| 07:32 | <BenMillard> | I've finished analysing the <q> collection Philip` gathered: http://projectcerbera.com/web/study/2008/quotes#pt |
| 07:35 | <BenMillard> | I e-mailed the list with my findings: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Nov/0011.html |
| 07:52 | <BenMillard> | I also reviewed the implementability of internationalised automatic quote mark generation on <q> in relation to what HTML4 says and what HTML5 could say: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Nov/0012.html |
| 07:52 | <BenMillard> | basically, the feature seems far more trouble than it's worth |
| 07:53 | <BenMillard> | hmm, despite proofreading and revising those 2 messages several times over the past week there are still some bad typos :( |
| 09:54 | <yecril71> | Why should interruptions be more problematic for accessibility than any other part of speech? |
| 09:59 | <yecril71> | If you want to mark up content for consistently and flexibly, |
| 09:59 | <yecril71> | there are other open standards that achieve them. |
| 10:00 | <yecril71> | However, you probably need a strong scientific background |
| 10:00 | <yecril71> | and several months of preparation to use them correctly. |
| 10:00 | <yecril71> | Otherwise your document will turn out into a big blob of nonsense markup. |
| 10:02 | <yecril71> | HTML should be simple enough for a high school child to use. |
| 10:04 | <yecril71> | An abbreviation is no more a reference than any word is. |
| 10:04 | <hsivonen> | yecril71: are you referring to a particular email message? |
| 10:04 | <yecril71> | Re: [whatwg] --- |
| 10:05 | <yecril71> | Every word, as it is written, is a reference to a notion, |
| 10:05 | <yecril71> | except where it is used obliquely, as a reference to itself. |
| 10:05 | <yecril71> | Those cases, however, are rare. |
| 10:07 | <yecril71> | So a reference is too broad a term to name an element. |
| 10:09 | <yecril71> | Sup and sub are not style elements. |
| 10:10 | <yecril71> | Text browsers cannot just render them transparently with no harm to the meaning. |
| 10:10 | <yecril71> | PRE is not a style element because it alters the parsing mode. |
| 10:11 | <yecril71> | VAR is not the same as function; |
| 10:12 | <yecril71> | you can have <VAR >f</VAR > and <I >f</I > with different meanings. |
| 10:12 | <yecril71> | I mean, both are functions, |
| 10:12 | <yecril71> | but the second refers to a well-known function |
| 10:13 | <yecril71> | and the first is sort of local, incidental. |
| 10:13 | <hsivonen> | yecril71: does a reader appreciate the distinction? |
| 10:14 | <yecril71> | I think so; it is better to know what kind of a symbol is presented. |
| 10:14 | <yecril71> | Symbols are hard to read and any clues are welcome. |
| 10:15 | <yecril71> | (That is why code editors mark various elements with different colours). |
| 10:15 | <hsivonen> | I'd argue that one's literary expression sucks if it is so ambiguous that it wouldn't work on paper and the reader needs to inspect markup |
| 10:16 | <yecril71> | Who says it would not work on paper? |
| 10:16 | <hsivonen> | (assuming that usually sin() and f() aren't presented in different colors) |
| 10:16 | <yecril71> | But they are presented in different typefaces. |
| 10:17 | <hsivonen> | sin is often presented without italics, so your <i> example above doesn't apply |
| 10:17 | <hsivonen> | bad example from me |
| 10:17 | <yecril71> | (Actually, the ISO standard recomments well-known symbols to be typeset upright). |
| 10:17 | <yecril71> | recommends. |
| 10:17 | <hsivonen> | the ISO standard? |
| 10:18 | <yecril71> | The italic typeface could be styled out in a context where only symbols appear. |
| 10:18 | <yecril71> | There is an ISO standard for typesetting scientific publications. |
| 10:18 | <yecril71> | And they say well-known objects should be upright. |
| 10:19 | <yecril71> | It is rarely used because the TeX community did not fully embrace it. |
| 10:20 | <hsivonen> | :-) |
| 10:24 | <yecril71> | The case of symbols inserted into running text is a bit different. |
| 10:25 | <yecril71> | I think it would be acceptable to leave them in italics |
| 10:25 | <yecril71> | if typeface distinction is not available. |
| 10:27 | <yecril71> | I agree documents should be readable without styling; |
| 10:27 | <yecril71> | they are just easier to read with proper styling than without. |
| 10:41 | <yecril71> | One example of something unreadable without styling |
| 10:41 | <yecril71> | is 14<SUP ><U >25</U ></SUP > |
| 10:41 | <yecril71> | which in Polish means 2:15 PM. |
| 10:43 | <yecril71> | This probably should be coded as |
| 10:44 | <yecril71> | <time ><hrs >14</hrs ><sep >:</sep ><mins >25</mins ></time > |
| 10:45 | <yecril71> | where sep is display:none. |
| 10:49 | <yecril71> | End body tag otherwise means nothing when there is no body element open. |
| 10:56 | <yecril71> | Any markup language can be used to describe how content is tagged. |
| 10:57 | <yecril71> | The "HT" in "HTML" means it is text with hyperlinks for easy publishing on the Web. |
| 10:57 | <yecril71> | There are other markup schemes to do scientific research on text corpora. |
| 10:58 | <yecril71> | Not everything must be coded in HTML. |
| 11:36 | <yecril71> | An attribute is a bad choice for a title because attributes are not rendered. |
| 11:36 | <yecril71> | At least should not be. |
| 12:23 | <Lachy> | Oh No! Microsoft have discontinued Windows 3.x. http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/11/05/0257202&from=rss |
| 12:26 | <jcranmer> | Lachy: did you just join the 21st century? |
| 12:26 | hsivonen | wonders what it feels like to maintain a severely legacy piece of software knowing what the state of the art is |
| 12:40 | <operairc> | hello |
| 12:42 | <Lachy> | operairc, hi |
| 14:14 | <Lachy> | any suggestions for what font I should use in my presentation slides? It has to be done in Powerpoint and so the font has to be available on Windows |
| 14:21 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: Arial in that cas |
| 14:21 | <hsivonen> | e |
| 14:21 | <Lachy> | I wanted to avoid Arial |
| 14:22 | <hsivonen> | (alternatively, you could do your thing in Keynote, export to a bunch of TIFF, drag&drop the TIFF set onto a blank Keynote presentation to import them back and then export the resulting bitmap slides to PowerPoint) |
| 14:22 | <Philip`> | What version of Windows? |
| 14:22 | <Lachy> | I've chosen Book Antiqua for now |
| 14:22 | <Philip`> | (Vista has nicer fonts) |
| 14:22 | <Lachy> | I only have XP available |
| 14:23 | <Philip`> | Ah |
| 14:23 | <Lachy> | and I think the machines at the conference have XP too |
| 14:23 | <Philip`> | Comic Sans is clearly the sensible choice |
| 14:23 | <Lachy> | true, but I figured that's what everyone else would be using and wanted to be different |
| 14:24 | <Philip`> | You could use italic Comic Sans instead |
| 14:25 | <Lachy> | exporting keynote is possible. But I also have to create it with OperaShow to keep chaals happy. I'm supposed to present using OperaShow if possible, but I still need to have the powerpoint as a backup |
| 14:25 | <hsivonen> | wow. Windows has crazy bugs. now I need to sniff if my Python script runs on Windows... |
| 14:26 | <hsivonen> | one needs to stuff an extra quote into the argument of os.system() so that Windows can swallow the quote and then see the right command |
| 14:27 | <Lachy> | This is the panel I'm on, in which I need to give a 15 min presentation on HTML5. http://www.pubcon.com/sessions.cgi?action=view&record=150 |
| 14:35 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: Do you really have to use os.system() and rely on the system shell, rather than using the subprocess module or something? |
| 14:37 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: I have no idea. os.system has served me well on OS X and Ubuntu |
| 14:39 | <Philip`> | http://docs.python.org/library/os.html#os.system suggests subprocess |
| 14:39 | <Philip`> | which should be more reliable since it doesn't use the shell, so there aren't all the problems of quoting and escaping |
| 14:41 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: that looks like more work than stuffing an extra quote in there |
| 14:44 | <hsivonen> | what should I use on windows in place of os.symlink? |
| 14:45 | <Philip`> | Pre-Vista doesn't have anything equivalent to symlinks, so you'd need to reconsider your problem from a higher level |
| 14:45 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: do you read the WHATWG implemontors list? |
| 14:46 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: yes |
| 14:47 | <zcorpan> | though you had already replied when i saw the email |
| 14:47 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: OK. then I don't try to reply to the reply to my reply. |
| 14:50 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: what about shortcuts? if I create shortcuts to make a directory appear in multiple places, will Python shutil follow shortcuts? |
| 14:51 | <hsivonen> | and will Java file IO follow shortcuts in paths? |
| 14:51 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: No (unless shutil is really crazy, which I don't think it is) - shortcuts are purely an Explorer thing, not a kernel or filesystem thing |
| 14:52 | <hsivonen> | hmm. that's not cool |
| 14:52 | <Philip`> | so the Win32 API doesn't understand shortcuts, and just treats them like plain files (which is all they are) |
| 14:53 | <hsivonen> | I guess I need to write a Python function that copies instead of symlinking on Windows |
| 14:53 | <hsivonen> | sigh |
| 14:53 | <Philip`> | (Pre-Vista NTFS does have junction points, which are kind of like symlinks to directories, but they're pretty obscure and nobody uses them) |
| 14:53 | <jcranmer> | /nick jcranmer|away |
| 15:02 | <Hixie> | junction points are directory hard links |
| 15:02 | <Hixie> | (and mount points) |
| 15:03 | <Philip`> | They're not hard links in the Unixy sense, i.e. just a different name for the same node on disk - there's a distinction between the original directory and the junction points pointing to it |
| 15:04 | <Hixie> | oh? |
| 15:04 | <Hixie> | yeah i guess so |
| 15:05 | <Hixie> | ntfs also has multiple streams per file, which as far as i can tell is used exclusively by malware authors |
| 15:05 | <Philip`> | e.g. Wikipedia says "The dir command in Windows 2000 or later recognizes junction points, displaying <JUNCTION> instead of <DIR> in directory listings" |
| 15:05 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 15:06 | <Philip`> | Maybe that's because anyone other than malware authors wants to avoid getting support calls from users with FAT filesystems :-) |
| 15:07 | <othermaciej> | hard links in the Unixy sense *are* different names for the same node on disk |
| 15:07 | <othermaciej> | whereas symlinks are different names for a path in the filesystem |
| 15:08 | <othermaciej> | it may be that junction points are not exactly like either |
| 15:08 | <Philip`> | othermaciej: That's what I meant about hard links |
| 15:08 | <othermaciej> | I see |
| 15:08 | <Philip`> | so I agree with you :-) |
| 15:09 | <othermaciej> | are junction points references to the filesystem object directly, or to a path? |
| 15:10 | <othermaciej> | to me that's the biggest difference between symlinks and hardlinks, more so than being indistinguishable from the original |
| 15:10 | <Philip`> | I guess the issue there is: if you move the pointed-at directory, does the junction point still point at it? |
| 15:10 | <Hixie> | junction points are basically mount points for other paths, iirc |
| 15:11 | <Hixie> | but what do i know |
| 15:11 | <Philip`> | and I don't know the answer to that |
| 15:11 | <Hixie> | ask me an html question! |
| 15:11 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 15:14 | Philip` | can't actually think of any HTML questions :-( |
| 15:14 | <Hixie> | hah |
| 15:14 | <Hixie> | i have 1000s, it's ok |
| 15:16 | <Philip`> | Hmm, the fun fair outside my bedroom window has been playing loud music for an hour, and it's not even going to open until three hours from now |
| 15:18 | <Philip`> | (Hooray for bonfire night, where we celebrate the capture and torture and mutilation and death of a suspected terrorist) |
| 16:07 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: You still living where you were in July? |
| 16:26 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: No |
| 16:27 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Where do you live now? |
| 16:27 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Somewhere overlooking a park I guess :P |
| 16:27 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Around http://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=UTF8&ll=52.209553,0.131621&spn=0.003373,0.010085&t=h&z=17 |
| 16:29 | <Philip`> | I have a nicer view from my room than I did in July :-) |
| 16:44 | <gsnedders> | Yeah, you wouldn't see much from where you were then :) |
| 16:44 | <gsnedders> | Only 59 hours by train from Le Mans to Istabul! :P |
| 17:25 | <Hixie> | 89. |
| 17:35 | <yecril71> | What is wrong with |
| 17:35 | <yecril71> | <STRONG class="requirements" >Enter an odd number! <INPUT ></STRONG >? |
| 17:37 | <yecril71> | And consider that Hixie thinks it is right |
| 17:38 | <yecril71> | that labels do not work in Internet Explorer. |
| 17:38 | <yecril71> | Since they officially should not work, |
| 17:38 | <yecril71> | it is not a big deal that they actually do not. |
| 17:48 | <Hixie> | ? |
| 17:48 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: ? |
| 17:50 | <Hixie> | not sure what you meant |
| 17:58 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: I mean the 89 |
| 18:00 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: My statement of the 59 hours made sense :P |
| 18:02 | <Hixie> | er i meant not sure what yecril71 meant, sorry |
| 18:07 | <yecril71> | I meant labels, Internet Explorer, inputs and error messages, of course. |
| 18:08 | <yecril71> | What if we put the input inside the validation message? |
| 18:08 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: But what was your 89? |
| 18:09 | <yecril71> | My 89 was fine, thanks. |
| 18:10 | <yecril71> | I graduated from high school. |
| 21:14 | <gsnedders> | w00t |
| 21:14 | <gsnedders> | I really have made it with the latest last week post! |