| 00:03 | <Philip`> | Does it actually add it to the DOM, or does the innerHTML getter synthesise it for output? |
| 00:04 | <Philip`> | (e.g. adding it just before it emits a tag that uses that namespace) |
| 00:46 | <Lachy> | Philip`, I don't know how it works in detail. But I don't believe it's possible to see it via any other DOM methods. But that's probably because IE doesn't support the ProcessingInstruction node interface |
| 02:15 | <jcranmer> | falling asleep on a bus takes about ten minutes for me |
| 02:15 | <jcranmer> | er, wrong channel |
| 02:16 | <takkaria> | good to know, though. :) |
| 02:17 | <jcranmer> | (related to the rock slide on the main Whistler-Vancouver highway) |
| 02:19 | <jcranmer> | I now get to get on a bus at midnight, catch a flight at noon, and getting to my home airport at 10 PM (assuming no problems), to get home closish to 11 |
| 04:14 | <Hixie> | we crossed the 2000 pending e-mail barrier! only 1933 e-mails left! |
| 04:45 | <Hixie> | i ordered something form amazon which shipped and went to the USPS' HEBRON KY facility |
| 04:45 | <Hixie> | and then stopped |
| 04:45 | <Hixie> | it's been there for days now |
| 05:05 | Hixie | chuckles at daniel's e-mail |
| 05:05 | <Hixie> | i'm glad i'm not the only one who had that reaction :-) |
| 10:08 | <zcorpan> | LOL |
| 10:09 | <zcorpan> | http://www.w3.org/mid/Pine.LNX.4.62.0807310535280.3295⊙hdc |
| 10:09 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: do i always do that? :P |
| 10:11 | <Hixie> | wow, someone actually read to the end :-D |
| 10:12 | <zcorpan> | heh |
| 10:49 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: do you have online or in subversion the source for the W3C version of the header for the HTML5 spec? |
| 10:49 | <MikeSmith> | I want to try to just give you a patch with the proposed additions |
| 10:49 | <MikeSmith> | if that'll work for you |
| 10:50 | <MikeSmith> | otherwise, I can just from the Overview.html that checked into dev.w3.org CVS |
| 10:51 | <Hixie> | i'd rather just get the list of changes you want, but if you really want to do a patch, the source file is http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/header-w3c |
| 10:51 | <MikeSmith> | OK |
| 10:51 | <MikeSmith> | I can just send you the list too |
| 10:52 | <Hixie> | bed time now, anyway :-) |
| 10:52 | <Hixie> | nn |
| 10:52 | <MikeSmith> | night |
| 10:53 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: you around? I wanted to ask if the sources for the schemas you use for validator.nu are static sources you maintain manually or if you have build that uses Petr Nalevka's schemas in some way. |
| 10:54 | <MikeSmith> | The reason I ask is that I remember when I reported the error with the <ins> content model, you made a change in http://svn.versiondude.net/whattf/validator/trunk/schema/xhtml10/edit.rnc |
| 10:56 | <MikeSmith> | hmm.. or does validator.nu actually use the http://svn.versiondude.net/whattf/syntax/trunk/relaxng schemas at all? |
| 10:59 | <MikeSmith> | oops, I asked because I saw "svn log" was telling me no changes had been made to the revision.rnc file since January |
| 10:59 | <MikeSmith> | but I see the content model was already correct in there |
| 11:00 | <MikeSmith> | but then, I guess if validator.nu had actually been using that instead of Petr's schema, I would not have observed the error I got |
| 11:17 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: the preset schemas are maintained by me manually. |
| 11:17 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: I see |
| 11:17 | <hsivonen> | and yes, http://svn.versiondude.net/whattf/syntax/trunk/relaxng are used for HTML5 |
| 11:21 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: I'm confused about why I ran into that error in spite of the http://svn.versiondude.net/whattf/syntax/trunk/relaxng having had the correct content model at that time |
| 11:21 | <MikeSmith> | as far as I can see |
| 11:22 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: was the error in HTML5 or XHTML 1.0? |
| 11:22 | <hsivonen> | (afk) |
| 11:22 | <MikeSmith> | ah, I guess was checking XHTML 1.0 source |
| 11:22 | <MikeSmith> | that had to be what it was |
| 13:50 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: what headers do I need to show to wikimedia servers in order to be able to download stuff? |
| 13:52 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: I think I might have just had to remove wget's User-Agent header |
| 13:55 | <hsivonen> | hmm. I wonder how to compute the /0/0b/ bit: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/2001-5_Gubernatorial_election_map.svg |
| 13:55 | <Philip`> | First two hex digits of the MD5 of the filename, if I remember correctly |
| 13:56 | <hsivonen> | as UTF-8 I presume? |
| 13:56 | <Philip`> | I didn't worry about that :-) |
| 13:57 | <Philip`> | $ echo -n '2001-5_Gubernatorial_election_map.svg' | md5sum |
| 13:57 | <Philip`> | 0b4c683b9c7a33f7178e7276e49c261e - |
| 13:57 | <Philip`> | (That seems about right) |
| 13:57 | <hsivonen> | and is /0/ always /0/? |
| 13:57 | <Philip`> | That's the first hex digit of the MD5 |
| 13:58 | <Philip`> | and the /0b/ is the first two |
| 13:58 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: thanks |
| 13:58 | <hsivonen> | it appears that concocting a non-wget UA string doesn't work, but using a browser-looking string works... |
| 13:59 | <Philip`> | What about no UA string at all? |
| 13:59 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: 403 |
| 13:59 | <Philip`> | Oh, okay |
| 14:00 | <Philip`> | (I think my download script was just a line of bash and it's not in my command history and it's not saved anywhere else) |
| 14:27 | <hendry> | how do you specify required/mandatory in the w3c webidl? a comment? |
| 14:31 | <Lachy> | hendry, in what context? |
| 14:32 | <hendry> | Lachy: for e.g. http://dev.w3.org/geo/api/spec-source.html#position latitude, longitude are mandatory, whilst heading isn't |
| 14:34 | <Lachy> | I think you have to specify that in the prose, where you define how to create the object, by specifying what each value must be set to in different circumstances |
| 14:36 | <hendry> | Lachy: do you have an example? |
| 14:38 | <zcorpan> | hendry: why not just allow it to always be null? |
| 14:38 | <Lachy> | well, it currently says "... If the implementation cannot provide heading information, the value of this attribute must be null." That seems fine to me |
| 14:39 | <Lachy> | but it doesn't define what to do if either the latitude or longditude isn't available. |
| 14:40 | <hendry> | just for extra clarity i thought it could be in the IDL |
| 14:40 | <hendry> | as well as the "prose" / text below |
| 14:45 | <Lachy> | hendry, in the section just above that for the PositionOptions interface, it says "The errorCallback and enableHiqhAccuracy attributes are optional." It's not clear to me what that means, nor where the errorCallback attribute is defined |
| 14:46 | <Lachy> | unless you're referring to the errorCallback parameter used in other methods defined earlier in the spec |
| 14:47 | <Lachy> | hmm, I guess I should review that spec in more detail one day |
| 14:47 | <hendry> | Lachy: sooner the better. Web 3.0 is waiting my man |
| 14:48 | <Lachy> | are you the editor of the spec? |
| 14:48 | <hendry> | Lachy: no |
| 14:48 | <Lachy> | oh, I thought by the way you were asking, you were wondering how you could improve the spec. |
| 14:50 | <hendry> | yes, of course i want to improve it :) i want it done yesterday |
| 14:53 | gsnedders | wonders whether to be a pedantic asshole |
| 14:53 | <gsnedders> | "the text of header elements" — what's "the text"? |
| 14:53 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, you are always like that |
| 14:53 | <Lachy> | ;-) |
| 14:54 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: No, almost always :) |
| 14:54 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, it may refer to the text content |
| 14:54 | <Lachy> | but it's difficult to know without a bit more context |
| 14:54 | <hsivonen> | wow. generating namespace prefixes without bugs is more complex than I had thought |
| 14:55 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: Look at 4.3.7 The header element |
| 14:58 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, I assume it's referring to the text that would be used for the purpose of creating a document outline. But if it's not used in the outline algorithm, then I don't know what it's for |
| 14:58 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, why are you trying to generate namespace prefixes? |
| 14:58 | <gsnedders> | I suppose for giving the header of the outline |
| 14:58 | <gsnedders> | But for the sake of numbering, do I number that header? |
| 14:59 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: because using a serializer written by someone else and left unmaintained sucks too |
| 14:59 | <Lachy> | what do you mean by the header of the outline? |
| 15:00 | <gsnedders> | s/outline/section/ |
| 15:00 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, why is the content you're serialising using namespaces? |
| 15:01 | hendry | wonders if there is a JS graphing library that could render something like this in canvas or SVG http://port70.net/~nsz/dwm-sloc.png |
| 15:01 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: If I write an XML serializer, I write one that works in the general case |
| 15:01 | <Lachy> | oh, ok |
| 15:02 | <hsivonen> | anyway, it probably surprises no one, but getting namespaces right is by far the hardest part of writing a SAX to XML serializer |
| 15:03 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: if I didn't make it general purpose, and later I'd use it in an unexpected way, Philip` could provoke Validator.nu to emit ill-formed output and I could be ridiculed as a bozo |
| 15:03 | <Lachy> | LOL |
| 15:07 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: the link on http://www.whatwg.org/mailing-list should be #commits not #commit |
| 15:08 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: but everyone is a bozo anyway |
| 15:10 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: also, I want a serializer that doesn't leak the prefix choices from an XSLT program into the output |
| 15:12 | <gsnedders> | I wonder how complex it would be to take a CharMapML file and a binary string, and convert it to Unicode |
| 15:13 | <takkaria> | oh, WF2 integration in HTML5. that'd be nice |
| 15:24 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, then in such cases, where do you obtain the appropriate prefixes from, or do you just generate them randomly? |
| 15:25 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, what? |
| 16:49 | <Philip`> | hendry: Why JS? It seems easier to e.g. use Gnuplot's SVG output, if you just want a static graph in a scalable web-friendly format |
| 16:50 | <hober> | hendry: google's chart api could probably handle that |
| 17:54 | <takkaria> | Philip`: I'm amazed at how long a sort -R of dmoz urls is taking |
| 17:55 | <Philip`> | takkaria: How much RAM do you have? |
| 17:55 | <takkaria> | just the 2GB |
| 17:55 | <Philip`> | I think 'sort' uses temporary files as scratch space when it's processing a lot of data |
| 17:56 | <Philip`> | The first time I did this, I used Perl to slurp the entire file into an array in memory and then randomise it and print it out again |
| 17:56 | <Philip`> | which used rather a lot of RAM, but did actually work and didn't take forever (but wasn't particularly fast either) |
| 17:56 | takkaria | appears to only be using ~40% of RAM at the moment |
| 17:57 | <Philip`> | where "rather a lot" was a bit more than 2GB, if I remember correctly |
| 17:57 | <Philip`> | (on a machine with 4GB RAM, so that was alright) |
| 17:57 | <takkaria> | ouch |
| 17:57 | <takkaria> | I don't have any machines with RAM >2GB |
| 17:58 | <takkaria> | times like these it would be nice to have a shell account on a supercomputer |
| 17:58 | <Philip`> | You could trim the file down substantially, e.g. skip a random 99% of the lines, and then randomise the output from that |
| 17:59 | <Philip`> | (By the way, be careful to remove duplicate URLs, and be careful to unescape the RDF XML (which I forgot to do since I just parsed it with regexps :-( )) |
| 18:01 | <takkaria> | yeah, I did the replacements and uniq stuff |
| 18:01 | <takkaria> | I found a very efficient method of extracting the URLs was simply perl -i -pe 's/"/"/g' uniq-urllist |
| 18:01 | <takkaria> | grep "&" uniq-urllist | grep -v "amp" |
| 18:01 | <takkaria> | perl -i -pe 's/&/&/g' uniq-urllist |
| 18:01 | <takkaria> | er, that was the wrong thing to paste |
| 18:01 | <takkaria> | 'grep "http://" content.rdf.u8 | cut -d\" -f2 >urllist' is what I meant |
| 18:02 | <takkaria> | then "grep ^http" again, to filter out the odd description/name which had an URL in it |
| 18:03 | <Philip`> | Just out of interest, do you find 'grep' to be massively slower than 'LANG=C grep'? |
| 18:04 | <Philip`> | That was a pain to me when dealing with large files, until I realised setting LANG made it much faster, probably because my default locale was doing UTF-8 decoding of every line or something |
| 18:05 | <takkaria> | LANG=c is faster, but only by about 1% or so |
| 18:05 | <takkaria> | my normal LANG is en_GB.UTF-8 |
| 18:07 | <Philip`> | Hmm, I'm using en_GB.UTF-8 by default too, but it goes ~30x faster with LANG=c |
| 18:07 | <Philip`> | on at least the two computers (one Gentoo, one Fedora) I've tested it on |
| 18:07 | <takkaria> | I'm an Ubuntuite |
| 19:47 | <nzkoz> | hey guys, does anyone know the best way to get in contact with the validator.nu maintainer? I've been noticing strange results lately, just wondering if I should be reporting them somewhere |
| 19:47 | <takkaria> | nzkoz: the maintainer is hsivonen, he's here quite a lot |
| 19:48 | <nzkoz> | takkaria: thanks, I'll keep an eye out over the next few days, any idea what timezone he's in? |
| 19:48 | <takkaria> | european time |
| 19:49 | <takkaria> | possibly GMT+2 or GMT+3, I'm not sure |
| 19:49 | <nzkoz> | cool, same as me, so hopefully we overlap a bunch :) |
| 20:23 | <gsnedders> | nzkoz: UTC+3 |
| 20:24 | <nzkoz> | cheers |
| 20:37 | <takkaria> | Philip`: I now have a system that does roughly what yours does, except without Java ;) |
| 20:39 | <takkaria> | I don't cache headers, mind, but I do use wget -m which should be roughly the same |
| 20:40 | <Philip`> | takkaria: Does it do it with parallelism too? :-) |
| 20:40 | <takkaria> | yup |
| 20:41 | <Philip`> | Does it get confused by infinitely long web pages? :-) |
| 20:41 | <takkaria> | nope |
| 20:43 | <takkaria> | I get the master page list, split it into files of 100 urls each, then write a make rule that takes each list, and runs wget with a quota |
| 20:43 | <takkaria> | so make -j 4 does all the work for me wrt parallelism |
| 20:48 | <Philip`> | Sounds quite nice, then :-) |
| 20:48 | <takkaria> | I'm reasonably happy with it |
| 20:48 | <Philip`> | Hmm, only 4? |
| 20:48 | <takkaria> | I'm on a 100kB/s downstream connection :\ |
| 20:49 | <takkaria> | I'm just writing all the steps I did to get it up and running into a makefile so that you can run "make fetch", it'll grab the rdf list, grep, sed, uniq, sort, randomise, and fetch |
| 20:49 | <Philip`> | Ah, right |
| 20:50 | Philip` | likes university internet connections :-) |
| 20:50 | <takkaria> | I'm tempted to pop within wifi range of mine tomorrow and get the 2MB/s connection |
| 20:51 | <Philip`> | I think the best I've seen is something like 50Mbit/s |
| 20:53 | <takkaria> | speeds like that make me a little bit sad |
| 20:53 | <takkaria> | that said, I should have a4MB |
| 20:53 | <takkaria> | ... a 4MB/s connection fairly soon |
| 21:25 | <gsnedders> | Why on earth is Time Machine claiming not enough space? |
| 21:27 | <gsnedders> | ah! the sparebundle is too small |
| 21:27 | <Hixie> | timemachine sparsebundles auto-grow, no? |
| 21:27 | <gsnedders> | Um, yeah. Can't you create a sparseBundle big enough, kthxbai. |
| 21:28 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: They have a predefined max. size, IIRC |
| 21:28 | <Hixie> | for me, time machine just grows it whenever needed |
| 21:28 | <Hixie> | having said that i have a whole bunch of other problems doing timemachine over the network |
| 21:29 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: If you open the sparseBundle, you can find it's capacity |
| 21:29 | <Hixie> | and there's a maximum it won't go over? |
| 21:29 | <Hixie> | maybe that _is_ the problem i've been seeing then |
| 21:29 | <gsnedders> | Yeah |
| 21:32 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: hdiutil resize -size max -growonly [path to sparseBundle] |
| 21:32 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Just don't have it mounted ;) |
| 21:32 | <Hixie> | disk utility lets you change all that much easier :-) |
| 21:32 | <gsnedders> | Does it allow you do that with disk images? |
| 21:32 | <gsnedders> | Oh. |
| 21:33 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 21:33 | gsnedders | shrugs |
| 21:33 | <gsnedders> | CLI is simple enough :) |
| 21:33 | Hixie | has disk utility on his dock, at home |
| 21:33 | <Hixie> | my mac mini is so slow, poor mini |
| 21:35 | gsnedders | has Terminal in his dock |
| 21:35 | <gsnedders> | That does everything :) |
| 21:47 | gsnedders | ought to pack before leaving tomorrow |
| 21:47 | <Hixie> | Terminal is the first thing I put in my Dock, always :-) |
| 21:47 | <Hixie> | usually, the only apps i have running are Terminal and 1 to 4 browsers |
| 21:53 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Don't forget Finder! |
| 21:53 | <gsnedders> | :P |
| 21:54 | <Hixie> | i'd turn that off if i could! |
| 21:57 | <gsnedders> | Finder, Mail.app, Safari, Colloquy, SubEthaEdit, iTunes, and Terminal |
| 22:11 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Re: <header>, if I'm numbering the section headers, where should the number go? The first highest ranking hx? |
| 22:11 | <Hixie> | yes |
| 22:11 | <Hixie> | though i would just treat <header> as implying no-toc no-num |
| 22:11 | <Hixie> | in a spec |
| 22:12 | <gsnedders> | meh. I don't really want behaviour like that anyway |
| 22:12 | <gsnedders> | by default I only do stuff from depth 2–6 |
| 22:13 | <gsnedders> | I'll fix that for RC1 |
| 22:14 | <gsnedders> | (I currently don't do anything special for header, more or less) |
| 22:14 | <gsnedders> | (in terms of it's text) |
| 22:14 | <gsnedders> | s/'// |
| 22:15 | <Hixie> | not doing anything special is fine too |
| 22:15 | <gsnedders> | well, I basically just treat it as if it were an hx element |
| 22:15 | <Hixie> | it's not like we use it; nor will we use it for anything but the actual <h1> header |
| 22:15 | <Hixie> | i expect |
| 22:16 | <gsnedders> | Which will lead to problems, I expect |
| 22:16 | <gsnedders> | But we don't use it yet, so who cares atm? |
| 22:17 | <Hixie> | indeed |
| 22:20 | <gsnedders> | And I want to get b1 out before I go on holiday, and probably offline for two weeks |
| 22:20 | <Hixie> | no rush |
| 22:20 | <Hixie> | probably don't want to switch to spec gen just before publication anyway |
| 22:20 | <Hixie> | which will be in a couple of weeks or so |
| 22:20 | <Hixie> | so that's fine |
| 22:21 | <Hixie> | ? |
| 22:22 | <gsnedders> | It's a whole lotta notihng |
| 22:22 | <gsnedders> | *nothing |
| 22:24 | gsnedders | adds a new test, just 'cos it fails |
| 22:24 | <Philip`> | Uh |
| 22:24 | <Philip`> | My internet connection is pretty broken, so I was just randomly hitting keys into my dead SSH session, and it looks like they actually got transmitted |
| 22:26 | <Hixie> | hah |
| 22:30 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: svn.whatwg.org is down :\ |
| 22:31 | <Hixie> | wfm |
| 22:31 | <Hixie> | no load or memory problems on the machine at the moment |
| 22:31 | <Hixie> | only minor nfs lag, nothing serious |
| 22:31 | <Hixie> | no unusual processes, either |
| 22:33 | <gsnedders> | working again now |
| 22:34 | gsnedders | gets to the thing which he doesn't want to document |
| 22:34 | <gsnedders> | Detection of w3c status |
| 22:34 | <gsnedders> | This took me a while to reverse engineer :P |
| 22:35 | <gsnedders> | (in part because I was mislead by the docs) |
| 22:51 | <gsnedders> | I probably should've started writing the ack section months ago |
| 23:14 | Hixie | adds a ten-day moving average to http://www.whatwg.org/issues/data.html for no apparently reason |
| 23:23 | gsnedders | doesn't really want to write, "normally, the normal string substitutions are…" |
| 23:28 | gsnedders | wonders how to avoid [DATE] being parsed |
| 23:28 | <gsnedders> | This is making it rather hard to document |
| 23:29 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Is <!----> the shortest conforming comment? |
| 23:30 | <Hixie> | i believe so |
| 23:30 | <gsnedders> | Because although the text can't start with U+002D, the text is optional? |
| 23:31 | <Hixie> | right |
| 23:31 | <Hixie> | well |
| 23:31 | <Hixie> | iirc, the text isn't optional, but it can be the empty string |
| 23:31 | <Hixie> | which is the same thing! |
| 23:32 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: text is may |
| 23:32 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Thus it isn't required |
| 23:34 | <Hixie> | ah ok |
| 23:34 | <Hixie> | well there you go then |
| 23:34 | <gsnedders> | (string subs must be contained within a single text node, thus having a comment that is empty stops it from being repalced) |
| 23:34 | <gsnedders> | *replaced |
