| 01:07 | <jacobolus> | annevk: is it well known that «context».translate, «context».scale, and «context».rotate() work exactly the opposite in Opera as they do in Gecko and Webkit? |
| 01:07 | <jacobolus> | (these are canvas operations) |
| 01:10 | <annevk> | I'm not sure. I'd suggest to file a bug at https://bugs.opera.com/wizard/ |
| 01:10 | <annevk> | I'm in a meeting atm |
| 01:10 | <annevk> | (and sleepy) |
| 01:10 | <jacobolus> | no worries |
| 01:14 | <jacobolus> | Hixie: I found a whatwg mailing list post of yours which states that opera's behavior is per the spec, and gecko/webkit are doing it wrong. But it seems to me like it could go either way. Why did the spec pick Opera’s way, if it in fact did? |
| 01:14 | <jacobolus> | The way Gecko/Webkit work is that transforms affect the origin/direction/scale of the "pen" which will draw a line, but then once something is drawn, it stays put, so the way to do transformations is to apply them *before* drawing. |
| 01:14 | <jacobolus> | In Opera (and perhaps in the spec?) transformations instead affect whatever path has already been drawn, so transformations must come *after* making a path but before stroking/filling it |
| 01:15 | <Hixie> | you mean for the path construction stuff? |
| 01:15 | <jacobolus> | Either way, it means that if such transformations are to be used, they can either target webkit/gecko, or opera, but not both |
| 01:15 | <Hixie> | i believe the spec changed and opera is now wrong |
| 01:15 | <jacobolus> | ah, oky |
| 01:15 | <jacobolus> | so that mailing list message that came up in a google search is just out of date then ) |
| 01:15 | <jacobolus> | :) rather |
| 01:16 | <jacobolus> | well, have some shapes: http://www.orbited.org/wiki/CanvasShapes |
| 01:17 | <jacobolus> | Hixie: I was drawing polygons, etc. by repeatedly applying «context».rotate(«angle»); «context».moveTo(0,1) |
| 01:17 | <Hixie> | yeah, that's not longer gonna work per spec iirc |
| 01:17 | <Hixie> | no |
| 01:17 | <jacobolus> | and in opera it of course doesn’t work that way :) |
| 01:17 | <Hixie> | i expect browsers will get fixed in due course |
| 01:18 | <jacobolus> | so that is not going to be an acceptable way to draw per the spec? |
| 01:18 | <jacobolus> | because it is very convenient |
| 01:18 | <jacobolus> | and makes for quite readable code |
| 01:20 | <Hixie> | to be honest i don't recall where the spec ended up |
| 01:20 | <Hixie> | Philip` probably knows |
| 01:20 | <Hixie> | if he's around |
| 01:21 | <jacobolus> | the spec doesn't really make it clear, IMO |
| 01:21 | <jacobolus> | it just says “The transformation matrix is applied to coordinates when creating shapes and paths.” |
| 01:22 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 01:22 | <Hixie> | i'd look in more detail but i'm in a meeting right now |
| 01:22 | <Hixie> | sorry :-) |
| 01:22 | <jacobolus> | no worries. not urgent :) |
| 01:23 | <Hixie> | try pinging me again in coming days (or ask Philip`!) and i'll do a better job of answering you :-) |
| 01:23 | <jacobolus> | cool. Philip`: if you know, feel free to chime in. :) |
| 01:25 | <annevk> | he's in Europe, so might be sleeping |
| 01:25 | <jacobolus> | okay, I'll try back later, or in a few days, or something :) |
| 01:25 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 01:26 | <jacobolus> | or maybe even make a mailing list post, if I feel ambitious :) |
| 01:26 | <annevk> | I'm suggesting you try a different time :) |
| 01:26 | <annevk> | (mailing list would probably work better) |
| 01:26 | <Hixie> | e-mail would be fine, yes |
| 01:26 | <Hixie> | send it to help@ |
| 01:26 | <Hixie> | rather than whatwg@ |
| 01:26 | <Hixie> | unless you want to start a thread about changing it again :-) |
| 01:27 | <csarven> | Should <object> be only used for non-native data types? |
| 01:27 | <csarven> | I just want to get this <object> out of my system because of a few microformats issues :) |
| 01:27 | <jacobolus> | Hixie: I don’t think the spec makes it clear what the proper behavior is currently. so it probably should be made more explicit |
| 01:27 | <csarven> | annevk helped quite a bit but I just wanted to wrap it up. |
| 01:27 | <Hixie> | ah, well, then send mail to whatwg@ asking for it to be cleared up :-) |
| 01:28 | <Hixie> | it probably needs an example or something |
| 01:28 | <jacobolus> | yep. I agree. I'll maybe write up a blog post about how the two models currently work. |
| 01:28 | <jacobolus> | with some pretty pictures, etc. |
| 01:29 | <annevk> | csarven, using <object> for HTML, images, etc. is fine |
| 01:30 | <csarven> | "fine" ? |
| 01:31 | <annevk> | in general it's not needed, but it's not forbidden |
| 01:31 | <csarven> | Reading the 4.01 spec it mentions the opposite that, the intention is to handle data types that are not native to the UA |
| 01:31 | <jacobolus> | the mozilla canvas tutorial has some transformations applied before drawing whole shapes, but it doesn't seem to have considered applying transformations in the middle of drawing a path |
| 01:31 | <csarven> | But I find it slightly ambigious |
| 01:32 | <csarven> | annevk It is true that it doesn't say it must/should not be used that way but it doesn't mean it may be. |
| 01:32 | <mcarter> | hello |
| 01:32 | <mcarter> | Hixie, yt? |
| 01:33 | <Hixie> | yo |
| 01:34 | <csarven> | "Most user agents have built-in mechanisms for rendering common data types such as text, GIF images, colors, fonts, and a handful of graphic elements. To render data types they don't support natively, user agents generally run external applications. The OBJECT element allows authors to control whether data should be rendered externally or by some program, specified by the author, that renders the data within the user agent." http |
| 01:34 | <mcarter> | Hixie, i'm on a different machine -- I don't suppose you have that link handy with the notes you made? |
| 01:35 | <Hixie> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/notes |
| 01:35 | <Hixie> | i started speccing it, you can see what i have so far here: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#network |
| 01:37 | <csarven> | annevk Also, when you say "not forbidden", what purpose would it then serve if it is used for native data types? |
| 01:38 | <annevk> | dunno, embedding data with rich data |
| 01:38 | <annevk> | rich fallback data, oops |
| 01:39 | <csarven> | I'm not sure if I understand that. Got an example? |
| 01:40 | <Hixie> | mcarter: (see above, in case you missed my comments) |
| 01:43 | <csarven> | The 4.01 spec only mentions that it is intended for non-native data types. Is there anything that suggests that it *may* be used for native data types other then the fact that it doesn't say it *should not* or *must not* be used for native data types? |
| 01:44 | <mcarter> | Hixie, I think the WebSocketReadEvent interface should have a type or dataType attribute, for when we can receive binary data as well as text |
| 01:45 | <Hixie> | i was thinking of have ontext instead of onread |
| 01:45 | <Hixie> | of having |
| 01:45 | <annevk> | we should just add .blob to it when that happens |
| 01:45 | <annevk> | well, maybe |
| 01:47 | <mcarter> | I prefer onread with evt.datatype to ontext and onblob (or whatever we would call it), but i'm not sure why i prefer it |
| 01:47 | <Hixie> | well for now there's only text anyway |
| 01:47 | <annevk> | why'd you need datatype? you probably know what you're going to communicate in |
| 01:47 | <annevk> | and if not you can check which of the two is empty and use the other |
| 01:48 | <Hixie> | annevk: when we add binary data you'd get a mixture |
| 01:48 | <jacobolus> | mcarter: maybe because it would preserve order? |
| 01:48 | <annevk> | isn't it decided by the handshake which one is going to be filled? |
| 01:48 | <mcarter> | jacobolus, I was thinking that, but it doesn't matter either way |
| 01:48 | <annevk> | seems a bit weird to have strangely decoded UTF-8 when you transmit "binary" |
| 01:48 | <kangax> | Is this the right place to ask about canvas? |
| 01:49 | <jacobolus> | kangax: you can ask me anyway. i just spent a day trying to figure it out :) |
| 01:50 | <kangax> | jacobolus: I can't find a native way to output text |
| 01:50 | <jacobolus> | kangax: yeah, that only works in some browsers (firefox 3 maybe?) |
| 01:50 | <kangax> | damn |
| 01:51 | <jacobolus> | kangax: the way people do it is to make other html elements and layer them over the top of the canvas :) |
| 01:51 | <annevk> | next generation of Web browsers likely :/ |
| 01:51 | <annevk> | or create small images for letters |
| 01:51 | <jacobolus> | kangax: but obviously that's not a great solution |
| 01:51 | <kangax> | I am looking at cvi_text_lib which simulates text output |
| 01:51 | <Hixie> | bbl |
| 01:52 | <Hixie> | spec is work in progress |
| 01:52 | <kangax> | it's pretty slow when rotating/moving the text |
| 01:52 | <Hixie> | but feel free to give comments here |
| 01:52 | <Hixie> | later |
| 01:52 | <jacobolus> | kangax: SVG does text ;) |
| 01:52 | <kangax> | Is it supported by A-grade browsers? |
| 01:52 | <kangax> | (svg) |
| 01:53 | <jacobolus> | what's A-grade? :) |
| 01:53 | <jacobolus> | it's supported by recent gecko/webkit/opera |
| 01:53 | <kangax> | FF2+, IE6+, S2+, O9+ |
| 01:53 | <jacobolus> | and by a plugin from adobe |
| 01:53 | <roc> | Firefox trunk supports the HTML5 text APIs for canvas |
| 01:54 | <mcarter> | kangax, IE6 gets a C- in my book... |
| 01:54 | <jacobolus> | kangax: there's no drawing api with text supported by all of those, no |
| 01:54 | <kangax> | roc: interesting... I wish I could afford supporting FF only |
| 01:54 | <roc> | so you can play with that and your code should work in the next version of Firefox and the other good browsers |
| 01:55 | <kangax> | I'm just trying to figure out if it's best to go with flash or of I can actually make JS do what I need |
| 01:55 | <jacobolus> | kangax: what do you need? |
| 01:55 | <roc> | if you need it to work in IE then you should probably go with Flash :-( |
| 01:56 | <kangax> | text (rotatiion/moving/letter-by-letter coloring), user images (moving/rotation/resizing) |
| 09:24 | <jacobolus> | Hixie: ah, according to http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-June/015058.html you’ve got it figured out now, and the Opera behavior is wrong, while Webkit/Gecko are correct. So then the only suggestion I have is that an example is needed, and the spec needs to be more explicit |
| 09:32 | <Windstoss> | Provided, you define a opportunistic caching namespace that matches all URLs of an "GET-only" Website. You don't assign any URLs to this namespace. Now, a user browses this Website. When he goes offline for some reason and revisits the website, would he be able to browse all sites he browsed when he was online? |
| 09:50 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I don't understand your "unproductive" comment on the dictator blog post |
| 09:57 | gDashiva | assumes it relates to "The W3C process has evolved to reduce the central role of the Director." |
| 09:57 | <gDashiva> | (and the rest of that paragraph) |
| 10:41 | <Windstoss> | Alright, I think I got the bit about fallback entries wrong :( |
| 11:48 | <zcorpan> | hmm, why is http://www.pumpkinpirate.info/ks/test.html getting black edges in opera |
| 12:26 | <Philip`> | jacobolus: If you tell the canvas to transform then draw path then fill, it'll work exactly the same in all implementations, so you can write code that always works - it only differs if you transform after drawing the path |
| 12:27 | <Philip`> | jacobolus: rotate/moveTo/rotate/moveTo should work according to the spec (and Firefox and WebKit and Konqueror - see http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/results.html#2d.path.transformation.basic ) |
| 12:27 | <Philip`> | jacobolus: The spec says "The points and lines added to the path by these methods must be transformed according to the current transformation matrix as they are added." which seems clear enough to me |
| 12:27 | <Philip`> | (Someone poke me if he joins this channel so I can point him at the log :-) ) |
| 13:16 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: is http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/2d.strokeRect.zero.4.html correct? |
| 13:56 | <Philip`> | zcorpan: Yes (I think) - zero-height strokeRect draws a horizontal line (not a rect), so there's no vertical lines that should be drawn onto the visible canvas region; and strokeRect draws a closed shaped, so it doesn't have any line-caps (only line-joins), so those shouldn't draw anything visible onto the canvas |
| 13:57 | <Philip`> | (That particular case comes from when I was going through a stupid phase of unnecessarily using transparent-canvas-on-green-background to indicate success instead of solid-green-canvas - I ought to fix all those at some point in the future) |
| 13:57 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: ok... thanks |
| 15:26 | <Philip`> | zcorpan: On 2d.path.arc.shape.5 try making the canvas much larger and the lineWidth much narrower, and then you'll see how weird Opera is :-) |
| 15:27 | <Philip`> | I think I saw someone do arc(x, y, r, 0, 360, false), which triggered that bug (because 360 = lots of radians) |
| 15:31 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: whey, that's pretty weird indeed |
| 16:18 | <zcorpan> | hmm it's easy to make firefox hang by doing an arc() with a very high number for the radius argument |
| 16:20 | <hsivonen> | the CAPTCHA thing makes one go "hmm": http://www.webvisum.com/ |
| 16:23 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: icon.png deployed on validator.nu. the usual front page caching issues apply. |
| 16:23 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: thank you |
| 16:23 | <hsivonen> | hendry: see above. validator.nu now has a favicon |
| 16:25 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: cool |
| 16:26 | <zcorpan> | the V is a bit blurry but i guess it's ok |
| 16:27 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: I deployed your file bit-for-bit :-) |
| 16:27 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: yeah i know :) |
| 16:35 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: i argue that a benevolent dictator is needed for good work to result, and point to tim as an example of the w3c having a benevolent dictator. but the w3c has been doing poor work in recent years, which would be explained by tim no longer being dictator as per that post. |
| 16:35 | hsivonen | learns the term syntactic vinegar from tantek's namespaces considered harmful wiki article |
| 16:36 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: it seems though, that actually using the term "benevolent dictator" is a PR problem when your audience hasn't been socialized to know Python terminology |
| 16:36 | <hsivonen> | (both for the W3C and the WHATWG) |
| 16:36 | <Hixie> | python has a benevolent dictator? |
| 16:36 | <Hixie> | cool |
| 16:36 | <Hixie> | i guess i knew that |
| 16:37 | <Hixie> | that certainly isn't where i first heard the term |
| 16:37 | <hsivonen> | for life even |
| 16:37 | <Hixie> | but yes, most big projects have one |
| 16:37 | <Hixie> | linux, perl, python |
| 16:37 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: having one and using the term without PR issues are two different things |
| 16:38 | <Hixie> | *shrug* |
| 16:38 | <Hixie> | the term is accurate |
| 16:38 | <Hixie> | i'm not big into doublespeak |
| 16:38 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I don't follow Linux development, but I'd expect certain vendors to be able to override Linus if Linus wanted bad things |
| 16:39 | <Hixie> | no more so than in python, as far as i can tell |
| 16:40 | <Philip`> | I would guess that far more vendors ship the Linux kernel with significant patches than for Python |
| 16:40 | <hsivonen> | the PR issue is that people who aren't familiar with the concept think that the dictator can dictate anything (one person's opinion) when really the dictator can only dictate things that implementors allow the dictator to resolve |
| 16:41 | <Philip`> | so they have ultimate control over what their users run |
| 16:43 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: that isn't a problem with the term "dictator", it's a problem with the word "spec". |
| 16:43 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: c.f. the people who think the vendors should do whatever the wg resolves. |
| 16:44 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: that, too |
| 16:45 | <hsivonen> | I wonder where the supposed expert were expected to come from according to the writer of the blog post from a few days ago that advocated experts instead of browser vendors driving the spec |
| 16:46 | <Philip`> | What are they meant to be experts in? |
| 16:46 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: I don't know. They'd be experts. |
| 16:53 | <hsivonen> | someone should write up some theory with words like "indifference curve" explaining what kind of things in practice can be decided by whom |
| 16:54 | <Philip`> | Might be easier to understand if it didn't use words like "indifference curve" :-) |
| 16:57 | <hsivonen> | fwiw, I think both "dictator" and "consensus" give the wrong idea of how things really happen |
| 17:11 | <hsivonen> | I wonder if I get accused of being part of a vast browser-wing conspiracy if I blog about managing one's expectations when suggesting features for Web specs |
| 17:13 | <hsivonen> | one thing that intrigues me is how socialization happens when a new person approaches a group like the WHATWG |
| 17:13 | <annevk> | sounds useful to blog about that |
| 17:14 | <annevk> | makes things easier when someone new comes along :) |
| 17:14 | <hsivonen> | I mean: why is it that some people fit the group but some people feel frustrated that they aren't being listened to |
| 17:14 | <hsivonen> | do people get socialized |
| 17:15 | <hsivonen> | or do the opinions a person happens to hold when approaching the group predetermine if the person fits in? |
| 17:25 | <hsivonen> | do we have any documentation that indicates that "try to get a browser vendor to commit to implementing it experimentally" should be read the same way "patches welcome" should be read in an open source context? |
| 17:31 | <Philip`> | i.e. "shut up and don't come back until you've done something productive"? |
| 17:31 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: right |
| 17:34 | <Philip`> | It would be nicer if they weren't told to go away, even in politer language |
| 17:58 | gsnedders | waves |
| 18:01 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Hello |
| 18:02 | <gsnedders> | Onboard train internet access is so slow :( |
| 18:02 | <gsnedders> | and I keep getting errors trying to push the changes I made to the spec-ge |
| 18:02 | <gsnedders> | *gen |
| 18:03 | <Philip`> | Probably contention from all the passengers running BitTorrent |
| 18:03 | <gsnedders> | Got up to 12KB/s! New high! |
| 18:03 | <gsnedders> | It wasn't this bad last time :\ |
| 18:05 | <gsnedders> | Oh, well, it's not got as bad as it was when I was stuck outside Inverkeithing in May: highest was 51 _BYTES_ per second. |
| 18:05 | <gsnedders> | I was trying to download a bit of the Unicode spec at the time. It was estimating several hours remaining. For a single chapter. |
| 18:06 | Philip` | looks at his Downloads window |
| 18:06 | <Philip`> | 1323.7 KByte/s for the last thing I downloaded, which sounds much more reasonable |
| 18:06 | <gsnedders> | WHAT!? Peak it now 35KB/s! That's amazing! |
| 18:07 | <gsnedders> | (the highest I've ever got on a train would be maybe 300KB/s) |
| 18:08 | gsnedders | sighs |
| 18:08 | <gsnedders> | I _can't_ get a connection that fast at home |
| 18:25 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: i certainly don't mean "don't come back until you've done something productive"; we've had input from many people who have done nothing but make a suggestion, and that's absolutely fine |
| 18:26 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: however, when someone is told "we have considered that and rejected it because browser vendors won't implement it" and they argue back, then the real honest answer is "well then get a browser vendor to implement it" |
| 18:27 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: it's not a lie, it's not even misleading |
| 18:27 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: however, it's possible that some people do come to a working group like the whatwg with expectations that don't match what will happen (e.g. expecting suggestions to be considered without looking at previous existing content) |
| 18:28 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: (or not accepting that simplicity is a virtue for the web platform, or that a significant number of web developers will just copy and paste anything until it works) |
| 18:48 | <john_fallows> | Hixie, does the "Server-sent DOM Events" section still need "DOM" in the title? |
| 18:48 | <Hixie> | i guess not |
| 18:58 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I wasn't suggesting that the "experimental implementation" line were a lie or misleading. |
| 18:58 | <Hixie> | sure |
| 18:59 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: and suggestions are fine too |
| 19:00 | <hsivonen> | after all, I don't have commit access to any browser code base |
| 19:00 | <hsivonen> | I suggest stuff, though |
| 19:00 | <annevk> | Hixie, "websocket-uri" is obviously the wrong name! :) |
| 19:01 | <hsivonen> | but I try not to act like I were entitled to get other implement my suggestions right away |
| 19:01 | <hsivonen> | s/other/others/ |
| 19:02 | <hsivonen> | actually, I think the key to not getting too frustrated is not expecting to be entitled to swift implmentation in browsers |
| 19:07 | <takkaria> | what's the dictator blog post? |
| 19:07 | <hsivonen> | takkaria: http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/06/what_benevolent_dictator.html |
| 19:08 | <takkaria> | ah, thanks |
| 19:12 | <Hixie> | annevk: what should it be called instead (other than URL)? |
| 19:13 | <annevk> | URL is not an option? |
| 19:14 | <Hixie> | i might change it to URL, but that's not a good name either :-) |
| 19:15 | <hsivonen> | Hmm. the complexity of http://juicystudio.com/wcag/tables/complexdatatable.html is that the dataset is three-dimensional, isn't it? |
| 19:15 | <hsivonen> | actually, that's not exactly it |
| 19:16 | <hsivonen> | anyway, the table isn't immediately obvious even visually |
| 19:16 | <annevk> | Hixie, I suggest URL until something better comes up. Especially since we try to remove URI everywhere introducing it here is just confusing :) |
| 19:17 | <annevk> | Hixie, maybe location |
| 19:17 | <annevk> | though given that it holds a URL... |
| 19:52 | <Lachy> | My podcast interview has been released http://boagworld.com/podcast/124/ |
| 20:43 | <hober> | #webapps is quite quiet for a group currently f2fing |
| 20:45 | <Philip`> | Maybe they moved to #wam or something |
| 20:47 | <Philip`> | by which I mean, it looks very much like they did |
| 20:47 | <othermaciej> | yes |
| 20:49 | <annevk> | aaah, they discovered our top secret meeting channel |
| 20:49 | <Lachy> | annevk, which channel are you in? |
| 20:49 | <Philip`> | Just a lucky guess |
| 20:50 | <Lachy> | wtf? Why was the web apps meeting in #wam??? |
| 20:50 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Do you know how late the co-op is open? |
| 20:50 | <gsnedders> | (like, the one by where you live) |
| 20:51 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: 10pm every day, if I remember correctly |
| 20:52 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Ah, so I can still go out and buy something tonight. Thanks. |
| 20:52 | <gsnedders> | (i.e., I am now in town) |
| 20:53 | <Philip`> | Also, 10pm every day according to the web site, so that's likely to be the correct time |
| 20:53 | <gsnedders> | (I am also just using some random person's unencrypted wifi) |
| 20:53 | <Philip`> | though they tend to run out of food in the late evenings |
| 20:54 | <gsnedders> | Yes, my mother just said that. |
| 20:55 | <Hixie> | Lachy: their Chair told us that was how it was going to be and wouldn't entertain discussion on the subject |
| 20:55 | <Hixie> | i believe the chair works for opera, so i blame opera |
| 20:56 | <Philip`> | (Sainsbury's is open until 10pm too, and they don't have an annoyingly small selection of food, but that requires far too much effort for me to bother going there often) |
| 20:57 | <gsnedders> | I guess it's slightly closer for me, but only marginally |
| 20:57 | <gsnedders> | And for the sake of getting some juice, I'm not going to bother. |
| 20:57 | <annevk> | It took me a while to get this, but "the cloud" is basically a new word for Web servers? |
| 20:58 | <Hixie> | yes |
| 20:58 | <hsivonen> | I think "the cloud" implies that the person who runs a service doesn't know where the servers are |
| 20:59 | <annevk> | http://www.webware.com/8300-1_109-2.html?keyword=Google+Gears makes me think it's not that fine grained |
| 20:59 | <hsivonen> | (or at least I don't consider Validator.nu to be properly in the cloud, because I have an idea which part of the city the Xen VM is in) |
| 21:00 | <Hixie> | google considers its servers to be in the cloud and believe me, we know where our servers are |
| 21:00 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I would have thought that the people writing the software didn't know which server runs the code at a given moment |
| 21:01 | <Hixie> | well i wouldn't want to comment on specifics, but your assumptions may be wrong |
| 21:02 | <Philip`> | The cloud is where Web 2.0 runs |
| 21:07 | <othermaciej> | "the cloud" is mostly a term that applies from the point of view of a user or client system |
| 21:07 | <othermaciej> | their data is somewhere remote and they allegedly don't have to care where -- it is "in the cloud" |
| 21:08 | <Hixie> | right |
| 21:08 | <Hixie> | the term "cloud" refers to the diagram icon used in network topology diagrams |
| 21:08 | <Hixie> | (where the internet is represented by a cloud-like bubble) |
| 21:40 | <Philip`> | http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/07/02/ie8-security-part-iv-the-xss-filter.aspx |
| 21:42 | <Philip`> | (I guess that'll break my unlive DOM viewer...) |
| 21:45 | <Philip`> | http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/07/02/ie8-security-part-v-comprehensive-protection.aspx too - window.toStaticHTML(), native JSON, content-type sniffing changes, "Content-Type: text/plain; authoritative=true" |
| 21:47 | <Philip`> | and changes to <input type=file>.value |
| 21:47 | <Hixie> | wtf is this xss filter |
| 21:48 | <Hixie> | it just blocks anything that says "><script> ? |
| 21:48 | <annevk> | you can probably ask the guy who posted that blog post during the break |
| 21:48 | <annevk> | he's in the room |
| 21:49 | <annevk> | next to shepazu |
| 21:50 | <Hixie> | LOL |
| 21:50 | <Hixie> | "authoritative=true" |
| 21:50 | <Hixie> | that's awesometastic |
| 21:50 | <annevk> | not exactly "out loud" :p |
| 21:51 | <Philip`> | Hixie: It sounds like it looks for suspicious strings in the request, and for similar strings in the response, and blocks them if the complex undocumented heuristics say it's probably XSS |
| 21:52 | <Philip`> | Does HTML5 say a JS file served with Content-Type: text/javascript; authoritative=true must not be executed because it's got unknown type parameters? |
| 21:53 | <Hixie> | i believe so, yes |
| 21:55 | <gsnedders> | 3l of good juice for £2.50. Not bad. |
| 21:56 | <gsnedders> | And it did seem to have plenty of stuff, interestingly, despite both Philip` and my mother's warnings |
| 21:57 | <Philip`> | Well, it always has plenty of stuff, but often not of the few specific things I'm looking for :-( |
| 22:09 | Hixie | has finished the client-side requirements for Web Sockets |
| 22:09 | <gsnedders> | Hmm, this wi-fi comes and goes |
| 22:13 | <roc> | handy rule: anyone who writes "PhD" after their name is likely to be a jerk |
| 22:14 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Knock on your neighbour's door and tell them off for having rubbish wireless |
| 22:14 | <gsnedders> | That means going across to the next block of flats, and that's too much effort |
| 22:14 | <gsnedders> | and it's my uncle's flat :P |
| 22:15 | <Philip`> | Or go to http://192.168.0.1 (password "" or "admin") and see if you can reconfigure the wireless signal |
| 22:16 | <Philip`> | Also, get irssi+screen+ssh so you don't miss the exciting happenings while you are disconnected :-) |
| 22:16 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: someday I will :P |
| 22:17 | <Lachy> | I need a server that I can run irssi+screen on, before I can do that |
| 22:17 | <Philip`> | Find an unencrypted wireless router and replace its firmware with Linux and use that as your server |
| 22:18 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Can we actually put authorative=true in the HTML 5 spec? I mean, it won't break anything |
| 22:18 | <Lachy> | hmm, that's an interesting idea |
| 22:18 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, what is authorative=true? |
| 22:19 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: IE8b2 supports "Content-Type: text/plain; authoritative=true", which makes the Content-Type trusted |
| 22:19 | <Lachy> | oh |
| 22:19 | <Lachy> | why don't they just stop implementing content sniffing? |
| 22:20 | <gsnedders> | far too much relies upon it |
| 22:20 | <Lachy> | I don't care |
| 22:20 | <gsnedders> | I do :) |
| 22:20 | <gsnedders> | It'd break as much as requiring an SGML parser to be used for text/html, almost |
| 22:20 | <Lachy> | other browsers don't implment it as badly as IE does |
| 22:21 | <gsnedders> | They're making it better in IE8, though |
| 22:21 | <Lachy> | sniffing binary files served as text/plain is ok, but IE goes too far by sniffing text/html |
| 22:21 | <gsnedders> | You need to sniff text/html for whether it is a feed, but no more |
| 22:22 | <Lachy> | was IE8b2 released yet? |
| 22:22 | <gsnedders> | Nope |
| 22:22 | <Lachy> | ah, then where did you hear about authoritative=1 from? |
| 22:22 | <Philip`> | Lachy: http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/ |
| 22:23 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: there's a load posted on the IE blog about what's coming |
| 22:23 | <Philip`> | (See the latest three posts) |
| 22:23 | <gsnedders> | The York Open Day managed to totally put me off CS there, FWIW |
| 22:24 | <Philip`> | What did they do wrong? |
| 22:24 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, oh, I must have missed reading that last blog post |
| 22:24 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: They care about the really high level, and the really low level, but not really anything between |
| 22:25 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Like software engineering and digital electronics but no programming, or something like that? |
| 22:25 | <Lachy> | omg, X-Download-Options looks a bit silly |
| 22:26 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Well, only programming is Java, and yeah, doing those two |
| 22:27 | <roc> | I wonder about "authoritative=true" |
| 22:27 | <roc> | I wonder if we'll later have "really-authoritative=true" |
| 22:28 | <gsnedders> | Well, if other browsers don't do it, then we might end up like that :P |
| 22:29 | <Philip`> | roc: That won't be needed - just use "authoritative=truer" |
| 22:29 | Philip` | wonders what authoritative=false will do |
| 22:29 | <roc> | authoritative=IE8 |
| 22:30 | <Philip`> | X-Sniffing-Algorithm: ie8 |
| 22:30 | <Lachy> | roc, would that mean that other browsers need to ask IE8 what it would do before proceeding? |
| 22:30 | <roc> | so their toStaticHTML proposal might be worth something |
| 22:31 | <roc> | Lachy: yeah I think so. Maybe Microsoft should have a Web service that other browsers can hand content to for IE8 rendering |
| 22:32 | <Lachy> | roc, nah, other browsers should just secretly embed IE8's rendering engine in their own products |
| 22:32 | <Lachy> | then we'll have perfect interoperability |
| 22:32 | <Philip`> | Lachy: Only if nobody ever upgrades to IE9 |
| 22:42 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: it's a retarded idea |
| 22:42 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: FWIW York's open day totally put me off from going there but for different reasons |
| 22:42 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: it'll just get content-sniffed itself in a few years |
| 22:43 | <Hixie> | roc: yeah i'm looking forward to being able to reverse engineer this and work out what they missed |
| 22:43 | <Hixie> | roc: though i think sandboxed iframes might be a better solution in practice (with doc="" maybe) |
| 22:43 | <Philip`> | Maybe IIS will start sending authoritative=true by default on all content, for security |
| 22:44 | <Hixie> | Philip`: that would make it be sniffed even quicker |
| 22:44 | <Hixie> | Philip`: since IE7 will still sniff on those pages |
| 22:44 | <roc> | yeah, sandboxes IFRAMEs would be considerably more powerful. |
| 22:44 | <Philip`> | Maybe IIS will UA-sniff and send authoritative=true to IE8 |
| 22:45 | <roc> | someone should lean on MS to put toStaticHTML through a standards group |
| 22:47 | <jcranmer> | where's the WebIDL stuff defined? |
| 22:48 | <jcranmer> | nm, found it |
| 22:48 | jcranmer | wonders why they name it "DOM-Bindings" still |
| 22:50 | <Lachy> | Philip`, according to a browser upgrade study done by Google and other companies, no-one upgrades IE anyway. |
| 22:50 | <Hixie> | jcranmer: it is renamed |
| 22:50 | <Hixie> | jcranmer: http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/ |
| 22:50 | <annevk> | it's a bit weird why it was moved |
| 22:51 | <annevk> | maybe I should not care |
| 22:51 | <jcranmer> | hmm, very recently renamed :-) |
| 22:51 | <jcranmer> | they haven't changed over DOM-Bindings link to point to WebIDL |
| 22:58 | <Lachy> | has anyone listened to my boagworld interview yet? Any feedback for me? |
| 23:22 | <Lachy> | they finally get to my interview at about 30 minutes into the show. |
| 23:25 | <Hixie> | cool, look forward to listening to it |
| 23:25 | <Hixie> | probably monday |