboxing and ruby |
| 14:49 | <takkaria> | mhm, those TAG minutes are interesting |
| 14:49 | <takkaria> | "the reason we're not seeing a strong example of the need for distributed extensibility is that the lack of namespace-based extensibility in HTML bounded the discussion" |
| 15:28 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Why not just wrap anything < 0 or > 10 the max. bounds? |
| 15:28 | <Lachy> | I need to work out what questions to ask the audience in the presentation. This is what I have so far... |
| 15:28 | <Lachy> | Who has never heard of HTML 5 before? |
| 15:28 | <Lachy> | Who has, but doesn’t know much about it? |
| 15:28 | <Lachy> | Who thinks they know more about it than we do? |
| 15:28 | <gsnedders> | Who thinks HTML 5 is stupid because XHTML is the future? |
| 15:29 | <Lachy> | heh |
| 15:29 | <Philip`> | Who thinks alt should be mandatory? |
| 15:29 | <Lachy> | I don't want to start a flame war in the middle of a presentation |
| 15:30 | <Philip`> | :-( |
| 15:30 | <Philip`> | (Why are you asking the audience questions at all?) |
| 15:30 | <MikeSmith> | "Who among you would like to challenge us to a fist fight after this presentation?" |
| 15:31 | <Lachy> | Philip`, as a way to get the audience more involved and interested |
| 15:31 | <Lachy> | if you have better suggestions, let me know |
| 15:31 | <MikeSmith> | "Who among you is without sin and would like to cast the first stone?" |
| 15:31 | Philip` | has no useful experience at giving presentations, so he has no suggestions |
| 15:32 | <Lachy> | MikeSmith, what relevance does that have to HTML5? |
| 15:33 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: I'm brainstorming here |
| 15:34 | <MikeSmith> | ""Who among you would possibly have some red-haired ses or similar that you would like to share with us in appreciation for the fact that we have taken the time to come here and educate you about HTML5?" |
| 15:34 | <Lachy> | ses? |
| 15:34 | <Lachy> | did you mean sis, as in sister? |
| 15:35 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: nope, ses |
| 15:35 | <Lachy> | then what is it? |
| 15:35 | <MikeSmith> | teh red-haired variety |
| 15:35 | <Lachy> | ? |
| 15:36 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: I dunno. something I heard about on the Internet somewhere |
| 15:36 | <Philip`> | "an ancient Chinese plucked zither"? |
| 15:37 | <Philip`> | Google finds "red-haired ses" once on the internet, at www.marijuanapassion.com... |
| 15:41 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: I recommend mocking other people/groups in your presentation, as much as possible |
| 15:42 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: Especially that gsnedders guy. |
| 15:43 | Philip` | recommends not doing so, because it'll just make the audience think you're arrogant and/or wrong :-p |
| 15:44 | <Philip`> | (unless you're just confirming their pre-existing prejudices, in which case it's alright) |
| 15:45 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, I'll use that funny looking photo of you in the presentation when we're talking about the community |
| 15:45 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: jgraham's photo? |
| 15:45 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: Or what? |
| 15:46 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, yeah, that one will do |
| 15:46 | <Lachy> | http://flickr.com/photos/jgraham/2479527700/ |
| 15:46 | <gsnedders> | I was meaning http://flickr.com/photos/jgraham/2479527704/ |
| 15:46 | <gsnedders> | seeming that's also me |
| 15:47 | <Lachy> | no, people can't see your funny hair style in that one. The aim is to get people to laugh |
| 15:47 | <Lachy> | :-P |
| 15:47 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: If you want my hair, there are better photos :P |
| 15:48 | <Dashiva> | Oh, oh! |
| 15:48 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: http://flickr.com/photos/gsnedders/2396366112/? |
| 15:48 | <Dashiva> | You can have a "Hi, I'm a HTML5 document. And I'm a XHTML2 document" thing! |
| 15:48 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: Just look through photos tagged with gsnedders |
| 15:50 | <MikeSmith> | gsnedders sporting the anglo-fro |
| 15:53 | <gsnedders> | I still think I look really stupid in http://flickr.com/photos/gsnedders/614426881/ |
| 15:55 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, here's the incomplete slide http://lachy.id.au/temp/gsnedders.jpg |
| 15:56 | <gsnedders> | hah! |
| 15:56 | <Lachy> | anyone else want their photo included? |
| 15:57 | <gsnedders> | I was more being silly, but hey, I'm there now :P |
| 15:57 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, I know. But the more photos we get to make this presentation interesting, the less we have to say make it interesting |
| 15:58 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: feel free to include this: |
| 15:58 | <MikeSmith> | http://flickr.com/photos/sideshowbarker/2067348343/ |
| 15:58 | <Lachy> | who is that? |
| 15:58 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: I still think http://flickr.com/photos/jgraham/2479527704/ is a better photo of me |
| 15:59 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, no, photos from before your ascension are better :-) |
| 16:00 | <Dashiva> | Lachy: It's probably mike! |
| 16:02 | <gsnedders> | I should probably get me own photos from Cambridge online |
| 16:04 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: I'm told that picture is of the W3C Special Missions Subsection Junior Co-Chief |
| 16:08 | <Lachy> | MikeSmith, does that mean it is or isn't you? |
| 16:09 | <MikeSmith> | here's picture of me wearing Antal Lakner's "Passive-Dress Double-Gravity Suit System" |
| 16:09 | <MikeSmith> | http://flickr.com/photos/sideshowbarker/88963458/ |
| 16:09 | <MikeSmith> | that suit weighs 40kg |
| 16:09 | <MikeSmith> | "A new development from INERS, the Passive Dress puts to the test one of the human body's fundamental functions - holding itself in position against the gravitational force of the planet where we live." |
| 16:09 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: I am that I am. |
| 16:10 | <MikeSmith> | אהיה אשר אהיה |
| 16:10 | <MikeSmith> | ehyeh asher ehyeh |
| 16:11 | <Lachy> | MikeSmith, have you started typing in tongues? |
| 16:13 | <MikeSmith> | Yes, I've filled with Holy Ghost electricity matrix astrochemistry |
| 16:15 | Lachy | finds http://people.w3.org/mike/ |
| 16:20 | Lachy | concludes that the photo of the drunk mobile phone user is Mike |
| 16:20 | <Lachy> | MikeSmith, do you have a high res version of this photo without the purple hat that's in the flickr version? http://sideshowbarker.net/about/ |
| 16:22 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: http://flickr.com/photos/sideshowbarker/1582027053/sizes/o/ |
| 16:22 | <MikeSmith> | that's the highest res I got |
| 16:23 | <Lachy> | that'll do |
| 16:24 | <Lachy> | btw, what does "keitai" mean? |
| 16:24 | <Dashiva> | cell phone |
| 16:30 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: what Dashiva said |
| 16:30 | <MikeSmith> | actually it literally means "mobile" |
| 16:31 | <Lachy> | MikeSmith, yeah, I translated "cell phone" to "mobile" anyway ;-) |
| 16:35 | <Dashiva> | And I translated from mobile to cell phone |
| 16:36 | <Dashiva> | MikeSmith: Does anyone say the full keitai denwa anymore? |
| 16:38 | <Dashiva> | Or more practically, is 'keitai' in any other use that would require disambiguation? |
| 16:39 | <MikeSmith> | Dashiva: yeah, keitai is still used some other ways |
| 16:39 | <Lachy> | Dashiva, are you an American? |
| 16:39 | <MikeSmith> | and do still here "keitai denwa" sometimes |
| 16:39 | <MikeSmith> | and especically, still see it written a lot |
| 16:40 | <MikeSmith> | e.g., in signs on trains and such that say, "Don't talk on your keitai denwa on the train." |
| 16:40 | <Dashiva> | Lachy: No |
| 16:41 | <Dashiva> | Lachy: My personal experience is that people who use 'mobile' understand 'cell', but the opposite is not always true. So just to be safe :) |
| 16:43 | <MikeSmith> | using the phrase "cell phone" is a good way to demonstrate lack of clue |
| 16:59 | <MikeSmith> | technical people at mobile operators/carriers use the word "terminal" to refer to keitai |
| 16:59 | <MikeSmith> | because to them, that's all it is (a data terminal) |
| 17:11 | <Philip`> | Do they use the term "non-terminal" for anything specific? |
| 19:53 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: I think long comments are bad for perf in general. If people still want very long comments, surely they can put them after the charset meta? |
| 19:55 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: so far it seems that 512 is a practical magic value. if implementations will have a cut-off, I think we are better off if the cut-off is predictable i.e. written down |
| 19:56 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: I'm less fond of the first child of head req. |
| 20:09 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, what's wrong with the first child of head requirment? |
| 20:10 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: as long as the prescan catches the meta, non-first child is harmless |
| 20:10 | <hsivonen> | so the byte location is what really matters |
| 20:11 | <Lachy> | but isn't it easier to get people to put meta as the first child of head, than to get them to count bytes? |
| 20:11 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: is "sing-song" Norwegian the same kind of "singing" as in Swedish spoken in Sweden? |
| 20:11 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: yes |
| 20:57 | hsivonen | reads TAG minutes on Oauth and OpenID |
| 21:06 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: what's the keynote theme that you are using? |
| 21:12 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, it's called Industrial |
| 21:15 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: thanks. I didn't realize it was one of the built-in ones |
| 23:22 | <Hixie> | Dashiva: nah, the audience wouldn't be able to hold their suspension of disbelief if you implied that there was an actual xhtml2 document somewhere |
| 23:23 | <Dashiva> | Surely they've made one or two for examples |
| 23:23 | <Lachy> | wow, it appears the last time the XHTML2 WG actually publised a draft of XHTML2 was back in 2006. |
| 23:26 | <webben> | Lachy: that's of the main document, I believe. |
| 23:27 | <Lachy> | webben, yeah, I'm aware they've been working on other drafts, but still, for a draft that's clearly inadequate, you'd think they'd spend a bit more time on it |
| 23:28 | <webben> | it's possible they do; but haven't published anything, I guess. |
| 23:29 | <webben> | it's also possible that there are bigger inadequacies in the modules that they're concentrating on |
| 23:29 | <annevk> | hmm, sickings comments are not really helping |
| 23:33 | <Hixie> | so i'm amused that two days after the TAG discussed issue 41, i closed it |
| 23:35 | <annevk> | weinig, othermaciej, do you guys have similar concerns to Mozilla with respect to Access Control or does it seem fine from a security perspective? |
| 23:35 | <Lachy> | if anyone wants to take a look at the current (incomplete) progress of my presentation slides, they're up here. http://lachy.id.au/temp/html5.zip (uses Keynote format) |
| 23:35 | <Lachy> | feedback appreciated |
| 23:36 | <annevk> | can you export to HTML or something? |
| 23:36 | <Lachy> | I can do PDF |
| 23:36 | <annevk> | i guess that works |
| 23:36 | <Hixie> | pdf would be nice |
| 23:36 | <Hixie> | i even have keynote and pdf would be nice :-) |
| 23:36 | <Lachy> | but you miss out on the cool animations with PDF :-) |
| 23:37 | <annevk> | somehow that doesn't strike me as a negative |
| 23:37 | <Hixie> | the animations are presumably not part of the substance :-) |
| 23:37 | <Lachy> | it's just slide transitions, so no biggy |
| 23:41 | <Lachy> | uploading html5.pdf now, will be done in about 3 minutes |
| 23:41 | <Lachy> | brb |
| 23:42 | <annevk> | Hixie, btw, can the <ruby> stuff easily be extended to cover complex ruby going forward? |
| 23:42 | <annevk> | Hixie, I heard rumors about at least Microsoft wanting to implement that |
| 23:43 | <Hixie> | well it wouldn't fall back well but sure |
| 23:43 | <Hixie> | we could add an attribute to <rt> |
| 23:44 | <Lachy> | done. http://lachy.id.au/temp/html5.pdf |
| 23:44 | <annevk> | btw, <q> and <rt> + <rp> are slightly inconsistent |
| 23:44 | <Hixie> | <ruby>a<rt>A</rt>b<rt>B</rt>c<rt>C</rt><rt span=3>123</ruby> |
| 23:44 | <annevk> | (not that it matters much) |
| 23:45 | <Hixie> | i'd have to see what the use cases really were first though |
| 23:47 | <Dashiva> | Like compound words where the pronounciation of two symbols is not the sum of the parts? |
| 23:50 | <annevk> | I wonder why IE doesn't do <rb> |
| 23:53 | <annevk> | Hixie, fair enough |
| 23:53 | <Hixie> | it doesn't do <rb> because <rb> is dumb |
| 23:53 | <Hixie> | same reason the html5 spec won't do <rb> |
| 23:54 | <annevk> | isn't that like saying that <dt> is dumb? |
| 23:54 | <Lachy> | I'm off to bed. If you've got any comments about the presentation slides, leave them in here and I'll read them in the morning. Good night. |
| 23:54 | <Hixie> | yes |
| 23:54 | <Hixie> | though at least in the case of <dt> it could separate multiple terms |
| 23:54 | <annevk> | oh true, <dt> actually has a use case |
| 23:55 | <annevk> | this is true for <rb> in case of complex ruby as well it seems |
| 23:55 | <Hixie> | not really, as shown in the idea above |
| 23:55 | <annevk> | so you can have several things in content order |
| 23:55 | <annevk> | in your example above they wouldn't be in content order, so less optimal fallback |
| 23:55 | <Hixie> | the way they do it in xhtml ruby falls back poorly |
| 23:56 | <Hixie> | eh? |
| 23:56 | <Hixie> | they'd be _more_ in content order |
| 23:57 | <annevk> | meh, you're right |
| 23:57 | <annevk> | geez, that's a huge pdf |
| 23:59 | <annevk> | heh, I like the slide that says "Solve Real Problems" and has a rubix cube on it |
| 23:59 | <annevk> | rubik's, apparently |
