| 00:09 | <Hixie> | Philip`: can you find a difference between bgcolor="" and bgcolor="Transparent" on <table>? |
| 00:09 | <Hixie> | the bgcolor=transparent on that site seems useless |
| 00:10 | Hixie | risks getting even more hated by the rdf community |
| 00:15 | <Philip`> | Hixie: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cstyle%3Etr%7Bbackground%3Ayellow%7D%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0D%0A%3Cbody%20bgcolor%3Dblue%3E%0D%0A%3Ctable%3E%3Ctr%3E%3Ctd%20bgcolor%3D%22%22%3EA%3Ctd%20bgcolor%3Dtransparent%3EB%3C%2Ftable%3E |
| 00:15 | <Philip`> | That's not table, but it's close :-) |
| 00:15 | gsnedders | throws Hixie some hatred |
| 00:20 | <Philip`> | (http://philip.html5.org/data/bgcolor-transparent.txt is all the bgcolor="transparent"s that I see) |
| 00:20 | <Philip`> | (and http://philip.html5.org/data/bgcolors.txt is counts of total occurrences of values) |
| 00:21 | Philip` | sees a bgcolor="#(hex code here)" |
| 00:21 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Can you get the latter list ignoring all conforming values |
| 00:22 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: I don't know what's conforming |
| 00:22 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: but you could easily work it out and filter the list yourself :-) |
| 00:22 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: See: HTML 5 |
| 00:22 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: No, I'm lazy. |
| 00:22 | <gsnedders> | :) |
| 00:22 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Me too :-p |
| 00:22 | <gsnedders> | I know :P |
| 00:22 | <gsnedders> | I knew it was in vain. |
| 00:23 | <Philip`> | Hmm, maybe I should have sorted the bgcolor list in a proper ordering rather than whatever fancy English collation it's doing by default |
| 00:24 | Philip` | uploads a new version of bgcolors.txt, now with all the #s grouped together, which is much more sensible |
| 00:27 | <Hixie> | Philip`: what does IE do with that test case? |
| 00:28 | <gsnedders> | A double-backflip while whistling the Star Spangled Banner? |
| 00:28 | gsnedders | hopes that's the correct reference |
| 00:28 | <Hixie> | btw the live dom viewer now has a "save" button that gives you a "short" url |
| 00:28 | <Hixie> | feel free to use it |
| 00:29 | <Philip`> | Hixie: The A cell has a yellow background, the B cell has a blue background (i.e. matching the body background) |
| 00:30 | <Hixie> | oh lordy |
| 00:30 | <Hixie> | that's... uh... non-trivial to emulate |
| 00:30 | <Hixie> | luckily the other browsers don't do it... |
| 00:31 | <Philip`> | Hixie: If I use the short URLs, and then your server crashes or is shut down and the short URL database is lost, then the whole future of humanity will be denied the knowledge of my tests |
| 00:31 | <Hixie> | it's true |
| 00:32 | <Hixie> | i can expose the database if you like... :-) |
| 00:32 | <Philip`> | whereas if I paste the long URL into IRC then it'll be copied into lots of people's private logs, and the web logs and caches and suchlike |
| 00:32 | <Philip`> | thus saving our grandchildren from such deprivation of knowledge |
| 00:32 | <Hixie> | fair enough :-) |
| 00:33 | <Philip`> | Hixie: Nah, exposing it would probably just be a waste of time :-p |
| 01:13 | <Hixie> | Philip`: if you still have IE open, do you see anything indicating that it treats text="transparent" or link="transparent" on <body> any different than ""? |
| 01:16 | <Philip`> | Hixie: Yes |
| 01:16 | <Philip`> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cstyle%3Ehtml%7Bcolor%3Ared%7D%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0D%0A%3Cbody%20text%3Dtransparent%3ETest - text is black |
| 01:17 | <Philip`> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cstyle%3Ehtml%7Bcolor%3Ared%7D%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0D%0A%3Cbody%20text%3D''%3ETest - text is red |
| 01:18 | <Hixie> | so what, IE uses "transparent" as a magic keyword that just does something random? :-/ |
| 01:19 | <Hixie> | screw it, i'm just gonna make "transparent" and "" do the same thing, none of the other browsers do these crazy things |
| 01:42 | <Philip`> | Hixie: Sounds reasonable :-) |
| 01:43 | Philip` | finds that his wireless router has apparently vanished so he can no longer access the internet, and therefore goes to bed |
| 09:38 | <annevk42> | http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=2821&to=2822 :) |
| 10:14 | jgraham | will fix pms.net now |
| 10:14 | <jgraham> | He said hopefully |
| 10:32 | jgraham | totally can't get pimpmyspec.net to crash by removing parameters |
| 10:45 | <jgraham> | Where ia Philip` when you want something broken? |
| 10:49 | <Philip`> | In bed |
| 11:14 | <gsnedders> | In the real world, what SVG DOCTYPE should I use? |
| 11:16 | <yecril71> | Reminder: MSIE allows src="about:..." for doc="..." |
| 11:32 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: none |
| 11:32 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: DTDlessness FTW! |
| 12:13 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: k |
| 12:14 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Use the SVG5 doctype, <!DOCTYPE svg> |
| 12:14 | <gsnedders> | :D |
| 12:15 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: BTW the only change I made to stop pms.net with html5lib was in anolis code |
| 12:16 | <jgraham> | Although I guess I might have broken it... |
| 12:16 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: patches welcome :) |
| 12:16 | <jgraham> | *crashing |
| 12:16 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Shall I just make my repo of anolis public so that you can oull changes at your lesiure? |
| 12:17 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: that would be an easier solution :) |
| 12:17 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Provided you actually commit to it |
| 12:17 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Have you commited your changes to the web ui yet? |
| 12:20 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: http://hg.hoppipolla.co.uk/hgwebdir.cgi/anolis/ |
| 12:20 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Yes, I committed the changes but all as one big bundle |
| 12:35 | <heycam`> | gsnedders, recommended is not to use a doctype |
| 12:35 | heycam` | sleeps |
| 12:46 | hsivonen | found a MUST-level inpompatibility between XHTML2 and HTML5: fragment id support |
| 12:48 | hsivonen | finds this gem in XHTML2: "Note that this specification does not generally specify the behavior of conforming implementations when presented with non-conforming documents. This is either defined by an underlying specification (e.g., [XML]) or left to the implementor." |
| 12:58 | jgraham | wonders if there is a way to download all the flickr api documentation at once |
| 12:59 | <Philip`> | wget -R? |
| 13:11 | <jgraham> | Hmm not sure what I did there |
| 13:30 | <gsnedders> | You non-UTF-8'd us! |
| 13:32 | <gsnedders> | Oh dear. > 1200 unread emails. |
| 13:32 | <gsnedders> | I need to catch up. |
| 13:40 | <jgraham> | "Wrong question, developers as we see them today will be an anachronism, |
| 13:40 | <jgraham> | that's part of the fun. |
| 13:40 | <jgraham> | " |
| 13:40 | <jgraham> | And people wonder why there is skepticism about RDF(a) |
| 13:41 | <jgraham> | (that's from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Feb/0073.html btw) |
| 13:50 | <hsivonen> | is <video> already deployed on Wikipedia somewere in such a way that it can be demoed with Firefox 3.1 today? |
| 13:52 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: It seems like there are some videos, then you have to go to More... and Native Browser Support |
| 13:53 | <jgraham> | so it's maybe not the best demo) |
| 13:53 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: URL? |
| 13:54 | <jgraham> | ]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Creation_and_usage_of_media_files#Video has some examples |
| 13:54 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: thanks |
| 13:55 | <hsivonen> | wtf? does Wikipedia *prefer* QuickTime over native support? |
| 13:57 | <jgraham> | Yeah, the order seems to be Java->Quicktime->native->stills. I think there was some discussion of this but I don't recall what the reason was |
| 13:58 | <hsivonen> | that makes no sense. shouldn't it be Native, QuickTime, Java, Stills in order to make sense? |
| 14:00 | <jgraham> | That's what I would pick but there we go |
| 14:00 | jgraham | decides it is time for food |
| 14:12 | <hsivonen> | I wonder if there's a simple way to find a clip with more action on wikipedia |
| 14:18 | <Philip`> | You could make one and then upload it to Wikipedia |
| 14:23 | <hsivonen> | is the Octopus clip howcome demoed on any real wikipedia page now? |
| 15:18 | hsivonen | ended up using http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groundhog |
| 18:42 | <gsnedders> | selector specificity can be rather annoying |
| 18:48 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Just use !important and then it won't be a problem |
| 18:49 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: The problem is that breaks other stuff :P |
| 18:51 | <Dashiva> | We need !very-important |
| 18:52 | <gsnedders> | :P |
| 19:07 | <takkaria> | very-important isn't very extensible |
| 19:07 | <takkaria> | it should be !important(x) |
| 19:07 | <takkaria> | where x is an integer |
| 19:07 | <takkaria> | and then if x == "inf", it's the most important |
| 19:21 | <Dashiva> | takkaria: It's very extensible, quite literally. You extend it by adding another very :P |
| 19:33 | <gsnedders> | takkaria: What about inf+1? |
| 19:50 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Fortunately CSS doesn't allow arithmetic, so that case won't occur |
| 19:55 | <Dashiva> | expressions |
| 19:57 | <Philip`> | ? |
| 19:58 | <Dashiva> | IE's css expressions allow it |
| 20:04 | <Philip`> | Ah |
| 20:04 | <Philip`> | In that case Infinity+1 == Infinity so there's no problem |
| 20:15 | <Dashiva> | I see your namesake is aiming for a new high score in process ping pong |
| 20:21 | <Philip`> | Where abouts is that happening? |
| 20:22 | <Dashiva> | A few days ago on public-html |
| 20:22 | <gsnedders> | Dashiva: Dude, get with the times. |
| 20:22 | <gsnedders> | Dashiva: That was _days_ ago. |
| 20:22 | <Philip`> | Oh, you can't expect me to remember back that far |
| 20:22 | <Philip`> | I don't even remember what I was doing this morning |
| 20:22 | <Dashiva> | I'm having trouble keeping up with the traffic volume on public-html |
| 20:22 | <Dashiva> | (Not really, but I forget to check it) |
| 20:24 | <Philip`> | I think you should start a giant thread on the mailing list discussing the potential for using new communication technologies because of the large amount of traffic on the mailing list |
| 20:24 | <Philip`> | Also you should discuss whether the charter allows us to use new communication technologies instead of the list |
| 20:24 | <Dashiva> | Is opera.com down for everyone or just me? downforeveryoneorjustme.com isn't being helpful. |
| 20:25 | <Philip`> | Dashiva: It's either down or very slow for me |
| 20:25 | <Dashiva> | Thanks |
| 20:41 | <Dashiva> | This is somewhat disturbing: http://www.duelinganalogs.com/posting/1233936531/ |
| 21:53 | <Dashiva> | "I wrote something a while back that said, I don’t have to justify wanting RDFa, because RDF is, to me, a goal, not a solution." |
| 21:53 | <Dashiva> | Can you even say that with a straight face? |
| 21:54 | jcranmer | shudders at hearing RDF |
| 21:54 | <jcranmer> | gut reaction |
| 21:55 | <Dashiva> | Ignore that it mentions RDFa for now |
| 21:55 | <Dashiva> | "I don't have to justify X, because X is a goal to me." |
| 21:55 | <jcranmer> | or, in short, "I don't have to justify wanting it because I want it" |
| 21:57 | <Philip`> | It seems quite reasonable to want something without justifying it, e.g. I might want chocolate cake for no particular reason; but it's not reasonable to expect anyone else to expend any effort to help you get that, if you don't try to demonstrate why their effort will be worthwhile |