| 04:39 | <Hixie> | i'm in the lobby if anyone's around |
| 07:53 | <Hixie> | i'm in Isles B now. |
| 07:58 | annevk4 | will be there later |
| 07:58 | annevk4 | needs food |
| 08:10 | Hixie | peers unhappily at 800ms pings to norway and california |
| 08:13 | <virtuelv> | Hixie: if you're in mandelieu, everyone else are seeing slow connections |
| 08:13 | gsnedders | is in Mandelieu |
| 08:13 | <gsnedders> | (and has slow connection) |
| 08:13 | <gsnedders> | I'm downstairs by the registration, with BenMillard |
| 08:14 | <Hixie> | cool |
| 08:14 | <Hixie> | hsivonen and i are in isles b |
| 08:14 | <Hixie> | let's make sure we meet up at the break |
| 08:14 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: What's there? |
| 08:14 | <gsnedders> | (and where?) |
| 08:14 | <Hixie> | web apps |
| 08:14 | <gsnedders> | ah |
| 08:14 | <Hixie> | anne's here too |
| 08:14 | <Hixie> | and jonas |
| 08:14 | <gsnedders> | Yeah, we just saw anne |
| 08:15 | annevk4 | just saw green hair on a photo |
| 08:15 | <gsnedders> | I guess if we go where anne went we'll find it |
| 08:15 | <gsnedders> | I guess if I come in you'll all want to see :P |
| 08:16 | <Hixie> | i'm assuming he's the one who looked confused when i said hi |
| 08:16 | <Hixie> | or rather, when i waved |
| 08:17 | Hixie | waits for him to get back online |
| 08:19 | virtuelv | is in the other web apps meeting |
| 10:10 | <timbl> | Hixie? |
| 10:11 | <annevk4> | we're in the Web Apps WG meeting |
| 10:11 | <annevk4> | that is, most of the WHATWG people who are here are there, including Hixie :) |
| 10:13 | <timbl> | I wondered about having a continuation of the discussion we had this morning about moving html users toward cleaner web pages (etc etc) on the panel slot at 9:10 tomorrow |
| 10:14 | <Hixie> | timbl: yo wassup |
| 10:15 | <Hixie> | sure |
| 10:15 | <Hixie> | though really any discussion on that should have hsivonen and some browser vendors |
| 10:15 | <Hixie> | (i can give my opinions but i'm not the one who can make changes on this) |
| 10:17 | <timbl_> | Yes .. I thought that too |
| 10:17 | <timbl_> | This machine keeps swicthing access points |
| 10:20 | <gsnedders> | timbl_: Could we not have a joint TAG/HTML WG meeting Thurs/Fri? Wouldn't that be better allowing more to be around? |
| 10:21 | <timbl_> | We do have one set up |
| 10:21 | <gsnedders> | We do? Oh. |
| 10:21 | <timbl_> | But it Thursday 11-12 |
| 10:21 | <annevk4> | having some informal discussion as well seems good though |
| 10:22 | <gsnedders> | The only think I ever saw was the draft agenda MikeSmith sent out early Sept. |
| 10:23 | <annevk4> | especially since the meeting with the TAG is only an hour |
| 10:23 | <annevk4> | not a lot really given the amount of people that will be around |
| 10:23 | timbl | looks for logs as he missed a bit |
| 10:23 | <Hixie> | i'm definitely in favour of discussing this earlier rather than in the htmlwg meeting |
| 10:23 | <annevk4> | timbl, http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg gives you logs |
| 10:23 | <gsnedders> | Yeah, I think we could certainly talk for longer |
| 10:24 | <gsnedders> | But there's also the point that only a tiny fraction of the HTML WG is around |
| 10:25 | <hsivonen> | is lunch going to at Pullman? |
| 10:25 | <annevk4> | yeah, same level as most meetings |
| 10:25 | <gsnedders> | Is that this level? |
| 10:25 | <annevk4> | yes :) |
| 10:25 | <annevk4> | other side of the staircase |
| 10:26 | <gsnedders> | ah |
| 10:30 | <timbl_> | Ok Hixie, if you can get Henri to join that would be great |
| 10:30 | <MikeSmith> | I will attempt to get a revised HTML WG agenda out later today |
| 10:30 | gsnedders | changes topic to 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks! -- gsnedders had green hair, photos coming soon. :-) Anyone around at TPAC find him if you want to see them first.' |
| 10:30 | <annevk4> | sweet |
| 10:31 | <gsnedders> | MikeSmith: k |
| 10:31 | <gsnedders> | MikeSmith: It seems to have changed a bit |
| 10:31 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 10:31 | <MikeSmith> | timbl_: was planning on having TAG from 11 to 12:30, so 1.5 hr instead of just one hour |
| 10:32 | <timbl> | Ok |
| 10:33 | <gsnedders> | That still on the whole probably isn't really long enough |
| 10:33 | <gsnedders> | Having a meeting outwith the meeting probably wouldn't be a bad idea |
| 10:34 | <gsnedders> | (apologies for using Scottish English to confuse everyone) |
| 10:35 | <timbl> | you mean what used to be a meeting without a meeting in the sense of a farm without the city wall |
| 10:35 | <timbl> | ? |
| 10:35 | <gsnedders> | yeah |
| 10:35 | <gsnedders> | not without, outside of |
| 10:35 | <gsnedders> | outwith is the opposite of within |
| 10:37 | <timbl> | oe:without = scot:outwith != en:without |
| 10:38 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: yt? |
| 10:38 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: yes |
| 10:38 | <Hixie> | timbl: 9am tomorrow in the tag meeting? |
| 10:38 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: are you booked tomorrow morning yet? |
| 10:39 | <timbl> | did i say tomorrow .. no wednesday .. 9am in the panel slot |
| 10:39 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I've been asked to be in the PF room |
| 10:40 | <gsnedders> | webarch? |
| 10:40 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: it's not clear if my interest topic fit the agenda tomorrow morning |
| 10:40 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: in the PF room, that is |
| 10:40 | <timbl> | well, with more a focus on HTML5 |
| 10:41 | <Hixie> | timbl: oh i dunno if a panel would really be a good forum for this dicussion |
| 10:41 | <timbl> | Why would a pnel be worse than breakfast? |
| 10:42 | <timbl> | It is useful for other folks in both camps to see t earguments. |
| 10:42 | <Hixie> | because you won't get browser vendors to be honest with you in front of 1000 people |
| 10:42 | <Hixie> | if we want to actually get somewhere, we need an informal meeting |
| 10:43 | <timbl> | Well, if a group has one public posture and a different private one then they can't expect symapthy for their public one |
| 10:43 | <timbl> | I actually think (a) a lot can be achieved in public and (b) puhing the bounds a bit on accountability of brwser vendors doesn't hurt |
| 10:44 | <timbl> | There are always things which vendors need to keep to themselves. |
| 10:44 | <timbl> | We were talking about what sorts of scenario could work. |
| 10:45 | <timbl> | The motivatins of page authors etc |
| 10:46 | <Hixie> | well i'm interested in making actual progress on the topic, but i don't think i'm the person to be on a panel on the topic |
| 10:46 | <timbl> | Maybe a panel isn't the place for getting people to change their points of view or think outside the box |
| 10:46 | annevk4 | wonders what the topic is |
| 10:46 | <timbl> | If you aren't on the panel, Hixie, people would be constntly saying "well, in that case Hixie would say x" |
| 10:47 | <timbl> | Anne, possible panel on HTML5 and on Wed am at 9:10 |
| 10:49 | <annevk4> | that's early :) |
| 10:49 | <annevk4> | I suppose I'm ok with it, but if it's the TAG versus me I'm not so sure ;) |
| 10:49 | <timbl> | On whether it is possible to make browsers and validators encourage people to make their code cleaner rather than just put out anything which meets the HTML5 parsing rules, etc |
| 10:50 | <timbl> | Well, it would be useful to actually not have a a vs. b |
| 10:50 | <timbl> | The TAG is a set of peopl. |
| 10:50 | <timbl> | The WHATWH is too. |
| 10:51 | <Hixie> | timbl: i think we all agree with each other on the goals -- certainly you and i agreed with each other this morning. The problem is that the proposals that have been put forward so far are UI proposals that the vendors aren't convinced by. |
| 10:51 | <annevk4> | true, though I think it's fair to say that both groups have a shared mindset |
| 10:51 | <annevk4> | to some extent |
| 10:51 | <timbl> | We are suggesting Hixie and me and Henri and ... |
| 10:51 | <Hixie> | timbl: if you put these ideas to the browser vendors in a public forum like a panel, you'll get intuitive push back and then people will remember that panel when they consider the idea later |
| 10:52 | <Hixie> | timbl: which will make them negatively predisposed |
| 10:52 | <timbl> | Maybe |
| 10:52 | <Hixie> | timbl: i think if you want to make actual progress on this you need to speak 1:1 with ui developers that work for browser vendors and ask them directly to help you |
| 10:52 | <timbl> | So you think a side meeting somewhere earlier rather than later... |
| 10:53 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 10:53 | <Hixie> | i'd be happy to help faciliate that |
| 10:53 | <annevk4> | I don't think browsers will do more than error consoles and such; that is, won't implement end user visible UI for conformance errors |
| 10:53 | <gsnedders> | On a totally different note than that, has anyone actually looked at the t-shirt yet? What does it say after the W3C? |
| 10:53 | <annevk4> | there's a t-shirt? |
| 10:53 | <timbl> | An optional one? And one you can set to operate for certain web sites (like ones you are involved in generating) |
| 10:54 | <gsnedders> | annevk4: Got given one a registration |
| 10:54 | <timbl> | There is a shirt which says "W3C thanks the chairs" |
| 10:54 | <gsnedders> | timbl: ah. |
| 10:55 | <timbl> | (DHL lost a bunch of them so I didn't take one yet till the lost boxes arrive) |
| 10:55 | <gsnedders> | That sucks. |
| 10:56 | <timbl> | slife |
| 10:57 | <annevk4> | timbl, that might work, I guess browsers with extensions have that possibility already |
| 10:57 | <annevk4> | that is, Firefox |
| 10:57 | <timbl> | So who could we get in a browser vendors side discussion? |
| 10:57 | <annevk4> | I haven't investigated e.g. Firebug and others closely though for that functionality |
| 10:57 | annevk4 | is not a UI guy |
| 10:58 | <annevk4> | though I'm pretty sure our UI guys wouldn't like to add default UI for that :) |
| 10:58 | Philip` | used a validator extension in Firefox for a while, which showed a little green tick / red cross icon in the bottom-right of the screen for every page |
| 10:58 | <gsnedders> | timbl: It'd be good to get the iCab guy in, but he's not here |
| 10:58 | <Hixie> | sicking from mozilla is around, he'd be a good person to talk to |
| 10:58 | <gsnedders> | (iCab had a smily depending on conformance) |
| 10:59 | <hsivonen> | does any CSS agent support multiple concurrent views of one DOM? |
| 11:00 | Philip` | wonders what effect an HTML4 validator built into web browsers would have on HTML5 adoptance |
| 11:00 | <Philip`> | (because presumably it'd mark all HTML5 pages as invalid) |
| 11:00 | <annevk4> | hsivonen, not properly afaik |
| 11:00 | <hsivonen> | annevk4: thanks |
| 11:00 | <timbl> | A smiley is a 1-bit verdict .. 1-bit verdicts don't motivate you unless you are near the boundary between failure and success |
| 11:00 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: very good point |
| 11:01 | <timbl> | If it were to give you a 56/100 then you might be interested in how to get 57 |
| 11:01 | <gsnedders> | timbl: Sure, but iCab at least had _some_ UI by default, and I know of no other browser that even had that |
| 11:01 | <timbl> | Oh, Arena did |
| 11:01 | <timbl> | prob others |
| 11:01 | <gsnedders> | Arena? I've not even heard of that :) |
| 11:02 | <hsivonen> | (my IRC bandwidth sucks with laptop keyboards) |
| 11:02 | <timbl> | Dave Raggett's browser .. that was a while ago :) |
| 11:02 | <gsnedders> | I guess before I had ever used this internet thing :) |
| 11:03 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: I always use my laptop, so I'm kinda used to it |
| 11:06 | <timbl> | "Raggett also used the Arena browser to show text flow around images, forms and other aspects of HTML at the First WWW Conference in Geneva in 1994. Arena was later used for development work at CERN." Arena demoed that one could do tables in HTML and that it was useful, and Dave R led a push to agree on table tags. |
| 11:06 | <timbl> | () |
| 11:06 | <gsnedders> | 1994? When I was 2, then. |
| 11:06 | <gsnedders> | I don't really remember that. |
| 11:09 | <Philip`> | (...Adoptance? That's not a word. I think I meant adoption.) |
| 11:11 | <timbl> | (Well, it was fun. (Still is.) There was a big drop in interoperability when everyone did different tables, and then a push to get a standard as the web was filling up with ... but anyway .. strange that time sips by so fast that anyone was a young as 2 then. ) |
| 11:11 | <timbl> | Well i have a keynote before that ... i could use it to talk about this |
| 11:17 | <MikeSmith> | wakaba: are you there? |
| 12:17 | <roc> | If you install Firebug, and enable it globally (or for particular web sites, both are easy), it shows an error count in the bottom right of the window. Clicking on that count gives you the JS error console |
| 12:21 | <roc> | Maybe we should give non-validating sites a performance penalty |
| 12:22 | <roc> | for some definition of "validating" |
| 12:52 | <hendry> | hsivonen: did you say 2pm for tag? |
| 13:00 | smedero | waves to gsnedders |
| 13:00 | gsnedders | waves at smedero |
| 13:01 | <smedero> | gsnedders: how'd you end up getting from the train station at Cannes to Mandelieu? |
| 13:01 | <smedero> | taxi? |
| 13:01 | <gsnedders> | smedero: taxi, 25 euro |
| 13:01 | <smedero> | k-o, thanks |
| 13:11 | <wakaba> | MikeSmith: hi |
| 13:12 | <MikeSmith> | wakaba: hey |
| 13:12 | <gsnedders> | MikeSmith: where are you? |
| 13:12 | <MikeSmith> | gsnedders: in Widgets joint meeting with TAG |
| 13:13 | <gsnedders> | MikeSmith: Ah. I was kinda tempted by that. I'm just waiting for the other web apps WG |
| 13:13 | <MikeSmith> | gsnedders: discussion with the TAG is about the proposed uri:// schema |
| 13:13 | <MikeSmith> | gsnedders: discussion with the TAG is about the proposed uri:// scheme |
| 13:13 | <gsnedders> | yeah, I know |
| 13:14 | <MikeSmith> | wakaba: see my private message |
| 13:15 | <Philip`> | (uri:// scheme? Is that implying that all other schemes are not URIs?) |
| 13:17 | <MikeSmith> | Philip`: sorry, I meant widget:// |
| 13:17 | <Philip`> | MikeSmith: Ah, that makes more sense :-) |
| 13:18 | <roc> | I just had a brilliant idea! |
| 13:20 | <roc> | Web fonts for IE: Extend Dean Edwards' old IE7 script to parse @font-face, load TTF data with XHR, package it into EOT format, and stick it back in the @font-face as a data: URI |
| 13:22 | <Philip`> | roc: Seems easier to do the download-TTF-then-convert-to-EOT stages via a (caching) remote server, rather than in JS |
| 13:22 | <roc> | nah |
| 13:22 | <roc> | this way you just need one script that anyone can pull in with one line of code |
| 13:23 | <roc> | and IE does all the work |
| 13:24 | <roc> | I wonder how much of the CSSOM spec IE8 implements |
| 13:24 | <Philip`> | You can do it my way with just one script that anyone can pull in with one line of code, since somebody else is worrying about maintaining the server so that's not a concern, and it'll be much faster :-) |
| 13:29 | <roc> | Maybe I shouldn't tell anyone, so that Microsoft doesn't disable data: in @font-face src until it's too late |
| 13:35 | <hsivonen> | hendry: yeah, widgets/TAG happening now |
| 13:36 | <Philip`> | roc: Isn't there something like a 32KB limit on data: URIs in IE8? |
| 13:36 | <Philip`> | That'd make it pretty useless for fonts |
| 13:36 | <roc> | yeah |
| 13:36 | <roc> | apparently :-( |
| 13:36 | <roc> | blah |
| 13:37 | <jcranmer> | MS @font-face + EOT evangelism leave something to be desired |
| 13:37 | <jcranmer> | although ++ on roc's comment about MS probably not being willing to break compatibility |
| 13:38 | <roc> | well, I guess the reverse thing still works for Gecko and Webkit --- you can use script and the CSSOM to XHR-fetch an EOT font, unpack it, and put it back as a data: URL |
| 13:38 | <roc> | although i guess I shouldn't talk too much about that |
| 13:39 | <Philip`> | Can't someone just write a TTF-to-EOT conversion tool that ignores the licensing bits? |
| 13:39 | <jcranmer> | I'm quite sure someone would complain about that |
| 13:39 | <hsivonen> | roc: non-conforming sites could get a perf penalty if reporting errors to console has non-trivial cost |
| 13:40 | <roc> | it actuall does |
| 13:40 | <Philip`> | jcranmer: People complain about lots of things, but that doesn't stop those things from getting done :-) |
| 13:40 | <jcranmer> | it seems to me that the EOT proponents are trying to eat their cake and have it too |
| 13:41 | <jcranmer> | I think I recall one of them pointing out that it wasn't difficult to ignore the license bit |
| 13:42 | <roc> | Bert's summary talked about how an EOT recorded its domain binding and also how trivial it is for someone to change that information |
| 13:42 | <jcranmer> | okay, that's where it was |
| 13:43 | <zcorpan> | hmm it seems something's gone wrong, either in the spec or in my impl, because it's not matching ie :( |
| 13:43 | <zcorpan> | (html color attributes) |
| 13:45 | <annevk4> | so per the latest argument, if you insert @font-face through script things are ok? |
| 13:45 | <Philip`> | roc: But they have a checksum, to prevent tampering! |
| 13:45 | <Philip`> | which is clearly foolproof |
| 13:47 | <roc> | Philip`: that's where it gets really silly. Bert's saying EOT is no problem w.r.t. DRM since it's so easily modified. In which case the checksum and XORing really are completely pointless complexity. |
| 13:47 | <Philip`> | (It's the sum of all bytes in the RootString, XORred with 0x50475342) |
| 13:47 | <karlcow> | [11:55] <timbl> There is a shirt which says "W3C thanks the chairs" |
| 13:47 | <karlcow> | http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/10/w3c-chairs-tshirt |
| 13:47 | <Philip`> | The file format description says RootString is a "list of URLs" - does that actually mean URLs, or is it URL prefixes, or is it domains, or what? |
| 13:47 | <roc> | it doesn't say |
| 13:48 | <roc> | IE interprets it as a list of URL prefixes |
| 13:48 | <Philip`> | Okay |
| 13:49 | <roc> | which is important, because a) it really needs to be URL prefixes to be useful for any dynamic site and b) EOT proponents recommend using it to scope to domains except when c) they need to talk about how EOT binds fonts to "particular documents" or "full URLs" |
| 13:50 | <roc> | annevk4: that's more or less what I asked in my latest message |
| 13:57 | <zcorpan> | aha. i should be trimming all but the right-most 8 chars |
| 15:25 | <zcorpan> | http://simon.html5.org/test/html/rendering/color-attributes/ |
| 15:28 | <Philip`> | "#123": got #010203, expected #112233 |
| 15:28 | <Philip`> | says IE6, in all modes |
| 15:52 | <annevk4> | zcorpan, yo, see krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs for CSS logs |
| 16:05 | <Hixie> | annevk4: did anyone actually raise the "null" issue in an e-mail anywhere? |
| 16:07 | <Hixie> | nm found it |
| 16:12 | <hsivonen> | any dinner plans? |
| 16:15 | <Hixie> | i've got plans for tonight already |
| 16:15 | <Hixie> | but i'll be up for stuff the rest of the week |
| 16:17 | gsnedders | was planning on following someone |
| 16:17 | annevk4 | has no real plans yet |
| 16:25 | <Lachy> | I have no plans yet either |
| 16:28 | <hsivonen> | the session I'm in is ending in a minute |
| 16:30 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen, Lachy : I'd be up for eating dinner somewhere close by |
| 16:31 | <hsivonen> | coming down in a moment |
| 16:31 | <MikeSmith> | k |
| 16:31 | <annevk4> | i'll join! |
| 16:31 | <Lachy> | MikeSmith, ok |
| 16:31 | <gsnedders> | I'll join too |
| 16:31 | Lachy | votes McDonalds :-) |
| 16:31 | gsnedders | takes out knife, and shows Lachy it |
| 16:32 | <Lachy> | that will be useful for cutting up my chips. Thanks |
| 16:32 | <MikeSmith> | does McDonalds have wine and/or beer? |
| 16:32 | <Lachy> | only in Germany, I think |
| 16:32 | <gsnedders> | nein! |
| 16:32 | <annevk4> | Lachy can go out on his own |
| 16:36 | <gsnedders> | Oh well, I'll lurk around with you guys :P |
| 16:51 | <MikeSmith> | so let's plan to meet at 7 in the lobby |
| 16:54 | <annevk4> | k |
| 16:59 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: dinner group leaving the lobby at 19:00? |
| 17:00 | <hsivonen> | I'll go to my hotel and come back for 19:00 |
| 17:04 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: yeah |
| 18:06 | <Philip`> | The page navigation on the BBC iPlayer is rather odd if you don't have CSS |
| 18:06 | <Philip`> | It uses an <ol> so it looks like "1. Previous" / "2. 1" / "3. 2" / "4. 3" / "5. 4" / "6. Next" |
| 19:44 | <zcorpan> | i just learned that <!doctype html> doesn't work with asp.net 3.5 |
| 19:45 | <zcorpan> | but the xslt-compat doctype works |
| 19:47 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: here authors have to choose between the xslt-compat doctype and violating a "should not", and using something else (e.g. xhtml transitional) |
| 22:25 | <jcranmer> | g'morning, roc |
| 22:25 | <roc> | hi |
| 23:51 | <roc> | this game is fun |
| 23:52 | <roc> | Microsoft pretends to have a coherent position on Web fonts, and we pretend to be finding out what it is |
| 23:52 | <jcranmer> | more changes? |
| 23:57 | <olliej> | roc: did you see this thread https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2008-October/005442.html ? |