| 08:45 | <annevk> | Happy b-day Hixie, if it indeed is today :) |
| 08:45 | <Hixie> | thanks anne and everyone |
| 08:51 | <olliej> | ooh, happy being old day Hixie !! |
| 08:51 | <olliej> | :D |
| 08:53 | <nessy> | happy birthday, Hixie! |
| 08:55 | <Hixie> | thanks :-) |
| 09:10 | <annevk> | "Unbiased journalism on HTML5 & WHAT WG since September 2008" meh, lastweekinhtml5 stole the standardssuck tagline |
| 09:11 | <Hixie> | shocking |
| 09:11 | <gavin> | "journalism"? |
| 09:11 | <annevk> | indeed :p |
| 09:13 | <ap> | Happy birthday Hixie! |
| 09:13 | <ap> | Do you have some time for an appcache question? |
| 09:13 | <Hixie> | thanks :-) |
| 09:14 | <Hixie> | sure |
| 09:14 | <ap> | Hixie: I'm wondering about applicationCache.update() - is it by design that it usually does nothing, because the manifest is in browser's http cache? |
| 09:15 | <ap> | Hixie: the spec doesn't seem to say that it should be reloaded from server, and neither Gecko nor WebKit do that |
| 09:17 | <ap> | Hixie: I'd also appreciate some info about the intended behavior for reloading a page whose main resource is in an application cache - it seems that once a manifest attribute is added to an HTML, there is no way to undo that, other than resetting appcache via browser preferences |
| 09:18 | <Hixie> | the HTTP caching semantics should be honoured, yes, but i expect most people will set no-cache headers on manifests |
| 09:19 | <Hixie> | to un-cache a cached page, just make sure the manifest returns 410 |
| 09:19 | <Hixie> | (or 404) |
| 09:20 | <Hixie> | see step 5 of The Algorithm |
| 09:21 | <ap> | Hixie: a-ha! thanks, that helps |
| 09:22 | <ap> | Hixie: I think this is also an answer to people saying that they need manifests served with a wrong Content-Type to be honored - they need to send no-cache for reasonable behavior, and if they can do that, they can also send a correct Content-Type |
| 09:25 | <Hixie> | we don't need an answer to those requests other than "http requires us to do that" :-) |
| 09:25 | <Hixie> | maybe we shouldn't honour the cache though |
| 09:28 | <ap> | Hixie: when updating a cache, we probably need to reload all resources, not just the manifest |
| 09:29 | <Hixie> | defeating the http caching semantics for all resources is going to such massively given how often teh manifest is checked |
| 09:29 | <Hixie> | suck |
| 09:29 | <ap> | Hixie: well, other resources only need to be reloaded if the manifest changed |
| 09:30 | <ap> | Hixie: they can always stick an app version in a comment to force a full update |
| 09:30 | <Hixie> | oh true, the manifest being the same is just treated as there being nothing to do |
| 10:16 | <Hixie> | do people think i should make "heading content" a kind of "flow content" by definition, or should i make all the elements that are "phrasing content" also be "flow content" explicitly? |
| 10:17 | <Hixie> | i.e. is it better to be explicit about what is flow content, or is it better to have a diagram somewhere that shows how the various kinds of content are subsets of each other? |
| 10:27 | <Lachy> | Hixie, do both |
| 10:29 | <Hixie> | but that's more work! |
| 10:44 | <Hixie> | hm, should <body> be sectioning content or sectioning root? |
| 10:45 | <Hixie> | (or does it not make a difference) |
| 10:46 | <Lachy> | Hixie, make it sectioning root |
| 10:46 | <Hixie> | ok |
| 10:47 | <Hixie> | sweet, that makes sectioning content elements all flow content now too |
| 11:27 | <Hixie> | lachy: how's http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#kinds-of-content |
| 11:33 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Happy Hixieday! :) |
| 11:33 | <Hixie> | thanks :-) |
| 11:34 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: make heading content flow content, and IMO it's better to have a diagram somewhere, and body should be a sectioning root |
| 11:34 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: how's http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#kinds-of-content ? |
| 11:35 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: kinda odd with the overlapping areas, but I can't see anyway to get rid of them |
| 11:35 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: And SVG > PNG :P |
| 11:36 | <gsnedders> | (overlapping as in things like the phrasing content) |
| 11:36 | <gsnedders> | Can anyone pass me any water? |
| 11:36 | <Hixie> | feel free to provide a better diagram :-) |
| 11:37 | <Hixie> | I don't have a nice SVG editor |
| 11:37 | <gsnedders> | Write it by hand :P |
| 11:37 | gsnedders | has never found any SVG editor that actually produces sane markup |
| 11:48 | gsnedders | realizes he still hasn't started on his computing project implementation, though he has started on English notes,. |
| 11:48 | <gsnedders> | Meh. |
| 11:48 | <gsnedders> | Fun "holidays". |
| 12:35 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Why do you want an SVG editor that produces sane markup? |
| 12:35 | <Philip`> | Just treat the output as an opaque blob of data, the same as if it were PNG |
| 12:39 | gsnedders | shrugs |
| 15:41 | <annevk> | so to learn SVG I thought of doing that HTML5 content model diagram in SVG, how do you make an oval shape? |
| 15:42 | <annevk> | nm |
| 15:42 | <annevk> | I should RTFM |
| 15:42 | <annevk> | well, RTFS |
| 15:52 | <annevk> | sort of annoying to do this by hand as everything has to be positioned absolutely more or less |
| 15:53 | <annevk> | I suppose I could create <g> containers for some bits, but that only helps slightly |
| 15:59 | <annevk> | so much for <g> elements, they don't have x/y or cx/cy attributes |
| 15:59 | <annevk> | at least, I think they don't |
| 15:59 | <annevk> | I guess you can fake it using a translate... |
| 16:00 | <annevk> | (transform="translate(x,y)" works) |
| 16:15 | <annevk> | http://annevankesteren.nl/2008/content-venn-svg-sketch |
| 16:15 | <annevk> | (I stopped because it was boring) |
| 16:17 | <annevk> | (bit annoying that there's still no user unit in CSS so you have to fake it using px...) |
| 16:19 | <karlcow> | annevk: I have an idea for the graph :) just have to find the energy, will to do it :) not sure for now |
| 16:25 | <annevk> | k, cool |
| 16:25 | <annevk> | I wasn't actually thinking of improving it, just making an SVG version |
| 16:26 | <Philip`> | Just use Inkscape :-) |
| 16:27 | <annevk> | <svg:image xlink:href="..."/> |
| 19:14 | <annevk> | wow, http://www.w3.org/mid/495670E0.5000700⊙gc is great |
| 21:18 | <jgraham> | Hixie: Happy Birthday |
| 21:18 | jgraham | has been away from the computer all day |
| 21:36 | <jgraham> | Wow, lastweekinhtml5 has become dull recently |
| 21:37 | Philip` | wonders why more people have commented today on Hixie's birthday than commented a couple of days ago on Santa Claus's birthday |
| 21:37 | <jgraham> | Philip`: I thought it was regulation if you wanted to be in the cult of Hixie |
| 21:38 | <jgraham> | Did I miss a memo? |
| 21:39 | <jgraham> | Also today, after I finally bought some presents to wrap, I discovered that the amin problem with wrapping is not that using the paper efficiently is NP hard because that can be circumvented by using paper inefficiently |
| 21:39 | <jgraham> | The main problem is that it requires hand eye cooridination to do all the sellotaping |
| 21:40 | Philip` | discovers that http://www.google.com/search?q=christmas puts some little candy-cane icons next to the side adverts |
| 21:41 | jgraham | wonders why Philip` was googling for Christmas |
| 21:42 | <Philip`> | I wasn't, I was Googling for Santa and found that it has icons for several Christmas-related search queries |
| 21:43 | jgraham | wonders why Philip` was googling for Santa |
| 21:44 | <Philip`> | To see the Wikipedia page about him, in a (failed) attempt to verify the date of his birthday |
| 22:03 | jgraham | would like to complain that Google translate doesn't remember the langauge you last chose but instead seems to always default to Spanish-English which shows a remarkable ameri-centricism in a tool designed to reduce cultural barriers |
| 22:06 | <Lachy> | jgraham, bookmark this URL to make it remember which languages you want. http://www.google.com/translate_t?sl=no&tl=en |
| 22:06 | <Lachy> | just change the "no" to whatever langauge you need |
| 22:08 | <jgraham> | Lachy: Yeah I gues that would work. It really shouldn't be necessary though... |
| 22:10 | <jgraham> | Thanks |
| 22:15 | Philip` | tries to install the seemingly straightforward Net::Amazon::S3 module, and is surprised to discover that it requires a gazillion dependencies |
| 22:15 | <Philip`> | including the oddly named Moose::Cookbook |
| 22:16 | <Lachy> | jgraham, I agree it's annoying. But that's the only solution I've found that was simple to set up |
| 22:16 | <Lachy> | you could also try creating a user JS that automatically changes it for you whenever you visit the page |
| 22:20 | <jgraham> | Lachy: I was trying the "complain in a random unrelated IRC channel in the hope that someone would say 'you idiot you can fix it like this or communicate the problem to Google like that' solution |
| 22:20 | <jgraham> | s/t'/t'" |
| 22:47 | <heycam`> | annevk, yeah relative layout in svg would be nice to have. hopefully i get some time this year to put together a spec (and implementation) for it. |
| 23:24 | <Hixie> | so, what's everyone up to on this great day |
| 23:25 | Hixie | is listening to the Pinafore soundtrack while replying to crazy whatwg e-mails |
| 23:25 | Philip` | is playing TrackMania |
| 23:28 | heycam` | is reading the java vm spec |
| 23:29 | nessy | is preparing to head off for a wedding |
| 23:29 | nessy | would much prefer some video hacking :) |
| 23:32 | Philip` | is also trying to write some scripts to control an EC2 server, and wondering if it's considered murder or suicide when you program something to terminate itself |
| 23:32 | annevk | is off to party |
| 23:33 | jgraham | spent all day buying Christmas presents, having not bothered before Christmas |
| 23:34 | <jgraham> | Which sounds much more boring than what anyone else has been doing |
| 23:54 | Hixie | pages through stream-of-consciousness e-mails from Calogero |