| 00:02 | <jgraham_> | Hmm, it looks like the test data isn't being packaged up properly |
| 00:15 | <MikeSmith> | jgraham_: I can test html5lib if you still need testing |
| 00:15 | <jgraham_> | MikeSmith: I think I've just found the problem I know about |
| 00:15 | <MikeSmith> | OK |
| 00:16 | <jgraham_> | I'll upload a new build in a minute then go to bed :) |
| 00:16 | <Philip`> | I can probably test on Python 2.3 if you care :-) |
| 00:20 | <jgraham_> | MikeSmith: btw, Bugzilla sounds like a good idea. It would be cool if we could get the UI to encourage people to write RFE-type proposals in the use-case/solutions style that Hixie has tried to encourage |
| 00:20 | <Hixie> | good luck |
| 00:20 | <Hixie> | it would be nice to have a single place i can go to where i can just go down the list of all feedback the spec has received and just deal with them one by one |
| 00:20 | <Philip`> | Sounds like an attempt at a technical solution to a social problem :-) |
| 00:21 | <Hixie> | public-html isn't working for this purpose, sadly (unlike whatwg, which has worked quite well) |
| 00:24 | <jgraham_> | Philip`: ? I think UI that encourages useful behaviour is not really a technical solution to a social problem. Maybe bugzilla coud be accused of being a technical solution to a social problem |
| 00:25 | <othermaciej_> | some social problems are well-solved by technical solutions |
| 00:25 | <Hixie> | Philip`: the page splitting seems to cut at poor points (e.g. look at where http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/embedded.html#focus starts) |
| 00:25 | <Hixie> | voting is a technical problem to a social one |
| 00:25 | <Hixie> | so is money |
| 00:26 | <Dashiva> | And filtering email :) |
| 00:26 | <othermaciej> | voting is solving a social problem with a social problem |
| 00:26 | <Hixie> | my definition of "technical" may be a bit broad :-) |
| 00:27 | <Dashiva> | You have a social problem, and you think to yourself "I know, I'll use democracy." Then you have two problems. |
| 00:28 | <othermaciej> | money is a solution to the price calculation problem |
| 00:28 | <othermaciej> | so I'll buy that |
| 00:28 | <othermaciej> | (well, money + relatively free exchange) |
| 00:29 | <Philip`> | Hixie: Oops, that was probably meant to cut at #embedded0 instead of #embedded |
| 00:29 | <othermaciej> | Dashiva: yes, exactly |
| 00:31 | <Hixie> | Philip`: your script breaks the back button :-( |
| 00:32 | <Philip`> | jgraham_: I think my point was that the problem is people not providing detailed real use cases and balancedly presenting various possible solutions, and that seems far too complex and subtle a problem to solve by providing some labelled textareas |
| 00:33 | <Philip`> | Hixie: Is that only in the cases where you follow a broken link, and therefore it's better than just dumping you on the wrong page? |
| 00:33 | <Hixie> | any comments on the new text in this section?: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#print |
| 00:33 | <Philip`> | Also, is there any way to fix it, or are back buttons just fundamentally broken? |
| 00:34 | <Hixie> | Philip`: well i'm now using it to create multipage links (i find the right section in the big page, then stick "multipage/" in the uri and copy the result when giving links to people) |
| 00:34 | <Hixie> | Philip`: and then i can't get back to the big page easily :-) |
| 00:34 | <Hixie> | no idea how to fix it |
| 00:34 | <Hixie> | location.replace() maybe? |
| 00:34 | <Philip`> | Hixie: You need a slower web browser, so you can hit the back button twice |
| 00:35 | <jgraham_> | Philip`: Well obviously we can't force people to get things right but good UI can certainly make it more likely. Compare a blank textarea to a solution (better than the one that I was proposing) where you have a whole page with textareas labelled with things like "Use case: this should be a statement of a problem that you are trying to solve, without reference to the particular means of solving it (example)" |
| 00:36 | <Hixie> | Philip`: my slower browsers can't handle the big html5 page :-/ |
| 00:36 | <Hixie> | Philip`: .replace() should do it, iirc |
| 00:37 | <Hixie> | i wish i knew why the annotation script didn't work in safari (editing seems to fail silently) |
| 00:37 | <Dashiva> | I wish I knew how to get an error console in safari |
| 00:40 | <Hixie> | the develop menu is supposedly able to do it |
| 00:40 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 00:41 | <Hixie> | but the inspector thing can't handle the html5 spec |
| 00:41 | <Hixie> | so it doesn't help me much |
| 00:41 | <MikeSmith> | Develop -> Show error console |
| 00:41 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: html5 spec in WI seems to work for me in Webkit nightly at least |
| 00:41 | <MikeSmith> | or did the last time I tried it |
| 00:42 | <Hixie> | for js debugging? |
| 00:42 | <MikeSmith> | ah |
| 00:42 | <MikeSmith> | no, have not tried that with html5 doc |
| 00:42 | <MikeSmith> | you mean for the js for the annotations? |
| 00:43 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 00:43 | jgraham_ | destroys his python installation by mistake |
| 00:43 | <Hixie> | editing annotations just seems to fail |
| 00:43 | <jgraham_> | this could be evidence that I should be asleep |
| 00:44 | <MikeSmith> | jgraham_: the sleep thing does help some |
| 00:44 | <jgraham_> | html5lib-0.11 will have to wait for the morning. Goodnight :) |
| 00:44 | <Hixie> | nn |
| 00:44 | <MikeSmith> | 'night |
| 00:45 | <Dashiva> | Where's this develop bar thing? I can't seem to find it in the menus or the preferences. |
| 00:46 | <Dashiva> | Safari on mac only thing? |
| 00:48 | <MikeSmith> | maybe only mac-only, I dunno |
| 00:48 | <hdh> | there's a preference to display the Dev menu |
| 00:48 | <MikeSmith> | I have never tried Safari for windows |
| 00:48 | <hasather> | Dashiva: http://developer.apple.com/internet/safari/faq.html#anchor14 |
| 00:50 | <Dashiva> | Nice. It tells me to add it to a file that doesn't exist. :) |
| 00:50 | <MikeSmith> | there's op |
| 00:50 | <MikeSmith> | an option in the UI also |
| 00:50 | <MikeSmith> | now |
| 00:51 | <MikeSmith> | or is in my Safari 3.1 on Mac at least |
| 00:51 | <Dashiva> | I got it now, I think |
| 00:51 | <MikeSmith> | Preferences/Advanced/Show Develop menu in menu bar |
| 00:52 | <Dashiva> | It was at the very bottom of the advanced preferences |
| 00:53 | <Dashiva> | It would've been a bit worrying if manual config file editing actually was required :) |
| 00:53 | <MikeSmith> | Dashiva: it used to be |
| 00:54 | MikeSmith | wishes Safari had a about:config or safari:config thing |
| 01:07 | Philip` | updates the multipage thing, but then realises it's probably a bad idea that http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/embedded.html is now 404 |
| 01:07 | <Hixie> | why? |
| 01:08 | <Hixie> | crap, forgot to change the subject line of my last message |
| 01:08 | <Philip`> | Because I copied your link (minus the fragment bit) and then it didn't work (and didn't redirect me) |
| 01:09 | <Philip`> | Does /(?:...)/ work in all JS implementations? |
| 01:09 | <Hixie> | it should work :-) |
| 01:11 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: so I see that YouTube is adding a way for users to put text annotations in their videos |
| 01:15 | <Philip`> | Hixie: Should be split more sensibly now - http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/embedded.html is no longer the top of a page |
| 01:15 | <Philip`> | Also it uses window.location.replace(), which avoids the problems with Safari's broken back button |
| 01:18 | <Philip`> | (The section splitting is partly manually defined now (because that's the only reasonable way I can find to make sure the page gets split sensibly into 100-200KB chunks), so someone should poke me if it seems to be doing something silly and splitting in the wrong places) |
| 01:20 | <Hixie> | the 404 fixing didn't work on that link |
| 01:20 | <Hixie> | but cool |
| 01:20 | <Hixie> | oh, it worked on reload |
| 01:20 | <Hixie> | weird |
| 01:20 | <Philip`> | Probably caching the script? |
| 01:20 | <Hixie> | caching issue yeah |
| 01:20 | <Philip`> | Opera seems particularly bad at that |
| 01:22 | <Hixie> | ok i need a break |
| 01:22 | <Hixie> | bbl |
| 01:30 | <MikeSmith> | dear lazyweb |
| 01:31 | <MikeSmith> | or rather Dear LazyWags |
| 01:31 | <MikeSmith> | Question - |
| 01:32 | <MikeSmith> | If if want to truncate some text down to some reasonable but arbitrary length that's appropriate for putting in an e-mail Subject header |
| 01:32 | <MikeSmith> | ...what should length be? |
| 01:33 | <Philip`> | My mail client shows about 50 characters of subject |
| 01:33 | <Dashiva> | After a few levels of replies, the nesting hides the subject anyway :) |
| 01:33 | <MikeSmith> | do any RFCs or anything authoritative elsewhere advise about Subject headers over a certain length |
| 01:34 | <Philip`> | Gmail shows about 90 |
| 01:34 | <MikeSmith> | Dashiva: this would be for automated public-html-diffs mail that nobody will be responding to anyway |
| 01:34 | <MikeSmith> | Philip`: thanks |
| 01:34 | <Philip`> | Both truncate longer messages, so it's reasonable to expect clients to truncate appropriately |
| 01:35 | <Philip`> | so it's probably reasonable to send significantly more and trust the client |
| 01:35 | <MikeSmith> | I think the RFCs say that content of headers must/should be wrapped if it longer than a certain number of chars |
| 01:35 | <Philip`> | where "significantly more" might be 128 to the nearest binary order of magnitude |
| 01:35 | <MikeSmith> | but I can't remember that the number is |
| 01:37 | <MikeSmith> | for this case, I don't need all that must of it preserved |
| 01:37 | <MikeSmith> | maybe I should just pick a number |
| 01:37 | <Philip`> | MikeSmith: Do you mean http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2822.html talking about 78-character lines? |
| 01:37 | <MikeSmith> | Philip`: aha |
| 01:37 | <MikeSmith> | yeah, prolly |
| 01:37 | <Philip`> | MikeSmith: I imagine it's hard to do this without picking a number :-) |
| 01:38 | <MikeSmith> | :) |
| 01:38 | <MikeSmith> | I meant pick a number without worrying about the header-wrapping thing or what clients do with longer subjects and trying to max out to what they can handle or whatever |
| 01:39 | MikeSmith | used to did some work on e-mail delivery systems when he was at Openwave but his RFC-memory sucks |
| 01:39 | <Philip`> | I suppose you could have some heuristic that assigns a Gaussian-ish weight distribution centered on some particular region and sum that with some spikes at nice cut points like the ends of sentences, and pick whatever point has the highest weight |
| 01:40 | <Philip`> | but then you'd still have to pick a center for that distribution, so it doesn't solve the indecisiveness problem |
| 01:40 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 01:42 | <MikeSmith> | well, I'll go with 78, because I have seen some mail systems and clients that muff up the unwrapping and end up inserting some non-visible or other funked-up character in long unwrapped subjects |
| 01:43 | <Dashiva> | Then you should make sure it's 78 bytes and not characters, in case the diff starts using fancy code points |
| 01:44 | <MikeSmith> | Dashiva: only way it would in this case is if Hixie starts putting such into his svn commit descriptions |
| 01:49 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: i recommend 80 - length('Subject ') |
| 01:50 | Hixie | will not use non-ascii |
| 01:51 | <Hixie> | ok, xml:base vs <base> |
| 01:53 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: thanks |
| 07:38 | <met_> | http://www.wait-till-i.com/2008/06/05/north280-bring-keynote-to-the-web/ |
| 07:39 | <met_> | He told thay made abstract language for canvas, svg and flash |
| 08:35 | <Lachy> | MikeSmith, yt? |
| 08:48 | <annevk> | wow, that's impressive ( http://280slides.com/Editor/ ) |
| 09:31 | <annevk> | Hixie, shouldn't the events be called beforeprint and afterprint? |
| 09:32 | <annevk> | Hixie, IE prefixes all their event names with "on" and we're not calling the focus event onfocus either... |
| 09:32 | Philip` | sees http://hackademix.net/2008/06/05/site-security-policy-aka-content-restrictions/ |
| 09:32 | <annevk> | Hixie, of course, the Window object should probably define two event handler DOM attributes called onbeforeprint and onafterprint |
| 09:35 | Philip` | also sees http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/06/05/the-next-gen-web-html5-will-we-ever-see-a-real-standard/ |
| 09:36 | <annevk> | wow, comparing HTML5 with HTML 3.0 misses the point entirely |
| 09:36 | <hsivonen> | uh oh. we're now on the TechCrunch radar |
| 09:36 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: here now |
| 09:37 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: btw, in hindsight, I think you should have dropped some Crockford into your @media presentatin |
| 09:38 | <hsivonen> | are we going into the deadpool yet? |
| 09:38 | <MikeSmith> | in one of his presentations, Thomas Roessler has this great clip of Crockford |
| 09:38 | <MikeSmith> | where Crockford says that from what he's seen 99% (or something) of the JS he's seen on the Web is crap |
| 09:42 | <Lachy> | MikeSmith, did Marcos ask you to add standardssuck.org to PlanetHTML5? |
| 09:42 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: yeah |
| 09:42 | <Lachy> | ok |
| 09:43 | <Philip`> | "XHTML1.1/HTML4.01 do *not* need updating, they need support. The W3C should be working with and promoting their existing good specs (listed) and not inventing new specs (XForms, widgets) or creating new versions of perfectly good standards (HTML5)." |
| 09:43 | <MikeSmith> | but I forgot about it in the space of the one hour since he asked me |
| 09:43 | <MikeSmith> | I will do now |
| 09:43 | <MikeSmith> | Philip`: who say that? |
| 09:45 | <Philip`> | MikeSmith: Some TechCrunch commenter |
| 09:46 | <MikeSmith> | Whoever said it, I wonder if he knows about the requirement that uttering the phrase "HTML4.01 do *not* need updating" (or similar) requires him to take an extra big hit on his crack pipe when he says it. |
| 09:48 | <Lachy> | luckily for him, we're not updating HTML 4.01. We're just creating a new standard to replace it. |
| 09:50 | <annevk> | Lachy, I made some small changes to your post on standardssuck.org |
| 09:50 | <hsivonen> | :-( at comment #17 at techcrunch |
| 09:50 | <Philip`> | Peter Kasting says: "I’m beginning to wonder how much research was actually done for this article." - me too :-) |
| 09:51 | <Lachy> | annevk, ok |
| 09:54 | <MikeSmith> | standardscuk.org added to planet html5 |
| 09:54 | <MikeSmith> | but only marcos post getting through the filter |
| 09:55 | <Lachy> | wow, "...and an under representation of independent web developers and users". Ironically, there are more web developers involved with the development of HTML5, than any previous version. |
| 09:55 | <MikeSmith> | because only marcos exercised the secret special magic |
| 09:55 | <Lachy> | what's the special magic? an "HTML" tag? |
| 09:56 | <Lachy> | *html5 tag |
| 09:56 | <hsivonen> | Peter Kasting++ |
| 10:00 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 10:01 | <MikeSmith> | most useful comment on that blog entry is, by far, "Is it just me, or does the Silverlight logo look like a pair of panties?" |
| 10:01 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: damn, who told you the secret? |
| 10:01 | <MikeSmith> | I think I'm gonna have to change it now |
| 10:14 | <MikeSmith> | btw, you guys are breaking some new ground in geek waggish-ness with that standardssuck stuff |
| 10:14 | <MikeSmith> | a friend of mine told me to tell you that he hopes you keep it up |
| 10:14 | <Lachy> | MikeSmith, what do you mean? |
| 10:15 | <Lachy> | cool |
| 10:15 | <MikeSmith> | and that you should insert more irreverance |
| 10:16 | <Lachy> | MikeSmith, we'll save that for when we talk about specs we don't like |
| 10:16 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: I mean that some of this material is ripe to for picking as far as poking fun some of it goes |
| 10:16 | <MikeSmith> | I mean, that's what my friend means |
| 10:16 | <Lachy> | like RDF, GRDDL, XHTML2, Semantic Web nonsense |
| 10:16 | <MikeSmith> | the one who asked me to pass it on |
| 10:16 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: I'm not naming any name here |
| 10:17 | <MikeSmith> | take your pick |
| 10:18 | <MikeSmith> | I think I also remember my friend suggested sprinkling the phrases like "architectural astronautics" and "a plan to build a rocket ship to the moon" in reference to particular specs or groups |
| 10:18 | <MikeSmith> | I personally would not condone that, though |
| 10:19 | <hsivonen> | hmm. will the next standards sucks episode be hosted by Steve Faulkner? |
| 10:20 | <MikeSmith> | my friend also mentioned something about he wondered if he could find a way to contribute to the standardssuck effort anonymously in some way |
| 10:22 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: do you have favorite comedy film or TV comedy or animation? |
| 10:22 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: perhaps your friend could appear as a black silhouette with a heavily DSP-distorted voice |
| 10:22 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 10:22 | <Lachy> | MikeSmith, why? |
| 10:22 | <MikeSmith> | OK, I'll pass that on to him |
| 10:22 | <annevk> | hsivonen, heh :) |
| 10:23 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: just wondering |
| 10:23 | <annevk> | hsivonen, how it currently went is not at all intentional |
| 10:23 | <MikeSmith> | I mean what your perspective on comedy is |
| 10:23 | <Lachy> | MikeSmith, I like lots of different shows. At the moment, I'm watching Friends cause I bought the DVDs in London |
| 10:24 | <MikeSmith> | one of my colleagues on the team really like Ren & Stimpy but I never found it very funny myself |
| 10:24 | <annevk> | Eric Cartman << |
| 10:24 | <MikeSmith> | cartman++ |
| 10:24 | <Lachy> | Simpsons is still one of the best cartoons ever |
| 10:24 | <MikeSmith> | Homer Simpson should be on the US 1 dollar bill |
| 10:25 | <MikeSmith> | he is the perfect representation of America and its values and collective intelligence |
| 10:25 | <Lachy> | of course, he deserves it more than Washington does! |
| 10:25 | <Lachy> | (it is George Washington on the $1 note now, right?) |
| 10:26 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 10:30 | <MikeSmith> | btw, the ss.org "Unbiased journalism on Web standards since May 2008" masthead slogan in particular is solid gold |
| 10:30 | <MikeSmith> | my friend said |
| 10:30 | <annevk> | thanks |
| 10:32 | <Philip`> | "Unbiased journalism on Web standards since <del>May</del><ins>June</ins> 2008" |
| 10:32 | <Lachy> | MikeSmith, who is this anonymous friend of yours? |
| 10:33 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: he's a mouse in my pocket |
| 10:33 | <MikeSmith> | so to speak |
| 10:33 | <Lachy> | oh, Stuart Little? Cool! |
| 10:34 | <annevk> | Philip`? |
| 10:37 | hsivonen | wonders what the business model of Cooliris, Inc. is (the makers of PicLens) |
| 10:42 | <Philip`> | annevk: I think I was thinking of something along the lines of http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/03/19/ |
| 10:42 | hsivonen | reads the comments at http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2008/06/applying_svg_ef.html |
| 10:43 | <MikeSmith> | Philip`: that is classic |
| 10:43 | <MikeSmith> | it reminds me of course they have in the United State Marine Corps |
| 10:44 | <MikeSmith> | it's called "Your Ass from a Hole in the Ground: A Comparative Study" |
| 10:51 | <roc> | enjoy |
| 10:51 | <annevk> | roc, quite cool stuff btw |
| 10:52 | <roc> | let me know if you can figure Chris Lilley out |
| 10:52 | <roc> | also, please cast votes for where you think this should be specced out |
| 10:53 | Philip` | thinks the people on standardssuck.org need to work out what to look at when they're not talking |
| 10:55 | <annevk> | roc, maybe chris is saying that if you define the coordinate system for HTML (or anything other than SVG) you don't need new specs |
| 10:55 | <annevk> | (not sure about his other comments about things that you're doing wrong though...) |
| 10:55 | <roc> | defining the coordinate system for HTML *is* a new spec |
| 10:56 | <roc> | You also need to amend the parts of the SVG spec that say what 'filter', 'clip-path' and 'mask' apply to |
| 10:56 | <annevk> | true |
| 10:56 | <annevk> | the CSSWG is the best place, but probably only in theory |
| 10:57 | <roc> | ok |
| 10:58 | <hsivonen> | CSSWG and WHATWG seem like potential candidates |
| 10:58 | <roc> | however, it's the SVG specs that need to be amended |
| 10:58 | <hsivonen> | coordinates for HTML rendering seem more like a CSS thing |
| 10:58 | <roc> | it's SVG behaviour that needs to be "reinterpreted" |
| 10:59 | <roc> | what a pain |
| 10:59 | <roc> | it would be simpler if Ian was the chair of all the working groups |
| 11:00 | <annevk> | haha |
| 11:00 | <annevk> | if the WHATWG had a patent policy... |
| 11:01 | <annevk> | btw, I think I agree with dhyatt in that the simple stuff should probably be doable using a select set of CSS properties without requiring SVG fragments |
| 11:02 | <roc> | I agree |
| 11:03 | <roc> | although we may not agree on what the "simple stuff" is |
| 11:04 | <roc> | the other thing I'm thinking about is how to handle this as a vendor extension |
| 11:04 | <roc> | it feels stupid to introduce -moz versions of the properties that are exactly the same as the standard properties except they apply to more stuff |
| 11:05 | <annevk> | there's precedent for simply putting your foot down in such cases |
| 11:05 | <annevk> | WebKit implements the multiple background stuff simply in 'background' |
| 11:05 | <Lachy> | annevk, http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/?p=73 |
| 11:06 | <annevk> | (though i'd be nice if there was some document written up first) |
| 11:06 | <roc> | yeah |
| 11:06 | <roc> | I'll write it |
| 11:07 | <annevk> | Lachy, heh, nice, a transcript |
| 11:08 | <annevk> | Philip`, suggestions? it's troublesome :) |
| 11:08 | <annevk> | roc, cool |
| 11:09 | <annevk> | roc, btw, how do you handle script execution and such in the referenced documents? |
| 11:09 | <roc> | we don't handle external references yet |
| 11:10 | <annevk> | ah ok, I suppose that makes it easier |
| 11:10 | <roc> | and a lot less useful |
| 11:10 | <annevk> | yeah |
| 11:10 | <roc> | I hope we can add external references fairly soon |
| 11:10 | <roc> | I think at least initially we won't run script in referenced documents |
| 11:11 | <roc> | but I would like to provide a DOM API that provides access to the DOM of referenced documents |
| 11:12 | <annevk> | our "SVG as image" implementation doesn't do scripts either, but that's probably slightly different |
| 11:12 | <roc> | it's related |
| 11:12 | Philip` | assumes it would be restricted to same-origin referenced documents |
| 11:12 | <annevk> | roc, at that point you get same-origin mess |
| 11:12 | <annevk> | hah |
| 11:12 | <roc> | sure |
| 11:12 | <roc> | doesn't Opera support general external references? |
| 11:12 | <roc> | I thought it did |
| 11:12 | <hsivonen> | IIRC, yes |
| 11:12 | <annevk> | true |
| 11:13 | <annevk> | i suppose those are different anyway |
| 11:13 | <roc> | the whole area is under-specified ... maybe you should write up what Opera does before we reverse-engineer it |
| 11:14 | <annevk> | e-mail ed⊙oc for that |
| 11:14 | <annevk> | he's lead of the SVG team and also does standards |
| 11:16 | <roc> | ok |
| 11:16 | <roc> | the whole SVG WG has not been all that responsive to my questions |
| 11:17 | <annevk> | :( |
| 11:18 | <annevk> | they don't really have editor driven specs |
| 11:18 | <annevk> | so everything goes through the WG telcon it seems |
| 11:18 | Dashiva | waits for a <Hixie> I told you so |
| 11:18 | <roc> | yeah |
| 11:19 | <annevk> | the CSS WG does have editor driven specs, but the process to agree upon doing a spec is lengthy |
| 11:19 | <hsivonen> | http://www.itscj.ipsj.or.jp/sc34/open/1037c.htm |
| 11:19 | <hsivonen> | what format is that? |
| 11:21 | hsivonen | wonders if MS Office has anything to do with EOT |
| 11:22 | <annevk> | the Open Font Format |
| 11:23 | <annevk> | "ISO/IEC 9541 is a standard of font information interchange and designed to be independent with concrete font |
| 11:23 | <annevk> | file format. The Open Font Format (ISO/IEC 14496-22) is a font file format specification that is based on |
| 11:23 | <annevk> | TrueType font file format. About the handling and utilization of the typographic properties stored in OFF font |
| 11:23 | <annevk> | file, ISO/IEC 14496-22 describes the implementations on Microsoft Windows or IBM OS/2 only. Therefore, |
| 11:23 | <annevk> | ISO/IEC 14496-22 does not define the method how to define a font resource in ISO/IEC 9541 architectures |
| 11:23 | <annevk> | from given OFF font file, because it is out of the scope. ISO/IEC 9541-4 is a standard to fill the gap between |
| 11:23 | <annevk> | OFF font file and font resource in ISO/IEC 9541." |
| 11:23 | <annevk> | -- http://www.itscj.ipsj.or.jp/sc34/open/1037.pdf |
| 11:23 | <hsivonen> | what's the point compared to .otf? |
| 11:24 | <annevk> | (it's funny that the link to the pdf file has the correct data but the incorrect metadata) |
| 12:05 | <annevk> | oh, seems Hixie already fixed the event names, duh |
| 12:14 | <Hixie> | just did it now while reading scrollback |
| 12:15 | <Hixie> | roc_: while i am flattered by your proposal, i don't think i have the time :-P |
| 12:17 | <roc_> | well, it's like that old joke |
| 12:17 | <roc_> | first prize: chair of the WG |
| 12:17 | <roc_> | second prize: chair of two WGs |
| 12:19 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: did you really mean to say 'id' (as opposed to 'name') under 'valid hashed reference'? |
| 12:19 | <Hixie> | roc: indeed |
| 12:19 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: i don't think i changed anything there, other than the term's name; should i have? |
| 12:20 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: isn't it supposed to point primarily to the name attribute now? |
| 12:20 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: since name is now the required attribute on map |
| 12:21 | Hixie | goes to actually read the part of hte spec hsivonen is talking about |
| 12:21 | <Hixie> | hm, yeah, that should be changed |
| 12:21 | Hixie | goes to fix |
| 12:21 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: thanks |
| 12:22 | <Hixie> | i'll change the term to "hash-name reference" while i'm at it |
| 12:23 | <Hixie> | lest i accidentally use it to refer to something expecting an id reference |
| 13:56 | hsivonen | reads http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/05/19-minutes.html |
| 13:59 | <hsivonen> | "Henri says they don't think that namespaces are important" |
| 14:00 | <hsivonen> | I don't recall saying exactly that. I think I've said that in retrospect, Namespaces wouldn't have been necessary. |
| 14:03 | <annevk> | i suppose you can e-mail www-tag to clarify, but it prolly doesn't matter much |
| 14:03 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 14:03 | <MikeSmith> | that battle been won |
| 14:06 | <hsivonen> | I'll clarify my opinion if it comes up in the context of MathML and SVG (which is what I thought the context was initially until I realized how old the minutes were) |
| 14:06 | <hsivonen> | also, "I asked Henri and Anne if a new version of XmL that was as HTML friendly as possible would be acceptable to HTML WG, and they demurred." |
| 14:06 | <hsivonen> | demurred: showed a contradiction in legacy HTML and legacy XML requirements |
| 14:07 | <annevk> | yeah :/ |
| 14:26 | <heycam> | is 'this == evt.currentTarget' always true when an EventListener is invoked? |
| 14:27 | <zcorpan_> | Hixie: what about print preview and onbeforeprint? |
| 14:28 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: </noscript> fixed. thanks |
| 14:29 | <annevk> | heycam, should be |
| 14:31 | <annevk> | hmm, anyone with tips on how to implement dataset in JavaScript? |
| 14:34 | <annevk> | getters and setters don't seem to cover the case where someone gets an arbitrary property on an object or sets one |
| 14:35 | <heycam> | writing a whole custom [[Get]] and [[Put]] sounds like the way to go |
| 14:51 | <annevk> | how do you go about that? |
| 15:04 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.atkinsfamily.ukonline.co.uk%2Fmayweek_2008.html&parser=xmldtd&laxtype=yes&showsource=yes says "Error: Attribute shape not allowed on XHTML element a at this point." when actually there's no shape attribute |
| 15:05 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: wow. That's weird. thanks |
| 15:05 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: hey! you are loading external entities |
| 15:05 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: so sure, there's an attribute shape |
| 15:06 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: Uh |
| 15:06 | <hsivonen> | DTDs <3 |
| 15:06 | <Philip`> | Do you mean there is a shape attribute on that a element? |
| 15:06 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: yeah, defaulted from the DTD |
| 15:07 | <Philip`> | Oh - that seems extremely stupid |
| 15:07 | <hsivonen> | there's a reason why that mode isn't the default :-) |
| 15:08 | <Philip`> | It works fine if I select the "XHTML 1.0 Strict, SVG 1.1, MathML 2.0 + IRI" preset |
| 15:08 | <Philip`> | just not with XHTML5 + ... |
| 15:09 | <hsivonen> | that's because shape is allowed in XHTML 1.0 but not in XHTML5 |
| 15:09 | <Philip`> | Oh, right |
| 15:09 | <Philip`> | I think that almost makes sense |
| 15:11 | <Philip`> | But it is kind of confusing :-) |
| 15:11 | <hsivonen> | well, that's XML |
| 15:12 | <Philip`> | It's an attempt at validating a reasonably typical web page, and getting something crazy and seemingly inexplicable from it |
| 15:13 | <hsivonen> | should I add warnings whenever a DTD actually has an effect? |
| 15:15 | <Philip`> | I want the DTD to have the effect of stopping the complaints about – etc since I know those are legimitate and not practical errors |
| 15:15 | <Dashiva> | Oh look, another group wanting XHR without window defined |
| 15:15 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: it seems to me you want the XML parser to default to Gecko emulation |
| 15:16 | <hsivonen> | I'd feel better about implementing Gecko emulation if it was a WHATWG spec |
| 15:16 | <hsivonen> | But I suppose I should do it anyway. |
| 15:18 | <Philip`> | I'm not sure what I want, except for it to say "this page (which happens to claim to be XHTML and I'm not going to bother telling the author to change to something else since that's a waste of time) is broken for these reasons (of which all the reasons are legitimate problems, and not stupid things like entities not quite being defined even though it'll work fine in practice)" |
| 15:20 | <annevk> | Dashiva, yeah, not sure what they're talking about |
| 15:20 | <annevk> | i'll deal with xhr feedback a bit later once it has stacked up some more |
| 15:27 | <annevk> | thanks to people doing copy and paste incorrectly HTML5 elements are now used in the wild: http://www.topxml.com/rbnews/XML/re-93299_HTML-5-and-a-different-kind-of-ruby-support.aspx |
| 15:27 | <Philip`> | <a rel="nofollow"udio> |
| 15:29 | <annevk> | nobody any idea on how to implement your custom [[Get]] and [[Set]] in JavaScript? |
| 15:31 | <annevk> | watch seems to have the same limitation as getters and setters |
| 15:34 | <annevk> | __noSuchMethod__ is closer |
| 15:37 | <annevk> | mu |
| 15:38 | <Dashiva> | annevk: As far as I know [[Get]] would require catchalls (as in es4) or doing it in the implementation itself |
| 15:40 | <annevk> | :( |
| 15:40 | <annevk> | i had this idea that maybe making a dataset impl would be feasible |
| 15:40 | <Dashiva> | If you're willing to be really really really hackish... |
| 15:40 | <annevk> | yes? :) |
| 15:41 | <Dashiva> | Create the object on every element with data attributes on dom complete, then use mutation events on the dom to catch changes to those attributes to update the dataset, and use getters and setters to bridge the two |
| 15:42 | <Dashiva> | I'm not sure if the middle step is possible, though |
| 15:45 | <Philip`> | Element.prototype.__defineGetter__('dataset', function () { alert('Just use getAttribute("data-..."), because that\'s trivial and perfectly compatible with everything') }); |
| 15:46 | <Dashiva> | Now I'm curious |
| 15:47 | Dashiva | goes to read dataset spec |
| 15:47 | <annevk> | that doesn't work for .dataset.x = "test" |
| 15:48 | <annevk> | which would create a data-x attribute with the value 'test' |
| 15:50 | <Dashiva> | Yeah, [[Get]] only |
| 15:51 | <annevk> | :/ |
| 15:51 | <Dashiva> | of course, you can take it one step further and run a manual check on the object with a setInterval, but that's just evil |
| 15:52 | <annevk> | I thought of that but that's a) not performing well and b) doesn't work if you set using dataset and then get using getAttribute() directly after |
| 15:53 | <Dashiva> | The b) case I don't really want to care about. They should make up their mind :) |
| 15:54 | <Philip`> | They should just use [sg]etAttribute all the time :-) |
| 15:54 | <Dashiva> | Catchalls would be so nice |
| 15:54 | <annevk> | at least for this |
| 15:55 | <annevk> | Philip`, stop being so pragmatic |
| 15:55 | <Dashiva> | How many browsers support mutation events anyhow? |
| 15:55 | <annevk> | most? |
| 15:56 | <Philip`> | Does IE6 support mutation events? |
| 15:57 | <Philip`> | If not, then it's not very useful for a legacy-UA compatibility script :-p |
| 15:57 | <Dashiva> | Eh, none of the IEs support getters and setters anyhow :) |
| 15:57 | <annevk> | the script was more about seeing if this could actually work |
| 15:57 | <annevk> | but it seems that it can't |
| 15:58 | <Dashiva> | Just make setters for all legal strings up to 16 characters |
| 15:58 | <Dashiva> | ... on all nodes |
| 16:00 | <annevk> | that was another idea i had, but that didn't scale |
| 16:00 | <annevk> | guess i'm glad i didn't miss anything obvious :) |
| 17:33 | <gsnedders> | annevk: What should XHR.status return for an HTTP/0.9 response? |
| 17:33 | <gsnedders> | (that has no status code) |
| 17:33 | <annevk> | throw? |
| 17:34 | <gsnedders> | annevk: Throw INVALID_STATE_ERR? |
| 17:34 | <annevk> | that's what the spec currently says |
| 17:36 | <gsnedders> | It just seems odd |
| 17:36 | <annevk> | agreed |
| 17:37 | <gsnedders> | null is what I'd expect if it didn't exist and the object had a suitable state |
| 17:37 | <annevk> | or maybe just 0 |
| 17:38 | <annevk> | or maybe HTTP should define what the status code is in that case :) |
| 17:38 | <annevk> | as in, if no status code is provided the status code is 200 |
| 17:38 | <annevk> | that's prolly best |
| 17:39 | annevk | goes back to his semi-sleepy state |
| 17:39 | <gsnedders> | annevk: Less drugs! :P |
| 17:42 | <gsnedders> | othermaciej: Happy B'day! |
| 17:43 | <othermaciej> | thanks gsnedders |
| 17:45 | <MikeSmith> | standardssuck needs a logo |
| 17:45 | <MikeSmith> | maybe the guy who created the Squirrelfish logo can make one |
| 17:45 | <annevk> | congrats othermaciej |
| 17:45 | <annevk> | MikeSmith, hehe |
| 17:45 | <othermaciej> | congrats on what? |
| 17:46 | <annevk> | othermaciej, your birthday, it seems :) |
| 17:46 | <othermaciej> | oh |
| 17:46 | <othermaciej> | thanks |
| 17:46 | <othermaciej> | though I'm not sure it's all that impressive to survive to 0x20 |
| 17:46 | <gsnedders> | annevk: I've just managed to get -9 returned by .status |
| 17:47 | <annevk> | othermaciej, :) |
| 17:47 | <annevk> | gsnedders, impressive |
| 17:48 | <gsnedders> | othermaciej: I hope it's your birthday, seeming it claims that on Facebook ;P |
| 17:48 | <gsnedders> | annevk: "HTTP /1.1 200 OK" does all kinds of odd things. |
| 17:50 | <gsnedders> | annevk: Including giving .status = -9 in IE |
| 17:51 | <annevk> | oh, IE has all kinds of weird stuff with .status |
| 17:52 | <MikeSmith> | gsnedders: please provide your assessment of the following |
| 17:52 | <MikeSmith> | http://www.flickr.com/photos/goopymart/2411605231/ |
| 17:52 | <gsnedders> | I need to provide assessment? Meh. |
| 17:52 | <gsnedders> | MikeSmith: WTF? |
| 17:52 | <gsnedders> | (that's my assessment) |
| 17:52 | <othermaciej> | gsnedders: it is indeed |
| 17:53 | MikeSmith | finds fridge empty again, reduced to eating olives from jar |
| 18:05 | <gsnedders> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg/2008AprJun/0479.html — HTTP fun! |
| 18:10 | <annevk> | HTTP is just as broken as the rest of the Web, it's just noticed by less people than the brokenness of HTML/CSS |
| 18:11 | <annevk> | MikeSmith, true that, I'm going to do some shopping |
| 18:14 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: after I deplete this jar of olives, I think only thing left will be to turn to rock soup |
| 18:15 | <MikeSmith> | minus the rocks |
| 18:33 | <Hixie> | i'm amused at how dan and chris have just given up sending htmlwg status updates to the htmlcg list |
| 18:45 | <Dashiva> | Hixie: For lack of content, or lack of interest, or something else? |
| 18:45 | <Hixie> | no idea |
| 18:45 | <Hixie> | just haven't seen updates in a long time |
| 19:00 | <annevk> | maybe they don't attend the calls |
| 19:00 | <annevk> | or maybe HTML5 just doesn't need status updates, it's all over the place already anyway :) |
| 19:01 | <Dashiva> | Yeah, it's public all over the place in htmlwg |
| 19:01 | <Dashiva> | Except that cg :) |
| 19:04 | <annevk> | the HCG should really become a public group |
| 19:05 | <Hixie> | good luck wit hthat |
| 19:06 | <gsnedders> | HCG? |
| 19:06 | <annevk> | Hypertext Coordination Group also known as HTML CG |
| 19:16 | <Hixie> | so who is steven faulkner going to interview for standards suck 4? |
| 19:20 | <annevk> | there's no pattern |
| 19:20 | <annevk> | just a spoon |
| 19:24 | <gsnedders> | annevk: There is no spoon! |
| 20:01 | <Hixie> | i've been trying to avoid defining urls for so long |
| 20:01 | <Hixie> | but it's starting to end up at the top of all my automatically generated lists |
| 20:01 | <Hixie> | folder with oldest e-mail, folder with most e-mail, etc |
| 20:04 | <Philip`> | You just need to refine your automatic list generation - "folder with oldest e-mail that is not about defining URLs", etc |
| 20:06 | <Hixie> | i've already done that with any folder about WF2, rendering, video codecs... |
| 20:06 | <Hixie> | i don't really have a good reason to do it with urls! |
| 20:06 | <Hixie> | "i don't want to find out what browsers do" doesn't seem like a valid reason |
| 20:06 | <Hixie> | bbl |
| 20:11 | <annevk> | Hixie, adding HTML5 elements to the HTML parser has been suggested |
| 20:11 | <annevk> | Hixie, I think that would be a good thing too, fwiw |
| 21:00 | gsnedders | is far too indecisive to write a spec |
| 21:01 | <annevk> | if both options seem ok flip a coin |
| 21:02 | <annevk> | (and maybe document the choices in a comment) |
| 21:02 | <annevk> | then when people complain you can change it |
| 21:03 | <Philip`> | If both options seem okay, branch the spec and produce two versions |
| 21:03 | <Philip`> | and repeat the branching for each indecision point |
| 21:04 | <Philip`> | That way you won't be acting unfairly towards any of the options |
| 21:06 | <gsnedders> | In this case it's whether HTTP-Version should be case-sensitive (per HTTP.sys (in IIS) and CFNetwork (and through that Saf and other WebKit browsers on OS X) and RFC2616) or not (per Fx, IE, and Op) |
| 21:06 | <gsnedders> | It seems the case-insensitivity is no longer needed whatsoever |
| 21:08 | <gsnedders> | I'll send late LC comments on XHR this weekend, annevk, BTW |
| 21:08 | <gsnedders> | (I know I've been saying that for a while, but hopefully I finally will) |
| 21:08 | <annevk> | sure |
| 21:12 | Philip` | wonders how many invalid HTTP responses he encountered |
| 21:12 | <Philip`> | http://drmarin.galeon.com/ is one (returns just the body, no headers or status code or anything) |
| 21:13 | <Philip`> | and same on http://galeon.com/dilandau/mokushiroku.htm |
| 21:16 | <Philip`> | http://www.guadeloupe-fr.com/ too |
| 21:18 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I second annevk's and zcorpan's suggestion to address new elements in parsing |
| 21:18 | <Philip`> | http://www.truemetal.org/powermetal/ too |
| 21:19 | <Philip`> | Two send "HTTP/1.x ..." lines twice (so the second time gets parsed as a header) |
| 21:20 | <Philip`> | I don't see any other interesting problems that HttpClient detected |
| 21:23 | <virtuelv> | did the svg wg come up with a proposal yet, btw? |
| 21:23 | <virtuelv> | for svg-in-html, that is |
| 21:25 | <Philip`> | virtuelv: Not yet, but I believe they have said they are working on it |
| 21:46 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: The ones without any status code or body are HTTP/0.9 servers |
| 21:56 | <Hixie> | right. new elements. |
| 21:56 | <annevk> | add some while you're at it :) |
| 21:56 | <annevk> | <kitchensink> |
| 21:57 | <gsnedders> | <bikeshed> too |
| 22:05 | <Hixie> | right, what are the actual elements that i should make sure i've added |
| 22:05 | <annevk> | event-source in <head> |
| 22:05 | <annevk> | command, source |
| 22:05 | <annevk> | datalist / dialog |
| 22:05 | <annevk> | various sectioning elements |
| 22:05 | <Hixie> | "event-source", "section", "nav", "article", "aside", "header", "footer", "datagrid", "command" |
| 22:06 | <Hixie> | "source", "datalist", "dialog" |
| 22:06 | <Hixie> | what does "datalist" need? |
| 22:06 | <annevk> | does <option> close without error? |
| 22:07 | <annevk> | and <optgroup> too maybe, forgot if that was allowed |
| 22:07 | <Hixie> | uh |
| 22:07 | <Hixie> | "option" gets ignored "in body" |
| 22:07 | <Hixie> | bummer |
| 22:13 | <Hixie> | ok the following get treated as "meta" does: "event-source", "command", "source" |
| 22:13 | <Hixie> | and the following get treated like "div": "section", "nav", "article", "aside", "header", "footer", "datagrid", "dialog" |
| 22:14 | <Hixie> | s/meta/link/ |
| 22:14 | <annevk> | treating <source> like <param> seems better |
| 22:15 | <Hixie> | yes |
| 22:16 | <Hixie> | hm, <body><style scoped> gets parsed wrong |
| 22:18 | Hixie | makes <style> not allowed as a child of <body> |
| 22:18 | <annevk> | wtf? |
| 22:18 | <annevk> | i mean, why? |
| 22:19 | <Hixie> | because </head><style> has to be parsed as <head><style></head><body> not <head></head><body><style> |
| 22:19 | <Hixie> | and there's no real reason to have <style> be the first element of a <body> instead of having it in the head |
| 22:20 | <annevk> | </head><style> is already taken care of |
| 22:20 | <annevk> | see "after head" |
| 22:21 | <Hixie> | right, i'm not changing the parser |
| 22:21 | <annevk> | :/ |
| 22:22 | <Hixie> | i just don't want it to be possible to write pages that are conforming but parse as something very different |
| 22:22 | <Hixie> | since that would be dumb |
| 22:23 | <annevk> | is this about </head><style> still? |
| 22:23 | <Hixie> | hm, i also need to make <script> not be allowed at the start of <body> for the same reason |
| 22:23 | <Hixie> | actually maybe i just need to make the syntax section clearer |
| 22:23 | <Hixie> | and say that the tag can't be omitted |
| 22:24 | <annevk> | oh, I see |
| 22:24 | annevk | thought Hixie was proposing changing the parser |
| 22:24 | <Hixie> | no no |
| 22:25 | <Hixie> | oh hey what do you know |
| 22:25 | <Hixie> | the writing section already covers this |
| 22:27 | <annevk> | heh, the IE people have discovered the DOM Core bug as well |
| 22:29 | <roc> | I think I pissed off someone at Adobe |
| 22:31 | <annevk> | jd hmm |
| 22:31 | <Dashiva> | roc: Your pdfs won't open anymore? |
| 22:33 | <othermaciej> | roc: why do you say that? |
| 22:33 | <othermaciej> | annevk: I proposed errataing that years ago, sigh |
| 22:33 | <roc> | "<em>"since they're not standards they probably won't ever be invited to this party."</em> uh-oh, that sounds a little closed and exclusionary there...! :(" |
| 22:34 | <annevk> | so we need to actively invest time in making stuff work with proprietary platforms we don't believe in? classic |
| 22:35 | <Dashiva> | That's what they pay w3c for, isn't it? |
| 22:35 | <othermaciej> | as did you |
| 22:35 | <Hixie> | we don't, but it makes sense that they'd try to make us |
| 22:35 | <roc> | as a practical matter we do have to invest in plugins |
| 22:36 | <roc> | ooh |
| 22:36 | <roc> | what the Web needs: NPAPI5 |
| 22:36 | <othermaciej> | well, AIR is a valiant effort on their part to mix Flash with real Web content in more interesting ways |
| 22:36 | <othermaciej> | but it's not actually available on the web |
| 22:36 | <othermaciej> | and they intentionally crippled the WebKit part of AIR and have not been upgrading it since |
| 22:52 | <annevk> | yet more MS delay |
| 22:59 | <Hixie> | oh jeez |
| 22:59 | <Hixie> | microsoft are writing a Paper |
| 22:59 | <Hixie> | so |
| 22:59 | <Hixie> | glad |
| 23:00 | <Hixie> | that you took xhr from me |
| 23:00 | <gsnedders> | We'll make annevk regret it! |
| 23:05 | <annevk> | makes you wonder what they're planning for html5 |
| 23:06 | <Hixie> | oh they've tried hard to delay html5 |
| 23:06 | <Hixie> | without success so far (except for delaying the start of the patent clock) |
| 23:10 | <Hixie> | crap, the parser reports an error for <!DOCTYPE HTML><div><li><rp><li></div> |
| 23:12 | <Hixie> | i guess <li> should generate implied end tags...? |
| 23:12 | <Hixie> | why doesn't it |
| 23:12 | <Hixie> | hm |
| 23:13 | <Hixie> | oh i see |
| 23:13 | <Hixie> | until i added <rp> and <rt> it wasn't necessary |
| 23:13 | <Hixie> | oops |
| 23:15 | <annevk> | wh is the parse error an issue? |
| 23:21 | <Hixie> | well, it's extraneous |
| 23:21 | <Hixie> | the error is the missing <ruby> |
| 23:22 | <Hixie> | not the missing </rp> |
| 23:23 | <annevk> | fair enough |
| 23:55 | <jgraham_> | http://james.html5.org/temp/html5lib-0.11.zip a second attempt at html5lib-0.11 |