| 08:12 | <hsivonen> | I wish Apple shipped a more robust file system. |
| 08:13 | <hsivonen> | here I am with a corrupt HFS+ and in the middle of a SuperDuper! and Time Machine dance |
| 08:58 | <zcorpan> | hmm i'm a bit disappointed about markp's misinformation |
| 09:02 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: in this week? |
| 09:03 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: in http://blog.whatwg.org/the-road-to-html-5-episode-1-the-section-element |
| 09:03 | <hsivonen> | I'm disappointed at Time Machine running the same brittle file system that it is backing up |
| 09:04 | <hsivonen> | I'm going to lose at least this day to hfs+ |
| 09:05 | <hsivonen> | fortunately, I've got and offsite boot disk clone from immediately before tpac |
| 09:06 | <hsivonen> | I should probably go get it in case time machine turns out to be useless |
| 09:19 | <hsivonen> | I wonder if there's any way to get feedback of waht's going on when Finder beach balls to perform force fsck on the tm disk |
| 09:21 | <zcorpan> | http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtmlmime-20081024/ is getting a bit better |
| 09:25 | <zcorpan> | "DO ensure that any CSS properties on the html element are also specified on the body element." hmm that wasn't there when i reviewed the document last time |
| 09:26 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: did you get a response to your comments? |
| 09:26 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: yes |
| 09:27 | <zcorpan> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Oct/thread.html#msg25 |
| 09:27 | <zcorpan> | though not all of my comments |
| 09:29 | <hsivonen> | more positive than the initial telecon reaction |
| 09:30 | <zcorpan> | well i was a bit harsh so that's understandable |
| 09:35 | zcorpan | wonders which browser tommy is working on |
| 09:38 | <zcorpan> | http://www.kvaleberg.com/ maybe |
| 09:41 | <pergj> | zcorpan: if you ask around in the (Opera) office, someone will know. :) |
| 09:45 | <zcorpan> | maybe |
| 09:46 | <zcorpan> | hah i didn't even look at his email address |
| 09:49 | <pergj> | There is only one name of a (former) browser vendor on our webpage, so you can probably figure it out by yourself. |
| 09:50 | <zcorpan> | openwave |
| 09:53 | <zcorpan> | "Browser |
| 09:53 | <zcorpan> | Bookmarks, enter url, history" |
| 09:53 | <zcorpan> | compelling features :) |
| 09:54 | <zcorpan> | do you use the html5 parser for application/xhtml+xml? |
| 09:55 | <pergj> | the product described on the webpage does not have much to do with the browser |
| 09:55 | <zcorpan> | is there more detailed information about the browser somewhere? |
| 09:56 | <pergj> | http://www.purplelabs.com/news-press-release-view.php?code=90 |
| 09:57 | <pergj> | at the moment we are using the html5 parser for xhtml too |
| 09:58 | <zcorpan> | do you plan to change that? |
| 09:59 | <pergj> | we should at some point, but right now there are other priorities. |
| 10:00 | <zcorpan> | hey tthorsen |
| 10:01 | <tthorsen> | Hi. I saw the irc log, but it took me some time to get XChat installed |
| 10:02 | <tthorsen> | did that mail I sent to the list make sense? |
| 10:03 | <zcorpan> | not sure if the parser change works but i noticed that none of the top 4 browsers match html5 right now |
| 10:03 | <zcorpan> | oh wait maybe firefox does |
| 10:03 | <zcorpan> | yep |
| 10:04 | <zcorpan> | did it break some site to follow html5? |
| 10:04 | <tthorsen> | Yes. http://bankrate.com |
| 10:05 | <pergj> | for this particular case Opera is the same as the spec while firefox is not |
| 10:05 | <pergj> | I meant that Opera does the same as Tommy's proposed change |
| 10:05 | <zcorpan> | oh sorry i was looking at the wrong dom viewer. firefox also doesn't match the spec |
| 10:06 | <pergj> | What Firefox does is maybe slightly better |
| 10:06 | <tthorsen> | yes. Actually they both handle my example markup identically, but if you add some cdata after "thirddiv" (but still inside "firstform") you'll see a difference |
| 10:08 | <tthorsen> | Seems firefox is able to see that the first </form> belongs to the ignored "secondform" element, whereas Opera does it pretty much like my proposed change. |
| 10:09 | <zcorpan> | the proposed change seems to match ie's rendering |
| 10:09 | <zcorpan> | (try to set a border on the form) |
| 10:10 | <zcorpan> | (the first form i.e.) |
| 10:15 | <zcorpan> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cdiv%20id%3D%22firstdiv%22%3E%0D%0A%20%20%20A%0D%0A%20%20%20%3Cdiv%20id%3D%22seconddiv%22%3E%0D%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cform%20id%3D%22firstform%22%20style%3Dborder%3Asolid%3E%0D%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cdiv%20id%3D%22thirddiv%22%20style%3Dborder%3Adotted%20red%3E%0D%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fform%3Exx%0D%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fdiv |
| 10:15 | <zcorpan> | %3Eyy%0D%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fform%3E%0D%0A%20%20%20%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0D%0A%20%20%20B%0D%0A%3C%2Fdiv%3E |
| 10:15 | <zcorpan> | (uploaded) |
| 10:16 | <zcorpan> | i think this has changed back and forth and whatever you do will break some site |
| 10:18 | <tthorsen> | well, so long as a site works in the most popular browsers, then there must be some algorithm which will work |
| 10:19 | <pergj> | At least the "original" bankrate case is working in all browsers. Tommy's extended case is a different matter though. |
| 10:19 | <zcorpan> | btw did you implement the svg/mathml parts in the html5 parser? |
| 10:20 | <pergj> | no |
| 10:20 | <zcorpan> | ok |
| 10:20 | <pergj> | we never supported mathml or inline svg |
| 10:25 | <zcorpan> | btw let me know if web dom core is of any help to you |
| 10:28 | <pergj> | ok. At the moment our DOM implementation has not caused us as much pain as our old handling of broken pages. :) |
| 10:29 | <zcorpan> | makes sense :) |
| 11:03 | <virtuelv> | hmph |
| 11:04 | <virtuelv> | the single-document html5 spec is way too big, and the multipage version doesn't allow me to glance over an element index, or IDL defined by the spec |
| 11:16 | <Philip`> | virtuelv: You need a better browser, so it can handle the single page version with no problems |
| 11:16 | <Philip`> | virtuelv: Does the (multipage) table of contents not work as a rough index of elements? |
| 11:47 | <virtuelv> | Philip`: not when you're looking for something like showNotification or showModalDialog |
| 11:52 | <Philip`> | virtuelv: Ah, right |
| 11:53 | <Philip`> | If you can't use a decent browser, you could perhaps just download the HTML and use grep |
| 11:53 | <Philip`> | but that's not a very elegant solution :-( |
| 11:54 | <Philip`> | If the multipage version could include some extra index pages, what kind of thing would be most useful? |
| 11:54 | <Philip`> | (like, maybe a list of all the linked terms in the whole document? or a concatenation of all the IDL blocks? or something like that?) |
| 11:56 | <virtuelv> | I *have* a decent browser |
| 12:06 | <Philip`> | Then you should be able to handle the single page version with no problems :-) |
| 12:38 | <hsivonen> | hmm. apparently even Time Capsule wouldn't have avoided the problem I have |
| 12:40 | <hsivonen> | Time Capsule exposes a sparse image instead of a file system access protocol, so presumably the kernel of the failing system that is being backed up manages the backup file system and can break it |
| 12:42 | <hsivonen> | I want a Time Capsule where the backup file system isn't managed by the computer whose failure is the threat that TC is supposed to insure against |
| 13:24 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, what happened to your file system? |
| 13:44 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: You want two computers and a network and rsync |
| 14:07 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: a windowserver malfunction lead to an unclean reboot with ctrl-cmd-power which apparently didn't flush file systems properly and corrupted both the boot and TM file systems |
| 14:08 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: rather, I want my file systems to be robust and isolated from the os x kernel |
| 14:08 | <hsivonen> | a raid nas with zfs internally and an nfs export would be great |
| 14:09 | <Philip`> | But you also want it to be cheap and easy to set up? :-) |
| 14:09 | <hsivonen> | of course |
| 14:09 | <hsivonen> | The Time Capsule form factor would be nice |
| 14:48 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: id and hidden are in the wrong order in the list of global attributes |
| 14:51 | zcorpan | updated http://simon.html5.org/html5-elements |
| 15:04 | <Dashiva> | Is there a specific term for all those crazy words Dmitry keeps coming up with? |
| 15:04 | <Dashiva> | Sament and bament and all that |
| 15:05 | <Dashiva> | Taking the start of the first word and the end of the last word |
| 15:07 | <yecril71> | Presenting a confirmation dialogue box before the file selection dialogue box is just silly. |
| 15:07 | <yecril71> | What would the text be? |
| 15:08 | <yecril71> | "The following dialogue will allow you to choose a file from your local storage |
| 15:08 | <yecril71> | that the browser will be able to upload. |
| 15:08 | <Lachy> | I couldn't figure out what "Bament" was supposed to mean. |
| 15:09 | <yecril71> | Do you really want to do this?" |
| 15:09 | <yecril71> | LOL |
| 15:10 | <Dashiva> | Lachy: Apparently there's a "Baribute" too |
| 15:10 | <zcorpan> | Dashiva: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portmanteau_word ? |
| 15:11 | <Lachy> | hah |
| 15:12 | <Dashiva> | I can understand wanting to optimize for smaller documents, but optimizing for a smaller spec by making terms into nonsense... |
| 15:12 | <Lachy> | I wish someone would respond to Dmitry and explain to him why he's not getting a response to his absurd budget request |
| 15:12 | <Philip`> | I wish nobody would respond to Dmitry |
| 15:13 | <Lachy> | I meant off-list |
| 15:13 | <Lachy> | I can't do it cause he's on my do-not-respond list |
| 15:13 | <zcorpan> | he's on my do-not-read list |
| 15:14 | <Lachy> | some of his emails have entertainment value, like the first 3 lines of the budget request |
| 15:14 | <Lachy> | I didn't read beyond that |
| 15:14 | <yecril71> | I think Portugal is an interesting country to live in. |
| 15:15 | <yecril71> | Computers tend to come to people in Portugal by themselves. |
| 15:15 | <Lachy> | yecril71, what? |
| 15:15 | <yecril71> | Moreover, they come equipped with Microsoft XP in English. |
| 15:15 | <Lachy> | are your comments related to something in particular? |
| 15:15 | <yecril71> | And the poor Portuguese people cannot do anything with them. |
| 15:16 | <yecril71> | My comments are related to the file submission browse button label. |
| 15:16 | <yecril71> | I am also interested how the Catalan people would react to a label in Catalan |
| 15:16 | <yecril71> | on a Spanish page. |
| 15:17 | <Philip`> | According to his 209-slide presentation, "Sament" = "SAg eleMENT" |
| 15:17 | <Philip`> | and "Sag" = "Sent tAG" |
| 15:17 | <Philip`> | I'm guessing that "Bament" comes from "Browser tag element", but the etymology doesn't seem to be documented here |
| 15:18 | <Philip`> | and I can't guess what Kament is |
| 15:19 | <yecril71> | Having it the other way round makes them very uneasy. |
| 15:22 | <yecril71> | I must say I am not very surprised. |
| 15:24 | <yecril71> | I like the idea of having semantics separate from structure very much. |
| 15:25 | <yecril71> | That would e.g. allow declaring the title attribute based on a set of rules. |
| 15:26 | <yecril71> | Repeating it for every item I want to describe is very inefficient and/or troublesome. |
| 15:27 | <yecril71> | From the point of view of HTML, it would be LINK[rel=semantics] |
| 15:27 | <yecril71> | and perhaps SCRIPT[type="text/xml"], or perhaps "text/something+xml". |
| 15:28 | <yecril71> | Where the LINK target can be a bookmark set on the SCRIPT. |
| 15:29 | <yecril71> | Of course, it is not clear that XML would be the medium for semantical information. |
| 15:29 | <yecril71> | But I think it can be. |
| 15:30 | <yecril71> | The big question is, what semantic information should be put there. |
| 15:30 | <yecril71> | And that depends on the author�s anticipation of what the user agents will be able to do with this information. |
| 15:34 | <zcorpan> | does ie do something with <script type="text/xml-script">? |
| 15:35 | <yecril71> | I do not think so; "text/xml" is recognized. |
| 15:35 | <zcorpan> | what does it do with text/xml? |
| 15:35 | <yecril71> | What is "text/xml-script" for? |
| 15:35 | <zcorpan> | don't know but it's used all over the place |
| 15:35 | <yecril71> | It makes an XML data island, available through |
| 15:35 | <zcorpan> | ah |
| 15:36 | <yecril71> | document.getElementByID("xmlscript").xml |
| 15:37 | <yecril71> | Where is "text/xml-script" used? |
| 15:38 | <zcorpan> | http://www.google.com/codesearch?q=text%2Fxml-script&hl=en&btnG=Search+Code |
| 15:38 | <yecril71> | (Dangerous bend: an external script of type "text/xml" fails to load |
| 15:38 | <yecril71> | if it has an XML PI with encoding) |
| 15:40 | <yecril71> | Your search shows that it is not for Internet Explorer, |
| 15:40 | <yecril71> | it is for Internet Information Server. |
| 15:41 | <zcorpan> | ok |
| 15:45 | <Philip`> | <script type=text/xml> and <script language=xml> both do the funky XML thing in IE |
| 15:45 | <Philip`> | (unlike (text/)xml-script) |
| 15:45 | <Philip`> | at least in IE6 |
| 15:53 | <yecril71> | except that script[language=xml] means that handlers to events dispatched to the script |
| 15:53 | <yecril71> | should be processed by the XML interpreter. |
| 15:54 | <yecril71> | I am unable to find any usage for this. |
| 15:57 | <Philip`> | I'm not quite sure what you mean |
| 15:59 | <Philip`> | I'd assume <script type=text/xml>/<script language=xml> are equivalent in the same way that <script type=text/vbscript>/<script language=vbscript> are equivalent |
| 16:07 | <yecril71> | Exactly in the same way. |
| 16:08 | <yecril71> | SCRIPT[language=vbscript] means that |
| 16:08 | <yecril71> | handlers to events dispatched to the script |
| 16:08 | <yecril71> | should be processed by Visual Basic Scripting edition. |
| 16:09 | <yecril71> | Example: <script type="text/javascript" language="vbscript" onload="MSGBOX "Loaded",, "Info"" > |
| 16:10 | <yecril71> | Rather funny, and probably unsupported. |
| 16:16 | <Philip`> | Ah, that's odd - it looks like <script language> has two totally separate meanings |
| 16:17 | <Philip`> | (It sets the language of the loaded script, like what <script type> does; but it also sets the language for on* event handlers, like it does on every other element) |
| 16:19 | <Hixie> | language exists on other elements? |
| 16:20 | <Philip`> | Yes |
| 16:20 | <Philip`> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cbody%20onload%3D%22alert%20'hello%20world'%22%20language%3D%22vbscript%22%3E |
| 16:20 | <Philip`> | says 'hello world' in IE6 |
| 16:20 | <Philip`> | (and doesn't if you remove the language) |
| 16:21 | <Philip`> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Ca%20href%3D%23%20onclick%3D%22alert%20'hello%20world'%22%20language%3Dvbscript%3Etest%3Ca%3E too |
| 16:21 | <yecril71> | I think Internet Explorer infers script type from script language. |
| 16:22 | <yecril71> | It is an extension since a script without a type does nothing |
| 16:22 | <yecril71> | (unless the type is provided by the Web server that serves the script |
| 16:22 | <yecril71> | as an external resource) |
| 16:23 | <Philip`> | I don't think that's true - it defaults to JScript if nothing is specified |
| 16:23 | <Philip`> | (e.g. if you use <script src=foo> and foo is sent as text/plain) |
| 16:23 | <yecril71> | Right, taking that back. |
| 16:24 | <yecril71> | In this case, it is a nonconforming extension. |
| 16:26 | <yecril71> | Philip`, how did you get Visual basic to understand ticks as string delimiters? |
| 16:28 | <Philip`> | yecril71: Uh, that's a good question |
| 16:29 | <Philip`> | I think the answer is that IE is crazy |
| 16:29 | <yecril71> | Sorta. |
| 16:29 | <Philip`> | If I write <body onload="alert '1'" language=vbscript><script language=vbscript>alert '2'</script> then it alerts "" and then "1" |
| 16:30 | <Philip`> | i.e. in the <script> it treats ' as a comment character, so it's an empty alert call |
| 16:30 | <Philip`> | where in the onload attribute, ' is just a quote character |
| 16:30 | <Philip`> | s/where/whereas/ |
| 16:31 | <Philip`> | so the basic syntax of the VBScript language depends on the context in which it's used |
| 16:31 | <Philip`> | which is clearly insane |
| 16:59 | <Hixie> | vbscript is insane, yes |
| 20:00 | <aaronlev> | hsivonen: hi |
| 20:01 | <hsivonen> | aaronlev: hi |
| 20:01 | <aaronlev> | hsivonen: have you seen silvia's requirements doc for video a11y? |
| 20:01 | <hsivonen> | aaronlev: from before TPAC or after? |
| 20:01 | <hsivonen> | I have seen one from before |
| 20:01 | <hsivonen> | I haven't after |
| 20:02 | <aaronlev> | she just sent it out a couple days ago, https://wiki.mozilla.org/Accessibility/Video_a11y_requirements |
| 20:02 | <aaronlev> | was wondering what you thought of it |
| 20:02 | <hsivonen> | I'll review it. |
| 20:02 | hsivonen | has lost the whole day recovering from HFS+ damage |
| 20:03 | <aaronlev> | ouch |