| 01:44 | <Lachy> | Stargate Continuum is awesome. One of the best films I've seen in a while. :-) |
| 01:45 | <Hixie> | hope my dvd arrives soon |
| 01:45 | <Lachy> | I just downloaded it. But I will definitely buy the DVD as soon as it's realeased in Australia |
| 01:46 | <Hixie> | my dvd is in kentucky apparently |
| 01:47 | <Hixie> | i got spoilt in several ways abotu continuum listening to the atlantis season 4 commentaries |
| 01:47 | <Hixie> | i know some of hte characters in it, where it was show, and i've seen some of the sets |
| 01:47 | <Hixie> | where it was shot, even |
| 01:48 | <Lachy> | I knew nothing about it before seeing it. I'd only seen a very short teaser trailer for it on my season 3 DVDs |
| 01:49 | <Lachy> | I've got about 20 minutes of it left to watch |
| 01:49 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 01:49 | <Hixie> | you are online while watching stargate! |
| 01:49 | <Hixie> | terrible |
| 02:04 | <Lachy> | it's over now. Great ending. |
| 02:19 | <takkaria> | weinig: I have a table of what HTML5 specifies here if that's useful |
| 02:19 | <takkaria> | weinig: I mean, for each of the cases attached to that bug |
| 02:21 | <takkaria> | weinig: WebKit seems closer to HTML5 than any of the other browsers already |
| 02:22 | <takkaria> | weinig: no, that's a lie; I thought the "Current" column would be WebKit, turns out it's just Firefox 3 |
| 02:23 | <takkaria> | (since I'm using ff3) |
| 07:35 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: is this thread on your radar: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Jul/0114.html ? |
| 08:10 | hsivonen | doesn't like it that some W3C specs don't come as a single HTML file |
| 10:34 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: anything in particular? |
| 10:36 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: in the wai-xtech thread? the possibility of introducing a title-like attribute like aria-name that wouldn't be shown as a tooltip |
| 10:36 | <Hixie> | i hope they have fun with that |
| 10:37 | <Hixie> | http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-tagmem-minutes.html#item03 is funny -- they cite html5 as being "new information" |
| 10:38 | <Hixie> | nevermind that html5 is just describing the status quo |
| 10:38 | <hsivonen> | in other news, I've learned that the MathML 2.0 allows xlink:href but the DTD allows both xlink:href and xlink:type |
| 10:38 | <hsivonen> | but neither explicitly allows the rest of XLink |
| 10:38 | <Hixie> | xlink:href only has meaning if there is an xlink:type |
| 10:39 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: according to DevMo, XLink 1.1 defaults to xlink:type=simple if absent |
| 10:39 | <Hixie> | devmo is describing mozilla's implementation |
| 10:39 | <Hixie> | not the spec's requirements |
| 10:39 | <hsivonen> | it purports to recount XLink 1.1 reqs |
| 10:39 | hsivonen | goes see the actual spec |
| 10:40 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: http://www.w3.org/TR/xlink11/#markup-reqs point #2 |
| 10:41 | <hsivonen> | (aside: point #4 over there seems weird) |
| 10:41 | <Hixie> | ah, they changed that in 1.1 |
| 10:41 | <hsivonen> | also, it appears that MathML 2.0 does not allow xml:space |
| 10:41 | <Hixie> | oh, 1.1 isn't out yet |
| 10:41 | <Hixie> | that's still a wd |
| 10:41 | <Hixie> | that's why i didn't know about it |
| 10:42 | <hsivonen> | oh. right |
| 10:42 | <hsivonen> | Still, I'll pretend that xlink:type=simple is a talisman that can be omitted |
| 10:43 | <hsivonen> | more stuff to document about how Validator.nu deviates from RECs in order to work like users expect |
| 10:43 | <hsivonen> | and to implement first |
| 10:44 | <Hixie> | if you're going to ignore the xlink spec, i recommend ignoring it completely |
| 10:45 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I've got a bug report that Validator.nu doesn't allow xlink:type on MathML elements |
| 10:45 | <Hixie> | RESOLVED INVALID |
| 10:45 | <hsivonen> | thereby giving unhelpful messages on content that contains legacy bits |
| 10:46 | <Hixie> | or RESOLVED FINDABETTERSPEC |
| 10:46 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I'm going to allow it, but only with the value "simple" |
| 10:46 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: for better or worse, Gecko supports it, so it has some real-world relevance |
| 10:51 | <Hixie> | https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=332773 |
| 10:56 | <hsivonen> | hmm. I don't see XLink working in Firefox 3 |
| 10:58 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: looks like XLink regressed between Firefox 2 and 3. |
| 10:58 | <Hixie> | aww, how unfortunate. |
| 10:58 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: seems unintentional since you bug is NEW |
| 10:59 | <Hixie> | my bug could be a dupe that the people "fixing" xlink didn't know about |
| 11:00 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: how would you propose linkifying bits of a MathML formula? |
| 11:00 | <Hixie> | <a href=""></a> |
| 11:01 | <Hixie> | if you really think xlink is dead in ff3 btw, please do comment on that bug to that effect |
| 11:01 | <Hixie> | i don't seem to have any tests for it |
| 11:01 | <Hixie> | or i would comment myself |
| 11:01 | <hsivonen> | OK. |
| 11:15 | Hixie | sends bad news to the htmlwg (well, bad news for some!) |
| 11:15 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I added a comment to the bug. |
| 11:15 | <Hixie> | thanks |
| 11:20 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: are the "careful studies" available in public? |
| 11:20 | <Hixie> | i'm sure many are, spread over e-mails of many years |
| 11:26 | <Hixie> | i'm amused as to how much of the latest tag minutes talk about html5 |
| 11:26 | <Hixie> | i'm more amused by their characterisation of html5 as new information though |
| 11:26 | <Hixie> | it's like they never looked at the web when forming their original opinions |
| 11:38 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: linky? |
| 11:38 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-tagmem-minutes.html#item03 |
| 11:39 | <Hixie> | and 04 |
| 11:41 | <hsivonen> | someone else is drawing comparisons with religious denominations: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Jul/0141.html |
| 11:43 | <hsivonen> | and to me, 05 seems to be decentralized extensibility of URIs in action |
| 11:52 | hsivonen | doesn't like debugging Show Source |
| 12:00 | <hendry> | can anyone who knows better about DOM mutation events can please look over my test? http://static.webvm.net/loader-test.html |
| 12:19 | <Hixie> | i wonder if p. t. (webmaster) was trying to troll me |
| 12:19 | <Hixie> | and whether my response counts as being trolled or as trolling |
| 12:20 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I think using the passive voice instead of 'we' would offend people less |
| 12:20 | <Hixie> | where would the fun be in that |
| 12:28 | Hixie | pokes hsivonen |
| 12:29 | <Philip`> | When replying to emails in Gmail, why does it prefix the quoted message with a line "2008/7/29 Oliver Hunt <oliver⊙ac>:" and fail to insert any grammar? (Does this affect anyone except me?) |
| 12:31 | <gDashiva> | I get grammar |
| 12:31 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: What language? en-gb or en? |
| 12:32 | <gsnedders> | Why on earth are there bagpipes playing in the heavy mist in the park below my house? |
| 12:33 | <gsnedders> | No, it's on the other side of my house, someone practising in their drive |
| 12:33 | <gsnedders> | (Which is somewhat rational as it is an outdoor instrument, and completely deafening inside) |
| 12:33 | <gDashiva> | (and completely deafening outside as well) |
| 12:34 | <gsnedders> | gDashiva: No, only nearly completely deafening |
| 12:34 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: "English (UK)" |
| 12:34 | <Philip`> | (and using Gmail 2.0 or whatever the newish version is called) |
| 12:34 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: I've seen that have weird things before, thus I just use English :P |
| 12:35 | <hsivonen> | source highlighting is hard. |
| 12:36 | gsnedders | turns his music up loud to drown out the bagpipes |
| 12:36 | <Hixie> | damnit, both hsivonen and myself fell into the trap of replying to sam |
| 12:36 | <gsnedders> | Now, can I be bothered to cook my own lunch? |
| 12:36 | <Hixie> | why do i fall into that trap every time |
| 12:36 | <Hixie> | bah i'm going to bed |
| 12:36 | <Hixie> | nn |
| 12:37 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, is the person playing the bagpipes in or out of tune? |
| 12:37 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: n00b |
| 12:37 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: mostly in tune, but squeaking a bit |
| 12:37 | <Lachy> | bagpipes always sound squeeky, so that's normal :-) |
| 12:37 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: Not when played well :) |
| 12:37 | <gsnedders> | (It's just very hard to) |
| 12:38 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, you're assuming it's possible to play them well. |
| 12:38 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: I have friends who can :) |
| 12:38 | <gsnedders> | My school has a reputable pipe band |
| 12:38 | <hsivonen> | I so wish CRLF didn't exist |
| 12:39 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, what problems is it causing? |
| 12:39 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: it makes tracking source location harder |
| 12:40 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: I blame CRLF for the source location bug zcorpan found when validating forums.whatwg.org |
| 12:40 | <Lachy> | why? If your input stream processor normalises all CR and CRLF to LF, and then reports based on line numbers and character positions within the line, what's the problem? |
| 12:41 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: having a separate input stream processor is inefficient |
| 12:41 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: can't have that |
| 12:42 | <Lachy> | why would you need a separate processor? |
| 12:43 | <Lachy> | if the input goes through one input stream processor, and the output of that is used by everything else as needed, you only need one, and there's no problem |
| 12:43 | <Lachy> | I assume that would be how you have it? |
| 12:43 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: that's not how I have it |
| 12:43 | <Lachy> | ok |
| 12:43 | <hsivonen> | to allow efficient buffering, the additional layer of input stream preprocessing is eliminated |
| 12:44 | <Lachy> | ok |
| 12:44 | <hsivonen> | instead, the "preprocessing" happens in the tokenizer buffer |
| 12:45 | <hsivonen> | the tokenizer turns the CR into an LF in place. then it return to the driver signaling that it saw a CR |
| 12:45 | <hsivonen> | the driver checks if the next character is an LF and if it is, adjust buffer start position before re-entering the tokenizer |
| 12:46 | <hsivonen> | this way, the data isn't copied or moved in the buffer |
| 12:47 | <hsivonen> | also, having a real stream preprocessor could only work a char at a time, because document.write() writes to the unpreprocessed stream |
| 12:48 | <hsivonen> | anyway, CRLF really, really sucks |
| 12:48 | <hsivonen> | one of those things that probably seemed really simple at first |
| 12:50 | <Lachy> | yep. So we need to reinvent ASCII using only LF, and ditching many of the other useless control codes while we're at it. |
| 12:51 | <gDashiva> | ASCV |
| 12:51 | <Lachy> | ? |
| 12:51 | <gDashiva> | 5 > 2 |
| 12:51 | <gsnedders> | ? |
| 12:51 | <hsivonen> | :-) |
| 12:52 | <gsnedders> | (I know where that comes from, but where the relevance to ASCV, and what is ASCV?) |
| 12:52 | <gDashiva> | II = 2, V = 5 |
| 12:52 | <gsnedders> | ah. |
| 12:52 | <gsnedders> | Duh. |
| 12:52 | <Lachy> | heh |
| 12:53 | <gsnedders> | 5 > *, * ∈ ℝ, * ≠ 5. |
| 12:55 | <hsivonen> | the things that annoy me the most as a parser writer are CRLF and xmlns attributes |
| 12:57 | <Philip`> | The things that would annoy me most would be users |
| 12:58 | <gDashiva> | Warning: Your document contains CRLF, which makes the validator sad. |
| 12:58 | <Philip`> | Hmm, it seems we don't have consensus on whether consensus is overrated |
| 12:59 | <gsnedders> | Wow. 5 > 2 is over a year old. |
| 12:59 | <Lachy> | I wish we could make CRLF non-conforming |
| 12:59 | <Lachy> | screw the windows users who don't know how to configure their editors correctly. |
| 13:00 | <gsnedders> | Screw Windows. |
| 13:00 | <gsnedders> | :P |
| 13:00 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: I think mathematicians have know that for somewhat longer than a year |
| 13:00 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Well, http://five-gt-two.spreadshirt.com/us/US/Shop/ is |
| 13:00 | <Lachy> | and especially Notepad for *still* not supporting LF on its own |
| 13:00 | <Lachy> | did anyone buy that shirt? |
| 13:01 | <gsnedders> | I know some people did. I never did. |
| 13:01 | <Philip`> | Lachy: About 10% of some set of pages have \r in attribute values (not even looking at any other characters in the page), so you'd make quite a large fraction of currently-valid pages become invalid |
| 13:01 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: Someone commented that they were the person with the 5 > 2 shirt at some µf meeting |
| 13:02 | <Lachy> | we should make a real WHATWG or HTML5 shirt that actually looks good |
| 13:03 | <Lachy> | a nice polo shirt with the WHATWG's ?⃝ logo on it. |
| 13:03 | <gDashiva> | Didn't someone suggest a WHATWF, Mate? shirt once? |
| 13:03 | <gDashiva> | *TF |
| 13:05 | Hixie | mumbles something about wishing p. t. (webmaster) would stop threatening him and actually ask for him to step down already |
| 13:05 | <Hixie> | all this posturing is getting tiring |
| 13:06 | <Philip`> | Has he not asked that already? |
| 13:06 | <gsnedders> | He certainly has. |
| 13:06 | <Hixie> | has he? |
| 13:07 | Philip` | can't remember |
| 13:07 | <Lachy> | Hixie, would you step down if asked? |
| 13:07 | <Hixie> | i would love to step down as htmlwg editor |
| 13:07 | <Philip`> | Asked by whom? |
| 13:07 | <Lachy> | anyone |
| 13:08 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: well, stepping down because of RB or PT (webmaster) would suck |
| 13:08 | <Lachy> | Hixie, I assume you would remain as the WHATWG's editor though |
| 13:08 | <Hixie> | being able to just go back to the whatwg and not have to deal with the nutjobs in the htmlwg would make my year |
| 13:08 | <Lachy> | LOL |
| 13:08 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: What was this about wanting to avoid the specs diverging? |
| 13:09 | <Hixie> | i always said the whatwg would always be identical to or a superset of the htmlwg's spec |
| 13:09 | <Lachy> | keeping the whatwg spec a superset of the htmlwg spec could work in theory, unless the htmlwg spec does something totally crazy which is ignored by implementers |
| 13:09 | <Hixie> | (and that i'd diverge if the htmlwg made stupid decisions) |
| 13:09 | <gsnedders> | Which will happen. |
| 13:10 | <Hixie> | anyway i really should sleep |
| 13:10 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Sleep is for losers. |
| 13:12 | <Hixie> | i'm responding to what might well be trolls now, so i really am a loser at this point :-) |
| 13:19 | gsnedders | concludes he really can't be bothered to cook lunch, and heads into town |
| 13:42 | hsivonen | likes http://www.cuil.com/search?q=doctype |
| 13:44 | <hsivonen> | http://www.cuil.com/search?q=html5+validator isn't so good |
| 13:44 | <hsivonen> | and the image choices are a bit weird |
| 13:58 | <Lachy> | http://www.mikeonads.com/2008/07/13/using-your-browser-url-history-estimate-gender/ |
| 13:59 | <Lachy> | http://www.cuil.com/search?q=Lachy&sl=long is not so good either, but http://www.cuil.com/search?q=Lachlan%20Hunt&sl=long is |
| 14:00 | <Lachy> | cuil doesn't turn into a verb as well as google does. Saying I just cuiled myself sounds weird. |
| 14:03 | <Philip`> | I don't even know how to pronounce Cuil |
| 14:20 | <Lachy> | Philip`, according the slashdot article I read about it yesterday, it's pronounced "cool" |
| 14:21 | gsnedders | returns from getting lunch in town |
| 14:21 | <Lachy> | http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/07/28/068211&from=rss |
| 14:23 | <Philip`> | Lachy: That sounds like a fairly stupid name |
| 14:23 | <Philip`> | It's not even trying to disguise that it's trying to appear cool, and therefore it fails to be so |
| 14:24 | <Philip`> | (There's nothing less cool than trying hard to be cool) |
| 14:24 | hsivonen | wonders if Cuil is going to be successful in Frech-language locales |
| 14:24 | <hsivonen> | French |
| 14:25 | <gsnedders> | Heh. |
| 14:25 | <gsnedders> | I never realised what Hixie said earlier today: the HTML 5 timetable is longer than how long the web has so long existed. |
| 14:26 | <Philip`> | How long will it be until that statement is no longer true? |
| 14:27 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Depends on when you define the web as beginning |
| 14:27 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: And your speed. |
| 14:27 | <gsnedders> | It was all working in 1990 |
| 14:27 | <Philip`> | I define it as whenever Wikipedia said it began |
| 14:27 | <gsnedders> | So 2009 |
| 14:28 | <Lachy> | I'll try it out for a few weeks and see how it goes. I expect the results to be a little off since it's a new startup, but they could get better |
| 14:29 | <Philip`> | Oops, I was thinking of how long was left until the end of the HTML 5 timetable, versus how long the web has existed |
| 14:29 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: 2003 HTML 5 began |
| 14:29 | <Philip`> | in which case it'd be 2006 |
| 14:30 | <gsnedders> | 2003–2022 is 19 years |
| 14:30 | <Lachy> | since the HTML5 timetable is only a guesstimate, and the beginning of the web is difficult to define, it's an impossible question to answer |
| 14:30 | <Philip`> | s/it'/the point at which they're equal woul/ |
| 14:33 | <Lachy> | hmm, the new MacBooks are rumoured to have glass touchpads. I wonder what the advantage of that will be, if it's true |
| 14:33 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: Ooooo! Shiny! |
| 14:34 | <Lachy> | maybe it's like an iPhone screen |
| 14:35 | <Philip`> | It'll make your greasy fingerprints show up much more clearly |
| 14:36 | Philip` | just wants Apple to make a touchpad driver for Windows that isn't pathetic |
| 14:36 | <Lachy> | I haven't tried the windows touchpad driver. What's wrong with it? |
| 14:36 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: Do you run Windows on a MacBook? |
| 14:37 | <hsivonen> | Without virtualization? |
| 14:37 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: Yes |
| 14:37 | <Lachy> | with Bootcamp? |
| 14:37 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: that seems wrong. |
| 14:37 | <Philip`> | since I mainly use it for playing games |
| 14:37 | <Philip`> | Lachy: Yes |
| 14:37 | <Lachy> | do you dualboot OSX too? |
| 14:37 | <Lachy> | Philip`, the games for Mac OS X are better than windows |
| 14:38 | <Lachy> | compare Solitare XL on OSX with Microsoft Solitaire on Windows, for instance. |
| 14:38 | <Lachy> | :-) |
| 14:39 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: I forgot to mention: I fixed the source location issue with forums.whatwg.org |
| 14:39 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: thanks |
| 14:39 | <Philip`> | Lachy: The main problems are it doesn't do tap-to-click, and the drag-to-scroll thing is stupidly sensitive such that it's actually physically impossible to right click on a file in Explorer, because moving my hand to click the button makes the window scroll wildly up/down |
| 14:40 | <Philip`> | Lachy: It has OS X, but I pretty much never use it |
| 14:40 | <Lachy> | can't you adjust it in the settings? |
| 14:40 | <Philip`> | Lachy: I have Vista Business which doesn't come with any games at all, as far as I can see :-( |
| 14:41 | <Philip`> | but the internet solves that problem |
| 14:41 | <Lachy> | I would install windows under bootcamp to test it out, but I only have an XP upgrade disc available, and it needs a full version |
| 14:41 | <Philip`> | (Hooray for Steam) |
| 14:41 | <Philip`> | Lachy: There are no settings |
| 14:41 | <Lachy> | wtf? Not even in control panel? |
| 14:41 | <Philip`> | (except for the standard Windows ones, like how many lines you want to scroll per increment of the mouse wheel) |
| 14:41 | <Lachy> | oh, how sucky |
| 14:42 | <Lachy> | though Vista sucks in general. Why didn't you get XP? |
| 14:42 | <Philip`> | Mostly since I occasionally want to test software on Vista |
| 14:43 | <Philip`> | Also, it doesn't seem worse than XP; it's just different, and I've never used XP so that difference doesn't affect me :-) |
| 14:44 | <gsnedders> | XP is just 2000 with shiny graphics :) |
| 14:44 | <Lachy> | I used vista briefly on a friend's laptop, and it sucked so much, it was one of the reasons I switched to Mac |
| 14:44 | <Philip`> | but the Boot Camp drivers apparently have the same problems on XP |
| 14:44 | gsnedders | doesn't think Vista is that bad |
| 14:44 | <gsnedders> | But it doesn't have a native unix-like shell, so it sucks. |
| 14:44 | Lachy | notes that gsnedders' opinion is wrong |
| 14:45 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: Sure, that goes without saying, as it is my opinion. |
| 14:45 | Philip` | turned off the Aero stuff, but decided not to switch to the Classic theme since he really ought to get used to the modern world |
| 14:45 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: So what? Aero Basic? |
| 14:46 | hsivonen | thought Mac OS X and Ubuntu were the modern world |
| 14:46 | <Lachy> | maybe I should get a pirated version of vista to try it out briefly on my iMac and/or MBP |
| 14:46 | <Lachy> | or on my old crappy PC |
| 14:46 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: You can use it for up to 240 days without a license key or activation |
| 14:47 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Yes, like http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/59/Windows_Vista_Basic.png |
| 14:47 | <Lachy> | ah, ok. In that case, I may be able to borrow my friend's vista disc to do it |
| 14:47 | <gsnedders> | I think it's 240 days at least |
| 14:47 | <gsnedders> | That's what it is for 2008 Server |
| 14:47 | <gsnedders> | It's at least 60 |
| 14:47 | <Philip`> | except with the Classic start menu since I've got too used to that over the past decade |
| 14:49 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: Only 120 for Vista |
| 14:49 | <Lachy> | I had the Vista Ultimate release candidate, but at the time, I couldn't use it much at the time since I was missing some important drivers for my network card |
| 14:49 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/948472 |
| 14:49 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: Same instructions work o Vista, just s/60/30/g and s/240/120/g |
| 14:50 | <Lachy> | wtf? Why are they giving instructions on how to do that? What's the point if one can just run that command every 59 days |
| 14:50 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: You can only do it three times |
| 14:50 | <Lachy> | oh |
| 14:51 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: But yeah, it is rather stupid. May as well have it that long to start with |
| 14:51 | <Lachy> | well, then you just reinstall |
| 14:51 | <gsnedders> | Exactly |
| 14:51 | <gsnedders> | It's stupid :P |
| 14:51 | <Philip`> | They should give away all their software for free - that'd solve all the problems |
| 14:51 | <Lachy> | XP had a 30 day no-activation period |
| 14:52 | <Lachy> | but activation is annoying. I got myself a corporate edition that doesn't require activation, even though I own a legit copy |
| 14:52 | <Philip`> | Why is it annoying to type in a few dozen characters once when you're installing your computer? |
| 14:53 | <Lachy> | because I had installed XP on a few different machines and upgraded a few times, so I had to call the help centre to activate it over the phone. |
| 14:53 | <Lachy> | since I bought my copy in 2001, I've had several machines since then |
| 14:55 | <Lachy> | and they were all custom built machines, so none of them came with XP preinstalled |
| 15:20 | <zcorpan> | "hundreds of test cases" -- http://www.w3.org/mid/488EE5BE.1030009⊙wo |
| 15:21 | <zcorpan> | seems underrated -- does svg really only have hundreds of test cases? |
| 15:21 | <hsivonen> | well, at least the HTML WG isn't the only WG with questions about evidence and accessibility |
| 15:24 | <Philip`> | The number of test cases seems fairly meaningless, since a test case could test a single aspect of a single feature or it could test hundreds |
| 15:25 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: the former is fare more common i'd think |
| 15:25 | <zcorpan> | s/fare/far/ |
| 15:26 | <takkaria> | hundreds of test cases and thousands of pages of spec sounds like the wrong way round. :) |
| 15:26 | <hsivonen> | heh |
| 15:27 | <zcorpan> | hundreds of specs and thousands of pages of test cases? |
| 15:27 | <Philip`> | If I had to write dozens of lines of XML boilerplate for each test case then I'd try to write as few as possible and put as many feature tests as possible in each one :-) |
| 15:28 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: that's not what you did for the canvas testsuite :) |
| 15:28 | <zcorpan> | (for which i'm glad!) |
| 15:28 | <Philip`> | That's because I had no lines of XML boilerplate |
| 15:29 | <zcorpan> | does it matter if the boilerplate is XML or something else? |
| 15:29 | <Philip`> | No |
| 15:29 | <zcorpan> | i mean you generated the tests from script and they have a boilerplate |
| 15:29 | <Philip`> | So, it's because I had no lines of boilerplate :-) |
| 15:29 | <zcorpan> | really? |
| 15:30 | <Philip`> | Well, there's blank lines between the tests, for aesthetic appeal |
| 15:30 | <zcorpan> | did you write each test from scratch? |
| 15:30 | <Philip`> | The only necessary repeated stuff in the source file is the YAML field names, and those were only parts of lines, not actually lines :-) |
| 15:31 | gsnedders | has stopped himself from getting spam |
| 15:31 | <gsnedders> | <form action="http://gsnedders.com/165/feedback" method="post" id="commentform"> |
| 15:31 | <zcorpan> | my point is that for an svg testsuite you could omit the boilerplate from the source file |
| 15:31 | <gsnedders> | Naïve spammers not using HTML parsers :) |
| 15:34 | <Philip`> | The nearly-minimal test case I can write is |
| 15:34 | <Philip`> | - name: something |
| 15:34 | <Philip`> | code: @assert true |
| 15:34 | <Philip`> | so there's only eleven fixed unavoidable non-whitespace characters |
| 15:35 | jcranmer | notes that many WYSIWYG editors fail to perform "obvious" CSS simplification |
| 15:36 | <takkaria> | gsnedders: hopefully that will change with the advent of HTML5 parsing libraries |
| 15:36 | <gsnedders> | takkaria: Hopefully? :( |
| 15:38 | <Philip`> | zcorpan: For an SVG test suite you could do that, but it looks like http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/SVG/profiles/1.2T/test/svg/udom-node-201-t.svg?rev=1.4&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup is what they actually do, which is more than eleven characters |
| 15:40 | <Philip`> | I tend to use something like mailto:me@wherever because that's possibly more likely to break stupid HTML scrapers |
| 15:41 | <jcranmer> | on some of the pages I have, I've noted that even just sticking it in raw seems to miss most spambots, although I'll admit it's not a widely-distributed page |
| 15:42 | <gsnedders> | My email address is in far worse places than my website :P |
| 15:42 | Philip` | is in favour of writing "desc: ..." rather than <d:OperatorScript xmlns:d="http://www.w3.org/2000/02/svg/testsuite/description/"; xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><p>...</p></d:OperatorScript>; |
| 15:44 | <takkaria> | I used to care about not showing my email in public, but I have decent spam filters not |
| 15:44 | <takkaria> | s/not/now |
| 15:50 | <gsnedders> | takkaria: I just use character references for stuff like email and IM |
| 15:50 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: ouch |
| 15:51 | <gsnedders> | takkaria: Absolutely no hassle for any real users using a browser, hopeless for naïve spammers :P |
| 15:53 | <Philip`> | I just set robots.txt to disallow spammers from reading my pages |
| 15:54 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: naïve spammers don't read robots.txt |
| 15:54 | <jcranmer> | zcorpan: it probably works better than you think it does |
| 15:54 | <hsivonen> | I thought the naïve ones are the ones who honor it |
| 15:54 | <zcorpan> | or maybe it's the other way around: experienced spammers don't read robots.txt :P |
| 15:54 | <jcranmer> | although one thing to try would be to set up a way to get spambots caught in a loop but real bots respecting robots.txt wouldn't |
| 15:56 | <gsnedders> | Are we actually any better than the spammers themselves trying to do things like this? |
| 15:56 | <Philip`> | Maybe naive spammers use web crawlers whose default configuration makes them respect robots.txt |
| 15:56 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Yes. |
| 15:57 | <takkaria> | you see right and wrong, I see a primeval battle for survival |
| 15:57 | <Philip`> | I don't think the primeval world had email |
| 16:05 | <hsivonen> | http://www.rpbourret.com/xml/NamespacesFAQ.htm |
| 16:05 | <hsivonen> | that's a lot of questions |
| 16:06 | <gDashiva> | When your FAQ has an executive summary, or even worse, two... |
| 16:08 | <gDashiva> | Am I the only one who feels it's a bad idea to call it 'URI reference' when it can't be dereferenced? |
| 16:11 | <Philip`> | That site has (almost) a dozen XML namespace myths too |
| 16:11 | <Philip`> | which seems to indicate that it may occasionally be misunderstood |
| 16:11 | <Philip`> | Hmm, "Myth #1: XML namespaces exist" |
| 18:40 | <bradee-oh> | Hixie: around? |
| 20:41 | <Hixie> | bradee-oh: i can be |
| 20:51 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Don't give in to people's demands! |
| 21:29 | <bradee-oh> | Hixie: nm, I found the answer in the archived version of you ;) |
| 21:34 | <Hixie> | k |
| 22:53 | <Hixie> | good lord |
| 22:54 | <Hixie> | i just came across an e-mail in the input-for-whatwg-navigation-and-frames folder that says: |
| 22:54 | <Hixie> | Subject: When moving to a new document, stop scripts, event handlers, etc |
| 22:54 | <Hixie> | From: Past Ian <ian⊙hc> |
| 22:54 | <Hixie> | To: Future Ian <ian⊙hc> |
| 22:55 | <webben> | Hixie: Ha. Surely it's only when you start getting emails /from/ Future Ian that you're going to be really surprised. ;) |
| 22:55 | <Hixie> | :-) |
