| 02:42 | <heycam> | Hixie, typo in most recent commit (you have "it's" instead of "its") |
| 02:44 | <Hixie> | where is it? |
| 02:44 | <Hixie> | i don't recall what the last commit was :-) |
| 02:45 | <heycam> | in the Obsolete features / Conformance checkers section |
| 02:48 | <heycam> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2008Dec/0121.html |
| 02:49 | heycam | afk for a bit |
| 02:56 | <Philip`> | "The presence of a profile attribute on the head element, if it's value is ..." |
| 03:01 | <Hixie> | i fixed it as soon as heycam said "in the Obsolete features / Conformance checkers section" :-) |
| 09:23 | <Hixie> | what does one call a statement that doesn't modify something? as opposed to a statement that _does_ modify something |
| 09:25 | <heycam> | idempotent? |
| 09:26 | <heycam> | referentially transparent? |
| 09:26 | <Hixie> | idempotent statements can still change things, they are just guaranteed to not cause further changes if executed again |
| 09:26 | <Hixie> | referentially transparent might be it... |
| 09:26 | <heycam> | ah yes |
| 09:27 | <heycam> | side-effectless |
| 09:27 | heycam | cooks |
| 09:28 | <Hixie> | referentially transparent seems right |
| 09:28 | <Hixie> | although... |
| 09:29 | <Hixie> | UPDATE TABLE x SET a=0 WHERE 0==1; is referentially transparent |
| 09:29 | <Hixie> | and i don't want to include that |
| 09:33 | <roc> | "pure" is sometimes used |
| 09:34 | <roc> | "pure function" maybe |
| 09:34 | <roc> | a statement that changes no state and does not return a value (i.e., is not an expression) could also be referred to as a "no-op" |
| 09:38 | <Hixie> | i used "referentially transparent" but refer only to "the statement's main verb" (this is about sql) |
| 09:38 | <Hixie> | and then i give an example to show what i mean by "main verb" |
| 09:39 | <roc> | "has no side-effects" is probably more meaningful to more people |
| 09:40 | <Hixie> | yeah i considered that but i was worried people might think that "DROP TABLE foo" had no side-effects, only one primary effect. |
| 09:41 | <roc> | seems much more likely that people will have no clue what "referentially transparent" means |
| 09:42 | <Hixie> | well that's why i include the example :-) |
| 09:43 | <Hixie> | here, what do you think of this: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#modifications-fail-if-read-only |
| 09:43 | <Hixie> | step 6.2 |
| 09:49 | <roc> | hmm |
| 09:49 | <roc> | actually "referential transparency" is not what you want here |
| 09:49 | <roc> | since, strictly speaking, functions that read mutable global state are not referentially transparent |
| 09:49 | <Hixie> | good point |
| 09:50 | <Hixie> | what's the right term? |
| 09:50 | <Hixie> | what i want is the accessor version of "immutable" |
| 09:50 | <Hixie> | i can think of half a dozen ways to describe a data structure that can't be modified, but no way to describe a function that doesn't modify a data structure |
| 09:50 | <Hixie> | go figure |
| 09:51 | <roc> | maybe "can modify the database" is as good as it gets |
| 09:52 | Hixie | removes the parenthetical |
| 09:52 | <Hixie> | i'm sure there's a word |
| 09:53 | <Hixie> | but "can't modify" will have to do for now |
| 10:22 | <MikeSmith> | wasn't mpt particularly interested in notifications? |
| 10:32 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: the gears team were the only people who said anything about implementing it as far as i know |
| 10:32 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: and they want full-on HTML notifications |
| 10:32 | <MikeSmith> | OK |
| 10:33 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: which i'm not willing to spec if they're the only implementation, because that's heavy duty stuff |
| 10:33 | <MikeSmith> | yeah, I can understand that |
| 10:34 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: If there is significant interest from them in having taking a spec for it to the Webapps WG, I would kinda hope to get word on it sooner rather than later |
| 10:35 | <MikeSmith> | Is there somebody in particular you can suggest I ping about it? |
| 10:36 | <MikeSmith> | or course it'd be great to have somebody willing to commit to being the editor for it |
| 10:36 | <Hixie> | i don't know of any interest from that team to write a spec yet |
| 10:36 | <Hixie> | but i'm trying to encourage them to work with the w3c |
| 10:37 | <Hixie> | the thing is there's no point having a spec if there's only one company interested in it |
| 10:37 | <Hixie> | because once the other vendors start getting interested, they'll want to change it |
| 10:37 | <MikeSmith> | yep |
| 10:40 | <MikeSmith> | I think Andrei's work on the Geolocation draft has proven that when there is interest among multiple vendors, work on standard can get done relatively quickly and successfully |
| 10:40 | <MikeSmith> | with multiple implementations |
| 10:49 | <yecril71> | Modifying the fingerprint on the advertising site would only disrupt the site. |
| 10:50 | <yecril71> | It would not cause the downloaders to download the trojan � since the original file has not been modified. |
| 10:51 | <Hixie> | yecril71: just change the link to point to the trojan on some other site. or upload the trojan straight to that site. or do both. |
| 10:52 | <yecril71> | That would be easy to recognise since the browser starts downloading from another domain. |
| 10:52 | <roc> | the problem with HTML notifications is that that makes it impossible to integrate with platform notification frameworks such as Growl or libnotification |
| 10:53 | <Hixie> | roc: yeah i'm not really a big fan of it. i've been trying to discourage them (unsuccessfully) |
| 10:56 | <yecril71> | (it seems the fingerprint could cover the URL as well) |
| 10:56 | <Hixie> | ? |
| 10:56 | <yecril71> | Oops, that is irrelevant, sorry. |
| 11:45 | <Philip`> | Hixie: Judging by http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/commit-watchers-whatwg.org/2008/001779.html , the .png file probably needs its svn:mime-type property set to something non-textual |
| 11:46 | <Hixie> | how do i change that? |
| 11:49 | <Philip`> | svn propset svn:mime-type image/png content-venn.png |
| 11:49 | <Philip`> | ... I think |
| 11:50 | <Philip`> | (Apparently anything not starting with "text/" is considered to be binary, and prevents textual merging and newline conversion and all that stuff) |
| 11:54 | <Hixie> | done |
| 11:55 | <annevk> | data:text/xml,<test xmlns=">">test</test> should this work? |
| 11:55 | <annevk> | "The attribute's normalized value MUST be either a URI reference — the namespace name identifying the namespace — or an empty string." |
| 12:01 | <annevk> | http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#fn-digest should we have something like this for password fields? |
| 12:02 | <Hixie> | what problem does it solve? |
| 12:03 | <annevk> | sending passwords more securely over the wire without having to resort to scripting aiui |
| 12:04 | <Hixie> | what does that protect against? |
| 12:05 | <annevk> | knowledge of the original string used which may be in use on other locations |
| 12:05 | <Hixie> | ah |
| 12:05 | <Hixie> | seems like SSL is a better solution to that |
| 12:06 | <annevk> | blog software etc. is not going to switch to SSL, is it? |
| 12:06 | <Hixie> | (also, if you can sniff the hash for one site, seems likely that you can sniff the hash for another site) |
| 12:06 | <Hixie> | if you're using the same password for a blog as for something which matters, you're pretty screwed anyway |
| 12:07 | <Hixie> | the other problem is that it would mean one of two things |
| 12:07 | <Hixie> | either the site has to store the actual password instead of a hash |
| 12:08 | <Hixie> | or the site has to support both legacy login and new login |
| 12:08 | <Hixie> | the former increases the risk of the site being hacked and the passwords leaked, which is a bigger risk than sniffing in practice |
| 12:08 | <Hixie> | the latter seems like an unlikely thing for sites to do |
| 12:22 | <yecril71> | If a number property cannot be coerced to an IDL number because it is too big, |
| 12:22 | <yecril71> | the property accessor returns 0. |
| 12:22 | <yecril71> | But it looks rather like NOT_SUPPORTED_ERR than 0 to me. |
| 12:23 | <yecril71> | Because the property contains a valid number, only its value is inaccessible to the script. |
| 12:28 | <heycam> | yecril71, do you have some examples/tests that show this? |
| 12:30 | <yecril71> | It is specified in 2.8. |
| 12:30 | <yecril71> | I do not know how implementations behave. |
| 12:31 | <heycam> | 2.8? |
| 12:31 | <heycam> | oh of html5? |
| 12:33 | <heycam> | hmm those algorithms in 2.4.3 Numbers don't say what to do with overflow |
| 12:34 | <heycam> | or rather, the section on reflecting dom attributes don't say that such overflows are not "successful" |
| 12:35 | heycam | → bed |
| 12:41 | <yecril71> | Numbers do not overflow in HTML5 at all. |
| 12:42 | Hixie | wonders how to define what a valid floating point number represents without resorting to the parsing algorithm |
| 12:48 | <yecril71> | A valid floating point number represents an abstract object with the following properties: |
| 12:49 | <annevk> | Hixie, ABNF! |
| 12:49 | <yecril71> | sign, value (as integer), exponent (as integer). |
| 12:49 | <Hixie> | annevk: that doesn't define what it means, only what the syntax is |
| 12:49 | <Hixie> | yecril71: that doesn't say what a particular string represents |
| 12:49 | gsnedders | notes RFC 3339 doesn't define what the string means |
| 12:50 | <yecril71> | Figuring out what a particular string represents is called parsing. |
| 12:51 | <yecril71> | Do you want to parse without resorting to the parsing algorithm? |
| 12:51 | <Hixie> | no, i want to define what a string means for authors, without them having to understand a fifteen step parsing algorithm |
| 12:52 | Hixie | does so and checks in the result |
| 12:55 | <yecril71> | Authors are expected to understand what a decimal expansion is. |
| 12:55 | <yecril71> | The exponent is a notation for multiplication. |
| 12:55 | <Hixie> | nothing in the spec actually said that until abotu 2 minutes ago |
| 12:56 | Hixie | wonders how to resolve zcorpan's feedback regarding the parsing of numbers |
| 12:56 | <Hixie> | IE's parsing algorithm is wacky |
| 12:56 | gsnedders | places bet it's saner than its HTTP parsing |
| 12:58 | <Hixie> | IE checks if the next character is [a-zA-Z] or [\192-\214] or |
| 12:58 | <Hixie> | > [\216-\246] or [\248-\501] or [\506-\535] or [\592-\680] or \902 or |
| 12:58 | <Hixie> | > [\905-\906] or \908 or [\910-\929] .... etc, and if so, drop the |
| 12:58 | <Hixie> | > attribute. |
| 12:58 | Hixie | doesn't understand what determines membership in that set |
| 12:58 | <takkaria> | gsnedders: IE's number parsing algorithm parses HTTP? :P |
| 12:58 | <gsnedders> | takkaria: :P |
| 12:58 | <gsnedders> | takkaria: I haven't even looked a number parsing in HTTP |
| 12:59 | <gsnedders> | But that description so far seems saner than parts of the HTTP behaviour |
| 13:01 | <yecril71> | I would say IE treats letters as invalid but allows symbols at the end. |
| 13:02 | <Hixie> | define "letters"? |
| 13:02 | <yecril71> | You already have. |
| 13:02 | <Hixie> | as what? |
| 13:03 | <yecril71> | [a-zA-Z] or [\192-\214] or� |
| 13:03 | <Hixie> | or what? the list above is incomplete. |
| 13:03 | <Hixie> | and i certainly don't want to list the entire unicode table with "yes" or "no" for each character. |
| 13:04 | <yecril71> | You can just refer to Unicode. |
| 13:05 | <Hixie> | ...and say what? |
| 13:06 | <yecril71> | Letters are invalid, symbols are ignored. |
| 13:06 | <Hixie> | what do you mean by "letters"? |
| 13:07 | <yecril71> | Characters used to spell words. |
| 13:07 | <Hixie> | is U+8273 a letter? |
| 13:07 | <Hixie> | or U+2874 |
| 13:07 | <Hixie> | or any other character? |
| 13:07 | <Hixie> | we need to define this precisely |
| 13:07 | <Hixie> | in a way that matches IE |
| 13:07 | <Hixie> | if we are to do this |
| 13:08 | <Hixie> | just saying "letters" is inadequate |
| 13:08 | <yecril71> | U+8273 is a letter. |
| 13:09 | <annevk> | Is "Letter" a character class in Unicode? |
| 13:09 | <yecril71> | I guess so. |
| 13:09 | <annevk> | e.g. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/20bw873z.aspx suggests Microsoft might use something like that |
| 13:10 | <Hixie> | guessing isn't really going to cut it here |
| 13:10 | <yecril71> | The meaning of punctures depends on the language. |
| 13:11 | <yecril71> | I think they should not be treated as letters. |
| 13:11 | <Hixie> | what we think isn't really relevant here |
| 13:11 | <Hixie> | if we're trying to match IE |
| 13:11 | <Hixie> | annevk: yeah that might be what they're using. i'd need to check the ranges. |
| 13:12 | <yecril71> | Note that IE supports BMP characters only. |
| 13:16 | <annevk> | http://www.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/PropList.txt code points marked L& are that class prolly |
| 13:16 | annevk | is not sure whether the list is complete, though it looks like it |
| 13:19 | <yecril71> | The list is expected to grow as new characters are identified. |
| 13:19 | annevk | whois test |
| 13:20 | <annevk> | wtf, HTTP stopped working |
| 13:20 | <annevk> | yecril71, sure |
| 13:23 | <Philip`> | Hixie: Should "-0" be a valid signed integer? |
| 13:24 | <Philip`> | Hixie: If it is, it doesn't represent the negative number represented in base ten by the string "0", it just represents zero |
| 13:24 | <Hixie> | hm |
| 13:27 | <yecril71> | How can a script detect HTTP 404 in a window it is driving? |
| 13:28 | <Hixie> | Philip`: better? |
| 13:28 | <yecril71> | responseXML is called XMLDocument in mshtml |
| 13:28 | <Hixie> | yecril71: the server knows it sent a 404, so it can put a marker in the page |
| 13:29 | <yecril71> | But the marker can be faked. |
| 13:30 | <Philip`> | Hixie: Sounds okay now |
| 13:30 | <Hixie> | if the server is faking the marker, it can fake the 404... |
| 13:30 | <Philip`> | (where "okay" means "probably about correct", as opposed to "understandable and helpful to normal people") |
| 13:30 | <yecril71> | The server cannot fake the 404. |
| 13:31 | <Hixie> | The server can fake the 404. |
| 13:31 | <yecril71> | If the server returns 404, it is genuine. |
| 13:31 | <jwalden> | <?php header("HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found"); ?> or somesuch |
| 13:31 | <Philip`> | Hixie: Valid floating point numbers don't really represent m*10^e - they represent a floating point approximation of that number |
| 13:31 | <Hixie> | heycam: wow, congratulations on your appointement in the svgwg |
| 13:32 | <Hixie> | Philip`: how do you mean? |
| 13:32 | <jwalden> | Hixie: 2, not 10 |
| 13:32 | <yecril71> | jwalden: that is still genuine. |
| 13:32 | Philip` | wonders why he is able to send messages to this channel but has not received any for the past few minutes |
| 13:32 | <jwalden> | not sure I understand "genuine" |
| 13:33 | Philip` | thus relies on krijnh's logs to allow bidirectional communication |
| 13:33 | <Hixie> | yecril71: if your point is that the server can make mistakes, then yes, but that's a bug in the server. it can just as easily make the mistake of sending back 404 for a page that it shouldn't send back a 404 for. |
| 13:33 | <Hixie> | jwalden: 5e3 is 5 x 10 ^ 3 |
| 13:33 | <Hixie> | jwalden: not 5 x 2 ^ 3 |
| 13:34 | <yecril71> | The server has an ultimate authority on the resources it serves. |
| 13:34 | <jwalden> | maybe I don't have enough context; I was assuming this was in reference to idealized floating-point numbers |
| 13:34 | <yecril71> | If it says it is not there, it is not there. |
| 13:34 | <yecril71> | It is like immaculate conception. |
| 13:35 | <yecril71> | God cannot lie, and the server cannot fake 404. |
| 13:35 | <yecril71> | Once it returns 404, the resource is REALLY NOT THERE. |
| 13:35 | <Hixie> | god is omnipotent, of course he can lie :-) |
| 13:36 | <yecril71> | God cannot lie in the sense that whatever he says, becomes truth at the very moment. |
| 13:37 | <Hixie> | so what happens if god says "This sentence is a lie"? |
| 13:37 | <yecril71> | Our universe transforms to an alternative one. |
| 13:38 | <Hixie> | (or what happens if you are trying to find a picture of god, and you go to http://example.org/god, and the server returns a picture of god, with the status code 404?) |
| 13:38 | <takkaria> | "please leave your sense of logic at the door" has never been more applicable |
| 13:39 | <yecril71> | The client script cannot detect it is 404. |
| 13:39 | <Philip`> | Hixie: I mean that e.g. "1e-1" doesn't represent 1*10^-1, it represents (something)*2^(something) which is a different number |
| 13:40 | <Hixie> | Philip`: no, it represents 0.1. Now the browser might have a hardware limitation that prevents it from accurately representing that number efficiently, and thus it might not in fact treat it as 0.1 but as some rough approximation of 0.1, but the string itself actually represents 0.1. |
| 13:42 | <Philip`> | I guess that's just a matter of perspective :-) |
| 13:43 | <Hixie> | Philip`: put it this way. if a browser implemented html5 using bcd representations, would it be non-conforming? |
| 13:45 | <Philip`> | Hixie: Probably, because ECMAScript requires IEEE 754 double semantics |
| 13:46 | <Hixie> | certainly when exposing the numbers to ECMAScript they'd need to be converted to base-2 representations |
| 13:46 | <Hixie> | but we're not talking about JS APIs here |
| 13:46 | <Hixie> | anyway |
| 13:46 | <Hixie> | bed time |
| 13:46 | <Hixie> | nn |
| 13:46 | <takkaria> | I thought BCD was something they made up to waste time in computing classes |
| 13:47 | <yecril71> | BCD is for calculating your tax returns. |
| 13:47 | <Philip`> | Some CPUs have special instructions for BCD computations |
| 13:47 | <gsnedders> | What's BCD? |
| 13:47 | <yecril71> | And the balance of your bank account. |
| 13:47 | <yecril71> | Binary Code for Digits. |
| 13:47 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Binary Coded Decimal |
| 13:48 | <takkaria> | fixed-point, surely, not BCD? |
| 13:48 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: which is where you take a decimal number, then represent each digit as 4 binary digits |
| 13:48 | <gsnedders> | fun |
| 13:48 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: (so e.g. a 32-bit register could represent a 8-digit decimal number) |
| 13:48 | <gsnedders> | Yeah |
| 13:49 | <Philip`> | It makes arithmetic more fun |
| 13:49 | <yecril71> | IMB invented BCD for financial calculations on mainframes. |
| 13:49 | <yecril71> | s/IMB/IBM/ |
| 13:50 | <yecril71> | in order to minimize roundoff errors. |
| 13:51 | <yecril71> | There is no way the page can know if the document has been printed or not. |
| 13:51 | <yecril71> | Short of revieweing a scan of the printout, that is. |
| 13:52 | <Philip`> | takkaria: You'd want fixed-point rather than floating-point, but I guess you'd want it to be decimal fixed-point rather than binary fixed-point so that you can convert to/from human-readable decimal representations with much less cost |
| 13:53 | gsnedders | needs to make notes on 100 pages per day to get through all the texts for his English dissertation before term starts again |
| 13:53 | <Philip`> | takkaria: (because converting a binary number to a decimal string is probably very expensive when the numbers have a dozen digits and your CPU is made of cheese and string) |
| 13:54 | <takkaria> | true |
| 13:55 | Philip` | once made a three-digit binary-to-decimal converter at school using simple NAND/NOR/etc chips, and it took two whole breadboards |
| 13:59 | <Philip`> | (I probably should have just used a BCD chip, but that would have been no fun) |
| 13:59 | <gsnedders> | Your school had BCD chips? |
| 14:03 | <gsnedders> | MikeSmith: Music suggestions? |
| 14:03 | <yecril71> | Footnotes are different from asides. |
| 14:04 | <yecril71> | Asides provide illustrative content, |
| 14:04 | <yecril71> | foot notes provide technical content that is no fun to read. |
| 14:04 | <MikeSmith> | gsnedders: MF DOOM, MadLib, .. MadVillian |
| 14:05 | <MikeSmith> | Yesterday's New Quintet |
| 14:06 | <MikeSmith> | Clutchy Hopkins |
| 14:08 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Yes - 7441 BCD-to-decimal decoder, I think |
| 14:10 | <Philip`> | yecril71: The Hitchhiker's Guide disproves your claim that footnotes are no fun to read |
| 14:10 | <jwalden> | BCD finds use in TI-8[34].* calculators, among others, unless the machines have changed since the 83+ times |
| 14:10 | gsnedders | marks MikeSmith suggestions for later and tunes into gothic metal on last.fm |
| 14:11 | <MikeSmith> | Flann O'Brien proved some things about footnotes a while before that |
| 14:12 | <Philip`> | MikeSmith: But I've never read anything he wrote, whereas I have read HHGTTG, so I can only use the latter as evidence :-p |
| 14:13 | <takkaria> | try reading John Stuart Mill's Utilitarianism for an amusing footnote, and that was the 1800s |
| 14:13 | gsnedders | still hasn't worked out whether we're markup geeks or Eng.lit. geeks |
| 14:13 | <takkaria> | I'm a philosophy geek ^_^ |
| 14:14 | <gsnedders> | takkaria: You're crazy. |
| 14:14 | <takkaria> | no, just bored :( |
| 14:14 | <yecril71> | What is fun in "op.cit., 100-157?" |
| 14:15 | <MikeSmith> | yecril71: stop, stop, you're making me do bellylaughs |
| 14:16 | <yecril71> | I shall consider stopping as soon as I get a decent footnote element. |
| 14:17 | <MikeSmith> | Philip`: you have something to look forward to if you've never read Flann O'Brien |
| 14:18 | <Philip`> | MikeSmith: That's only something to look forward to if I ever plan to read him in the future |
| 14:18 | gsnedders | goes back to writing notes on Nabokov |
| 14:18 | <MikeSmith> | yecril71: I recommend you stick to telling jokes like "op.cit., 100-157?".. that one's a classic. You should be a professional footnote comedian. |
| 14:19 | <Philip`> | That seems a very specialised profession |
| 14:19 | <Philip`> | LaTeX makes it a bit tricky to have footnotes inside footnotes, which always annoys me |
| 14:20 | <MikeSmith> | gsnedders: I've given up on music and now I just listen to old episodes of CBS Radio Mystery Theater featuring E.G. Marshall.. "the theater of the imagination" |
| 14:20 | <gsnedders> | "He felt both sorry and repelled but, realizing that the material, apart from its one specific function, had no potentional whatever, he kept doggedly at his chor" |
| 14:20 | <gsnedders> | *chore |
| 14:21 | <MikeSmith> | Philip`: if you plan to try psilocybin or LSD in the future, I recommend that you consider trying it in combination with reading At-Swim-Two-Birds |
| 14:22 | gsnedders | tries to imagine Philip` trying such things |
| 14:22 | gsnedders | fails miserably |
| 14:26 | <yecril71> | It is not possible to getElementById an element in a disconnected subtree, |
| 14:27 | <yecril71> | therefore the uniqueness restriction of identifiers in disconnected subtrees |
| 14:27 | <yecril71> | arguably serves no purpose. |
| 14:27 | <Philip`> | MikeSmith: I think the closest I'll ever get to that is trying BSD |
| 14:31 | <annevk> | yecril71, fwiw, IRC is not the best place to comment on the spec (I might have mentioned this already...) |
| 14:32 | <annevk> | yecril71, that is, unless Hixie is around and happens to be editing that part of the specification, it's generally a waste of time |
| 14:34 | <MikeSmith> | Philip`: I guarantee you the Berkeley guys who came up with BSD did their fair share of ther *SD and psilocybin. Billy Joy needed the holy ghost to be able to write his TCP/IP implementation |
| 14:35 | <MikeSmith> | yecril71: I think your IRC comments need more footnotes, preferably humorous ones. |
| 14:38 | <Philip`> | MikeSmith: That's not possible unless IRC has explicit syntax to represent footnote semantics |
| 14:40 | <yecril71> | Hixie has encouraged me to share my comments here. |
| 14:40 | <yecril71> | This way, he wastes my time by sending irrelevant information to me, |
| 14:41 | <jwalden> | probably to stimulate discussion before a proposal, I suspect |
| 14:41 | <yecril71> | while I do not waste his. |
| 14:41 | <jwalden> | email discussion is no fun for hashing out basics, too slow |
| 14:41 | <MikeSmith> | Philip`: I'm already on top of it. I'm on the #irc channel the master IRC network alerting J. Oikarinen about his lack of foresight |
| 14:44 | <Dashiva> | MikeSmith: Are you writing a XML-based replacement as well? |
| 14:44 | <Dashiva> | Atom is a good starting point |
| 14:44 | <takkaria> | the IRC protocol is a wonderful mess that deviates significantly from its documentation |
| 14:45 | <annevk> | Dashiva :D |
| 14:45 | <yecril71> | I imagine Hixie can scan the logs if he wishes to, provided the log machine works. |
| 14:46 | <yecril71> | So it is not quite like typing into the void. |
| 14:46 | <gsnedders> | takkaria: I think that's an understatement |
| 14:47 | <annevk> | oh, he has his own logs, but he rarely replies to random banter :) |
| 14:48 | <yecril71> | It is me who is replying here. |
| 14:49 | annevk | shrugs |
| 14:52 | <MikeSmith> | Dashiva: I'm writing it in Lisp |
| 14:53 | <takkaria> | s-expressions for IRC actually aren't a bad idea |
| 14:54 | <yecril71> | Playing jingles in the backround of spoken text does not seem like a good idea. |
| 14:54 | <yecril71> | It can make the text significantly harder to understand. |
| 14:55 | <gsnedders> | Why are there so many good Finnish bands? |
| 14:56 | <yecril71> | Because the Finns have long nigths with nothing to do :-) |
| 14:56 | <yecril71> | nights |
| 15:04 | <yecril71> | CSS behaviors, as implemented by Internet Explorer, are quite convenient. |
| 15:05 | <yecril71> | On the other hand, they require scripts to run anyway, |
| 15:05 | <yecril71> | and once scripts can run, the events can be attached using a setup script. |
| 15:06 | <yecril71> | This would require the CSS selector API. |
| 16:02 | <Philip`> | Dashiva: XMPP already supports multi-user chat, so that'd probably be a better starting point |
| 16:02 | <Philip`> | or maybe it's already the finishing point |
| 16:02 | <Philip`> | but anyway it uses XML so it must be good |
| 16:03 | <Philip`> | (Never mind that you can basically destroy an entire channel by sending namespace-ill-formed XML that the server will blindly retransmit to every other user in the channel and cause their connections to drop) |
| 16:13 | <jwalden> | that's a server bug, no? |
| 16:13 | <jwalden> | or so I'd expect |
| 16:16 | <Philip`> | Yes (in ejabberd) - it's fixable, but not trivially, and it's the kind of bug that XML seems to encourage |
| 16:17 | <Philip`> | (It's non-trivial because you need a namespace-aware self-contained-XML-fragment serialiser, and you need it written in Erlang) |
| 16:20 | <annevk> | hmm, class names are case-insensitive? |
| 16:20 | <annevk> | oh, they're not |
| 16:36 | <hdh0> | in 4.5.13.1, "because the order is not particular important" should be "particularly" |
| 21:09 | zcorpan_ | ponders about the interactiveness of <details> |
| 21:10 | <zcorpan_> | Hixie: shouldn't <legend> ban interactive descendants if the parent is <details>? |
| 22:03 | <heycam> | thanks Hixie (re svgwg) |
| 22:04 | <heycam> | Philip`, i'd say that "-0" shouldn't be a signed integer, one reason for which would be that the integral types in Web IDL don't include a "-0" value |
| 22:04 | <heycam> | (though float does) |
| 22:06 | <Philip`> | heycam: There already isn't a one-to-one mapping between strings and values, e.g. "01" and "1" both mean the same number, so is it bad if "-0" and "0" both mean the same number too? |
| 22:11 | <heycam> | i don't think having multiple strings mapping to the same number is a problem. but the fact that "01" means the same regardless of whether the type is a long or a float, but "-0" means different things, might be trouble. |
| 22:11 | <heycam> | well not trouble, ... |
| 22:11 | <heycam> | but unexpected |
| 22:12 | <heycam> | (though i expect the number of authors to know about negative zeroes in floats to be small anyway) |
| 22:18 | <Philip`> | heycam: As far as I can tell, "-0" means the same as "0" in HTML5's definition of floating point numbers, because it's defined in terms of ideal real numbers |
| 22:18 | <Philip`> | (and ideal real numbers don't have a -0) |
| 22:20 | <heycam> | oh |
| 22:20 | <heycam> | so html5 parsing of floats is different from ecma-262 parsing of floats |
| 22:22 | <Philip`> | HTML5 parsing of floats doesn't even allow "1e+1" |
| 22:22 | <Philip`> | (It only allows "1e1" and "1e-1") |
| 22:24 | <Philip`> | which is probably going to be horribly confusing for anyone who's generating HTML from a language that serialises large floating point numbers with "...e+...", i.e. pretty much any language |
| 22:24 | <heycam> | yeah, i think it would be better if they parsed the same |
| 22:24 | <heycam> | is there a particular reason to disallow "1e+1" and other things? |
| 22:25 | <Philip`> | Ask Hixie :-) |
| 22:25 | <heycam> | Hixie is hereby asked |
| 22:26 | <zcorpan_> | iirc, it's to be compatible with parseInt() in as many languages as possible |
| 22:26 | <Philip`> | zcorpan_: Why would you parse a floating point number with parseInt? |
| 22:26 | <zcorpan_> | er |
| 22:26 | <zcorpan_> | parseFloat |
| 22:27 | <Philip`> | It seems much more useful to be compatible with printFloat, because millions of people are going to be doing that, whereas about five people are going to be writing web browsers that have to parse these floats |
| 22:27 | <heycam> | and they already have routines for parsing floats with "e+" in them from the js engines, i suppose |
| 22:27 | <Hixie> | please send e-mail if you want e+ support |
| 22:29 | zcorpan_ | was thinking of http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-forms/current-work/#number |
| 22:29 | <Philip`> | zcorpan_: Ah, I was thinking of http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#rules-for-parsing-floating-point-number-values |
| 22:29 | <Philip`> | particularly when it's used for reflecting content attributes |
| 22:36 | Philip` | will send e-mail |
| 22:40 | gsnedders | often emails himself |
| 22:40 | gsnedders | is that much of a loner |
| 22:44 | Lachy | waves from London |
| 22:44 | <Lachy> | I arrived here earlier this afternoon |
| 22:44 | <gsnedders> | How come you're in London? |
| 22:45 | <Lachy> | holiday |
| 22:45 | <Lachy> | also because there is an Australia shop here where I can stock up on my supplies of Vegemite, Tim Tams, Aeroplane Jelly and Cottees Cordial |
| 22:47 | <Philip`> | Is Vegemite much different to Marmite? |
| 22:47 | <Lachy> | I just hope they have all that stuff in stock. If they don't, I'll be disappointed because the shipping costs for that stuff if I have to get it posted are expensive |
| 22:48 | <Lachy> | Vegemite is the original and superior version of Marmite |
| 22:48 | <Lachy> | I think marmite is quite disqusting, actually |
| 22:48 | <Lachy> | *disgusting |
| 22:49 | <smedero> | what are the differences in texture and/or taste? |
| 22:49 | <Lachy> | marmite is a lot more runny |
| 22:49 | <Lachy> | it's difficult to describe the differences in taste |
| 22:50 | <Lachy> | smedero, what country are you in? |
| 22:50 | <smedero> | united states |
| 22:50 | smedero | hides |
| 22:50 | <Lachy> | there are some Australia stores in the US. Order a small tube of it and try it out |
| 22:51 | <Lachy> | do you get marmite in the uS? |
| 22:51 | gsnedders | takes his pitch-fork to smedero |
| 22:51 | <Philip`> | It comes in tubes? How odd |
| 22:51 | <Lachy> | it comes in tubes and jars |
| 22:51 | <smedero> | yeah, i've come across it from time to time... more so in the northeast than here on the west coast. |
| 22:51 | <Lachy> | the tubes are smaller, lighter and cost less to post |
| 22:52 | <Lachy> | it also comes in 1.5kg tubs, which I will get if I can find it here |
| 22:52 | <gsnedders> | 1.5KG!? |
| 22:53 | <Lachy> | yeah. I only saw it a few times though while I was in Aus. Though I never bought it because the smaller jars were more convenient and getting more wasn't a problem back then. |
| 22:53 | <Hixie> | larry finally replied to my e-mail on www-tag |
| 22:54 | <Hixie> | but it seems he just restated his original statement using a different pair of terms |
| 22:54 | <Hixie> | ignoring my points entirely |
| 22:54 | <gsnedders> | Why would we care about your points? |
| 22:54 | <gsnedders> | I mean, you're Hixie. |
| 22:54 | <gsnedders> | By definition, you are wrong. You're not Linus Torvalds. |
| 22:55 | <roc> | Marmite predates Vegemite |
| 22:55 | <Lachy> | woah! 2.5kg http://www.everythingaustralian.com/ve2tubainst.html |
| 22:58 | <Lachy> | roc, wow. I didn't realise that. I always though marmite was the rip off product |
| 22:58 | <roc> | of course, you're Austrlian |
| 22:58 | <roc> | you obviously think you invented the pavlova as well |
| 22:59 | <Lachy> | of course :-) |
| 23:01 | <Lachy> | wtf? Wikipedia says it may have come from New Zealand |
| 23:01 | <gsnedders> | Hah. |
| 23:01 | <Lachy> | and it also claims ANZAC biscuits came from there too. I refuse toe believe that |
| 23:01 | <gsnedders> | Australia does not rule the world. |
| 23:01 | <Lachy> | s/toe/to/ |
| 23:02 | <Philip`> | I thought pavlova was designed as a treat to be used in canine psychology experiments |
| 23:02 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, sure it does |
| 23:02 | <Lachy> | well, at least we can still claim to have invented the Lamingtons |
| 23:02 | <gsnedders> | You can _claim_ whatever the hell you want. |
| 23:02 | <gsnedders> | You just probably won't be right to claim absolutely anything. |
| 23:03 | Philip` | congratulates Lachy for the invention of something he's never heard of |
| 23:03 | <Lachy> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamington |
| 23:04 | <Lachy> | I made a batch of those myself yesterday and brought them with me to London |
| 23:04 | <heycam> | "Tea and lamingtons are part of the festivities that follow Australian Citizenship ceremonies." |
| 23:04 | <heycam> | citation required? :) |
| 23:05 | <roc> | that seems too hokey to be true, even for Australians |
| 23:05 | <gsnedders> | That whole article seems rather devoid of citations |
| 23:05 | <Lachy> | yeah, I was surprised when I read that. But I can't confirm or deny it since I never had to go through the ceremony |
| 23:05 | <roc> | after the tea and lamingtons you have to go surfing and play "Waltzing Matilda" on a digeridoo |
| 23:06 | <Lachy> | LOL |
| 23:07 | <heycam> | one thing you do get after being conferred citizenship at a cermemony is a native australian plant |
| 23:08 | <Lachy> | heycam, is that a Gum Tree or Wattle or something else? |
| 23:08 | <heycam> | Lachy, i'm not sure, i never looked closely to see what sort of plant it was |
| 23:08 | <heycam> | (for the 2 or 3 that i've seen) |
| 23:12 | <Lachy> | heycam, those 2 plants are distinctive enough to not need a close inspection to identify |
| 23:15 | <heycam> | probably, although i don't know if a young wattle would have the bright yellow flowers to make it easier to distinguish |
| 23:15 | <Lachy> | ok |
| 23:18 | <zcorpan_> | Philip`: i'd like to look at some pages that match (maxlength|hspace|vspace|border|cols|rows|size|span|colspan|rowspan|cellpadding|cellspacing|topmargin|leftmargin|marginwidth|marginheight|scrollamount|scrolldelay|start|value|width|height)\s*=\s*["']?\s*\d+[a-zA-Z] |
| 23:19 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 23:19 | <Hixie> | i know what zcorpan is doing! |
| 23:19 | <Hixie> | and i approve |
| 23:19 | <Hixie> | please do let me know your results |
| 23:19 | <gsnedders> | Working out WTF IE is doing :P |
| 23:20 | <zcorpan_> | no, trying to figure out if we should do what mozilla does or not |
| 23:22 | <zcorpan_> | Hixie: btw, firefox does it in standards mode too... my remark about quirks was unrelated |
| 23:23 | <Hixie> | really? i fouund differences when i tested it |
| 23:23 | <Hixie> | i wonder what i was testing |
| 23:24 | <Hixie> | maybe it was safari |
| 23:26 | <zcorpan_> | it's easy to get confused while testing it (i got width/height backwards when testing moz) :) |
| 23:32 | <Philip`> | zcorpan_: Millions of people write <td width="123px"> etc - should I try excluding those? |
| 23:33 | <Philip`> | zcorpan_: Lots of people write <input value="123abc"> etc too - should I remove 'value' from the list? |
| 23:36 | <gsnedders> | Man, there is no consensus for weather forecasts for Saturday for Edi |
| 23:37 | <Philip`> | I forecast that it will be cold, and maybe wet |
| 23:37 | <gsnedders> | :P |
| 23:37 | gsnedders | is probably going to go to Edinburgh for no real reason |
| 23:38 | <gsnedders> | Just to do something different. |
| 23:39 | <roc> | zcorpan_: what are you talking about? |
| 23:41 | <Philip`> | zcorpan_: http://philip.html5.org/data/attribute-numbers-followed-by-letters.txt |
| 23:41 | <Philip`> | zcorpan_: http://philip.html5.org/data/attribute-numbers-followed-by-letters-excluding-boring-stuff.txt |
| 23:41 | <Philip`> | zcorpan_: (I can make the list longer if you wait a while) |
| 23:41 | <Hixie> | the "px" case seems like a very important one |
| 23:42 | <Hixie> | does IE really ignore all those cases? |
| 23:42 | <zcorpan_> | roc: <table width="100a"> vs <table width="100x"> |
| 23:43 | <zcorpan_> | Hixie: ie doesn't do it for width/height |
| 23:44 | <Hixie> | ah |
| 23:45 | <Hixie> | then philip should exclude width/height, not "px" :-) |
| 23:45 | <Hixie> | most of the rest seem to be <font size=...pt> |
| 23:46 | <Hixie> | does it do it for size=""? |
| 23:47 | <zcorpan_> | did i write a-z? i meant a-f :/ |
| 23:47 | <Philip`> | Oh |
| 23:47 | <zcorpan_> | sorry |
| 23:47 | <Philip`> | Should I try it again with [a-f]? |
| 23:47 | <Philip`> | (Should I still include 'value'?) |
| 23:49 | <zcorpan_> | if you like :) (and no) |
| 23:50 | <Philip`> | http://philip.html5.org/data/attribute-numbers-followed-by-af.txt is not many yet |
| 23:51 | Philip` | will update it in a few minutes when there's more search results |
| 23:52 | <zcorpan_> | thanks |
| 23:55 | <zcorpan_> | <font size="1em"> |
| 23:56 | <zcorpan_> | height=38border=0 |
| 23:56 | <Philip`> | http://philip.html5.org/data/attribute-numbers-followed-by-af.txt - now with a bit more |
| 23:57 | Philip` | leaves his grep running, since it might take a while |
| 23:57 | <zcorpan_> | <FONT SIZE="20em"> |
| 23:59 | <zcorpan_> | which is http://www.angelfire.com/wi/baril/ -- looks wrong in firefox |