| 00:00 | <annevk> | oh, "secure by design" and the Chinese wall is a funny too |
| 00:02 | <Hixie> | Lachy: what font is that? |
| 00:03 | <othermaciej> | annevk: we're not sure yet about all the security details (have not read the moz comments for instance) |
| 00:03 | <annevk> | othermaciej, k |
| 00:04 | <othermaciej> | we'll try to comment soon |
| 00:04 | <othermaciej> | now that we have an implementation and all |
| 00:04 | <annevk> | i'm fine with you guys just implementing the spec :) |
| 00:05 | annevk | wonders if RB and DT have been introduced to each other already |
| 00:05 | annevk | thinks they'd be a perfect match |
| 00:06 | <Dashiva> | <dt>a</dt><rt>A</rt> ? |
| 00:06 | <annevk> | Dashiva, RB and DT are not elements, but people :) |
| 00:07 | <Hixie> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/ie8.html?...%3Cruby%3E%3Col%3E%3Cli%3E%3Cp%3Eaaa%3Crt%3Ebbb%3Cli%3Eccc%3C%2Fruby%3E... |
| 00:08 | <Dashiva> | Oh, those ones |
| 00:08 | <Hixie> | i have no idea what to do with that markup |
| 00:08 | <Hixie> | i can't see any way to get the IE rendering and the IE DOM at the same time |
| 00:08 | <Hixie> | or any thing resembling either |
| 00:09 | <annevk> | Dashiva, see html4all |
| 00:10 | <Dashiva> | Did dmitry start posting there? |
| 00:10 | <annevk> | Dashiva, no RB is proposing Unicode extensions |
| 00:11 | <Hixie> | annevk: any ideas for that ruby problem? |
| 00:11 | <Dashiva> | Hixie: Isn't it just the <rt> blissfully ignoring other tags? |
| 00:11 | <Hixie> | how do you mean? |
| 00:12 | <annevk> | Hixie, maybe <rt> should only do something special in case <ruby> is parent |
| 00:12 | <Dashiva> | Wait, what does a red LI mean? |
| 00:12 | <annevk> | Hixie, for both parsing and styling |
| 00:12 | <Hixie> | red LI means that the LI had two parents |
| 00:12 | <Hixie> | but that's another problem |
| 00:12 | <Hixie> | i'm just talking about the rendering |
| 00:12 | <annevk> | Hixie, in that case it would remain compatible with other browsers, at least |
| 00:12 | <Hixie> | annevk: the other browsers do nothing with ruby |
| 00:13 | <Dashiva> | Hixie: The rendering looks to me like 1. aaa (sup bbb) \n 2. (sup ccc) ... |
| 00:13 | <annevk> | Hixie, exactly, and since <rt> is not a child of <ruby> that would not change here |
| 00:13 | <Dashiva> | So apart from making the list counter rubytext, isn't it just an open <rt> going through? |
| 00:13 | <Hixie> | annevk: people using ruby are mostly worrying about IE, i'd wager. |
| 00:13 | <Hixie> | annevk: so compatibility with IE is what matters |
| 00:14 | <Hixie> | Dashiva: my point is how do we decide what to make the rt ruby-annotate? |
| 00:14 | <Dashiva> | Hixie: the bs or the cs? |
| 00:15 | <Hixie> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/ie8.html?...%3Cruby%3E%20aa%20%3Col%3E%3Cli%3E%20bb%20%3Cem%3E%20cc%20%3Crt%3E%20ddddd%20%3C%2Frt%3E%20ee%20%3C%2Fem%3E%20ff |
| 00:15 | <webben> | Hixie: Would probably be worth confirming that. (I'd tend to assume the same thing, but there is that Firefox extension for Ruby as well.) |
| 00:15 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: the IE rendering is probably more important than the IE DOM, for Ruby |
| 00:15 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: greed |
| 00:16 | <Hixie> | a |
| 00:17 | <webben> | Hixie: Have you pulled up any Ruby in the Google caches? Do we know what current use is depending on? |
| 00:17 | <Hixie> | most ruby seems simple |
| 00:18 | <Hixie> | maybe we can get away with not being compatible with IE here |
| 00:18 | <Hixie> | and just being compatible with most of hte markup |
| 00:18 | <annevk> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/ie8.html?...%3Cruby%3E%20x%20%3Crt%3E%20z%20%3Cdiv%3E%20y%20%3C%2Fdiv%3E%20%3C%2Frt%3E%20%3C%2Fruby%3E%20... |
| 00:18 | <annevk> | it seems like a CSS matter |
| 00:19 | <annevk> | that is, having block level elements inside <rt> will do funny stuff |
| 00:19 | <Hixie> | ok well we'll go for something simple and see what problems we get |
| 00:23 | <Dashiva> | Lachy: Pave the cowpaths should be more explicit about only paving GOOD cowpaths |
| 00:26 | <Dashiva> | Lachy: Existing content should mention that it means actual useful content, not just standards |
| 00:27 | <Dashiva> | Lachy: Priority doesn't say the list is actually in order |
| 00:28 | <Hixie> | wow, i can do the entire ruby parsing rules with one new entry in the in-body mode, and two new entires in the "generate implied end tags" list. |
| 00:28 | <Hixie> | and that's it. |
| 00:29 | <Hixie> | that was easier than i expected |
| 00:30 | <Dashiva> | Awesome |
| 01:02 | <Hixie> | not surprising microsoft think html5 should be split into smaller specs |
| 01:02 | <Hixie> | have you tried opening html5 in IE recnetly? |
| 01:02 | <Hixie> | sheesh |
| 01:03 | <othermaciej> | heh |
| 01:17 | <Philip`> | Which IE? |
| 01:18 | <Philip`> | IE8 seems particularly bad on the spec - it freezes for around ten seconds when moving the mouse over a link |
| 01:19 | <Hixie> | IE8b1, yes |
| 01:20 | <Philip`> | You shouldn't expect beta software to actually work |
| 01:20 | <Philip`> | Actually, you shouldn't expect any software to work |
| 01:21 | <Philip`> | It's good to get that warm feeling of pleasant surprise when you find some that really does work |
| 01:24 | <roc> | IE8b1 is particularly bad (apparently) |
| 01:36 | <Hixie> | annevk: ok, check out the spec, is it ok? |
| 01:40 | <Dashiva> | Lachy: Well-defined behavior and handle errors should probably be adjacent, so you can point out that both "correct" and "incorrect" documents are consistent |
| 01:42 | <Dashiva> | Lachy: Media independence sounds kinda like starting with a desktop and "adding support" for other things. But that could be just me. |
| 02:16 | <Hixie> | areas i could focus on next if no-one has any specific requests: abbr, alt, links, focus, usemap, sections |
| 02:17 | <othermaciej> | I am tempted to request alt just to watch the fireworks |
| 02:22 | <Dashiva> | Hixie: Let's leave alt for the end, it's going to take up 90% of LC anyhow :) |
| 02:23 | <Dashiva> | Is links <a> or <link>? |
| 02:28 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: how about URLs? |
| 02:28 | <MikeSmith> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#urls |
| 05:18 | <Lachy> | Hixie, the font is Helvetica Neue Light |
| 05:20 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: what day is your presentation? |
| 05:20 | <Lachy> | Thursday morning at 11:00 |
| 05:20 | <MikeSmith> | can you plan to Skype it out? |
| 05:21 | <Lachy> | maybe |
| 05:21 | <Lachy> | it will be podcast afterwards though |
| 05:22 | <MikeSmith> | ah |
| 05:22 | <MikeSmith> | OK |
| 05:23 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: so what do you plan to say if you get the "how long with it be before there's a final rec for HTML5" question? |
| 05:25 | <Lachy> | I plan to focus on how authors can use features as soon as they are implemented and shipped in browsers |
| 05:26 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: also always worth pointing out that the record of implementation progress on parts of the spec is exceptional |
| 05:26 | <MikeSmith> | that is, it's getting implemented at a much more rapid pace than just about any other spec-in-progress that anybody'd want to compare it with |
| 05:27 | <Lachy> | good point |
| 05:28 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: I think it's possible that you may have some reporters or other media people approach you there and ask you about the schedule and other things |
| 05:28 | <MikeSmith> | e.g., splitting up the spec |
| 05:29 | <MikeSmith> | many reporters already have in mind pretty much what they want to write about and will try to steer you into saying something that supports whatever message that is |
| 05:29 | <MikeSmith> | so it pays to be a bit careful what you say to them |
| 05:30 | <MikeSmith> | e.g., before responding to some question that they ask, ask them what *they* think |
| 05:33 | <MikeSmith> | put them on the defensive instead of letting them put you on the defensive |
| 05:33 | <Lachy> | ok |
| 05:34 | MikeSmith | gets a Reboot invitation in his inbox |
| 05:35 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: maybe you or annevk or somebody in Europe can consider proposing an HTML5 talk for Reboot |
| 05:35 | <MikeSmith> | annevk did one last year |
| 05:35 | <Lachy> | when is Reboot? |
| 05:35 | <MikeSmith> | event in Copenhagen each year |
| 05:36 | <MikeSmith> | http://www.reboot.dk/index.php |
| 05:36 | <MikeSmith> | 26-27 June |
| 05:37 | <MikeSmith> | un-conference |
| 05:38 | <Lachy> | maybe. It depends if Opera will be willing to send me to that one as well |
| 05:46 | <Lachy> | MikeSmith, what's the purpose of this http://dev.w3.org/html5/pubnotes/ ? Is that a summary of the spec changes since the last WD? |
| 05:47 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: yes |
| 05:48 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: also, I intend http://dev.w3.org/html5/pubnotes/ to also be a record that we maintain going forward |
| 05:48 | <MikeSmith> | so each time a change is made to the spec, we also update that |
| 05:49 | <MikeSmith> | with separate sections for each WD |
| 05:49 | <MikeSmith> | that is, after we publish the next WD this week or next, the stuff that is there for the FPWD will become a static/historical section |
| 05:50 | <MikeSmith> | and we start a new section, which becomes a static section after we publish the next-next WD (3 months or so from now) |
| 05:51 | <Lachy> | so the one document will contain all the changes for all WDs, instead of starting a new document for each? |
| 05:55 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: well, that's what I've been planning at least |
| 05:56 | <MikeSmith> | it seems better to me to have on running record |
| 05:56 | <MikeSmith> | because our WD dates are actually just arbitrary |
| 05:56 | <Lachy> | it might be easier if each on was on a separate page at least, since otherwise the one page will grow excessively large after just a few WDs |
| 05:57 | <MikeSmith> | well, that's also a complaint against the spec itself |
| 05:57 | <MikeSmith> | the pubnotes doc is still only 155K |
| 05:57 | <Lachy> | ok |
| 05:57 | <MikeSmith> | it has a long way to go before it approaches the 2.4MB size of the spec |
| 05:59 | <Lachy> | since the W3C gives each one a dated URI anyway, and each section will remain static, you could just link to all the previous versions and then replace the doc with the latest changes only |
| 06:05 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: yeah, I suppose |
| 06:05 | <MikeSmith> | we'll see what we do after we get the next WD out |
| 07:29 | <MikeSmith> | Philip`: about your offline-webapps message: seems to me like the serialization should just be referred to as "text/html", with "HTML 5" and "HTML5" both just meaning the abstract language |
| 07:30 | <MikeSmith> | any distinction that might try to be made between "HTML 5" and "HTML5" is not going to be intuitive to readers |
| 08:06 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: slides 8 through 11 are PowerPointish--not Keynoteish |
| 08:07 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: I don't understand the photo for existing content |
| 08:07 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: I like the rubik's cube |
| 08:07 | <hsivonen> | DOM tree, too |
| 08:08 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: I don't understand slide 34 without speech |
| 08:09 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: slide 33 needs a warning against deploying content features before any browser implements that particular feature |
| 08:09 | <hsivonen> | the photo of the rosetta stone has low res |
| 09:18 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, the photo for Support Existing Content is of a bridge support. If you have a better idea, let me know |
| 09:20 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: I don't have a better idea. |
| 09:21 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: the photo made me think it was illustrating bridging instead of the support wires |
| 09:22 | <othermaciej> | so you guys have pictures for the HTML Design Principles? |
| 09:22 | <othermaciej> | is there gonna be a presentation about them? |
| 09:23 | <Lachy> | othermaciej, jgraham and I are presenting the desing principles as part of our presentation at @media |
| 09:24 | <othermaciej> | neat |
| 09:24 | <othermaciej> | I remember when we wrote down the first wiki version of that document, based on an IRC conversation |
| 09:24 | <Lachy> | you can download the current incomplete slides here http://lachy.id.au/temp/ |
| 09:24 | <othermaciej> | now even people who hated them originally cite them as canon |
| 09:24 | <Lachy> | Either in keynote format (html5.zip) or PDF |
| 09:25 | <othermaciej> | sure, I am interested to see |
| 09:25 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, do you have any ideas of how to make slides 8-11 less like powerpoint? |
| 09:27 | <othermaciej> | slide 9 has incorrect parallel construction |
| 09:27 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: by turning each bullet point into a slide with one or two keywords from the bullet point on the slide using the "Title - Centered" slide master |
| 09:27 | <othermaciej> | Document/Standardise/Develop vs. Defining |
| 09:28 | <othermaciej> | hah, the pictures are great |
| 09:30 | <hsivonen> | Handle Errors is especially great |
| 09:34 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: your slides are missing CC attribution and license legalese |
| 09:34 | <hsivonen> | for the photos that is |
| 09:38 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, I'll add the licence stuff at the end |
| 09:39 | hsivonen | doesn't like it that RNG list {} cannot contain interleave |
| 09:56 | <annevk> | MikeSmith, yeah, I thought about going to reboot, it's pretty cool, but there doesn't seem to be much activity going on for this year yet... |
| 09:57 | <hsivonen> | let's see if I can still deploy a new instance of V.nu after all these massive parser changes... |
| 09:57 | <annevk> | Hixie, the ruby stuff is not checked in yet, fwiw, but it looks ok |
| 10:07 | <annevk> | Hixie, links / definition for URL would be cool |
| 10:07 | <annevk> | hsivonen,are you already up to date with the new stuff? |
| 10:10 | <hsivonen> | annevk: I am not |
| 10:15 | <hsivonen> | annevk: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/buglist.cgi?component=HTML+parser&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED |
| 10:17 | <annevk> | MikeSmith, ok, submitted a proposal: http://www.reboot.dk/artefact-4161-en.html |
| 10:18 | <hsivonen> | annevk: what's the length of a presentation at reboot? |
| 10:18 | <annevk> | 25 - 30 minutes I believe |
| 10:19 | <hsivonen> | oh great. the JDK did roughly what HTML5 requires now but I had to code around it to get the behavior that the spec used to require a while ago (for charset name matching) |
| 10:21 | <hsivonen> | "For instance, "GB_2312-80" and "g.b.2312(80)" are considered equivalent names. " that's just scary |
| 10:21 | <annevk> | and weird |
| 10:21 | <hsivonen> | I wonder if making scary |
| 10:21 | <annevk> | and annoying to test |
| 10:21 | <hsivonen> | argh |
| 10:21 | <hsivonen> | copy paste error |
| 10:22 | <hsivonen> | I wonder if making g.b.2312(80) an error would make sense |
| 10:25 | <hsivonen> | aargh. It looks like I regressed comment tokenization and the test cases didn't catch it |
| 10:42 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: It's what WebKit does, and there is stuff that relies upon it, sadly :( |
| 10:43 | <gsnedders> | Oh typical. I'm in Cophenhagen a few days after reboot |
| 10:45 | <hsivonen> | hmm. nice. I can't reproduce the comment problem with a minimized test case |
| 10:46 | <hsivonen> | so it looks like I have to run a debugger with the huge spec file |
| 13:39 | <annevk> | hsivonen, textarea input for http://parsetree.validator.nu/ ? |
| 13:43 | <hsivonen> | annevk: I suppose I have to build a proper UI for it, yes :-( |
| 13:44 | <annevk> | hmm, no need for proper UI |
| 13:44 | <annevk> | copying http://james.html5.org/parsetree.html wfm |
| 13:44 | <annevk> | ideally it uses GET |
| 13:52 | <Lachy> | anyone have an idea for a cool/funny blog name I can use for an example site in my presentation? |
| 13:52 | <Lachy> | Something more creative than "My Blog" would be nice |
| 13:53 | <annevk> | Cat Pictures for Everyone |
| 13:53 | <Lachy> | perfect! |
| 13:54 | <Lachy> | hmm. a Web 2.0 version of that would be better |
| 13:57 | <annevk> | C4t 3xch4ng3! |
| 13:59 | <Lachy> | what do you think of this? http://www.h-master.net/web2.0/image/(reflect)Cat%20LovrBETA.png |
| 13:59 | <annevk> | wfm, I won't be there :p |
| 14:01 | <Lachy> | that will give me a perfect opportunity to put in some of those LOL cats with HTML on them |
| 14:03 | <Philip`> | MikeSmith: Renaming the "HTML5" syntax to "text/html" seems too ugly, particularly since we'd have to rename "XHTML5" to "application/xhtml+xml" too |
| 14:04 | <MikeSmith> | Philip`: I think "text/html" is as easy to pronounce as "HTML5" |
| 14:05 | <Philip`> | MikeSmith: But it's harder to type, which is more important than pronunciation |
| 14:06 | <annevk> | HTML, XHTML, and HTML5 |
| 14:07 | <annevk> | since HTML and XHTML don't have versions, that should be ok |
| 14:07 | <annevk> | HTML5 can also be written as HTML 5 for backwards compatibility |
| 14:07 | <Lachy> | MikeSmith, when and where did you suggest calling it text/html? In a mail or somewhere in IRC? |
| 14:30 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: here |
| 14:32 | <Philip`> | "07:34 < MikeSmith> Philip`: about your offline-webapps message: seems to me like the serialization should just be referred to as "text/html", with "HTML 5" and "HTML5" both just meaning the abstract language" |
| 14:35 | <Dashiva> | Lachy: Do the <i> one! |
| 14:36 | <Lachy> | Dashiva, specifically which one? |
| 14:36 | <Dashiva> | http://icanhascheezburger.com/2008/03/24/funny-pictures-i-i/ |
| 14:39 | <Lachy> | why does photoshop have to be so damn compliated?! |
| 14:40 | <Dashiva> | Because if everyone can do it, it's no longer cool |
| 14:41 | <Lachy> | yeah, but it sucks cause I can't even figure out how to change the colour of a layer |
| 14:58 | <Lachy> | bugger photoshop, it's uselss. I'll use Fireworks instead, cause at least it lets me work with the image easily |
| 14:58 | <Lachy> | (or maybe it's just the user that's useless) |
| 15:04 | <takkaria> | it just has a steep learning curve |
| 15:05 | <Lachy> | takkaria, yeah, unfortunately, I don't have enough time to learn how to use it and produce some mockup websites by this afternoon, or tomorrow at the latest |
| 15:39 | <Philip`> | http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/phoenix/images.php?fileID=6332 - "This image ... was taken between 2008-05-26T00:19:03.098 and 2008-05-26T00:19:03.274 local time" - I think that's the first time I've ever seen someone seriously use millisecond datetimes |
| 15:39 | <Philip`> | The phrase "local time" is unfortunately ambiguous when they're on Mars, though |
| 15:46 | <annevk> | heh |
| 16:02 | <Lachy> | I need a caption for that LOL cat image, for demonstrating figure/legend |
| 16:12 | <Lachy> | Here's my sample blog design. Does it look ok? http://lachy.id.au/temp/blog.png |
| 16:13 | <gsnedders> | oh noes! it's da mow mow! |
| 16:13 | <Dashiva> | It's possible to read the text, you gottam ake it smaller :P |
| 16:13 | <Lachy> | I made the text bigger since it needs to be readable by the audience |
| 16:14 | <Lachy> | obviously, if it were a real site, I'd make the text 8pt Arial |
| 16:16 | <Dashiva> | Well, maybe put some text in the entry |
| 16:16 | <Lachy> | Dashiva, like what? |
| 16:16 | <Lachy> | Hixie, is it ok that I stole Astrophy from you? |
| 16:17 | <Dashiva> | Lachy: Dunno. I just figured it'd be more bloglike with some text :) |
| 16:18 | <Lachy> | I'm not that creative. But if you think of something appropriate, I'll add it |
| 16:21 | <Dashiva> | Make a pun on Kitten HTML and KHTML! |
| 16:23 | <myakura> | Fork it then call one WebKitten :) |
| 16:23 | <myakura> | well, don't fork :) |
| 16:23 | <annevk> | hehe |
| 16:25 | <gsnedders> | myakura: Spoon it? |
| 16:26 | Lachy | adds credit to Hixie for the cat logo |
| 16:26 | <myakura> | gsnedders: http://www.doknowevil.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/omg_spoon_cat.jpg |
| 17:05 | <annevk> | Lachy, if you need people to laugh: http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/8726/jobsco0.gif |
| 18:16 | <Lachy> | LOL. It's funny how RB talks about the problems caused by moving an attribute in the null namespace from one element to another, then admits in the following paragraph that the problem doesn't exist. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008May/0613.html |
| 18:19 | Lachy | resists the temptation to respond, since it's unlikely to achieve anything |
| 18:20 | <Dashiva> | I'm just wondering what he wants to accomplish |
| 18:20 | <Dashiva> | Surely he realizes that it's years too late to change it |
| 18:21 | <Lachy> | I'm not sure. But the problems he's describing aren't real problems, and even if they were, his proposal suffers from additional problems beyond the back compat issues |
| 18:39 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: Can I see the full slide that I'm in, yet? |
| 18:42 | <Dashiva> | gsnedders: Worried? :) |
| 18:50 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, not yet. that section isn't finished yet |
| 19:14 | <annevk> | Dashiva, RB believes Namespaces for XML, namespaces in the DOM, etc. can still be changed |
| 19:48 | <annevk> | according to Wikipedia "rubi" is alternative to "ruby" |
| 19:53 | <Dashiva> | Probably a direct transliteration from Japanese |
| 20:24 | <gsnedders> | http://htmlpurifier.org/demo.php?html=%EF%BF%BF — The return of U+FFFF! |
| 21:30 | gsnedders | hopes <http://hg.gsnedders.com/spec-gen/file/tip/src/specGen/processes/xref.py>; is a decent xrefing impl. |
| 21:32 | <Philip`> | Eww, tabs for indentation :-( |
| 21:34 | <gsnedders> | Spaces annoy me. It means I can't decide how much indentation something has — with tabs I can decide how wide they should be. |
| 21:35 | <Hixie> | http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/26/technology/26firefox.html?th&emc=th |
| 21:35 | <hsivonen> | I suppose I should wait a while to see how feedback on ruby turns out |
| 21:35 | <Hixie> | "Microsoft waited five years before releasing the sixth version of |
| 21:35 | <Hixie> | Internet Explorer in 2006. Dean Hachamovitch, general manager of Microsoft's |
| 21:35 | <Hixie> | Internet Explorer group, says the company was focused on plugging security |
| 21:35 | <Hixie> | holes during that time." |
| 21:35 | <Hixie> | FIVE YEARS to plug security holes? |
| 21:35 | <Hixie> | exactly HOW BUGGY was their browser??? |
| 21:36 | <gsnedders> | hah. They're still claiming that? |
| 21:36 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Tabs make e.g. that hg page look broken and ugly, because the class contents are only indented by one space |
| 21:36 | <gsnedders> | Most of IE team wasn't even working on IE then. |
| 21:36 | <othermaciej> | claiming what? |
| 21:36 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: I know, it sucks. :( |
| 21:37 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: But it's only the web UI of a SCM :P |
| 21:37 | <gavin_> | http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080526#l-408 |
| 21:37 | <othermaciej> | ah, a creative phrasing |
| 21:37 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: The solution is to use spaces, because then there won't be nasty problems when people view your code with various tools :-p |
| 21:37 | <gsnedders> | I hate lxml's .tail. It's a pain in the ass to deal with. |
| 21:37 | <Dashiva> | gsnedders: You have 'get term and strip' twice in the code |
| 21:38 | Philip` | actually tends to use whatever his text editor has by default, which varies depending on which text editor he uses |
| 21:38 | <othermaciej> | "the company was focused on plugging security holes during that time" ---> "the product was in maintenance mode and all they did was plug security holes as they came up" |
| 21:38 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: That's even worse :P |
| 21:38 | <gsnedders> | Dashiva: But on different things! :P |
| 21:39 | <Dashiva> | gsnedders: Make a function :) |
| 21:40 | <gsnedders> | Dashiva: Hey! I'm more concerned with getting something that works! |
| 21:40 | <gsnedders> | Dashiva: This is the first real project I've taken on in Python, FWIW |
| 21:41 | <gsnedders> | Dashiva: But yeah, it probably should be :P |
| 21:41 | <gsnedders> | [in a function] |
| 21:42 | <takkaria> | I wonder how many bytes are wasted a year by including licences at the top of every file |
| 21:42 | <Dashiva> | gsnedders: Maybe emit a warning if you encounter a second dfn for the same term? |
| 21:43 | <gsnedders> | Dashiva: I have no infrastructure to do such things! |
| 21:43 | gsnedders | wonders what the "real" spec-gen does |
| 21:43 | <Dashiva> | infrastructure? |
| 21:43 | <takkaria> | gsnedders: then start building it |
| 21:43 | <gsnedders> | it links to the last dfn for the term |
| 21:43 | <Philip`> | Run the real spce-gen on your set of test cases to see what happens :-) |
| 21:43 | <Philip`> | s/ce/ec/ |
| 21:44 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: But I, um, don't, um, have, um, access to something that's W3C member only… |
| 21:44 | <gsnedders> | <p><dfn id=foo>foo</dfn><dfn id=foo0>foo</dfn><a href="#foo0">foo</a> is the output, FWIW |
| 21:44 | <Dashiva> | gsnedders: If you have no way to produce output, you can always raise an exception. Very XML and stuff. |
| 21:44 | <gsnedders> | with <p><dfn>foo</dfn><dfn>foo</dfn><span>foo</span> as input |
| 21:45 | <Philip`> | I imagine Hixie would love to have the really quite slow build proces abort halfway through with a fatal error message |
| 21:45 | <Dashiva> | Philip`: I know! Isn't it awesome? |
| 21:46 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: No, less than half way through |
| 21:46 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Because the W3C and WHATWG copies of the spec go through the spec-gen separately |
| 21:47 | <Hixie> | i'd rather have draconian error handling here than error recovery |
| 21:47 | <Hixie> | either way i have to fix the error |
| 21:47 | gsnedders | shrugs |
| 21:47 | <Hixie> | but with error recovery i might check in the wrong thing if i don't notice |
| 21:47 | <gsnedders> | I can do draconian easily enough |
| 21:47 | <annevk> | please make id based on the title attribute in some way |
| 21:48 | <gsnedders> | annevk: it already is |
| 21:48 | <Hixie> | in fact right now the spec gen script really annoyingly does all kinds foweird fixups in the face of errors |
| 21:48 | <Hixie> | so much though that i had to add a step that uses henri's validator and then also add a step that shows me the diff post-spec-gen so i can check it didn't fuck anything up |
| 21:48 | <gsnedders> | annevk: http://hg.gsnedders.com/spec-gen/file/tip/src/specGen/utils.py#l38 if you're interested |
| 21:48 | <annevk> | gsnedders, <dfn title=x-x>x</dfn> ends up as <dfn title=x-x id=x>x</dfn> |
| 21:48 | <annevk> | oh, you changed that, ok |
| 21:49 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Yeah, I've seen plenty of odd things. But with HTML parsers (in the plural) like it uses, that's to be expected :( |
| 21:50 | Dashiva | wonders how long until someone takes Hixie's comments out of context |
| 21:51 | <Hixie> | i've given up worrying about that |
| 21:51 | <Dashiva> | But these ones are really bizarro world |
| 21:52 | <gsnedders> | yay! http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath works but http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath/ doesn't. TRs aren't consistent about needing a / or not :( |
| 21:55 | gsnedders | thinks we need chtml5lib |
| 21:56 | <Philip`> | Everyone thinks we need chtml5lib |
| 21:57 | <Hixie> | aw man, anne sent a messgae about ruby to the painters list |
| 21:57 | <gsnedders> | hah! |
| 21:58 | <takkaria> | I wonder what kind of performance gain html5lib would get if just the tokeniser was replaced with C |
| 21:58 | <gsnedders> | http://hg.gsnedders.com/spec-gen/file/tip/src/specGen/utils.py#l72 — XPath is fun. Strings cannot contain both ' and ". Trying dealing with arbitrary input and making it safe to be used in XPath :\ |
| 21:59 | gsnedders | wonders why he doesn't just do a simple replace there |
| 22:01 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: You should probably write that like 'u"concat('', '%s')" % (blah)' since that's easier to read than concatenating three strings |
| 22:02 | gsnedders | just made it look a bit saner without doing that |
| 22:02 | <gsnedders> | But yeah, that is a good idea |
| 22:03 | gsnedders | stops clearing that bit up for a day |
| 22:06 | <annevk> | Hixie, keeping them deliberately out of the loop would be bad |
| 22:07 | <annevk> | It was in reply to RB's response here: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wd-html5-may/results |
| 22:09 | <othermaciej> | annevk: is he really worth replying to? |
| 22:10 | <annevk> | Probably not, but that was just what triggered it, pointing out new additions on public-html should be done anyway I think |
| 22:11 | <othermaciej> | I think you are right |
| 22:12 | <Philip`> | annevk: It would have been clearer if your email said which of Robert Burns' concerns you were referring to, since he seems to have more than one |
| 22:12 | <takkaria> | RB has some very big concerns. :) |
| 22:13 | <annevk> | he has some issues, yeah :p |
| 22:14 | <gsnedders> | And his reasons for disagreeing actually make no sense, according to my built-in parser. |
| 22:22 | <annevk> | Philip`, feel free to add more info |
| 22:48 | <weinig> | annevk: regarding the Access-Control spec and XHR2, I can't tell if you are supposed to send request headers set by the user using xhr.setRequestHeader |
| 22:50 | <annevk> | weinig, they are included, though it might require a preflight request in case of GET requests |
| 22:51 | <annevk> | weinig, also, some are blacklisted |
| 22:51 | <annevk> | http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/XMLHttpRequest-2/#send and http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/access-control/#cross-site |
| 22:51 | <weinig> | is perhaps looking at the wrong version of the spec |
| 22:51 | weinig | is indeed |
| 22:52 | <weinig> | annevk: thanks |
| 22:52 | <annevk> | the latest published drafts were not really clear on this |
| 22:52 | <weinig> | annevk: I was looking at the published stuff |
| 22:53 | <annevk> | weinig, feel free to e-mail next time something is not clear as our timezones are not really compatible :) |
| 22:53 | <weinig> | annevk: will do, thanks |
| 22:53 | <annevk> | weinig, I remember you trying to ping me before |
| 22:56 | <Dashiva> | I'm positively surprised by many responses to the publishing poll |
| 22:57 | <Dashiva> | It seems the "WDs need not be perfect" idea has really taken hold |
| 22:59 | <annevk> | It will be interesting when we go for LC |
| 23:00 | <Philip`> | Even for people who think there shouldn't be a WD yet, there already is one and nothing is lost by updating it |
| 23:00 | <Philip`> | annevk: Define "interesting" ;-) |
| 23:00 | <Dashiva> | Philip`: Interesting times interesting |
| 23:01 | <Dashiva> | Glazman's comment seems a bit strange, though. Is a small change to @alt enough to make it not seem like a new version of html? |
| 23:04 | <takkaria> | I like Laura Carlson's response -- "we need more people from outside the WG to comment on how wrong changing the syntax requirements for alt are" |
| 23:06 | <annevk> | that's not what she said |
| 23:06 | <takkaria> | no, but that's what the bits between the lines say. :) |
| 23:06 | <Philip`> | http://www.bellabotanica.com/ - excellent use of ruby elements |
| 23:06 | <Philip`> | ...<br /><img src="images/group01.jpg"></span><rb></br>... |
| 23:07 | <Dashiva> | I was thinking... how many <rt> are there out there that are typos of <tr>? |
| 23:07 | <Dashiva> | I kept writing <tr> when I was making examples with <rt> |
| 23:08 | <annevk> | I'm not sure <table-row> and <ruby-text> would've been better |
| 23:14 | Philip` | finds quite a bit of ruby markup in "kids" pages on hiroshima.jp and nagasaki.jp |
| 23:14 | <takkaria> | Philip`: urls? |
| 23:15 | <Philip`> | takkaria: http://www.pref.nagasaki.jp/toukei/kids/ / http://www.city.otake.hiroshima.jp/kids/ |
| 23:15 | <Philip`> | Oh, and http://www.city.kawasaki.jp/25/25zinken/home/kidspage/ too |
| 23:16 | <Philip`> | Is it a real correlation between ruby and pages-for-kids? |
| 23:16 | <takkaria> | from what I know of what ruby is used for, doesn't seem an unreasonable conjecture |
| 23:19 | <Philip`> | Is http://za455.myweb.hinet.net/ Chinese? |
| 23:20 | <Philip`> | (The others I seen all looked like Japanese, though I didn't check closely) |
| 23:20 | <Philip`> | s//'ve/ |
| 23:21 | <takkaria> | I don't know, but it has spans with lang="en-us" in it :) |
| 23:22 | <Dashiva> | Philip`: It's less needed in pages-for-adults on the internet, since you can copy-and-paste into a dictionary |
| 23:26 | <Philip`> | Hmm, great, IE8 doesn't support Ruby in IE8-mode |
| 23:26 | <takkaria> | hah |
| 23:26 | <Philip`> | Oh, actually, it does something with it, but not anything correct |
| 23:28 | <Philip`> | It does the right thing with font sizes and hiding <rp>s, but doesn't position stuff |
| 23:33 | <Philip`> | Hmm, great, IE8 doesn't render <xmp> as display:block in IE8-mode |
| 23:33 | <Philip`> | Are they intentionally trying to make IE8-mode incompatible with the web? |
| 23:34 | <roc> | the thought crossed my mind, but it wouldn't make sense |
| 23:36 | <takkaria> | is this the IE8 beta they released a couple of months ago still? |
| 23:37 | <Philip`> | Yes |
| 23:38 | <Dashiva> | Release fast, release often |
| 23:52 | <Philip`> | <ruby style="ruby-align:rightvertical"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: 新細明體"><font size="4">僅</font></span>... |
| 23:52 | <Philip`> | The web is great |
| 23:52 | <Dashiva> | I'm in awe |
| 23:54 | <Philip`> | <FONT size="-1"><RP><RT></FONT><FONT size="+1" color="#0000ff"><B>TEL03-3968-887１ FAX03-3968-8873</B></FONT><RP></RUBY><BR> |
| 23:55 | <Philip`> | Not quite sure what's going on there |
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