| 04:22 | <Hixie> | I love how readyState is an integer on most interfaces, but a string on DOMString |
| 04:22 | <Hixie> | er |
| 04:22 | <Hixie> | Document |
| 07:17 | <Hixie> | http://www.thewebsiteisdown.com/ is the funniest thing i've seen for weeks |
| 07:30 | <Hixie> | what do you call the way of encoding integers that uses the top bit to indicate if there's more to come again? |
| 08:11 | <annevk> | http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/blogspot/MKuf/~3/323764470/google-learns-to-crawl-flash.html :/ |
| 08:12 | <Hixie> | oh cool, we finally launched that |
| 08:14 | <annevk> | yum, WebSocket |
| 08:18 | <annevk> | there are several markup errors below the readyState def |
| 08:18 | <Hixie> | there are? |
| 08:18 | <Hixie> | i may have fixed them already |
| 08:19 | <annevk> | oops, I hit F5 while the bandwidth here is terrible... |
| 08:20 | <annevk> | they advertize high speed but you get 6kb |
| 08:20 | <Hixie> | i should go to bed, i have to get up in 6 hours to catch a plane to meet you |
| 08:21 | <annevk> | i just woke up again :/ |
| 08:21 | <annevk> | but yeah, sounds like a plan :) |
| 08:22 | <annevk> | (seems to be fixed btw) |
| 08:25 | <Hixie> | what building is this meeting in again? |
| 08:25 | <annevk> | 122 |
| 08:25 | <Hixie> | nm found it |
| 08:25 | <annevk> | see http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/Group/f2f0807.html |
| 08:26 | <Hixie> | yeah found it |
| 08:26 | <Hixie> | i'll be on Southwest Flight #3506 SJC-SEA, landing at 10:50am, so i should be there by 1pm |
| 08:27 | <Hixie> | nn |
| 08:27 | <annevk> | k, g'n |
| 14:34 | <tefery> | hellow |
| 14:47 | <hendry> | hsivonen: why do i get a bad value with a data url on http://static.webvm.net/wct/test.html |
| 14:47 | <hendry> | with validator.nu? :) |
| 14:49 | <zcorpan> | hendry: line breaks |
| 14:52 | <hendry> | zcorpan: oh thanks |
| 14:54 | <hendry> | zcorpan: i was just looking at http://simon.html5.org/articles/mobile-results btw |
| 14:55 | <hendry> | zcorpan: perhaps you had a suggestion for the "Web Compatibility Test for Mobile Browsers"? |
| 15:25 | <hsivonen> | hendry: Valid data URIs forbid all sorts of convenience |
| 15:33 | <philipj> | m |
| 15:35 | <hendry> | hsivonen: i don't understand ? |
| 15:36 | <annevk> | maybe there should be an exception for data: |
| 15:37 | <hsivonen> | hendry: unescaped spaces, etc. aren't allowed |
| 15:43 | <zcorpan> | hendry: i did but i don't know if my suggestions have been implemented |
| 15:48 | <hendry> | zcorpan: i think they are in test #5 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mwts/2008Jul/0002.html |
| 15:49 | <hendry> | hsivonen: oh ok. well when i tested the "line broken" url in a couple of browsers, it worked fine. |
| 15:58 | <zcorpan> | hendry: ah yep, although it doesn't test drocanianness |
| 16:01 | <zcorpan> | Philip`_: hmm, why does http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/2d.path.arcTo.shape.curve1.html say Passed in opera 9.5? |
| 16:04 | <zcorpan> | Philip`_: is http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/2d.fillRect.zero.html correct? |
| 16:08 | <zcorpan> | http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/2d.path.arc.selfintersect.1.html |
| 16:21 | <annevk> | (it says pass because presumably not enough points are compared) |
| 16:32 | <Philip`> | zcorpan: What annevk said |
| 16:33 | <Philip`> | I'll fix the test so that it fails :-) |
| 16:33 | <annevk> | it shouldn't be too expensive to just compare all points, no? |
| 16:33 | <Philip`> | (Well, I'll fix my offline copy, but I won't bother uploading it since that takes way too much effort) |
| 16:33 | <annevk> | at least when the end result is all lime |
| 16:34 | <annevk> | anyway, time to find some food |
| 16:34 | <Philip`> | annevk: That doesn't really work due to antialiasing - it needs to avoid comparing pixels around the edges of shapes, else it'll fail due to unnoticeable blending differences |
| 16:37 | <Philip`> | zcorpan: 2d.fillRect.zero is wrong - I already fixed that in my offline copy but didn't bother uploading it :-( |
| 16:40 | <Philip`> | zcorpan: Changed my thing so that 2d.path.arc.selfintersect.1 fails too - it's not meant to be testing for that bug but I suppose there's no reason why it shouldn't |
| 17:07 | <gsnedders> | Philip`, jgraham: Either of you have my phone number? I'm gonna be offline from tonight till next Tues/Wed, so it may be worthwhile for (at least) one of you to have it |
| 17:08 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: I don't know whether either of us has it |
| 17:08 | <gsnedders> | it's at the end of http://stuff.gsnedders.com/http-parsing.txt |
| 17:08 | <Philip`> | (hence you can logically deduce that I don't have it) |
| 17:09 | Philip` | saves that somewhere |
| 17:10 | <gsnedders> | (it also has my address if anyone wants to stalk me) |
| 17:13 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Did we agree some specific time? Grep says "20080707" / "7-ish" / same location as before, but I don't have any clocks with 7-ish marked on them so I wouldn't be quite sure when that is |
| 17:13 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: 20080707T190000+01 |
| 17:13 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: 20080707T190000+0100 to be exact |
| 17:14 | <Philip`> | 20080707T190+0100 is probably as specific as I can manage :-) |
| 17:14 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Yeah, I was guessing you'd be late, again :P |
| 17:14 | <Philip`> | Anyway, sounds fine to me |
| 17:15 | <Philip`> | as long as someone reminds me in case I forget |
| 17:16 | <gsnedders> | Well, I know how long it takes to get there, now, so perhaps I can be on time |
| 17:18 | Philip` | sets up cron as a reminder, though he's probably set it up wrong |
| 17:20 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: remind Philip` |
| 17:21 | <gsnedders> | that's about as much as I can do to remind you :P |
| 18:15 | <Dashiva> | Oh snap. Did RB just call Hixie incompetent? |
| 18:16 | <krijnh> | Isn't he implying that all the time? :) |
| 18:17 | <Dashiva> | Fair enough, but this one surprised me: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=5822#c2 |
| 18:18 | <annevk> | http://isen.com/blog/2008/05/four-paths-to-nz-internet-leadership.html |
| 18:24 | <krijnh> | Dashiva: it has the same tone as every other mail he sends.. |
| 18:25 | <krijnh> | annevk: no news about logging #webapps? :) |
| 18:25 | <Dashiva> | Not much point. Nobody talks there outside of telcons, and they don't have the telcons there if it's logged :) |
| 18:26 | <krijnh> | Ke, makes sense |
| 18:29 | <Philip`> | The process around the logging reveals more than the logging itself would :-) |
| 18:30 | <krijnh> | :) |
| 18:30 | <Dashiva> | Without it I would never have learned what "open" actually means |
| 18:45 | <Dashiva> | So now that URLs are nearing as-done-as-it-gets, I wonder if we'll see WF2 work |
| 18:50 | <jcranmer> | Dashiva: I think he, in calling Hixie incompetent, showed his incompetency |
| 19:04 | <annevk> | http://isen.com/blog/2008/03/next-president-internet-policy.html |
| 19:20 | <Hixie> | merry mailman mailing list reminder day everyone |
| 19:22 | <Hixie> | wow, we've beaten the www-html daily traffic record for some time |
| 19:22 | <annevk> | whatwg⊙wo ? |
| 19:23 | <gsnedders> | jcranmer: who? |
| 19:23 | <jcranmer> | gsnedders: RB |
| 19:23 | <gsnedders> | jcranmer: ah |
| 19:23 | <jcranmer> | conversation happened 3 min before you arrived |
| 19:23 | <gsnedders> | damned Apple releasing system updates! |
| 19:25 | gsnedders | reads his description of what the header is for, and wonders what the use of something that complex is |
| 19:25 | <jgraham> | RB's comment was funny. I mean I think there might be a legitimate reason for the feature request but the way he phrased his comment suggests that he's either oblivious or taking the piss |
| 19:25 | <Hixie> | no i mean more traffic to www-html than we've had for days |
| 19:26 | <gsnedders> | that's it, we need a better mailing list. |
| 19:26 | <annevk> | ah |
| 19:26 | <gsnedders> | gsnedders-is-awesome, anybody? |
| 19:33 | <JaffaTheCake> | hullo |
| 19:34 | <JaffaTheCake> | Anyone alive that can answer some questions on <abbr>? |
| 19:34 | <annevk> | sure |
| 19:35 | <JaffaTheCake> | Looking at the html4 & xhtml2 specs, it seems to suggest that anything that can have an expansion should be wrapped in <abbr title=""></abbr> |
| 19:36 | <annevk> | not the case in HTML5 |
| 19:36 | <Hixie> | yeah you only need to wrap abbreviations you want to annotate, basically |
| 19:36 | <JaffaTheCake> | However, the html5 spec seems to suggest only abbreviations that are vocally pronounced should have the abbr element |
| 19:36 | <JaffaTheCake> | ahh |
| 19:36 | <JaffaTheCake> | excellent |
| 19:36 | <JaffaTheCake> | That was my reading |
| 19:36 | <JaffaTheCake> | Just checking |
| 19:36 | <Hixie> | doesn't have to just be the vocally pronounced ones necessarily |
| 19:36 | <Hixie> | just the ones you want to annotate with an expansion :-) |
| 19:37 | <JaffaTheCake> | fair enough |
| 19:37 | <JaffaTheCake> | I guess the microformat abbr date pattern goes against that thinking? |
| 19:38 | <Hixie> | in html5 instead of <abbr> for date and times you can use <time> :-) |
| 19:38 | <jcranmer> | forget mailing lists, someone needs to update mailman to use HTML 5 |
| 19:39 | <jcranmer> | or at least HTML 4.01 |
| 19:40 | <annevk> | or have it use the W3C mailing list software |
| 19:40 | <JaffaTheCake> | Yeah, saw the time thingy, great to finally have that in a spec. |
| 19:40 | <Hixie> | the w3c mailing list software is pretty awesome except for one thing, which is the way it doesn't do cross-references across mailing lists or months |
| 19:41 | <JaffaTheCake> | But I think it's worth following the html5 idea of abbr now, or at least as much as you can while still being valid html4 |
| 19:42 | <JaffaTheCake> | So I'm guessing <abbr title="2008-07-07">next Monday</abbr> would be a misuse of abbr in html5's eyes |
| 19:42 | <jcranmer> | Hixie: I'm working on trying to fix that, at least for a select group of users :-) |
| 19:42 | <JaffaTheCake> | ignoring that html5 has a better tag for the job |
| 19:44 | <Hixie> | JaffaTheCake: yeah |
| 19:45 | <othermaciej> | yeah it is always a pain to read cross-month threads via the archives |
| 19:45 | <JaffaTheCake> | Cheers guys |
| 19:47 | <JaffaTheCake> | It's probably worth expending the bit on abbr in the spec to make it completely clear (more examples and such), unless I'm alone in my dumbness. It's frequently abused to it's worth keeping ambiguity to a minimum |
| 19:49 | <Hixie> | it has five examples already :-) |
| 19:49 | <Hixie> | but i'd be happy to add more |
| 19:57 | <hsivonen> | looks like the term "benevolent dictator" is a PR problem outside the Python communtity |
| 19:57 | <hsivonen> | http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/06/what_benevolent_dictator.html |
| 19:58 | <Dashiva> | They should use philosopher king instead then ;) |
| 20:02 | Hixie | comments unproductively on that blog post |
| 20:24 | <JaffaTheCake> | Hixie: Perhaps not another example then, but a bit more on when it would be used and when it wouldn't (and why). Especially as it's a significant difference from HTML4 |
| 20:31 | <Hixie> | could you send an e-mail to that effect to whatwg⊙wo? (otherwise i'll forget, i'm deep in the web sockets stuff right now) |
| 20:33 | <JaffaTheCake> | Yeah sure |
| 20:33 | <JaffaTheCake> | no probs |
| 20:35 | jgraham | wonders if he is the only person who is irritated by the W3C's comment moderation system |
| 20:39 | <Hixie> | JaffaTheCake: thanks dude |
| 20:41 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: Thanks for the recent fixes for the bugs I filed. |
| 20:42 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I'm a bit surprised, though, that you opted to qualify the scopingness of the non-foreignObject stack nodes by the HTML namespace |
| 20:42 | <hsivonen> | I'll have to study what the effect is, since not all of them break out of foreign content |
| 20:42 | <Hixie> | hm? |
| 20:43 | <Hixie> | i wasn't aware that i had done something surprising |
| 20:43 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: could you elaborate? |
| 20:44 | <Hixie> | maybe it was unintentional |
| 20:46 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: consider http://parsetree.validator.nu/?parser=html5&content=%3Cmath%3E%3Cmrow%3Efoo%3Cobject%3Ebar%3C%2Fmrow%3Ebaz%3C%2Fobject%3E%3C%2Fmath%3E&submit=Print+Tree |
| 20:47 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: in my implementation, the scoping elements other than foreignObject retain their scopingness even if assigned to a foreign namespace |
| 20:47 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I thought this was intentional to minimize tree shape differences of cargo cult paste |
| 20:48 | <hsivonen> | vs. http://parsetree.validator.nu/?parser=html5&content=%3Cmath%3E%3Cmrow%3Efoo%3Cnot-object%3Ebar%3C%2Fmrow%3Ebaz%3C%2Fnot-object%3E%3C%2Fmath%3E&submit=Print+Tree |
| 20:55 | <Hixie> | oh good lord no, that was never itended |
| 20:55 | <Hixie> | intended |
| 20:55 | <Hixie> | if that had been intended it wouldn't have linked to the definitions of the elements |
| 20:56 | <hsivonen> | hmm interesting. I guess I'll have some code to change then |
| 20:57 | <hsivonen> | as far as I could tell, what I implemented matched the spririt of the foreign content design |
| 21:00 | <Hixie> | that would just lead to really weird effects |
| 21:00 | <Hixie> | my intent was to make the foreign content as surprise-free as possible |
| 21:00 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: what weird effects? one would never notice with proper nesting |
| 21:01 | <Hixie> | sure but one missed end tag (or /) and boom, the whole dom goes weird |
| 21:01 | <hsivonen> | one would never notice with what's today valid MathML or SVG, either |
| 21:05 | <hsivonen> | OK. I'll make the scoping HTML elements non-scoping, but I think that to make things non-weird, <font> really can't unconditionally break foreign content |
| 21:06 | <Hixie> | <font> needs research |
| 21:10 | <Hixie> | annevk, weinig, othermaciej: the binary stuff is a v2 feature anyway, we'll see if we can get browsers doing UTF-8 first! |
| 21:10 | weinig | nods |
| 21:10 | <othermaciej> | yeah as long as the protocol is prepared for different packet types |
| 21:10 | <Hixie> | yep |
| 21:11 | <Hixie> | my protocol strawman is: |
| 21:11 | <annevk> | i suppose you can .data, and .bytes or .blob in the future |
| 21:11 | <annevk> | can have* |
| 21:11 | <Hixie> | text frame: 0x00 [zero or more UTF-8 bytes] 0xFF |
| 21:12 | <annevk> | adding members to Event interfaces shows how broken the init* stuff is |
| 21:12 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: I think type/length prefix would be better than start and end delimiters |
| 21:12 | <Hixie> | other frames: if the first byte & 0x80 == 0x00, then read bytes until 0xFF and then discard |
| 21:12 | <Hixie> | other frames: if the first byte & 0x80 == 0x80, then read a length (7-bit extended integer) and then read that many bytes and then discard |
| 21:13 | <Hixie> | (binary data will use frame type 0x80 in a future version) |
| 21:13 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: you don't want the server to have to measure UTF-8 strings, it's too easy to get it wrong and not notice for a long time (e.g. if you only test with ASCII) |
| 21:13 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: but for binary data you want a length, hence the other frame type |
| 21:15 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: I see your point about measuring but having both approaches also seems risky, since clients will have to support both to correctly find packet boundaries but one will likely be untested in the wild at first |
| 21:16 | <othermaciej> | (gonna try to pay attention to meeting now) |
| 21:16 | <hsivonen> | do Web Sockets violate Architecture if they use GET? |
| 21:16 | <hsivonen> | do they use GET? |
| 21:17 | <Hixie> | they're not HTTP |
| 21:17 | <Hixie> | that's my line and i'm sticking to it |
| 21:20 | <hsivonen> | my gut tells to use a non-cacheable method for handshake, but I don't have any substance for this gut feeling |
| 21:20 | <Hixie> | who would be doing the caching? |
| 21:20 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: a proxy |
| 21:21 | <Hixie> | the proxy doesn't see the request, you do a CONNECT to it like with TLS |
| 21:21 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: a transparent proxy so that the browser doesn't know it is talking to a proxy |
| 21:22 | <hsivonen> | hmm. will Web Sockets break with transparent proxies anyway? |
| 21:23 | <Hixie> | so the problem case is when client accesses server, server doesn't yet do Web Sockets and so returns a 200 OK, and then later the client tries to connect again and the cache says "200 OK" instead of upgrading? |
| 21:23 | hsivonen | wonders if transparent proxies are in violation of Architecture |
| 21:23 | <Hixie> | btw i recently learnt that what we call "transparent proxies" aren't what http calls "transparent proxies" |
| 21:24 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: the problem is that the proxy manages to cache a response for someone else first without proper Vary stuff |
| 21:24 | <hsivonen> | but like I said, my gut feeling has no substance |
| 21:26 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: did you consider minting a method like SOCKET or WEBSOCKET and rejected it? |
| 21:30 | <hsivonen> | does MSN search inside silverlight content? |
| 21:31 | <Hixie> | i considered it |
| 21:32 | <Hixie> | wasn't really sure what to do about it |
| 21:32 | <Hixie> | i guess we could |
| 21:34 | <annevk> | servers handle custom methods quite well nowadays |
| 21:35 | <hsivonen> | hmm. now that I think about it, minting a new method will need testing with AJP13 and mod_jk |
| 21:36 | <hsivonen> | unless, of course, there's a reason why mod_jk can't exist on a socket path anyway |
| 21:36 | <Hixie> | no idea |
| 21:37 | <hsivonen> | in any case, Web Sockets is the kind of thing you'd expect people to want to implement in a process whose Web connectivity goes through mod_jk |
| 21:53 | <hsivonen> | annevk: so it turns out that Standards Suck is available to S60 phones on YouTube, but there's no way to navigate to it from standardssuck.org |
| 21:54 | <annevk> | weird |
| 21:54 | <hsivonen> | clearly, we need support for HTML5 video in both browsers for S60 and on YouTube |
| 21:54 | <annevk> | yes |
| 21:58 | <hsivonen> | http://m.youtube.com/profile?user=standardssuck&warned=1 |
| 23:03 | Philip` | wonders if switching from Xerces-C to libxml2 is sane |
| 23:03 | <Dashiva> | It's got x and 2, how can it not be? |
| 23:05 | <Philip`> | But Xerces reminds me of Persian kings, which has to count for something |