| 00:37 | <annevk> | with all this new gTLD stuff I'm glad most APIs are same-origin bound, rather than something else, though cookies remain problematic |
| 00:41 | <weinig_> | Lachy: ping |
| 00:43 | <annevk> | http://forum.icann.org/lists/idn-cctld-fast-track/msg00020.html seems to be confused about ccTLD vs gTLD... |
| 00:45 | <Lachy> | weinig, hi |
| 00:46 | <Lachy> | weinig, earlier, I said: |
| 00:46 | <Lachy> | [00:26] <Lachy> if weinig comes back and I'm not here, someone tell him that in answer to his question about selectors api, it's either a NOT_SUPPORTED_ERR (if an NSResolver is passed), or a NAMESPACE_ERR if it's not. |
| 00:47 | <Lachy> | [00:26] <Lachy> Exactly as defined in the spec. |
| 00:47 | <weinig> | Lachy: ah |
| 00:47 | <weinig> | Lachy: thanks |
| 00:47 | <Lachy> | weinig, did you get a chance to take a look at the test suite framework I wrote for selectors api? |
| 00:47 | <weinig> | Lachy: I did a while ago |
| 00:48 | <Lachy> | I added a few more tests to it today as well |
| 00:48 | <weinig> | Lachy: I am going to look at more tonight :) |
| 00:48 | <weinig> | Lachy: awesome |
| 00:48 | <Lachy> | http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2006/webapi/selectors-api-testsuite/ |
| 00:48 | <Lachy> | http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/selectors-api-testsuite/ |
| 00:49 | <Lachy> | there's currently tests in test-implementation.js and test-queryselector-return-values.js. The rest are placeholder files, waiting for me to finish writing them |
| 00:50 | <Lachy> | I also need to make the framework automatically load and run each of them. at the moment, it's just hardcoded to load one of them |
| 00:50 | <weinig> | Lachy: ah, I was wondering if the framework just didn't work in Safari |
| 00:50 | <Lachy> | I've been testing it in webkit and opera, so it definitely works |
| 00:50 | weinig | realizes once again he was looking at an old draft |
| 00:51 | <Lachy> | heh |
| 00:51 | <Lachy> | always look at the copy in CVS |
| 00:51 | <weinig> | Lachy: only for the last 5 minutes or so |
| 00:51 | <weinig> | Lachy: earlier today I had the correct one :) |
| 00:52 | <Lachy> | btw, the specific conformance criteria that cover your earlier question is this: "If the implementation does not support resolving namespaces, then when the nsesolver parameter is provided and it is not set to either null or undefined, the implementation must raise a NOT_SUPPORTED_ERR exception." |
| 00:53 | weinig | nods |
| 00:53 | <Lachy> | and this ". When an unresolvable namespace is encountered, the implementation must raise a NAMESPACE_ERR exception" |
| 00:53 | <weinig> | Lachy: I am not clear what that means for selectors like "|div" or "*|div" |
| 00:53 | <weinig> | Lachy: the second part |
| 00:54 | <Lachy> | oh, good question. |
| 00:54 | <Lachy> | send mail, I'll deal with it tomorrow. |
| 00:54 | <Lachy> | what do you think is the most sensible behaviour? |
| 00:55 | <weinig> | Lachy: right now I have it implemented to treat both as if no | was there |
| 00:55 | <weinig> | Lachy: but I am not sure if that is the most sensible behavior |
| 00:55 | weinig | will ponder this |
| 00:57 | <Hixie> | man, wtf is sam smoking |
| 00:58 | <Hixie> | (re http://intertwingly.net/blog/2008/07/02/authoritative-true) |
| 01:01 | <Hixie> | he defends microsoft unilaterally bypassing standards committees, he says i'm "self-appointed" then doesn't even correct himself when i point out i'm not... |
| 01:01 | <Lachy> | *|div should never require the implementation to resolve a namespace, so I suppose it should match even if the implementation doesn't support the NSResolver |
| 01:03 | <Hixie> | ...and at the end I don't even understand what point he's trying to make, and he defers to Julian whose point I also don't understand (and have already responded to showing the problems with it). Good times. |
| 01:05 | <annevk> | I think I did get it. His point is that he wants a way to force the browser to respect the Content-Type using some server trick |
| 01:06 | <annevk> | As you illustrated this is harder to achieve as we're closer to the equilibrium HTML5 defines, but he considers it to be an important feature |
| 01:08 | <Lachy> | in theory, it would be nice to have a way to tell the browser not to second guess what the server tells it, but I can understand the problems it will create when it inevitably fails. |
| 01:14 | <Hixie> | i'd love to be able to do it, but i can't see how to get there from here |
| 01:15 | <Hixie> | wishful thinking doesn't work |
| 01:15 | <Hixie> | and i don't see how that point really had anything to do with what you were responding to in his blog comments |
| 01:15 | <Lachy> | we may be forced to anyway, since IE is doing it. :-( |
| 01:15 | <Hixie> | what IE's doing will just introduce a second set of content-sniffing rules |
| 01:15 | <Hixie> | if we follow it |
| 01:15 | <Hixie> | note that IE isn't anywhere near as big an influence these days |
| 01:16 | <Hixie> | their market share is diminishing |
| 01:16 | <roc> | yeah |
| 01:16 | <roc> | I think we can hold the line |
| 01:16 | <annevk> | I hope other browsers won't follow so the platform stays a little bit simpler |
| 01:17 | <annevk> | there doesn't seem to be too much of a gain |
| 01:17 | <annevk> | (I wonder by the way if they'll always respect it or if in case of <img> / <script> / etc. it will still be ignored...) |
| 01:18 | <Lachy> | I guess we'll find out when beta2 is released, but it wouldn't hurt to ask them |
| 01:18 | <Hixie> | i wouldn't bet on them knowing :-) |
| 01:18 | <Hixie> | but go ahead :-) |
| 01:18 | <Lachy> | I wouldn't be surpised if they didn't even think about that case and just apply the same heuristics in such cases |
| 01:19 | <Hixie> | most people don't think to think about that case as sniffing, even |
| 01:19 | <Hixie> | those cases |
| 01:21 | <Lachy> | yeah, I guess |
| 01:22 | <Hixie> | i mean, nobody complained about <img> doing content sniffing |
| 01:22 | <Hixie> | even once we added the navigation algorithm and they complained about that, they still didn't mention <img> and <script> |
| 01:23 | <Hixie> | you know what tires me the most about sam and julian's whining is that they assume that just because i'm disagreeing with their proposals and ideas, that i disagree with their goals |
| 01:24 | <Hixie> | sam even went as far as to say i should speak to eric lawerence after we all spent three days at microsoft talking with that team |
| 01:24 | <Hixie> | like hello |
| 01:24 | <Hixie> | please at least assume i'm trying to do my job right, even if you don't agree with my conclusions |
| 01:25 | <annevk> | what would be the fun in that? |
| 01:30 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: maybe if you stopped doing everything wrong, people would stop complaining |
| 01:30 | <Hixie> | i wish i knew what i was doing wrong! |
| 01:31 | <Philip`> | Hixie: maybe if you stopped doing everything, people would stop complaining |
| 01:32 | <Philip`> | although I suppose then they'd complain that nobody was doing anything, so that strategy wouldn't work |
| 01:32 | <Hixie> | indeed |
| 01:33 | <Hixie> | good chance i'd lose my cushy job at google, too :-P |
| 01:35 | <Lachy> | putting up with complaints while working in a cushy job is a reasonable trade off. |
| 02:12 | <weinig> | Lachy: in the Selectors test suite, in test-queryselector-return-values.js, var doc = document.getElementsByTagName("iframe")[0] should probably read var doc = document.getElementsByTagName("iframe")[0].contentDocument |
| 02:15 | <annevk> | var doc = frames[0].document |
| 02:19 | <weinig> | that could work too |
| 03:40 | <jacobolus1> | does anyone here know the limits of the iPhone's canvas implementation? |
| 03:41 | <jacobolus> | it doesn't seem to like various things I draw which work perfectly well in safari 2 and safari 3 both |
| 04:32 | <jacobolus> | Hixie, Philip` : heh. I didn't realize that released versions of safari 3, including the browser on the iPhone, do transformations the way Opera does (but now the webkit trunk is back to doing it per the updated spec, and the safari 2/gecko implementations) |
| 04:32 | <jacobolus> | very annoying :/ |
| 04:33 | <jacobolus> | it means I have to rewrite all the graphics code for this little multiplayer browser game :/ |
| 10:16 | <Hixie> | if gsnedders was here i'd ask him if he'd tested to see if browsers supported comments in http headers |
| 10:16 | <Hixie> | like in Content-Type values |
| 10:16 | <Hixie> | same with servers, for that matter |
| 11:40 | <Windstoss> | Can nav elements be nested? Is this the way to go to markup a sub-navigation? |
| 11:44 | <Lachy> | Windstoss, there's nothing preventing them from being nested |
| 11:45 | <Lachy> | But, navigation is typically marked up as nested lists within the nav element. |
| 11:46 | <Lachy> | e.g. <nav><ul><li>Foo</li><li>Bar <ul><li>Sub navigation</li></ul></li></ul></nav> |
| 11:46 | <Windstoss> | Lachy: yeah, that seems to be more reasonable… thanks. |
| 12:44 | <annevk> | http://blog.karppinen.fi/2008/07/apple-just-gave-out-my-apple-i.html :o |
| 12:59 | <Philip`> | Why are so many Google people blogging about Protocol Buffers? |
| 12:59 | <Philip`> | I don't quite see what's new or interesting about them |
| 13:03 | <zcorpan> | annevk: maybe one should try the same trick on other places, sending a password request from a different email for one's own account to see if they give it out |
| 13:05 | <othermaciej> | it looks like XML-RPC, without the XML |
| 13:07 | <Philip`> | i.e. RPC? :-) |
| 13:09 | <Philip`> | Converting hierarchical data structures to a self-describing binary format doesn't seem like a new idea |
| 13:14 | <othermaciej> | nor is a message format metalanguage that can compile to programming language stubs particularly new |
| 13:46 | <annevk> | othermaciej, where is toolbar.visible exposed? |
| 13:54 | <annevk> | ah, it's on Window |
| 13:54 | <annevk> | supposedly |
| 13:55 | <othermaciej> | yeah |
| 13:56 | <othermaciej> | I totally forgot about it |
| 13:56 | <othermaciej> | then I started thinking, "browsers already expose some UI details via the window.open parameter string" |
| 13:56 | <othermaciej> | then I remembered that there are properties on Window for some of those things too |
| 13:56 | <othermaciej> | only problem with the BarInfo objects is lack of change notification, in case you care |
| 13:57 | <annevk> | I suppose that HTML could define something for that |
| 13:58 | <annevk> | if we decide to go down this route |
| 14:29 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: you know whether in http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Ccanvas%3E.%3C%2Fcanvas%3E%0D%0A%3Cscript%3E%0D%0Awith(document.body.firstChild.getContext('2d'))%7B%0D%0AlineWidth%20%3D%2050%3B%0D%0AbeginPath()%3B%0D%0AmoveTo(50%2C%2024)%3B%0D%0AlineTo(50%2C%2025)%3B%0D%0AlineTo(50%2C%2026)%3B%0D%0AclosePath()%3B%0D%0Astroke()%3B%0D%0A%7D%0D%0A%3C%2Fscript%3E there should be one (opera/safari) or two (firefox) lines? |
| 14:30 | <zcorpan> | (based on your 2d.line.union testcase) |
| 14:34 | <Philip`> | zcorpan: I believe it's undefined according to the spec |
| 14:35 | <zcorpan> | should it be? :) |
| 14:38 | <Philip`> | zcorpan: (In that test case I assumed it'd be equivalent to drawing one straight line, then drawing another unioned on top of it (rather than doing any non-zero-winding stuff); so in your example that should give one line) |
| 14:47 | <Philip`> | zcorpan: I suppose it'd be nice if stroke rendering was defined, but I imagine it'd be non-trivial to do so |
| 14:48 | <Philip`> | (and non-trivial to make implementations follow it in all the edge cases) |
| 15:15 | <annevk> | Did anyone test if the HTML5 definition of URLs is implemented by browsers for CSS and HTTP Location as well? |
| 15:15 | <annevk> | (both for parts affected by encoding and parts that are not) |
| 15:16 | <annevk> | I suppose I should look at Hixie's tests |
| 15:18 | <annevk> | doesn't appear to be covered |
| 16:04 | <annevk> | Hmm, so the IRI spec is modified for XML, but not HTML et all... |
| 17:05 | <annevk> | haha: http://intertwingly.net/blog/2008/07/02/authoritative-true#c1215531501 |
| 17:07 | zcorpan | notes that all browsers fail http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/2d.path.stroke.prune.arc.html |
| 17:08 | <annevk> | Firefox and Opera fail in the same way |
| 17:08 | <zcorpan> | not quite |
| 17:09 | <annevk> | true |
| 17:10 | <philipj> | the canvas arc spec is quite impossible to read (and understand) |
| 17:10 | <zcorpan> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Ccanvas%20height%3D300%3E.%3C%2Fcanvas%3E%0A%3Cscript%3E%0Awith(document.body.firstChild.getContext(%272d%27)){%0AfillStyle%20%3D%20%27%23fff%27%3B%0AfillRect(0%2C%200%2C%20300%2C%20300)%3B%0AlineWidth%20%3D%20100%3B%0AlineCap%20%3D%20%27round%27%3B%0AlineJoin%20%3D%20%27round%27%3B%0AbeginPath()%3B%0AmoveTo(50%2C%2075)%3B%0AarcTo(50%2C%2075%2C%20150%2C%2075%2C%20110)%3B%0Astroke()%3B%0Abeg |
| 17:10 | <zcorpan> | inPath()%3B%0AmoveTo(50%2C%20200)%3B%0Aarc(50%2C%20200%2C%20110%2C%200%2C%200%2C%20false)%3B%0Astroke()%3B%0A}%0A%3C%2Fscript%3E |
| 19:00 | jgraham | wonders if Chris Wilson is serious that Microsoft will not change the authorative=True behaviour even if it costs them marketshare |
| 19:01 | <annevk> | other posts seemed to indicate that this was primarily for intranet sites |
| 19:02 | <annevk> | so maybe it will be tied to IE=8 or something |
| 19:09 | <takkaria> | I think that feed sniffing will have to be done regardless |
| 19:09 | <takkaria> | since independent feed readers often don't check content-type at all |
| 19:10 | <takkaria> | I wonder when the IE team will learn that unilateral extensions leave everyone with a bad taste in their mouth, though... |
| 19:10 | <takkaria> | or equally, if they will |
| 19:10 | <Dashiva> | I notice Kris managed to put both @whatwg.org and @lists.whatwg.org in the CC. Fun :) |
| 19:11 | <takkaria> | ah, that explains the dup messages |
| 19:11 | <annevk> | yeah :/ |
| 19:11 | <annevk> | that has happened before |
| 19:12 | <annevk> | ideally the lists.whatwg.org just bounced |
| 19:12 | <annevk> | s/bounced/bounces/ |
| 19:13 | <zcorpan> | what's up with validator.nu? |
| 19:18 | <annevk> | hsivonen, validator.nu is down :/ |
| 19:25 | <Dashiva> | Ideally the mailer would realize "Hey, the list already got this message-id" |
| 20:05 | <annevk> | Dashiva, true |
| 20:06 | <annevk> | Dashiva, though there's no real reason to have two lists e-mail addresses in the first place |
| 20:37 | <Dashiva> | annevk: Also true |
| 20:38 | <annevk> | meh |
| 20:38 | <annevk> | alright, did access control |
| 20:38 | <annevk> | I suppose I should fix XMLHttpRequest next |
| 20:46 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: if you're going to include an option for warning about inferred tags, are you going to include an option to check for indentation style, consistent attribute quoting, consistency between > vs /> etc? |
| 20:47 | <annevk> | hsivonen, the Access Control for Cross-Site Requests specification changed in a way that affects your implementation |
| 20:48 | <annevk> | hsivonen, if don't need custom headers and methods other than GET/POST you can even get away with not having OPTIONS at all |
| 20:48 | <annevk> | hsivonen, I'd file a bug if I had an account or if it accepted id.annevankesteren.nl as account :) |
| 20:50 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: perhaps as a non-schema checker URL with query parameters, lintchecks?quotes=any&voidslash=no |
| 20:51 | <annevk> | identation style seems less of a concern than requiring attribute quotes (regardless of ' vs ") and requiring no inferred tags and something with the void slash |
| 20:52 | <annevk> | attribute quotes and inferrred tags seems the biggest concern |
| 20:53 | <zcorpan> | that's just because people are used to what xhtml validation provides |
| 20:54 | <zcorpan> | doesn't mean that what xhtml validation provides is as good as it can get. ideally you should be able to check against a style guide |
| 20:56 | <annevk> | i didn't disagree with that, as you might have read :) |
| 21:38 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: something like http://simon.html5.org/dump/lint-checks.html |
| 21:40 | <zcorpan> | not sure about indentation style |
| 21:42 | <annevk> | the check boxes don't make much sense |
| 21:43 | <zcorpan> | why not? |
| 21:44 | <annevk> | actually, I guess they do |
| 21:44 | <zcorpan> | checked means it's allowed |
| 21:45 | <zcorpan> | although i guess you'd have to allow at least one of single and double quoted |
| 21:46 | <zcorpan> | unless you want to write alt=Hello world |
| 22:27 | <zcorpan> | perhaps it's harder to check for presence of optional tags and perhaps few people would want to check for that anyway (cost-benefit) |
| 22:28 | <zcorpan> | i mean warn if optional tags are present |
| 23:28 | <Hixie> | ok |
| 23:28 | <Hixie> | video |
| 23:31 | <annevk> | Hixie, any chance you can add tests for XMLHttpRequest and CSS url() to your URL encoding tests |
| 23:31 | <annevk> | Hixie, it would be good to know if the HTML5 definition of string->URI is implemented by browsers everywhere |
| 23:33 | <Hixie> | if you give me hte source of the test i'll add it |
| 23:33 | <annevk> | hmm, can you give me the source of the cgi script? maybe I can do something |
| 23:34 | <Hixie> | oh i just meant that if you provided what you wanted me to host i'd add it |
| 23:34 | <Hixie> | if you want to host it yourself, sure, i can send you the script too |
| 23:34 | <Hixie> | which would you prefer? |
| 23:34 | <annevk> | I want the results, I don't have anything yet to create the results |
| 23:34 | <Hixie> | i just don't want to spend time writing tests :-) |
| 23:34 | <roc> | doublec is now scared |
| 23:34 | <doublec> | very |
| 23:34 | <annevk> | right :) |
| 23:34 | <annevk> | Hixie, having the file would be a first step |
| 23:35 | <annevk> | Hixie, or maybe the entire directory as zip, while you're at it |
| 23:35 | <Hixie> | sure |
| 23:35 | <jgraham> | scared that Hixie doesn't want to spend ime writing testss? Or scared about the video work? Because I find the former scary... |
| 23:36 | jgraham | swears the t key on this keybord is less senstive than the others |
| 23:36 | <Hixie> | annevk: ok, encoding.tar.gz in the parent directory |
| 23:36 | <Hixie> | doublec: any video feedback i should know of? |
| 23:36 | <Hixie> | s/of/about/ |
| 23:36 | <Philip`> | jgraham: And the a and i keys too? |
| 23:37 | <doublec> | Hixie, nothing that hasn't already been discussed on the whatwg list |
| 23:37 | <Hixie> | doublec: k |
| 23:38 | <jgraham> | Philip`: Yeah maybe :) |
| 23:41 | annevk | notices Gears gets an Audio API |
| 23:41 | annevk | wonders when it will tackle video codecs |
| 23:46 | annevk | wonders what "rest of the world" means in the context of Roy Fielding |
| 23:47 | <Hixie> | I don't really identify with Roy's positions on standards-related things |
| 23:47 | <jgraham> | I was just wondering what the "error handling for the name on your birth certificate" comment was supposed to mean |
| 23:48 | <Hixie> | oh i missed that |
| 23:49 | <jgraham> | I mean I assume that there is some procedure that you can follow if the name on your birth certificate is wrong so there is defined error handling |
| 23:49 | <annevk> | I think he means that the protocol should not define the error handling, but the user of the protocol |
| 23:50 | <jgraham> | it happens that in that case there is two way communicaion between the client and the author which makes an interactive scheme possible but that's not a luxury we have |
| 23:50 | <jgraham> | How does "birth certificate" map to "protocol"? A birth certificate is a document |
| 23:51 | <annevk> | e.g. HTML can be implemented in a browser but also by some script. Each class would be allowed to have their own error handling or so... |
| 23:51 | <jgraham> | The protocol is the steps you go through to get one |
| 23:51 | <annevk> | though maybe I'm reading too much into it |
| 23:52 | <jgraham> | annevk: I understand that point but don't see how that corresponds to his analogy |
| 23:52 | <jgraham> | (as an aside there may be an issue worth considering in the context of non-browser applicaions |
| 23:53 | <Hixie> | validator.nu seems to be down |
| 23:53 | <Hixie> | different tools having different error handling is ridiculous |
| 23:54 | <jgraham> | which is that having a HTML-specific mapping between attribute values and URIs means that authors have to remember to use some HTML specific intermediary between their document representation and their IRI resolver |
| 23:54 | <Hixie> | the only variation that makes sense with error handling is aborting altogether on error |
| 23:54 | <jgraham> | s/URIs/IRIs/ |
| 23:55 | <jgraham> | which is hard for script authors. It's much easier if here is one set of rules that everyone has to play by |
| 23:57 | <annevk> | I'm just trying to find out what his position is, but as you note, his example is confusing |
| 23:57 | <hober> | right, and that one set of rules needs to match what you need to work with the billions of documents out there, not what RFCNNNN says... |
| 23:58 | <jgraham> | hober: Indeed |
| 23:58 | <annevk> | I have a feeling URL as defined by HTML5 is what is used by browsers in most APIs they support |