| 01:14 | <Philip`> | http://developer.apple.com/internet/webcontent/XMLHttpRequestExample/example.html - in getElementTextNS: hooray for browser sniffing (which probably doesn't even work in IE7) |
| 01:20 | <kingryan> | Hixie: you around? |
| 01:32 | <Hixie> | kingryan: i am |
| 01:33 | <kingryan> | i think i actually figured it out |
| 01:33 | <Hixie> | ok |
| 01:33 | <Hixie> | my respect for sam is starting to seriously suffer |
| 01:33 | <kingryan> | i'm implementing http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=1926&to=1927 and was trying to figure out how to trigger the useage of the unknown-type table |
| 01:33 | <Hixie> | what is this, like the eight millionth time he's asked us to consider the same thing? |
| 01:34 | <kingryan> | but then i realized i was only using the patterns as tests, and any real files would have 'binary bytes' later on in the file |
| 01:34 | <Hixie> | ah indeed |
| 01:54 | <kingryan> | ok, that wasn't hard to implement |
| 01:54 | <Hixie> | cool |
| 01:57 | <kingryan> | it'll be in html5lib soon |
| 01:57 | <kingryan> | and AFAIK this is the first implementation of that section? |
| 01:58 | <Hixie> | gsnedders has some sort of code for this iirc |
| 01:58 | <Hixie> | but i'm not sure |
| 02:17 | <Hixie> | what to do about alt="". |
| 07:47 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: did you have a method for finding SVG images created with a specific program from Wikimedia Commons? |
| 09:08 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: or do you have a method for dumping the URLs of SVG images in wikimedia commons? |
| 09:51 | <Hixie> | i wish more people would send input on the svgwg proposal |
| 09:52 | Hixie | prods othermaciej |
| 09:52 | <othermaciej> | hey there Hixie |
| 09:52 | <othermaciej> | I will look at it |
| 09:52 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 09:52 | zcorpan | doesn't see what's wrong with the "fake code" example other than do while (node) { ... } should be do { ... } while (node) |
| 09:53 | <othermaciej> | it is hard for me to evaluate it as written; not sure if it is conceded that it will probably break somewhat more content than the spec proposal |
| 09:54 | <Hixie> | as i see it the key issue is over whether the requirements are right |
| 09:54 | <zcorpan> | i don't think it's clear to the svgwg that it does, but i could be wrong |
| 09:54 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: I think it's a no-brainer that tokenizing the stream twice and the interface between layers being unbufferable cannot be good (or will effective preclude code reuse if optimized) |
| 09:54 | <Hixie> | their requirements and use cases were certainly very different than the set i distilled the original 600 e-mails' worth of input to when i came up with the proposal commented out |
| 09:55 | <othermaciej> | I can certainly comment on requirements |
| 09:55 | <othermaciej> | I have a hard time understanding what their proposal does, it is detailed yet surprisingly unclear |
| 09:57 | <Hixie> | that seems to be the svgwg house style |
| 09:58 | <Hixie> | (i've said the same about their specs for years) |
| 10:00 | <Hixie> | kind of the opposite of css, which has surprisingly clear specs which, when you start trying to work out the details, end up being oddly vague and contradictory |
| 10:02 | <Hixie> | on another note, what's the opposite of paged? as in, a pdf file can be paged, but a png file is...? |
| 10:02 | <wilhelm> | Continuous. |
| 10:03 | <wilhelm> | http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/media.html#media-groups |
| 10:03 | <Hixie> | i don't think people would understand the concept of a "continuous image" being a png as opposed to a multipage pdf |
| 10:11 | <Hixie> | oops, didn't mark the last checking as affecting validators. oh well. |
| 10:21 | <zcorpan> | does firefox still have the dom inspector? i thought it was gone as of version 3 |
| 10:21 | <Hixie> | isn't it an optional extension? |
| 10:21 | <zcorpan> | it used to be an option in the installation |
| 10:22 | <zcorpan> | dunno if it's still available as an extension |
| 10:28 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: It's an extension now https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/6622 |
| 10:29 | <hendry> | isn't firebug good enough for inspecting the dom? |
| 10:41 | <Hixie> | firebug is much better |
| 10:52 | <hsivonen> | sigh. it appears that replying to the SVG-in-HTML email is going to result in some long emails. |
| 11:07 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: My method was downloading Wikipedia's image database SQL dump, grepping it for strings that looked like "foo.svg" (because MySQL refused to load the dump, so I had to use other tools), downloading some number of them, and then grepping for certain strings to guess what program each was made with |
| 11:07 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: where do I get the MySQL dump? |
| 11:12 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Database_download |
| 11:14 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: thanks. which dump should I get from http://download.wikimedia.org/commonswiki/20080615/ |
| 11:16 | <Lachy> | I don't know |
| 11:18 | Hixie | tries to get Kristof to stop top-posting |
| 11:26 | <Hixie> | so who are the big svg tool developers these days? |
| 11:27 | <hendry> | inkscape |
| 11:28 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: what shepazu said about prefixes and Inkscape and Illustrator is true but highly misleading (I'm writing a reply) |
| 11:28 | <Hixie> | heh, that was the next e-mail i was about to start on, glad you're doing it instead :-) |
| 11:29 | <Hixie> | zcorpan: am i supposed to be expecting something about an rss plugin or something for the forums? |
| 11:36 | rgl | waves |
| 11:36 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: maybe, at least one person has talked about some plugin and asked if we want it |
| 11:37 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: right now there doesn't really seem to be a need but i guess it could be nice to have |
| 11:40 | <Hixie> | zcorpan: what should i do? install it, or tell him that we don't want to add more code to this already quite overworked server? |
| 11:41 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: tell him that we don't need it right now |
| 11:42 | <Hixie> | ok |
| 11:54 | <hsivonen> | A friend from the XML trenches who wishes to remain anonymous shared a bug involving a supposedly no-op redeclaration of a prefix: http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=6475032 |
| 11:57 | <hsivonen> | perhaps we should start a WHATWG wiki page pointing to bugs caused by Namespaces |
| 11:58 | <Hixie> | go for it |
| 12:10 | <hsivonen> | created http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Namespace_confusion |
| 12:16 | <Lachy> | hah, even though PTW claimed Hixie was unfit to be the editor, he's not willing to pursue the issue. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jul/0360.html |
| 12:17 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: The encoding detection? |
| 12:17 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Sorry, the character set, even |
| 12:18 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: I've been shipping character set detection since Jan :P |
| 12:19 | <Hixie> | i think it was content type sniffing, not encoding sniffing |
| 12:19 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Yeah, I meant to say content type. I only just got up :) |
| 12:19 | <gsnedders> | s/character set/content type/g |
| 12:19 | <gsnedders> | That's what I really meant. |
| 12:21 | <Hixie> | ah ok |
| 12:22 | <Hixie> | so... what's gonna break if i say <a> is flow content with a transparent content model? |
| 12:23 | <gsnedders> | A lot, I expect :) |
| 12:23 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: why would you say that? |
| 12:24 | <Hixie> | to satisfy the use cases of the people who want global href="" |
| 12:24 | <Hixie> | some of them, at least |
| 12:24 | <Hixie> | hm, apparently handling of <a><p> would break |
| 12:24 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: btw, to me the ability to send parameters to SVG in <object> without breaking HTTP caches seems like a legitimate feature |
| 12:24 | <Hixie> | it seems like a legitimate, low-priority feature, yes |
| 12:24 | <Hixie> | i have bigger fish to fry |
| 12:25 | <gsnedders> | haha — "while I'm thinking about the subject in the shower." |
| 12:25 | <gsnedders> | Oh Hixie… |
| 12:25 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: like getting the 600 pages of the spec we have already written, implemented |
| 12:26 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I expect you mean s/we/I/ :-) |
| 12:26 | <Hixie> | hey i might be the one doing the typing but this spec would be a whole heck of a lot crapper if it weren't for y'all helping me |
| 12:27 | <Hixie> | just look at the acknowledgements section, and consider that i only ever add people if they say something that causes the spec to change |
| 12:27 | <hsivonen> | true |
| 12:28 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: That's be an easier section to look at if less people helped :) |
| 12:31 | <hsivonen> | does the connection limit apply per host name or per IP address? |
| 12:33 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: I think I used enwiki-latest-imagelinks.sql.gz (though it might have been enwiki-latest-image.sql.gz), from Wikipedia rather than Commons |
| 12:37 | <hsivonen> | hmm. http://download.wikimedia.org/commonswiki/20080615/commonswiki-20080615-image.sql.gz looks interesting |
| 12:37 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: ok |
| 12:43 | hsivonen | goes back to writing an XML serializer and cursing namespaces |
| 13:24 | <takkaria> | Philip`: ping |
| 13:32 | <krijnh> | Hixie: is the <a> thing only problematic for unclosed <p>'s ? |
| 13:36 | <takkaria> | it annoys me that out of 37 tokeniser states, 12 are for handling doctypes. it seems disproportionate, somehow |
| 13:44 | <zcorpan> | we could just require </p> if the parent is "a" |
| 13:44 | <zcorpan> | the optional end tag rules are insanely complicated anyways ;) |
| 13:45 | <Philip`> | takkaria: Pung |
| 13:45 | <krijnh> | zcorpan: yeah, would that be possible? |
| 13:45 | <krijnh> | Still doesn't make a <tr> 'clickable' though |
| 13:46 | <hsivonen> | takkaria: the most complexity in an XML parser goes into handling not only doctypes but DTDs! |
| 13:46 | <zcorpan> | krijnh: sure it would. and yep |
| 13:47 | <zcorpan> | i think we should go ahead and allow blocks in <a> :) |
| 13:47 | <zcorpan> | maybe that'd put some pressure on firefox to fix their parser, too |
| 13:48 | <krijnh> | So how much do we need to pay Hixie for this? :) |
| 13:48 | <krijnh> | Or would that break current pages? |
| 13:48 | <takkaria> | Philip`: I was going to ask you if you could get statistics on what % of tag tokens emitted by the tokeniser have at least one character in the tag name or attribute name(s) lowercased, but I have a feeling it might be a bit of a tall order. :) |
| 13:51 | <Philip`> | takkaria: Do you mean how many characters are uppercase in the source and hence have to be lowercased by the tokeniser? |
| 13:51 | <takkaria> | yeah, that :) |
| 13:52 | <Philip`> | Sounds like it probably shouldn't be too hard to hack something like that into the validator.nu tokeniser |
| 13:53 | <Philip`> | although I guess it wouldn't be trivial since I'm not sure how to feed the statistics back to the outside code |
| 13:53 | <Philip`> | (particularly in a threadsafe way) |
| 13:54 | <Philip`> | so I probably don't quite have time to do something like that now, although if e.g. you modified the code to make it report that data then I could run it fairly easily :-) |
| 13:55 | <takkaria> | I may look into that, or I may try and get some kind of statistics thing hooked up to hubbub |
| 13:56 | takkaria | doesn't know Java, so hacking the v.nu tokeniser would be troublesome |
| 13:56 | <Philip`> | Java is easy - it's just C with objects and without pointers :-) |
| 13:59 | <Philip`> | If you want to collect statistics yourself, it's fairly easy to just download a few thousand pages given some list of URLs, and then pass them all through some processing program, and write a script to summarise the output |
| 14:00 | <takkaria> | yeah, it seems like a reasonable thing to do |
| 14:00 | <Philip`> | (The mean page size I saw was something like 30KB, so it doesn't take long to download lots, assuming you do enough in parallel) |
| 14:01 | <takkaria> | I need to get a corpus of pages anyway for speed tests and test coverage |
| 14:02 | <takkaria> | so that's a good idea, really |
| 14:14 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: do you have a catalog of evil input that breaks naïve XML output? |
| 14:19 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: No - I've only ever needed to know %00 and %ef%bf%bf, since in all cases that's sufficient ;-) |
| 14:19 | <Philip`> | Oh, and sometimes %0c |
| 14:20 | <Philip`> | But that's about all, I think |
| 14:20 | <hsivonen> | ok. thanks |
| 14:37 | <krijnh> | http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/07/23/any-element-linking-demo/#comment-396361 :) |
| 14:41 | <zcorpan> | perhaps HTMLElement should have a links collection so you can do <tr onclick="location = links[0]"> instead of getElementsByTagName/querySelector |
| 14:51 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: you forgot a ? in <xml:namespace prefix=v> |
| 14:51 | <Philip`> | zcorpan: No I didn't :-) |
| 14:52 | <Philip`> | I copied from http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb250524.aspx and it seems to work without a ? |
| 14:55 | <Philip`> | (Well, I did actually forget about the ?, but at least I remembered that I was forgetting something like that, hence mentioning "maybe some other incantations" to cover my failings :-) ) |
| 15:14 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: oh, i thought only <?xml:namespace... worked |
| 15:15 | <gsnedders> | Less than a week till my exam results :\ |
| 15:15 | <Philip`> | zcorpan: It's dangerous to make such assumptions about how IE works :-) |
| 15:17 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: does <body prefix=v> work? |
| 15:18 | <Philip`> | zcorpan: No |
| 15:18 | <Philip`> | (nor does <body xmlns:v>) |
| 15:18 | <zcorpan> | <html prefix=y> doesn't seem to work either |
| 15:20 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: <html gsneddersisawesome>? |
| 15:20 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: (you said not to make such assumptions! :P) |
| 15:21 | <Philip`> | Ah, you can use <?import namespace="v" implementation="#default#VML"> |
| 15:21 | <Philip`> | instead of the CSS behavior thing |
| 15:22 | <zcorpan> | yeah |
| 15:22 | <zcorpan> | and/or some <object> thing in head |
| 15:22 | <zcorpan> | i think |
| 15:22 | <zcorpan> | well at least to enable asv |
| 15:23 | <zcorpan> | <object id=foo classid=...></object><?import namespace=svg implementation=#foo> or so |
| 15:25 | <Philip`> | I guess that's to make it load the plugin that will hook into that namespace behaviour or something |
| 15:26 | <zcorpan> | yeah |
| 15:26 | <zcorpan> | for mathplayer2 you can use some specific doctype instead and/or application/xhtml+xml |
| 15:27 | <zcorpan> | though that works without prefixes |
| 15:28 | <zcorpan> | so i'm not sure what happens there |
| 15:28 | <zcorpan> | perhaps it does the document.createElement('math') thing |
| 15:57 | gsnedders | tries to validate HTML 5 |
| 15:57 | gsnedders | begs hsivonen for forgiveness ;P |
| 15:58 | <gsnedders> | yay! |
| 15:58 | <gsnedders> | It's valid! |
| 15:58 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: Do you check if URIs are valid? |
| 16:05 | <gDashiva> | gsnedders: We could just make Hixie add "This document is valid HTML5" to one of the normative sections, and you wouldn't have to worry ever again ;) |
| 16:05 | <gsnedders> | gDashiva: :) |
| 16:06 | <gsnedders> | gDashiva: But it is always conforming, or only the copy that Hixie publishes (i.e., if I run it through my spec-gen, is it still valid?)? |
| 16:08 | <Philip`> | gDashiva: That seems insufficiently verbose |
| 16:08 | <Philip`> | Maybe "An HTML 5 document is a conforming document if it either follows all the conformance requirements described in this specification, or if it is this specification" |
| 16:10 | <Lachy> | Philip`, how does a validator correctly identify a document as being the spec? |
| 16:11 | <Philip`> | Lachy: It could hardcode the MD5 of the spec |
| 16:12 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: If it goes through my spec-gen, it will have a different MD5, and yet will still be the spec |
| 16:12 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Also, what if Hixie updates the spec? |
| 16:12 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: It could hardcode the MD5 of all versions of the spec |
| 16:12 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Including all possible future versions of the spec (i.e., every possible md5 hash)? |
| 16:12 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: The validator would have to be updated, which is what already has to happen for many spec changes |
| 16:13 | <gDashiva> | Would it be the w3c or whatwg version that was valid? |
| 16:13 | <Lachy> | does the conformance criteria implictly apply to all prior versions of the spec too, even though they are obsolete? |
| 16:19 | <gsnedders> | http://bugs.gsnedders.com/issues/show/15 — anyone agree with that? |
| 16:20 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, it asks me to log in |
| 16:20 | <gDashiva> | No, it should be bu.gsnedders.com |
| 16:20 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: I disagree with that. |
| 16:20 | <gsnedders> | :P |
| 16:20 | <gDashiva> | I also get the login screen |
| 16:20 | <gsnedders> | and now? |
| 16:20 | <gsnedders> | 500 :\ |
| 16:20 | <Philip`> | Internal Error |
| 16:20 | <gDashiva> | It redirected me to login.php for the login screen, so reloading doesn't fix it! |
| 16:20 | <Lachy> | same |
| 16:21 | <gsnedders> | Internal error isn't good. |
| 16:21 | <Philip`> | Better than an external error |
| 16:21 | <gDashiva> | It maybe depends on login credentials or something |
| 16:22 | <gsnedders> | gDashiva: it shouldn't :P |
| 16:22 | <gsnedders> | Basically, should whitespace have meaning within pre for non-visual UAs? |
| 16:22 | <gDashiva> | gsnedders: And it shouldn't 500 either :P |
| 16:24 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Yes, because otherwise you wouldn't be able to teach blind programmers Python |
| 16:24 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: so <pre><dfn> foo bar </dfn></pre> <span>foo bar</span> should be xref'd how? :P |
| 16:25 | <gsnedders> | Should it not be as the span doesn't start with whitespace? |
| 16:25 | <gDashiva> | I would warn/error on non-trimmed dfn contents |
| 16:26 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: That's a totally unrelated question :-p |
| 16:26 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Totally? It's completely related to the meaning of whitespace in pre! :P |
| 16:27 | <gDashiva> | I think gsnedders is saying his script is a non-visual UA |
| 16:27 | <gsnedders> | s/non-visual UA/not a visual UA/g |
| 16:27 | <gsnedders> | how about that? |
| 16:28 | <gsnedders> | well, it is a UA |
| 16:28 | <gsnedders> | and non visual |
| 16:28 | <gsnedders> | and no scripting support :) |
| 16:29 | <gDashiva> | Lies, it supports arbitrary script execution through vulnerabilities |
| 16:29 | <gsnedders> | gDashiva: Does it, though? :P |
| 16:29 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Your UA doesn't know or care about meaning - it's just doing fuzzy string matching, and your second question was about how much fuzziness you want |
| 16:30 | <gsnedders> | the fuzziness should be based on the meaning :) |
| 16:30 | <gDashiva> | I repeat my suggestion |
| 16:30 | <gDashiva> | It avoids having to make a decision by putting the onus on the author |
| 16:33 | <Philip`> | If you cared much about meaning, you'd recognise that <dfn>foo bar</dfn> and <span>foo bars</span> are referring to the same concept, just with some modifications to cope with grammar, and automatically link those together |
| 16:35 | <gDashiva> | Should he also recognize Attorneys General as referring to the singular form? :) |
| 16:35 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Peh. That means using a natural language parser (yuk) |
| 16:35 | <Philip`> | gDashiva: Of course |
| 16:36 | <Philip`> | And it has to be i18nised so it'll cope with all natural languages that people will translate specs into |
| 16:41 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: So you think I should do nothing? :P |
| 16:51 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: I never suggested such a thing |
| 16:51 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: What do you believe my behaviour should be when the instance or the dfn is in a pre? |
| 16:52 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: I'm happy to leave that decision up to you |
| 16:52 | <gsnedders> | ergh. |
| 16:52 | <gsnedders> | people are so helpful :) |
| 16:53 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: There again, did I really expect you to make a decision? |
| 16:53 | <gsnedders> | But only I can answer that. |
| 16:53 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Not all people |
| 16:53 | <Philip`> | as is easily demonstrated |
| 18:24 | <takkaria> | urgh, people should stop emailing whatwg⊙lwo and whatwg⊙wo |
| 19:01 | <gsnedders> | http://flickr.com/photos/gsnedders/2716775325/ — that _so_ isn't distorted |
| 19:09 | <zcorpan> | who wants to join the party? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jul/0034.html |
| 19:12 | <zcorpan> | "FWIW, the XHTML2 Working Group "mints" new FPIs all the time. I am saddened to learn that this is a problem for browser vendors." |
| 19:22 | KevinMarks | is listening to Vicki talk about HTML5 in Safari 4 |
| 19:25 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: Validator.nu check the generic IRI syntax and scheme-specific syntax for certain schemes. Unregistered schemes are allowes. The spec's URL stuff isn't in yet. It'll require extensions to the RELAX NG engine to carry the encoding metadatum around |
| 19:26 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: OK, thanks |
| 19:26 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: http://flickr.com/photos/gsnedders/2716769953/ - s/Cathrine's/Catharine's/ |
| 19:26 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/html5-datatypes/#iri |
| 19:26 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: fixed |
| 19:26 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: http://flickr.com/photos/gsnedders/2716765339/ - s/Queen's/Queens'/ |
| 19:27 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: I was guessing that was after some queen who founded it |
| 19:27 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: http://www.quns.cam.ac.uk/queens/Misc/apostrophe.html |
| 19:27 | <gsnedders> | heh. |
| 19:27 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: thanks for poiting out that IE isn't drinking the XML kool-aid |
| 19:28 | <gsnedders> | "The spelling changed from Queen's to Queens' in the calendar of 1831." — 200 years ago I'd have been right! |
| 19:28 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: IE is when you use <xml>, though |
| 19:28 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: 200 years ago, Flickr didn't exist, so the point would be irrelevant |
| 19:28 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: shhh |
| 19:28 | <gsnedders> | :P |
| 19:31 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: your bug tracker shows me an internal error |
| 19:36 | <KevinMarks> | 2 queens, like 2 kings |
| 19:37 | <KevinMarks> | did you go to Sidney? |
| 19:37 | <Philip`> | What two kings? |
| 19:38 | <KevinMarks> | Henry VI and VII |
| 19:40 | <Philip`> | But King's College is only named after Henry VI |
| 19:43 | <KevinMarks> | oh, right |
| 19:45 | <Philip`> | It's best to never expect any kind of consistency :-) |
| 19:56 | <gsnedders> | Esp. in Cambridge :) |
| 19:56 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: Yeah, I know :( |
| 19:56 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: The alternative is a login screen. |
| 19:57 | <gsnedders> | Something is broken. |
| 21:14 | <hsivonen> | http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/MediaSpecifcElements |
| 21:15 | <Hixie> | what about it? |
| 21:15 | <hsivonen> | looks like a draft about adding stuff to HTML5 |
| 21:16 | <Hixie> | i hope they have fun with that |
| 22:34 | <gsnedders> | MikeSmith: You around? |
| 22:36 | <gsnedders> | MikeSmith: If not, can you just tell me sometime whether http://stuff.gsnedders.com/spec-gen/html5.html has sane enough indenting of the TOC for your liking (seeming you're the only person apart from me who cares if it is, or at least who has voiced an opinion)? |
| 22:39 | <takkaria> | that looks sane to me |
| 22:39 | <gsnedders> | (I know the end tags are a bit wacky, but being nice with them would result in even crazier code than that needs) |
| 22:52 | <gsnedders> | Yay! |
| 22:52 | <gsnedders> | Only one thing blocking release of 1.0b1 now |
| 22:52 | <gsnedders> | (docs) |
| 23:02 | <tusho> | Is rel="author" meaningful? |
| 23:05 | <webben> | tusho: in the sense of it being obvious what's intended? it is to me. |
| 23:05 | <tusho> | :P |
| 23:05 | <tusho> | Just wondering if anything did anything with it. |
| 23:06 | <webben> | like what? |
| 23:07 | <webben> | well, actually I guess one could use it when generating a citation |
| 23:10 | <Hixie> | so i've allowed <a> to contain blocks |
| 23:10 | <Hixie> | now i have to work out what this does to our definition of paragraph |
| 23:10 | <Hixie> | because at the moment it doesn't match css's behaviour |
| 23:10 | <tusho> | Hixie: "oh and by the way, i've just detonated a nuclear device" |
| 23:10 | <tusho> | "on another note..." |
| 23:11 | <gsnedders> | tusho: In Norway? |
| 23:11 | <tusho> | gsnedders: :-) |
| 23:11 | <gsnedders> | tusho: (I assume that comment is related to #html-wg) |
| 23:12 | <tusho> | gsnedders: I was just commenting on "so i've allowed <a> to contain blocks" |
| 23:12 | <tusho> | and its offhand form of delivery |
| 23:13 | <Hixie> | i guess i'll just make <a> elements transparent to the definition, like <ins> and <del> |
| 23:14 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: I guess it hasn't much affect, as <a><p>foo</a> is already linked nowadays |
| 23:14 | <Hixie> | doesn't affect implementations |
| 23:14 | <Hixie> | affects henri and authos |
| 23:15 | <Hixie> | though i screwed up the notification when i commited it |
| 23:31 | <Hixie> | http://www.w3.org/mid/4890704F.7040501⊙cau is the most concise description of what IE does i've ever seen |
| 23:31 | <Hixie> | and hoo boy does it blow most preconceptions out of the water |
| 23:33 | <Philip`> | It's only concise because it ignores almost all of the details :-p |
| 23:43 | <Philip`> | Hmm, apparently IE treats unknown tags as empty because if it parsed them as containers then IE3 ran out of stack space on some common bogus content |
| 23:43 | <gavin_> | heh |
| 23:51 | <Lachy> | Philip`, the <xml:namespace prefix=v> thing needs to be a processing instruction, using the SGML syntax, not the XML syntax (i.e. no trailing '?') |
| 23:51 | <Lachy> | so it's <?xml:namespace ...> |
| 23:52 | <Philip`> | Lachy: It works as both <xml:namespace> and <?xml:namespace> |
| 23:52 | <Lachy> | oh |
| 23:52 | <Lachy> | ok |
| 23:52 | <Lachy> | I analysed IE's handling of XML crap before http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-forms/2006Sep/0057.html |
| 23:58 | <Lachy> | IE actually handles both <?xml:namespace /> and <xml:namespace /> in exactly the same way, by adding the <?xml:... /> one to the DOM, which is visible by looking at the .innerHTML of the document |