| 02:33 | <Hixie> | i wish i'd spelt it <eventsource> |
| 02:33 | <Hixie> | i wonder if it's too late to change it |
| 02:33 | <Hixie> | only opera implements it right? |
| 02:33 | <jacobolus> | Hixie: yes, only opera |
| 02:34 | <Philip`> | Events ource? |
| 02:34 | Hixie | looks around for an opera person to hassle |
| 02:34 | Philip` | likes explicit word separators |
| 02:34 | <jacobolus> | Philip`: psycho the rapist? |
| 02:34 | <Hixie> | Philip`: yeah but none of the other html elements have hyphens |
| 02:34 | <Hixie> | and precious few attributes do either |
| 02:34 | <Hixie> | (only http-equiv?) |
| 02:35 | <jacobolus> | Hixie: I think arve (whatever his handle is; I don't remember) is the best one to ask about SSE in opera |
| 02:36 | <Philip`> | jacobolus: and http://www.penisland.net/ etc |
| 02:36 | <jacobolus> | Hixie: did anyone consider “That said, I recommend the addition of .getTransformation to the Canvas specification: it will save a lot of unnecessary code rewriting, most of which is matrix multiplication best done in a low-level language.” from http://azarask.in/blog/post/contextfreejs-algorithm-ink-making-art-with-javascript/ ?? |
| 02:38 | <Hixie> | i'll poke anne or lachlan or zcorpan when they get back |
| 02:38 | <Hixie> | getTransform() has been considered before, yes |
| 02:39 | <jacobolus> | Hixie: anyway, given that their implementation is going to have to change incompatibly anyway, I don't think you should worry too much about changing the name |
| 02:39 | <Hixie> | didn't they change already? |
| 02:39 | <jacobolus> | oh did they? |
| 02:39 | <jacobolus> | I don't know |
| 02:40 | <jacobolus> | I haven't played with Opera's SSE stuff for a few months |
| 02:44 | <jacobolus> | Hixie: the bit of the spec that says “WebSocket objects must also implement the EventTarget interface.” implies that those objects will support AddEventListener w/ "open", "read", "close" as events, right? Or am I misunderstanding? |
| 02:46 | <Hixie> | yes |
| 02:46 | <Hixie> | you are not misunderstanding |
| 02:46 | <jacobolus> | okay, good. because that's what I told some other people :) |
| 02:48 | <jacobolus> | Hixie: mcarter was thinking about whether Orbited’s TCPSocket objects should support the same interface, and wondering what use cases would be for having multiple event listeners for a socket. I couldn’t think of any that were particularly compelling. |
| 02:49 | <Hixie> | i'm not aware of any use cases |
| 02:49 | <Hixie> | i just use the DOM Events mechanism wherever possible as a matter of course |
| 02:50 | <Hixie> | for consistency across the platform |
| 02:51 | <jacobolus> | yeah. that was the only argument I had for using the same interface :) |
| 04:00 | roc | wonders what to do about Alan Gresley |
| 04:38 | <Hixie> | who is Alan and what is there to do about him? |
| 04:48 | <roc> | A guy who posts a lot to www-style, who thinks error tolerance is a conspiracy |
| 04:55 | <Hixie> | ignore him |
| 04:55 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 08:23 | <annevk> | Hixie, since everything else changed we're more or less incompatible with the spec at this point anyway |
| 08:23 | <Hixie> | so it hasn't been updated then? |
| 08:23 | <Hixie> | k |
| 08:23 | <annevk> | Hixie, well, we're still compatible with the infrastructure, but I'm not sure if that's worth it |
| 08:24 | <annevk> | (infrastructure being the attachEventSource() stuff and <event-source>) |
| 08:38 | <annevk> | apart from headers/methods optin Access Control is mostly fixed btw |
| 08:38 | <annevk> | well, my offline version |
| 08:38 | <annevk> | I've notes for headers/methods too and I'm stuck on naming :) |
| 08:39 | annevk | always has bikeshed issues with himself when writing specs |
| 09:27 | <annevk> | (where I said attachEventSource I meant addEventSource...) |
| 09:53 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: for r1848, there are a couple places where it seems like the only change made was to change the order of some citations -- "[RFC2109] [RFC2965]" instead of "[RFC2965] [RFC2109]" |
| 09:53 | <MikeSmith> | wondering what the significance of that change is meant to be |
| 09:53 | <Hixie> | yes |
| 09:53 | <Hixie> | none, just wanted it in numerical order |
| 09:54 | <MikeSmith> | ah |
| 09:58 | <annevk> | the checkin comment made it seems like more was happening |
| 09:58 | <annevk> | I landed an initial version of the AC draft we agreed upon at the Seattle F2F: http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/access-control/ |
| 09:59 | <annevk> | It doesn't have the headers/methods proposal included yet, though there are comments in the source regarding that |
| 10:01 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: cool. that was pretty fast work |
| 10:01 | <MikeSmith> | about that checkin, more did happen - |
| 10:01 | <MikeSmith> | http://people.w3.org/mike/diffs/html5/spec/Overview.1.1037.html#sandboxCookies |
| 10:02 | <MikeSmith> | just that it added "or later specifications" to "RFC 2109 section 4.3.4. or later specifications" |
| 10:02 | <roc> | is there any writeup about what happened at that meeting? |
| 10:02 | <annevk> | true |
| 10:04 | <annevk> | roc, http://www.w3.org/2008/07/01-wam-minutes.html and http://www.w3.org/2008/07/02-wam-minutes.html if you have W3C Member access |
| 10:04 | <roc> | thanks! |
| 10:05 | <annevk> | http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-wam-minutes.html seems to have even more limited rights, MikeSmith? |
| 10:05 | <annevk> | they should become public within a few weeks (hopefully less) |
| 10:07 | <hendry> | is there a good resource for "onload events"? i've looked at a few different libraries and the browser specific hacks aside there seems a number of ways to do it: onload. window.load, DOMContentLoaded, document.readyState. I'm assuming here I should have the DOM ready for an AJAX call. |
| 10:08 | <hendry> | this is for a mobile AJAX test case: http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2008/mobile-test/xmlhttprequest.js |
| 10:08 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: I just changed http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-wam-minutes.html to member-viewable |
| 10:09 | <roc> | schepers was there? huh |
| 10:09 | <MikeSmith> | roc: for me, it was particularly nice to finally meet Jonas Sicking |
| 10:10 | <annevk> | 03 was the day we made descisions on all the drastic changes quite early in the morning |
| 10:10 | <roc> | he's a good man |
| 10:11 | annevk | goes food shopping before falling asleep |
| 10:11 | <MikeSmith> | roc: btw, I went to a FF3 release party here in Tokyo a couple weeks back. They showed a video with clips from a bunch of Mozilla developers talking about their favorite feature in FF3 |
| 10:11 | <MikeSmith> | including you |
| 10:11 | <roc> | haha |
| 10:11 | <MikeSmith> | so that was cool too |
| 10:15 | <MikeSmith> | Julien Chaffraix's started checking in code changes to support XBL2 in Webkit |
| 10:16 | <MikeSmith> | http://trac.webkit.org/search?q=jchaffraix |
| 10:22 | <roc> | how long were these AC meetings? |
| 10:22 | <Hixie> | theoretically 9-5 tuesday-thursday |
| 10:23 | <Hixie> | in practice, 1pm-5pm tuesday, 11pm-5pm wednesday, 11pm-5pm friday |
| 10:23 | <Hixie> | though everything after 3pm on friday seems to be missing from the minutes |
| 10:23 | <Hixie> | (which is unfortunate as i left at 3pm) |
| 10:23 | <othermaciej> | we adjourned around that point |
| 10:37 | <annevk> | it's 11PM and not 11AM? |
| 10:37 | <roc> | I'm sure he meant 11am |
| 10:37 | <Hixie> | i meant am |
| 10:40 | <annevk> | good, I already find it slightly quirky that it's 12PM for midday (iirc), but this would be even more odd |
| 10:41 | <Hixie> | the whole am/pm thing is silly imho |
| 10:41 | <Hixie> | what's wrong with 24h clocks |
| 10:41 | <annevk> | Europe generally uses 24h clocks for notation |
| 10:41 | <annevk> | well, the Netherlands :p |
| 10:42 | <Hixie> | i know, i'm european :-) |
| 10:45 | <Lachy> | Hixie, which country are you from originally? |
| 10:46 | <Philip`> | 11:59:59.999 is clearly AM, 12:00:00.001 is clearly PM, so it makes sense that 12:00:00.000 is PM because it shares most of its digits with nearby PM times |
| 10:46 | <Hixie> | switzerland |
| 10:46 | <Hixie> | hence the .ch |
| 10:46 | <Lachy> | ok |
| 10:49 | <annevk> | Philip`, true, I suppose I expect 0-11 rather than 12-11 |
| 11:42 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: do you know off-hand whether you have a tc in your testsuite that is equivalent to |
| 11:42 | <zcorpan> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cp%3EThere%20should%20be%20only%20one%20line%20below.%3C%2Fp%3E%0D%0A%3Ccanvas%3E%3C%2Fcanvas%3E%0D%0A%3Cscript%3E%0D%0Avar%20canvas%20%3D%20document.getElementsByTagName('canvas')%5B0%5D%3B%0D%0Avar%20g%20%3D%20canvas.getContext('2d')%3B%0D%0Ag.moveTo(0%2C%200)%3B%0D%0Ag.lineTo(100%2C%200)%3B%0D%0Ag.stroke()%3B%0D%0Ag.translate(0%2C%2050)%3B%09%09%0D%0Ag.stroke() |
| 11:42 | <zcorpan> | %3B%0D%0A%3C%2Fscript%3E |
| 11:42 | <zcorpan> | (uploaded) |
| 11:44 | <zcorpan> | http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/2d.path.transformation.changing.html ? |
| 11:56 | <Lachy> | hey Hixie, what was the original reason for including XML form submission in WF2? Was that just because XForms submitted XML, and so we should allow that too? |
| 11:56 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 11:57 | <Lachy> | ok, cause I'm thinking it should be dropped for offering no benefits over traditional submission methods |
| 12:00 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 12:00 | <Hixie> | i agree |
| 12:14 | <Philip`> | zcorpan: http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/2d.path.transformation.multiple.html seems like that, only with fill instead of stroke - does that make a difference? |
| 12:20 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: seems not.. though i guess it would be good to have both covered :) |
| 13:40 | <takkaria> | heh, Alan Gresley seems like a very unproductive person to talk to |
| 13:41 | <takkaria> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Jul/0123.html |
| 13:45 | <Philip`> | "my dream is a one interoperable open web. This may mean that we don't have many implementors but just one. There is nothing to stop all of you working together on *one implementation*." - that's... not going to work |
| 13:46 | <takkaria> | I like the bit about wanting a world poll on whether browsers should accept invalid markup |
| 13:48 | <Philip`> | Asking people what they want is not a good way of finding what people want, so instead he perhaps could make a Firefox extension that makes your browser abort with an error message when there's any invalid markup, and see how popular it becomes |
| 13:50 | <zcorpan> | it might well become popular among people who use firefox for web development and not for browsing |
| 14:15 | <jcranmer> | Hixie: you seen Wall-E yet? |
| 16:36 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: any idea yet ?:P |
| 16:44 | <gsnedders_> | yay! bad wi-fi! |
| 16:45 | <Philip`> | gsnedders_: Not entirely sure - it depends on whether anyone convinces me to feel guilty for leaving them to finish all the work :-) |
| 16:45 | <Philip`> | (Bye) |
| 16:49 | <Philip`> | (I think there isn't much left for me to do so hopefully it should be fine this evening) |
| 16:57 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: With the internet access this bad, just phone me at 6:45 at the latest if you can't make it :P |
| 16:58 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Okay - I think it's reasonable to assume by default I will make it, so I'll just let you know if that's wrong |
| 16:58 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: (where "it" = 7pm outside King's, if I remember correctly) |
| 16:58 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Yeah |
| 16:59 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Then we can argue where to go from ther e:P |
| 16:59 | <gsnedders> | *there |
| 17:00 | Philip` | hopes it won't start raining again |
| 17:00 | <gsnedders> | Oh, I doubt it will be as bad as it was in Ely earlier |
| 17:00 | <Philip`> | (My trousers are still slightly wet from two minutes outside four hours ago) |
| 17:01 | <Philip`> | s/wet/damp/ |
| 17:02 | <gsnedders> | My trousers are dry, my hoodie is not |
| 20:02 | <annevk> | still only 26 answers to the Web Forms thingy... I guess it's still early in the US |
| 20:03 | <hober> | 3 PM in Boston, noon in SF |
| 20:04 | <Hixie> | jcranmer: yes |
| 20:04 | <jcranmer> | ah, good :-) |
| 20:04 | <annevk> | hober, guess that explains why I feel weird too |
| 20:05 | <hober> | No responses from Apple, nor Mozilla |
| 20:05 | annevk | arrived from Seattle in Amsterdam about 12 hours ago |
| 20:06 | <annevk> | othermaciej, hey, maybe fill in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wfreq/ ... |
| 20:08 | <Hixie> | jcranmer: i saw it on opening day |
| 20:08 | <jcranmer> | ah |
| 20:08 | <jcranmer> | I saw it saturdayh |
| 20:09 | <annevk> | is it any good? |
| 20:09 | <jcranmer> | it's wonderful |
| 20:09 | <annevk> | k |
| 20:09 | <Hixie> | best movie of the year |
| 20:09 | <Hixie> | and this time it's not just me saying it :-) |
| 20:09 | <annevk> | you say that every year :p |
| 20:10 | <jcranmer> | one of Pixar's better films |
| 20:10 | <annevk> | oh ok, lol |
| 20:10 | <Hixie> | it got like 97% on rotten tomatoes |
| 20:10 | <annevk> | nice, it would be nice if you could just pay a little online, but it seems torrents is more effective |
| 20:11 | <Hixie> | you want to see this movie in the theatre |
| 20:13 | <annevk> | if it's really good, I suppose I could go to theatre as well |
| 20:13 | <annevk> | arrives here on July 30th :/ |
| 20:13 | <Hixie> | ah |
| 20:13 | <Hixie> | that's sdumb |
| 20:14 | <Hixie> | this thread in public-html is crazy |
| 20:14 | <Hixie> | so many people saying that specs are independent of reality |
| 20:15 | <Hixie> | do they not understand that if the spec is ignored then it's worthless? |
| 20:15 | <jcranmer> | not knowing any context, the only time what a spec says should differ from reality is if there is a later de-facto standard (e.g., news: URIs) |
| 20:19 | <Hixie> | or if the spec is broken in some (probably unforseen) way |
| 20:19 | <Hixie> | as with, e.g., http, uri, iri, html4, dom2, ... |
| 22:07 | <Windstoss> | Is this what is supposed to happen? |
| 22:07 | <Windstoss> | var actives = document.getElementsByClassName('active') |
| 22:07 | <Windstoss> | actives.length, returns say 39 |
| 22:08 | <Windstoss> | actives[0].deactivate(); (removes classNAme active) |
| 22:08 | <Windstoss> | actives.length, returns 38 |
| 22:09 | <Windstoss> | It is different from what the Frameworks are doing if there is no native method? |
| 22:18 | <Hixie> | any opera people around? |
| 22:19 | <Hixie> | annevk, Lachy? |
| 22:20 | <annevk> | AM NOW |
| 22:20 | <annevk> | Windstoss, it's a live list, yes |
| 22:21 | <annevk> | Wall-E is indeed nice |
| 22:22 | <annevk> | Hixie, ^ |
| 22:22 | <Hixie> | annevk: do you know who would be a good contact point at opera for worker thread stuff? |
| 22:23 | <Windstoss> | annevk: That is good to know. Sorry, if my question is a little offtopic… but how to iterate the live list when in one iteration you change the list (e.g. be removing a classname). |
| 22:25 | <annevk> | Hixie, I think bratell⊙oc would be a good start (cc me please) |
| 22:26 | <annevk> | Windstoss, you should probably avoid doing that :) |
| 22:26 | <Windstoss> | annevk: yeah, I think, I learned it the hard way. Almost banged my head! So, copy to an array first is the "right" way? |
| 22:27 | <Windstoss> | annevk: it feels messy? |
| 22:27 | <annevk> | kind of depends on what you want to do I suppose, most stuff in the DOM is live |
| 22:27 | <Hixie> | annevk: thanks |
| 22:29 | <Windstoss> | Thanks… I'm off then. |
| 22:30 | <weinig> | annevk: hey, quick question about the Selectors API |
| 22:30 | <weinig> | annevk: do you know what exception should be thrown if CSS3 Namespaces syntax is used in the selector string, and we don't support the NSResolver? |
| 22:30 | <weinig> | annevk: I assume just the regular old SYNTAX_ERR |
| 22:31 | <annevk> | Lachy is editing that spec now mostly |
| 22:32 | <annevk> | SYNTAX_ERR makes sense |
| 22:33 | <weinig> | annevk: ah |
| 22:33 | <weinig> | Lachy: do you agree? |
| 22:37 | <annevk> | 400GB dics (readonly): http://www.tgdaily.com/html_tmp/content-view-38271-135.html |
| 22:38 | <annevk> | disc, duh |
| 23:23 | <Lachy> | if weinig comes back and I'm not here, someone tell him that in answer to his question about selectors api, it's either a NOT_SUPPORTED_ERR (if an NSResolver is passed), or a NAMESPACE_ERR if it's not. |
| 23:23 | <Lachy> | Exactly as defined in the spec. |
| 23:24 | <Lachy> | or, can someone from apple pass on the message to him? othermaciej, maybe? |