| 00:03 | <Hixie> | olliej: as far as i can tell he's not critiquing it, just quoting funny things, like bash.org or quotes.burntelectrons.org |
| 00:04 | <BenMillard> | Hixie, the quotes focus on particular focus and the parts which express particular themes are emphasised |
| 00:04 | <BenMillard> | s/particular focus/subjects/ |
| 00:21 | <Hixie> | BenMillard: so do bash.org or quotes.burntelectrons.org |
| 00:27 | <BenMillard> | Hixie, I didn't notice much focus or attention to particular themes in the selection of quotes those places have... |
| 00:29 | <Hixie> | yeah, i guess |
| 00:29 | <Hixie> | well, whatever. _i_ find it funny. :-P |
| 00:30 | <BenMillard> | Hixie, I guess it takes all sorts to make a world. :) |
| 00:30 | <Hixie> | ok time to work out when the value of a textarea changes |
| 00:36 | <Hixie> | ok this is ridiculous |
| 00:37 | <Hixie> | who was in charge of forms before me? |
| 00:37 | <Hixie> | i need to have a word with them |
| 00:37 | <Hixie> | in private |
| 00:37 | <Dashiva> | I think you need to talk to Adam Smith then :) |
| 00:37 | <Hixie> | behind a building that happens to back onto a large river |
| 00:41 | <Hixie> | good lord almighty. IE is disqualified from this race. |
| 00:41 | Hixie | tries to find SOME interoperability amongst the other UAs |
| 00:41 | <BenMillard> | Hixie, you need some exclamations which are more atheistic. :) |
| 00:42 | <Hixie> | looks like opera and mozilla win the interop competition. |
| 00:42 | <Hixie> | BenMillard: yeah, but athetistic exclamantions sound too flat |
| 00:43 | <BenMillard> | Hixie, such as "Great Scot!" "Good grief!" "Crikey!" |
| 00:43 | <Hixie> | see, they all sound so lame |
| 00:43 | <BenMillard> | it's true :( |
| 00:43 | <Hixie> | anyway i'm secure enough in my atheism to happily blaspheme in other faiths |
| 00:44 | <Hixie> | (appologies to anyone it might be offending) |
| 00:44 | <Hixie> | apologies, even |
| 00:44 | <Hixie> | i always mistype that work, which is funny, given how much i use it |
| 00:44 | <Hixie> | it looks wrong without any duplicate letters |
| 00:44 | <BenMillard> | word? |
| 00:44 | <Hixie> | word. |
| 00:45 | <BenMillard> | :P |
| 00:45 | <Dashiva> | BenMillard: I always thought it was "Great Scott" |
| 00:45 | <Hixie> | it is |
| 00:45 | <Dashiva> | oh. |
| 00:47 | <Philip`> | I was going to suggest "Gadzooks!" but that's probably of theistic origin |
| 00:54 | <Hixie> | Philip`: and lame. :-P |
| 01:12 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: you should probably let jules know that i just obliterated his changes and that the html5 spec is autogenerated so if he wants things in it changed he should talk to me |
| 01:15 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: yeah, I'm reading mail now.. TimBL is the one who pointed out the link problem. Can you please change http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-html5-20080609/ to http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-html5-200806010/ ? |
| 01:15 | <Hixie> | already done |
| 01:15 | <Hixie> | not quite sure how that mistake happened, i assume the date of that draft changed from what we'd agreed or something |
| 01:16 | <Hixie> | it's not like i type those urls in by hand :-) |
| 01:17 | <Hixie> | hsivonen_: would be useful for the validator to give warnings when in-document links are broken (href="#foo" with no id="foo") |
| 01:17 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: thanks |
| 01:17 | <Philip`> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/stdout.txt already warns about that ("warning: can't find target for #repetition" etc) |
| 01:18 | <Dashiva> | That page would be much more useful without text/html content-type |
| 01:18 | <Philip`> | I blame Hixie :-) |
| 01:18 | <Hixie> | Philip`: ah, interesting |
| 01:18 | <Hixie> | Philip`: i should, like, use that somehow |
| 01:19 | <Hixie> | oh nevermind |
| 01:19 | <Hixie> | this will have far too many false positives |
| 01:19 | <Hixie> | because of all the #refsXXX |
| 01:19 | <Hixie> | hsivonen_: nevermind |
| 01:20 | <Dashiva> | Maybe if he put the ones starting with #refs in a separate section |
| 01:20 | <Philip`> | I don't think the validator's warning output should be specifically tailored to the warnings produced by the HTML5 spec... |
| 01:21 | <Dashiva> | Think of it was a plugin |
| 01:21 | <Dashiva> | *as |
| 01:21 | <BenMillard> | Dashiva, yeah text/plain for stdout.txt would avoid the <h2> and so forth creating unclosed heading elements which make the text grow to dramatic sizes. |
| 01:21 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: seriously though, if you could let tim know that if there are broken links in the html5 spec he should talk to me instead of having the systeam just inplace edit the draft, that would be great. having a conflict broke my script and wasted at least 10 minutes of my time. |
| 01:26 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: I'm not in the habit of telling Tim what to do. I'll ask Jules to check with me first if/when anybody reports problems to him about the editor's draft. |
| 01:27 | <Hixie> | k |
| 01:32 | <Hixie> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Oct/0010.html |
| 01:33 | <Hixie> | ok now that that is fixed, let's go back to <textarea>... |
| 01:42 | <BenMillard> | Hixie, the 4-links-in-a-heading totally seems like it should work, to me: http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/articles/hidden-barriers/hidden-barriers-multiple-links-in-headings/ |
| 01:44 | <Hixie> | i'm confused |
| 01:44 | <Dashiva> | Why does AT software do things like that? |
| 01:44 | <Hixie> | isn't that just an AT bug? |
| 01:44 | <BenMillard> | Hixie, that's what it seems like to me. |
| 01:44 | <BenMillard> | item 3 in the numbered list also seems like it should work if correct punctuation is present, such as: <h1>News (<a href>RSS Feed</a>)</h1> |
| 01:45 | <Hixie> | <h1>News (<a href="">RSS feed</a>)</h1> seems a bit more dubious |
| 01:48 | <BenMillard> | Hixie, yes that specific use-case is hard to justifiy; I meant that <h1>Foo (<a href>Bar</a>)</h1> should read sensible and not sound like a link to "Foo Bar" |
| 01:49 | <Hixie> | agreed |
| 01:50 | <Dashiva> | Hixie, the diffing on google sites kinda sucks, fix it |
| 01:50 | <Hixie> | hm? |
| 01:51 | <Dashiva> | It keeps telling me I deleted the entire page, then added the exact same content back with the new stuff at the end :) |
| 01:51 | <BenMillard> | Dashiva, the description in item 3 makes me think the screen reader announces everything in the heading when a link inside that heading gets focus |
| 01:51 | <Hixie> | Dashiva: i've no idea what you're talking about :-) |
| 01:51 | <BenMillard> | Dashiva, maybe that's helpful much of the time but it does seem doomed to fail in fairly straightforward circumstances. |
| 01:52 | <Dashiva> | Hixie: I know, you're just the closest google guy to pour my annoyances upon :P |
| 01:53 | <Dashiva> | BenMillard: That makes sense, somewhat |
| 01:53 | <Hixie> | Dashiva: if you can give me steps to reproduce the bug from scratch, i can file the bug |
| 02:04 | <eric_carlson> | Hixie: I'm not sure if you are the right one to bug, but http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/ is failing with a 500 error |
| 02:08 | Philip` | predicts broken .htaccess |
| 02:11 | <Hixie> | eric_carlson: thanks, should be fixed in a few minutes |
| 02:12 | <eric_carlson> | Thanks! |
| 02:17 | <Hixie> | ok dinner time |
| 02:17 | <Hixie> | bbl |
| 02:17 | <BenMillard> | Hixie & Dashiva, I left a comment: http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/articles/hidden-barriers/hidden-barriers-multiple-links-in-headings/#comment-106532 |
| 02:17 | <BenMillard> | (actually 2 because I forgot a link the 1st time) |
| 02:18 | <BenMillard> | cool, it turned by straight punctuation into curly punctuation :) |
| 02:19 | <BenMillard> | s/by/my/ |
| 02:21 | <Philip`> | BenMillard: If I were you, I wouldn't be able to resist trying to post a comment using punctuation such that its curlification process gets everything wrong... |
| 02:25 | <BenMillard> | Philip`, you're a big meanie! |
| 02:26 | <Philip`> | BenMillard: I knew that already ;-) |
| 02:27 | <Philip`> | Why does anything exist, if not for people to break it? |
| 02:52 | <MikeSmith> | I'm wondering if we have documented somewhere the cases in which the existing parsing behavior in IE differs from what parsing algorithm in HTML5. |
| 02:54 | <takkaria> | nope |
| 02:54 | <takkaria> | but there's a lot of them |
| 02:58 | <takkaria> | the main one is that HTML5 already results in trees, and IE doesn't |
| 02:59 | <MikeSmith> | takkaria: OK, I knew about that main one. |
| 03:02 | <MikeSmith> | When I was at Web Directions in Sydney, I was asked why the spec doesn't just document the IE parsing behavior. |
| 03:02 | <MikeSmith> | I mean, in the cases where there are specific differences between parsing behavior in browsers. |
| 03:02 | <MikeSmith> | (and outside of the problem that IE doesn't actually use a tree) |
| 03:03 | <takkaria> | I got the impression that generally the spec was written to be as close to IE as possible but no closer |
| 03:03 | <takkaria> | some things it does are just weird, and other browsers have better behaviour |
| 03:03 | <takkaria> | some things will have been changed for better future extension, I would imagine |
| 03:05 | <takkaria> | but obviously, keeping a list of all IE's behaviour vs. HTML5 behaviour would be prohibitively expensive |
| 03:05 | <takkaria> | because you'd have to be able to reverse IE's algorithm exactly to do that |
| 03:16 | <MikeSmith> | takkaria: I see |
| 03:18 | <MikeSmith> | What I said to the person who asked me is pretty much the same as "some things it does are just weird, and other browsers have better behaviour" |
| 03:18 | <MikeSmith> | but I couldn't think of any specific cases |
| 03:19 | <MikeSmith> | I'm sure I'll get asked again some time, so I want to educate myself about at least what some of the known cases are. |
| 03:21 | <takkaria> | <select> parsing I believe is weird in IE |
| 03:21 | <takkaria> | I'm sure Hixie will be able to mention a few |
| 03:21 | <MikeSmith> | OK |
| 03:28 | <takkaria> | Hixie called HTML5 "mostly complete" at the beginning of 2007 |
| 03:32 | <takkaria> | some of the differences will also be in how document.write() interacts with parsing |
| 03:33 | <takkaria> | http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1155195074&count=1 |
| 03:34 | <takkaria> | MikeSmith: also http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1138169545&order=-1&count=5 and other posts with titles starting "Tag Soup" |
| 03:37 | <MikeSmith> | takkaria: thanks |
| 06:27 | <MikeSmith> | takkaria: thanks again very much for that pointer -- that's pretty much exactly what I was looking for |
| 06:32 | <krijnh> | Philip`: I know, sorry :) |
| 06:53 | <Hixie> | takkaria: mostly complete was right, it still had some features missing but most of the stuff was in. |
| 07:57 | <hsivonen_> | are there visualizations and/or test cases for crazy multilevel document.write() cases? |
| 08:25 | Hixie | does his weekly read though w3c lists to keep up to date |
| 08:25 | <Hixie> | it's amazing how much time some groups spend talking about talking |
| 08:25 | <Hixie> | setting up meetings, etc |
| 08:42 | <annevk2> | probably because nobody makes a decision beforehand |
| 08:54 | <zcorpan> | so aiui the svg 1.2 tiny spec is supposed to be proving two interoperable implementations with about 500 test cases |
| 08:55 | <zcorpan> | i didn't understand that "tiny" also referred to the test suite |
| 08:55 | <annevk2> | hahaha |
| 09:16 | annevk2 | can't find longdesc on http://juicystudio.com/article/examining-wai-aria-roles.php |
| 09:17 | <annevk2> | and alt is useless "List of ARIA roles with the parent nodes and markup fragment in a table." |
| 09:17 | <annevk2> | sounds more like a title or summary |
| 09:40 | <Lachy> | Hi everyone, I'm back in Oslo |
| 10:47 | <annevk2> | Hixie, newValue of the StorageEvent interface is not properly linked |
| 10:47 | annevk2 | will e-mail |
| 10:55 | <Philip`> | annevk2: Did you see my complaint about your blog? |
| 11:01 | <annevk2> | oh yeah, I read that yesterday evening, not sure what happened |
| 11:01 | <annevk2> | when that happens it means there's a difference between submitting from a textarea and a hidden input |
| 11:01 | <annevk2> | which either means spambot or error in the browser... |
| 11:02 | <annevk2> | or something I'm missing, of course :) |
| 11:04 | <annevk2> | ah wait, it also happens when you use some entities |
| 11:05 | <zcorpan_> | wow i think this is the first time i've come across wf2 being used in the wild |
| 11:06 | <Philip`> | annevk2: I claim I'm not a spambot, and it failed in three independent browsers so I guess it's not an error in the browsers :-) |
| 11:06 | <Philip`> | (I did have some <s and things in the comment) |
| 11:07 | <zcorpan_> | saw a type="email" when requesting automatic payment, can't link to it unfortunately |
| 11:08 | <annevk2> | Philip`, updated the message |
| 11:09 | <annevk2> | maybe I should use a regular expression though then the chance of error will increase :) |
| 11:09 | <annevk2> | for some reason stray & just got passed through and were not found in error by the XML parser |
| 11:10 | <annevk2> | so a comment that contains & after normalizing most entities will not go through |
| 11:10 | <Philip`> | annevk2: So how do I write a '<' character if I'm not allowed to use entities? |
| 11:10 | <annevk2> | not? |
| 11:11 | <Philip`> | ? |
| 11:11 | <annevk2> | I had this plan of making better software at some point, but it never happened |
| 11:12 | <Philip`> | CDATA sections don't work either |
| 11:12 | <Philip`> | All I want to do is give an example of some XML code :-/ |
| 11:13 | <annevk2> | make your comment, omit & and I'll fix it for you |
| 11:15 | <Philip`> | Hmm, posted it with full-width less-than/greater-than characters now |
| 11:15 | <Philip`> | which looks ugly but worked |
| 11:19 | <annevk2> | pretty hilarious that localStorage in IE is such a hack |
| 11:22 | <Philip`> | Is localStorage[""] meant to work? |
| 11:22 | <Philip`> | (I think that breaks in IE) |
| 11:27 | <Philip`> | Is anyone writing test cases for this storage stuff? |
| 11:28 | <annevk2> | maybe Firefox has some? |
| 11:28 | <annevk2> | seems that empty string should work |
| 11:28 | <annevk2> | undefined and null should stringify as Hixie didn't define other behavior |
| 11:30 | <annevk2> | heh, in another channel svl had a funny idea, start a "next week in HTML5" blog |
| 11:46 | <billyjackass> | "next week in HTML5" would be great |
| 12:20 | <annevk2> | wilhelm, yay! |
| 12:24 | <wilhelm> | annevk2: I'm not sure if that work should be done in the HTML WG or the Webapps WG, though. Opinions? (c: |
| 12:26 | <hsivonen_> | to me it seems to fall under Webapps mandate, but technically, it needs to be defined in terms of the event loop, which is in the HTML5 spec |
| 12:33 | <billyjackass> | wilhelm: what particular work are you referring to? |
| 12:34 | <wilhelm> | Timers (setTimeout, clearTimeout, setInterval, clearInterval). See my mail on public-html. |
| 12:36 | <billyjackass> | OK |
| 12:53 | <annevk2> | wilhelm, WebApps |
| 12:54 | <annevk2> | wilhelm, references to HTML5 should be ok, though there will be some political arguments over it :) |
| 12:57 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 12:57 | <tiglionabbit> | hi guys |
| 12:57 | <MikeSmith> | wilhelm: WebApps is the new W3C |
| 12:57 | <tiglionabbit> | I shoulda gotten into this quite a while ago |
| 12:58 | <tiglionabbit> | I was reading through the differences doc, and I thought about a few things |
| 12:58 | <tiglionabbit> | first off, I heard rumors years ago that href was going to be a global attribute |
| 12:58 | <tiglionabbit> | why hasn't that happened? |
| 12:58 | <zcorpan_> | tiglionabbit: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#HTML5_should_support_href_on_any_element.21 |
| 13:00 | <tiglionabbit> | hm |
| 13:01 | <tiglionabbit> | I still think it should, but oh well. |
| 13:02 | <zcorpan_> | have you read eric meyer's blog on this? |
| 13:02 | <tiglionabbit> | when I was reading the form differences, I thought -- you know, people often use this pattern where they insert some grey placeholder text in a text input / textarea and then remove it when you focus it. If that was added as an attribute, that would save me from a lot of terrible implementations of this |
| 13:02 | <tiglionabbit> | zcorpan_: link?+ |
| 13:03 | <zcorpan_> | http://meyerweb.com/eric/html-xhtml/html5-linking.html |
| 13:03 | <zcorpan_> | that would be placeholder='', implemented in webkit |
| 13:03 | <annevk2> | we'll likely add a placeholder attribute at some point |
| 13:03 | <tiglionabbit> | cool |
| 13:16 | <tiglionabbit> | one thing I was surprised about reading the differences doc was this phrase: "The new content model concepts (replacing HTML 4's block and inline concepts)." -- now, this doesn't mean 'display:block' is going to be dropped from css, does it? |
| 13:19 | <virtuelv> | no |
| 13:19 | <virtuelv> | it doesn't |
| 13:19 | <tiglionabbit> | so those concepts still exist |
| 13:20 | <zcorpan_> | tiglionabbit: html4's block and inline concepts have nothing to do with css |
| 13:20 | <tiglionabbit> | by that you mean just the rules, like blocks can't go inside inlines? |
| 13:20 | <zcorpan_> | yeah |
| 13:21 | <zcorpan_> | the content model concerns how you can nest elements |
| 13:21 | <zcorpan_> | css concerns how things are rendered |
| 13:21 | <zcorpan_> | they are orthogonal |
| 13:21 | <tiglionabbit> | so you'd consider the default styles for various elements to still be in the domain of css |
| 13:21 | <zcorpan_> | yes |
| 13:22 | <tiglionabbit> | man I wish IE would support inline-block, btw |
| 13:22 | <zcorpan_> | ie8 should support it in its ie8 mode |
| 13:22 | <tiglionabbit> | what is ie8 mode |
| 13:22 | <zcorpan_> | what they call "standards mode" |
| 13:23 | <tiglionabbit> | is it still triggered by using a doctype, any doctype? |
| 13:24 | <zcorpan_> | it depends on whether you're in an intranet or on the web, and on meta tags, and http headers, and doctypes, and the phase of the moon |
| 13:25 | <tiglionabbit> | just like encountering werewolves in nethack |
| 13:30 | <tiglionabbit> | *skims* aww, no years outside the 0-9999 limit. Reminds me when I was showing my friend scaffolding in rails and he wanted to make an application about dinosaurs, and their extinction dates |
| 13:32 | <tiglionabbit> | also, the <ruby> element -- that's existed for years, hasn't it? I know it's been in all sorts of books, but I don't think it did anything |
| 13:32 | <hsivonen_> | tiglionabbit: <ruby> is supported in IE5.5+ |
| 13:33 | <hsivonen_> | tiglionabbit: the Gregorian calendar wasn't around for dinosaurs |
| 13:34 | <tiglionabbit> | hsivonen_: I know, but this format supports the julian calendar too (not that any calendar existed back then) |
| 13:34 | <tiglionabbit> | I was just chuckling, not making a suggestion |
| 13:36 | <hsivonen_> | tiglionabbit: actually, HTML5 does *not* support the Julian calendar |
| 13:36 | <hsivonen_> | (definitely on the wrong side of the 80/20 rule) |
| 13:38 | <tiglionabbit> | oops, misread that comment on converting julian to gregorian |
| 13:40 | <tiglionabbit> | btw, the form attribute -- does that mean you can now pull things like <form id="form" action="stuff" /> <input type="text" form="form" /> ? |
| 13:40 | <tiglionabbit> | that would be handy in situations where you want to have a different form on each table row, since you wouldn't be allowed to wrap <tr>s with <form>s |
| 13:41 | <tiglionabbit> | speaking of which, will it become legal to wrap <tr>s and <li>s with meta elements like <form> and <a> and such? |
| 13:41 | <hsivonen_> | tiglionabbit: yes (except in text/html, you need <form ...></form> instead of <form .../>) |
| 13:42 | <zcorpan_> | and no, it's not allowed to wrap <tr>s and <li>s in <form> or <a> |
| 13:42 | <tiglionabbit> | hm |
| 13:42 | <hsivonen_> | (and won't be for legacy compat reasons) |
| 13:43 | <tiglionabbit> | can we follow this pattern a little further and dissociate <a>s from their hrefs? Like, <link id="google" href="http://google.com"; /> <a link="google">search</a> |
| 13:43 | <tiglionabbit> | would help to not repeat yourself, kinda like the way datalist helps |
| 13:44 | <tiglionabbit> | also, it would be kinda like markdown |
| 13:44 | <zcorpan_> | i pushed for <form><tr> to be allowed back in ... 2005/2006, i think, making it parsed and styled like <tbody>, but it was rejected. form='' covers the use-case anyway |
| 13:46 | <tiglionabbit> | you know, [whatwg][5] and then later on [5]:"www.whatwg.org" |
| 13:46 | <zcorpan_> | if you don't like typing html, you can type markdown and convert it to html |
| 13:47 | <tiglionabbit> | :P I suppose |
| 13:47 | <tiglionabbit> | but I'm not voicing against html here, but repetition of the same url within a document |
| 13:48 | <zcorpan_> | your suggested solution isn't backwards compatible |
| 13:49 | <zcorpan_> | you can use the internal subset with xhtml5 |
| 13:49 | <tiglionabbit> | use what? |
| 13:50 | <zcorpan_> | <!DOCTYPE html [ <!ENTITY google "http://google.com">; ]> ... <a href="&google;"> |
| 13:51 | <tiglionabbit> | what's that? |
| 13:51 | <tiglionabbit> | where can I read about this stuff |
| 13:52 | <zcorpan_> | the xml spec i guess |
| 13:52 | <hsivonen_> | specifiers of XML5 won't be happy with you if you use the internal subset |
| 13:52 | <zcorpan_> | hsivonen_: anne has already specced the internal subset |
| 13:52 | <tiglionabbit> | I had never heard of the eclectic sgml they mentioned like <em/content/ |
| 13:53 | <hsivonen_> | zcorpan_: perhaps it's too late to zap the internal subset :-( |
| 13:53 | <tiglionabbit> | but now I want to know |
| 13:53 | <zcorpan_> | hsivonen_: yes. it needs to be supported for compat with svg images output by some popular tool at least |
| 13:54 | <tiglionabbit> | is inkscape that popular tool or no |
| 13:54 | <hsivonen_> | tiglionabbit: Illustrator |
| 13:54 | <tiglionabbit> | oh... |
| 13:54 | <hsivonen_> | zcorpan_: or alternatively, the illustrator entities could be predefined |
| 13:54 | <zcorpan_> | hsivonen_: heh |
| 13:55 | <ROBOd> | guys, sorry for interrupting: what's the problem with http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/ ? |
| 13:55 | <ROBOd> | i get internal server error |
| 13:59 | <tiglionabbit> | oh hey, it's now legal to have attributes with no value, like <video controls> ? What does that look like to javascript? |
| 14:01 | <jcranmer> | that's been legal since, oh, forever (or somehting close to that)! |
| 14:02 | <tiglionabbit> | stuff like input checked? |
| 14:02 | <tiglionabbit> | hm |
| 14:02 | <tiglionabbit> | I never did experiment with that -- would always be pedantic and say checked="true" |
| 14:02 | <annevk2> | which would be wrong |
| 14:02 | <tiglionabbit> | damn |
| 14:03 | <tiglionabbit> | how do you interact with those attributes with javascript then? |
| 14:03 | <jcranmer> | the correct value would be checked="checked" |
| 14:04 | <tiglionabbit> | oh.. |
| 14:04 | <annevk2> | the W3C validator doesn't check for correct values |
| 14:04 | <zcorpan_> | tiglionabbit: <video controls> is exactly equivalent to <video controls=""> |
| 14:04 | <annevk2> | validator.nu does |
| 14:05 | <zcorpan_> | annevk2: it checks for enumerated and boolean attributes |
| 14:05 | <annevk2> | oh |
| 14:06 | <zcorpan_> | and NUMBER attributes in html4 |
| 14:06 | <zcorpan_> | e.g. tabindex |
| 14:07 | <zcorpan_> | though XML DTDs don't have NUMBER and so tabindex is CDATA in xhtml |
| 14:07 | <annevk2> | hmm, I think I would've been happy if I remained ignorant of that :) |
| 14:07 | <tiglionabbit> | is id="5" still illegal? |
| 14:08 | <zcorpan_> | it wasn't in html4 but is in html5 |
| 14:08 | <zcorpan_> | er |
| 14:08 | <zcorpan_> | i got that backwards |
| 14:08 | <tiglionabbit> | :B |
| 14:09 | <zcorpan_> | ids in html5 can be anything but the emty string and can't contain whitespace |
| 14:09 | <tiglionabbit> | Since there are no DTDs, does that mean we can't go wild and stick arbitrary tag names in? |
| 14:09 | <zcorpan_> | right |
| 14:09 | <tiglionabbit> | I noticed in quirksmode in firefox css will work on arbitrary tag names |
| 14:10 | <tiglionabbit> | which made me want that to work in IE, but I never researched it enough |
| 14:10 | <zcorpan_> | works in standards mode too |
| 14:10 | <zcorpan_> | works in ie if you do createElement('foobar') first |
| 14:10 | <tiglionabbit> | for every occurence or just once? |
| 14:11 | <zcorpan_> | just once |
| 14:11 | <tiglionabbit> | interesting |
| 14:11 | <zcorpan_> | it makes ie treat such tags the same as it does for tags with colons in them |
| 14:12 | <tiglionabbit> | do you guys consider it bad to make up one's own tags? |
| 14:12 | <tiglionabbit> | I suppose that's allowed in xml mode? |
| 14:12 | <zcorpan_> | http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#HTML5_should_support_a_way_for_anyone_to_invent_new_elements.21 |
| 14:16 | zcorpan_ | wonders what the bookkeeping class is for in the spec source |
| 14:19 | <tiglionabbit> | so that says data-* elements are safe -- is this true in earlier html versions? |
| 14:19 | <tiglionabbit> | *attributes |
| 14:19 | <zcorpan_> | yes... but they aren't valid in earlier versions |
| 14:21 | <tiglionabbit> | yeah but that whole 'validity' thing never really mattered, right :P |
| 14:21 | <zcorpan_> | why not? |
| 14:22 | <tiglionabbit> | nothing bad happens? |
| 14:23 | <zcorpan_> | something bad happens when html n+1 introduces a new attribute with the same name as the one you invented |
| 14:23 | <zcorpan_> | some pages broke in opera when we implemented wf2 |
| 14:24 | <tiglionabbit> | wf2? |
| 14:25 | <zcorpan_> | though, to be fair, many of the problems were with dom attributes clashing with author's custom properties, and those are not checked in a validator (and authors are allowed to make up their own properties) |
| 14:25 | <zcorpan_> | web forms 2 |
| 14:26 | <tiglionabbit> | properties != attributes? |
| 14:26 | <zcorpan_> | and <input name>, <foo id> etc clutter the dom |
| 14:27 | <tiglionabbit> | properties are attributes without values? |
| 14:28 | <zcorpan_> | no |
| 14:28 | <zcorpan_> | you have properties on objects in javascript |
| 14:28 | <tiglionabbit> | ohh |
| 14:29 | <tiglionabbit> | those properties |
| 14:30 | <tiglionabbit> | btw, does anyone ever use the tbody tag? |
| 14:56 | <zcorpan_> | Hixie: afaict, clicking a label fires a click event at the associated form control, which might bubble up to the label again (but the second click event won't fire a third click event) |
| 14:58 | <zcorpan_> | Hixie: when clicking a link (or any other interactive element) in a label, the click event when bubbling through the label doesn't (or shouldn't) fire a click event on the associated form control |
| 14:59 | <zcorpan_> | though i haven't tested all form controls |
| 15:05 | <Philip`> | tiglionabbit: Loads of people use <tbody>, though maybe just because their tool emits it automatically |
| 15:06 | <Philip`> | tiglionabbit: e.g. http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/tag/tbody says 647 pages out of 7739 contain at least one <tbody> |
| 15:30 | <hsivonen_> | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/69913/why-dont-self-closing-script-tags-work |
| 15:36 | annevk2 | does not have enough power to downvote |
| 15:37 | <hsivonen_> | annevk2: would you downvote the accepted answer? |
| 15:38 | <annevk2> | I tried |
| 15:38 | <annevk2> | zcorpan_, I think he knows that, we figured out activation behavior some time ago |
| 15:38 | <hsivonen_> | annevk2: you need 100 experience to gain a level :-) |
| 15:39 | <annevk2> | zcorpan_, I think the idea was that it would be defined in DOM3Events, but you know... |
| 15:39 | <annevk2> | hsivonen_, I got 3 upvotes today but I'm still 41 |
| 15:40 | <annevk2> | not that it would make me 100, but still |
| 16:31 | <zcorpan_> | Hixie: the forums give a 500 |
| 16:49 | <annevk2> | zcorpan_, seems fine now |
| 19:49 | <Hixie> | annevk2, zcorpan_: send mail for feedback, i'm swamped right now |
| 19:49 | <Hixie> | multipage copy should be fixed now |
| 20:17 | <Hixie> | lastweekinhtml5 has beecome very meta |
| 20:17 | <Hixie> | it's now a blog about people talking about the blog on irc |
| 20:21 | <zcorpan_> | you guys should stop talking about the blog to make the blog more interesting |
| 20:22 | <gavin> | that's funny |
| 20:22 | <gavin> | hadn't heard of that blog before |
| 20:27 | <Hixie> | xml loses another devoted follower http://uberbrady.blogspot.com/2007/01/misguided.html |
| 20:28 | <Hixie> | funny how xml loses followers whenever they start having to do actual real work with xml |
| 20:30 | <smedero> | hixie: I assume you meant to link to this: http://uberbrady.blogspot.com/2008/10/horrifically-bad-technology.html |
| 20:30 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Wrong link? |
| 20:30 | <smedero> | but both are fun reads |
| 20:30 | <Hixie> | er yes |
| 20:30 | <Hixie> | my bad |
| 20:56 | <gsnedders> | Challenge: describe me in a paragraph. |
| 21:07 | <csarven> | gsnedders That guy from IRC. |
| 21:11 | <gsnedders> | csarven: heh. |
| 21:18 | <csarven> | gsnedders If I knew your OpenID, I would have said that instead :) |
| 21:18 | <gsnedders> | csarven: :) |
| 21:19 | <gsnedders> | csarven: I've actually managed to not have an OpenID. |
| 21:19 | <csarven> | Well, you have an hCard here http://gsnedders.com/ so there you go. gsnedders is http://gsnedders.com/ |
| 21:20 | <gsnedders> | gsnedders is someone who ought to cut his finger nails currently. |
| 21:25 | <csarven> | gsnedders Might want to put an @id on <address> so you can refer to that specific hCard if it happens to be that you have other hCards on a page. |
| 21:27 | hsivonen_ | mumbles something about URIs as identifiers of Web resources vs. URIs as identifiers of people |
| 22:38 | <BenMillard> | annevk2, yeah...I wonder why <blockquote><table> wasn't used: http://juicystudio.com/article/examining-wai-aria-roles.php |
| 22:39 | <BenMillard> | maybe the way it looks is important and creating a <style> block to override the site's author stylesheet was too much work |
| 23:01 | <BenMillard> | that "Horrifically bad technology" has moments which remind me of getting fiddly CSS layouts to rendering correctly cross-browser |
| 23:01 | <BenMillard> | difference being the implementations are what make CSS hard while it's the standards which make XML hard |
| 23:04 | <BenMillard> | Hixie, 2 links in a heading separated by a comma in the <h2> which starts “Social network portability”: http://alastairc.ac/2008/09/dconstruct-2008-notes/ |
| 23:05 | <BenMillard> | Hixie, on that page, before scripts execute, with attribute values trimmed: <h2 id><a href>Social network portability</a>, <a href=""><cite>Tantek Çelik</cite></a></h2> |
| 23:14 | <Hixie> | i guess that makes sense, except for the misuse of cite (per html5) |
| 23:34 | BenMillard | notices the link to OE-QuoteFix right at the end of the WHATWG FAQ and downloads it. |
| 23:40 | <hober> | BenMillard: it's pretty nice--I've been using it for a few months and it manages to do the right thing most of the time |
| 23:43 | <BenMillard> | hober, it isn't as integrated into OE as I was hoping. |
| 23:44 | <BenMillard> | and it doesn't untangle quotes which have been tangled by colleagues and companies |
| 23:44 | <BenMillard> | removing the big lump of header data and moving the insertion point below the message is already proving useful, though |
| 23:45 | <hober> | *nod* |
| 23:45 | <BenMillard> | oh, actually it doesn't move the insertion point |
| 23:47 | <hober> | It's not as good as `gnus-article-outlook-deuglify-article', but then again, what is? :) |
| 23:47 | <BenMillard> | hober, is that an actual thing or a joke? |
| 23:47 | <hober> | it's an actual Gnus command, bound to W Y f |
| 23:50 | <BenMillard> | "Treat dumbquotes, unwrap lines, repair attribution and rearrange citation." -- http://quimby.gnus.org/gnus/manual/big-gnus.html |
| 23:51 | <hober> | It does a *remarkably* good job of it, too. |
| 23:51 | <BenMillard> | hober, the manual is giving me that impression as well :) |
| 23:52 | <BenMillard> | an Outlook Express that untangles things in a seamless way would be awesome...I'll nose around what's available after the TPAC |