| 01:05 | <Hixie> | I sure had a lot fewer meetings back when Google didn't know HTML5 was important. |
| 01:05 | <olliej> | Hixie: heheh |
| 01:09 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Wait, they hired you to work on it before they knew it was important? :\ |
| 01:11 | <MikeSmith> | Vic Gundotra's demos in Barcelona seemed to have caught quite a bit of attention |
| 01:11 | <gsnedders> | Who? |
| 01:12 | gsnedders | claims ignorance |
| 01:20 | <Hixie> | http://www.w3.org/mid/49B4D2B2.7010803⊙in is fantastic |
| 01:20 | <Hixie> | the summary in particular |
| 01:21 | <Hixie> | that afternoon, they decided that something that would only happen by mistake should be an error, then they decided -- separately! -- to actually update the spec to reflect the previous decision. |
| 01:21 | <Hixie> | then they discussed what to discuss next time they discussed things |
| 01:22 | <Hixie> | then they reviewed a process for reviewing things |
| 01:22 | <gsnedders> | "that afternoon" doesn't appear in that link |
| 01:22 | <Hixie> | and then they decided to publish a document |
| 01:22 | <Hixie> | "PM" means afternoon |
| 01:23 | <gsnedders> | Oh, was that your summary of her summary? |
| 01:23 | <Hixie> | yes |
| 01:23 | <Hixie> | i wonder if they had a process for reviewing the process for reviewing the review process that they used to review the review process. |
| 01:24 | <Hixie> | or if they just winged it |
| 01:24 | gsnedders | thinks Hixie has just proved his craziness by finding this funny |
| 01:25 | <gsnedders> | Slightly mad, yes; funny, not really. |
| 01:25 | <Hixie> | what did i find funny? |
| 01:26 | <gsnedders> | Oh, I thought you meant it was funny by saying it was fantastic |
| 01:29 | <roc> | MikeSmith: of what do you speak? |
| 01:29 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: funny is the wrong word really |
| 01:30 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: I mean it is certainly s/ic/ai/, but without that change you end up debating what you mean by it :P |
| 01:30 | <MikeSmith> | roc: some videos on youtube |
| 01:30 | <MikeSmith> | Vic did a keynote that the Mobility World Congress event last month |
| 01:31 | <MikeSmith> | and another presentation too, I think |
| 01:31 | <MikeSmith> | in both of which he talked about HTML5 features |
| 01:32 | <MikeSmith> | demo'ed HTML5-enabled GMail on Palm Pre, and Google Maps on iPhone |
| 01:33 | <roc> | What's HTML5-enabled GMail? |
| 01:34 | <gsnedders> | "Discussed fallback color and syntax, no consensus so fantasai will edit and collect complaints later." is nice too |
| 01:39 | <Hixie> | roc: uses the database and appcache features to have real offline mode without using gears |
| 01:39 | <roc> | oh really? |
| 01:39 | <roc> | cool |
| 01:39 | <Hixie> | (falls back to gears for android, iirc, sadly; but true html5 offline on iphone) |
| 01:40 | <Hixie> | hopefully this will actually ship one day and stop being just vic's favourite demo :-) |
| 01:40 | <roc> | do you happen to know if it uses SQLite's full-text search for searching the email store? |
| 01:41 | <Hixie> | not off-hand, but i do know that was one of the features the gmail team was asking the gears team for a few years back |
| 01:41 | <roc> | there's a thread about the database situation on mozilla.dev.platform |
| 01:41 | <MikeSmith> | roc: http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_goes_html5_demoes_expermental_gmail.php |
| 01:41 | <Hixie> | yeah, i've been watching it |
| 01:41 | <Hixie> | afk, food |
| 01:42 | <gsnedders> | wow. Hixie away from keyboard. that's impressive. |
| 01:42 | <roc> | we want client-side SQL of some kind, but we don't want SQLite to be the standard for the Web forever more :-( |
| 01:43 | <gsnedders> | How about SQL '92? :P |
| 01:52 | <gsnedders> | Hmm… http://gsnedders.com/about-the-author is blocked by google safe-search |
| 03:28 | <sicking> | Hixie, ping |
| 03:35 | <olliej> | yo sicking |
| 03:36 | <sicking> | olliej, word to your mother |
| 03:37 | <olliej> | sicking: just tidying up my importScripts patch |
| 03:37 | <olliej> | am matching the spec behaviour |
| 03:37 | <sicking> | olliej, cool, sounds like bent was ok with doing that too. Hope we'll be able to do that before ff3.1 is out |
| 03:38 | <olliej> | sicking: it's not dramatically different for our code in webkit |
| 03:38 | <olliej> | sicking: just one for-loop instead of 2 |
| 03:39 | <olliej> | sicking: although my initial pass is doing sequential loading |
| 03:39 | <olliej> | rather than doing it in parallel |
| 03:39 | <olliej> | which is suckful, but makes the aptch simpler |
| 03:43 | <sicking> | olliej, cool |
| 03:43 | <sicking> | olliej, though i definitely think you'll want to do parallel loading, makes a big difference in general |
| 03:43 | <olliej> | sicking: yeah |
| 03:43 | <olliej> | sicking: but that will make reviewing harder :D |
| 03:44 | <sicking> | olliej, i think we'll end up doing parallel compilation as well, the code already does that |
| 04:08 | <Hixie> | sicking: here |
| 04:08 | <sicking> | Hixie, doh, just on my way out |
| 04:08 | <Hixie> | me too |
| 04:08 | <sicking> | Hixie, but i think i'm making progress |
| 04:08 | <sicking> | Hixie, trying to figure out which places there is feedback from parser to tokenizer |
| 04:09 | <sicking> | Hixie, and found something that looks like a bug in the spec |
| 04:09 | <Hixie> | oh, cool |
| 04:09 | <Hixie> | do tell |
| 04:09 | <sicking> | Hixie, hmm.. maybe not |
| 04:10 | <Hixie> | you are toying with my emotions here :-P |
| 04:10 | <sicking> | Hixie, textareas switch the parser into CDATA/RCDATA |
| 04:10 | <Hixie> | right |
| 04:10 | <sicking> | Hixie, but that mode doesn't have special handling for </textarea> |
| 04:10 | <sicking> | seems like it would treat </foobar> the same as </textarea> |
| 04:10 | <Hixie> | the tokeniser knows the last start tag it saw |
| 04:10 | <sicking> | ah, that's what i was wondering |
| 04:10 | <sicking> | ok |
| 04:11 | <Hixie> | see the first paragraph of 8.2.4.4 Close tag open state |
| 04:11 | <Hixie> | Referenced in: |
| 04:11 | <Hixie> | * Full table of contents * 8.2.4.3 Tag open state (2) |
| 04:11 | <Hixie> | er |
| 04:11 | <Hixie> | ignore the overpaste there |
| 04:11 | <Hixie> | 8.2.4.4, anyway |
| 04:11 | <sicking> | yeah, i keep getting those too :) |
| 04:11 | <sicking> | is there a way to turn off scripting when loading the spec? |
| 04:11 | <Hixie> | "and the next few characters do not match the tag name of the last start tag token emitted" |
| 04:11 | <Hixie> | ?slow-browser will turn off all the scripts |
| 04:11 | <sicking> | cool |
| 04:12 | <Hixie> | i'm going to have some better ui that can toggle things on and off soon |
| 04:12 | <Hixie> | once i'm done with this author dom intro stuff |
| 04:12 | <sicking> | cool |
| 04:12 | <Hixie> | anyway, i'm outta here, should be back online briefly later tonight |
| 04:12 | <sicking> | cool |
| 05:51 | <MikeSmith> | http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/ca2d45349d89fdf50e52b93e666365a059053341 |
| 05:51 | MikeSmith | looks around for roc |
| 05:51 | <MikeSmith> | "Enable SVG Animation (SMIL) support in builds by default." |
| 05:51 | <MikeSmith> | wondering if that is for dev builds only, or if that affects 3.5 also |
| 05:55 | <kinetik> | MikeSmith: dev only, 3.5 is/will be based off of the existing mozilla-1.9.1 branch |
| 05:56 | <MikeSmith> | kinetik: thanks |
| 05:57 | <MikeSmith> | guess there's not much that can be done with it anyway until the actual animation support gets implemented on top of that |
| 05:57 | <MikeSmith> | still, cool to see that it's compiled in by default now |
| 06:05 | <jwalden> | compiled in but not enabled |
| 06:06 | <jwalden> | gotta flip a hidden pref for now |
| 06:08 | <MikeSmith> | jwalden: oh |
| 06:08 | <MikeSmith> | guess that makes sense |
| 06:09 | <MikeSmith> | animations going to be very handy to have in combination with the existing filters support |
| 06:11 | jwalden | is too no-nonsense, down-to-earth to care much about animations |
| 07:12 | <MikeSmith> | jwalden: I'm too lacking in chops to be able to do anything much with the animation stuff myself. just glad it'll eventually be there to those with animation chops/clue to use |
| 07:25 | <annevk5> | http://www.maximumpc.com/files/u69/IE8_Fail_0.png |
| 10:25 | <olliej> | sicking: ping? |
| 10:37 | <jgraham> | "An implementation of ECMAScript is expected to determine the daylight saving time algorithm" Not only is that insane, it doesn't even mean what they want it to mean |
| 12:53 | <hsivonen> | hmm. the spec looks really weird in an HTML5-parsing-enabled build |
| 12:54 | <hsivonen> | I'm seeing traces of the weirdness in WebKit trunk, so perhaps it's not all my fault |
| 12:59 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: what's weird? |
| 13:01 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: there's a huge gray horizontal rectange at the top and bottom in Gecko+HTML5 parser and at the bottom in WebKit trunk |
| 13:03 | <hsivonen> | hmm. same problem on trunk without HTML5 parser |
| 13:03 | <hsivonen> | not my fault, then |
| 13:08 | <zcorpan> | at the bottom is intentional i think |
| 13:18 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, zcorpan, Hixie added the bottom margin for the reason mentioned here: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090226#l-192 |
| 13:19 | <hsivonen> | ok. the bottom margin makes sense |
| 13:19 | <hsivonen> | which makes me wonder if I get two bodies then |
| 13:20 | <hsivonen> | unfortunately, firebug thinks its incompatible with tryserver builds |
| 13:27 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, get the Nightly Tester Tools addon and override the plugin compatibility check |
| 13:27 | <Lachy> | I have firebug running in the latest trunk just fine |
| 13:32 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: thanks |
| 15:34 | <Lachy> | in the HTML5 Reference, should I use something like "hybrid document" instead of "polyglot document"? |
| 15:35 | <jgraham> | hybrid is kind of wrong |
| 15:36 | <Lachy> | jgraham, how so? |
| 15:36 | <Lachy> | I'm just trying to find a more common and easily understood term that can be used instead of jargon like polyglot. |
| 15:37 | <jgraham> | Because hybrid suggests that it is two different things joined together whereas it is actually more like one thing that happens to be parsable in two differnent ways |
| 15:37 | <Philip`> | Call it an Appendix C document |
| 15:38 | zcorpan | likes polyglot |
| 15:38 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: Appendix C is nowadays Appendix A |
| 15:38 | Philip` | doesn't like polyglot |
| 15:38 | <Philip`> | (because it sounds silly) |
| 15:38 | gsnedders | agrees that it sounds illy |
| 15:38 | <Philip`> | (and it's unlikely that many people will know what it means) |
| 15:39 | <jgraham> | pollyglot is indeed lly |
| 15:39 | <gsnedders> | Peh! They should read more books by Russian authors! |
| 15:39 | <Philip`> | (and it's easily confused with e.g. a document containing multiple human languages) |
| 15:39 | <Philip`> | jgraham: lly? |
| 15:39 | <Philip`> | Oh |
| 15:39 | Philip` | missed the joke |
| 15:41 | <Lachy> | the only other alternative I have to consider is "mixed document", but I didn't like that as much as hybrid |
| 15:41 | <Philip`> | Could you call it a "combined HTML/XHTML document"? (assuming you don't refer to it often enough for that to be too ugly) |
| 15:41 | <jgraham> | Lachy: Does "(X)HTML document" not work? |
| 15:42 | <jgraham> | or X/HTML or something |
| 15:42 | <Philip`> | jgraham: No, since that means "HTML or XHTML" |
| 15:42 | <Lachy> | I wanted it to be different enough from both "HTML document" and "XHTML document" |
| 15:42 | <gsnedders> | What are you trying to refer to anyway? |
| 15:42 | <jgraham> | (X&HT)ML |
| 15:42 | <gsnedders> | A document that is both HTML and XHTML? |
| 15:42 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, polyglot documents |
| 15:42 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: But what the hell do you mean by that! |
| 15:42 | <Philip`> | You could avoid the problem by not referring to them :-) |
| 15:43 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Documents that will parse in both HTML and XML parsers |
| 15:43 | <Lachy> | a document that conforms to both HTML and XHTML syntaxes |
| 15:43 | <gsnedders> | All right. |
| 15:43 | <Philip`> | Should it parse to the same DOM? |
| 15:43 | <Philip`> | (or at least close enough) |
| 15:43 | <jgraham> | I don't know if they have to produce the same infoset |
| 15:43 | <jgraham> | (or whatever the right technical term is) |
| 15:43 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Well, if you're using ElementTree, I hope not |
| 15:43 | <Lachy> | Philip`, it will be close enough. It's not possible for it to be exactly the same DOM due to the way namespaces are handled |
| 15:44 | <Philip`> | like would "<pre>\nfoo</pre>" or "<textarea>\nfoo</textarea>" be allowed in a polyglot document, despite being parsed and rendered differently? |
| 15:44 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: we need conformance requirements for polyglot documents |
| 15:44 | <Lachy> | Philip`, it would be technically conforming, but it would need to be documented as a compatibility issue |
| 15:46 | <gsnedders> | What does "floramors" mean? |
| 15:48 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: It means whatever the author wanted it to mean |
| 15:49 | gsnedders | blames Nabokov for dying in 1977 |
| 15:49 | <jgraham> | But only if the author was Lewis Carroll |
| 15:49 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: What if the author was V. Nabokov? |
| 15:49 | <Philip`> | Presumably it's a reference to http://www.wikia.com/dofus/Floramor_Root |
| 15:50 | <Lachy> | Philip`, I suppose issues like that are the type of things that could be checked by a (X)HTML lint, much like there were some partial Appendix C checkers I remember seeing. |
| 15:50 | <gsnedders> | "One clause in the Rules of the Club seemed to indicate that Eric, though frenziedly heterosexual, had enjoyed some tender ersatz fumblings with schoolmates at Note (a notorious preparatory school in that respect): at least two of the maximum number of inmates in the major floramors might be pretty boys" |
| 15:50 | <Lachy> | though, I don't recall where exactly, and I didn't see too many of htem |
| 15:50 | <Lachy> | *them |
| 15:50 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: It's Appendix A now! Get with it! |
| 15:50 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, in what spec? |
| 15:51 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: XHTML Media Types |
| 15:51 | <gsnedders> | (Second Edition) |
| 15:51 | <Lachy> | oh |
| 15:52 | <Philip`> | "The little chap saw it as a kind of fashionable club, with branches, or, in his poetical phrase, "Floramors," in the vicinity of cities and spas." |
| 15:52 | <Philip`> | (http://www.ada.auckland.ac.nz/ada23.htm) |
| 15:52 | <gsnedders> | What is it with Nabokov and this word I cannot find a definition of!? |
| 15:53 | Philip` | presumes that sentence is the definition |
| 15:53 | <gsnedders> | It is sorta |
| 15:53 | gsnedders | reads more context, and then it makes sense |
| 16:01 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: You're not meant to actually *read* books to make them make sense |
| 16:02 | <Lachy> | the person who volunteered to help redesign the HTML 5 Reference just got back to me with a few small changes. These element summaries look better now. http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/#the-html-element |
| 16:03 | <jgraham> | Philip`: Why read when you can ask on IRC? |
| 16:38 | <MikeSmith> | http://ajaxian.com/archives/de-crocking-html5 |
| 16:38 | <gsnedders> | MikeSmith: 404 |
| 16:38 | <MikeSmith> | yeah, I know |
| 16:38 | <MikeSmith> | intriguing title |
| 16:38 | <gsnedders> | Then why the link? :\ |
| 16:39 | <gsnedders> | http://ajaxian.com/archives/MikeSmith-is-awesome is an intriguing title which gives the same result |
| 16:39 | <MikeSmith> | well, that MikeSmith one is not actually linked to from teh Ajaxian home page |
| 16:39 | <MikeSmith> | unlike the De-Crocking HTML5 one |
| 16:40 | <MikeSmith> | btw, a more likely title at Ajaxian wuld be http://ajaxian.com/archives/MikeSmith-is-a-jaggoff |
| 16:41 | <MikeSmith> | which wouldn't be totally inaccurate |
| 16:41 | <Lachy> | what's a jaggoff? |
| 16:41 | <Lachy> | Is that a cleaner version of a more common insult? |
| 16:42 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: I don't know what it means. I heard it on the school bus on the way to school |
| 16:42 | <Philip`> | Maybe the non-existent blog post is referring to http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-TBPekxc1dLNy5DOloPfzVvFIVOWMB0li?p=978 (which is the worst URL ever, and also the server seems to be not responding)? |
| 16:43 | <Lachy> | are you sure they said jaggoff, and not jack off? |
| 16:44 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: yeah, I'm sure. They spelled it out for me. while punching me in the face and taking my milk money |
| 16:44 | <Philip`> | Perhaps they were talking about Jacobites |
| 16:44 | <MikeSmith> | or Maccabees |
| 16:45 | <MikeSmith> | Philip`: that might be the link if it were "Crocking HTML5".. but why "De-Crocking"? |
| 16:46 | <Philip`> | MikeSmith: I presume it to be some kind of pun, based on the idea of making it less of a crock |
| 16:47 | <MikeSmith> | by the way, if you put a quote from Doug into a presentation or e-mail message or whatever, that's called "Dropping some Crock" |
| 16:47 | <MikeSmith> | which you can modify with stuff like "classic Crock" |
| 16:48 | <MikeSmith> | e.g., "I dropped some classic Crock into that presentation for extra audience appeal" |
| 16:48 | <Lachy> | I never had anyone steal my milk money. Sure they beat me up, but never stole from me afterwards |
| 16:49 | <Dashiva> | We didn't have milk money. Parents paid per semester. |
| 16:49 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: you mean you never got punked either? on the way to school? |
| 16:49 | Philip` | wants to see Fraggle Crock |
| 16:49 | <MikeSmith> | Crock got some great quotes |
| 16:49 | <MikeSmith> | he knows how to put words together in memorable ways |
| 16:50 | <Philip`> | Like Einstein |
| 16:53 | <MikeSmith> | OK, I think I will make use of the remaining hours of the morning to sleep |
| 17:32 | <gsnedders> | Awesome. I got email saying UCAS track has changed (of course not saying how) and the website is down |
| 17:34 | <jgraham> | What is a UCAS track? Is it like a music track? Can you shuffle them or put them on repeat? |
| 17:35 | <Philip`> | Is it like a Mario Kart track? |
| 17:40 | <gsnedders> | weeee! |
| 17:40 | <gsnedders> | So I've got rejected for everywhere except Edinburgh and York :P |
| 17:44 | <jgraham> | That doesn't sound like a Mario Kart track. They usually tell me things like "you suck at mario kart". I guess it could be some kind of dance music track in which gsnedders' UCAS offers are read out over a funk-eh beat |
| 17:47 | <kig_> | United Canadian Air Service |
| 17:50 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: BTW both edinburgh and york are excellent unis |
| 17:50 | <jgraham> | afaik |
| 17:50 | <jgraham> | In particular I know a lot of super-bright people who went to edinburgh |
| 17:52 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Edi. has the issue of around half my school going there, which means I'd rather fail at getting away from some people |
| 17:52 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: And York didn't impress me anywhere near so much in terms of comp.sci. |
| 17:54 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: The people thing is likely to be less of a problem than you think, unless it is really a large number of people and you are doing similar courses |
| 17:54 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: On the open day last month I saw two people from the year above |
| 17:55 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Doing the same sourse? |
| 17:55 | <jgraham> | *course |
| 17:55 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: No, but bear in mind that courses in Scotland tend to be far broader — especially in the first two years |
| 17:55 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: One of them was doing engineering, and doing the first year physics courses… |
| 17:56 | Philip` | wonders if it ends up being like the college system in Cambridge where you're exposed to a few hundred random people and partly isolated from everyone else, or if it's much more mixed up |
| 17:57 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Much more mixed up |
| 17:57 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: There were about five people from my sixth form in my year at Cambridge. Two were doing the same course as me. I saw one of them sometimes |
| 17:58 | <jgraham> | (the other dropped out quite early) |
| 17:58 | <jgraham> | (none were at the same college) |
| 17:59 | <Philip`> | I think about a dozen people from my school/year went to Cambridge, and I saw one of them in Sainsbury's once, and I think I might have seen another on the other side of a road |
| 18:01 | <jgraham> | I saw one of the others (if there were indeed two others, there may only have been one) in Saiinsburies once. We chatted as we went round the supermarket, he got to the end, decided that the queues were too long, dumped his basket in the middle of an isle and left |
| 18:02 | <Philip`> | (There was an isle? Was the shop flooded?) |
| 18:04 | <jgraham> | :p |
| 18:22 | <jgraham> | http://stephencelis.com/2009/03/09/yahoo-for-the-future.html |
| 18:22 | <jgraham> | Seems to possibly be the blog post |
| 20:30 | <Hixie> | it would be useful if people would review http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/progress/Progress.html |
| 20:31 | gsnedders | looks briefly then screams at self: "DO NOT PROCRASTINATE." |
| 20:31 | <Hixie> | in particular with respect to conformance criteria |
| 20:31 | <Hixie> | other spec writers in particular would probably benefit from reviewing it |
| 20:32 | <Hixie> | (anne, lachy, zcorpan, heycam, ...) |
| 20:34 | <Lachy> | Hixie, ok |
| 20:36 | <Lachy> | I will do it later |
| 20:37 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: You said you wanted to be able to use distutils for anolis a while back. I wantz email. |
| 20:48 | <Philip`> | http://weblog.infoworld.com/enterprisedesktop/archives/2009/03/is_version_8_th.html - unsubstantiated rumours are great |
| 20:49 | <Philip`> | I suppose the people "insisting" that Microsoft is going to drop the IE engine and switch to Gazelle have failed to notice that Gazelle is a hacked-up version of IE7's rendering engine |
| 21:09 | <gsnedders> | uh, Hixie, you aware there's been no emails on commit-watchers for a while? |
| 21:12 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: There haven't been any commits for a while |
| 21:12 | gsnedders | wonders what has happened to Hixie |
| 21:14 | <Philip`> | Maybe he's got fed up with HTML 5 and decided to spend the rest of his life working on something more useful |
| 21:15 | <gsnedders> | http://stuff.gsnedders.com/w3c.refer |
| 21:18 | roc | discovers he has to schedule all meetings according to US Pacific time to prevent daylight savings time changes introducing conflicts |
| 22:31 | <Hixie> | 47% |
| 22:31 | <Hixie> | man this is tedious |
| 22:31 | <Hixie> | i sure hope that people appreciate this when i'm done! :-P |
| 22:37 | <Philip`> | Hixie: Why not commit the work-in-progress so people can review it and give feedback as to whether it's appreciable? |
| 22:40 | <Lachy> | Hixie, what exactly are you doing? |
| 22:40 | <Hixie> | Philip`: you can see the work in progress on the whatwg site |
| 22:41 | <Hixie> | Lachy: the "spec views" thing |
| 22:41 | <Hixie> | if you use firefox or opera, you can toggle the alternative style sheet to see the work so far |
| 22:41 | <Hixie> | i'll have some sort of ui for it in due course |
| 22:42 | <Philip`> | Hixie: But I wouldn't want to bother reading through the whole spec trying to guess which bits are new, since I'm lazy - I imagine it'd be easier with diffs to look at |
| 22:42 | <Hixie> | all the new bits are highlighted in green |
| 22:42 | <Philip`> | (but even if there were diffs, I'd still be too lazy to look at it, I suppose) |
| 22:42 | <Hixie> | so it's actually pretty obvious |
| 22:43 | <Hixie> | also there's an alternative style sheet that marks in red all the bits i took out for the author version |
| 22:43 | <Philip`> | I'm still too lazy to even look at the spec |
| 22:43 | <Hixie> | most of the diff is: |
| 22:43 | <Hixie> | + <div class="impl"> |
| 22:43 | <Hixie> | ... |
| 22:43 | <Hixie> | + </div> |
| 22:43 | <Philip`> | If you committed the changes then I'd be forced to read the commit email because otherwise it would taunt me continually with its unreadness |
| 22:44 | <Hixie> | the diff is up to 17000 lines |
| 22:44 | <Hixie> | so good luck with that |
| 22:44 | <Philip`> | You should have done it in small batches :-) |
| 22:45 | <Hixie> | i don't think the diff would be a useful way to review this change |
| 22:45 | <annevk> | anyone following public-css-testsuite? |
| 22:45 | <Hixie> | better to set the style sheet to "author only" and see if it works |
| 22:45 | <Philip`> | But I don't want to review it, I just want to complain |
| 22:45 | <Hixie> | oh well then i definitely shouldn't check it in :-P |
| 22:49 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: You shouldn't check anything in around Philip` :P |
| 22:51 | <Hixie> | 51%! |
| 22:58 | <Lachy> | Hixie, so are you just going through the whole specification and adding class=impl to all the implementation requiremetns? |
| 22:58 | <Lachy> | *requirements |
| 23:00 | <Lachy> | Hixie, if you're not checking it in, how are we able see the changes in the spec that we're seeing? |
| 23:00 | <Lachy> | without looking at the /working-copy |
| 23:01 | <Hixie> | i keep regenning the spec |
| 23:02 | <Hixie> | everything above the huge yellow-black dotted line is done |
| 23:02 | annevk | finds http://technews.am/conversations/ajaxian/de_crocking_html5 |
| 23:02 | <Hixie> | everything below it is not |
| 23:02 | <Lachy> | ok, so is it only the whatwg copy that's being updated, not the W3C copy? |
| 23:02 | <fakeolliej> | annevk: is your presentation going to be anywhere online? |
| 23:03 | Lachy | finds the big yellow line just above "4.10.4 The input element" |
| 23:03 | <Hixie> | annevk: seems to be about http://stephencelis.com/2009/03/09/yahoo-for-the-future.html |
| 23:03 | <annevk> | olliej, yeah, likely, not too much new things though |
| 23:05 | <Lachy> | Hixie, those class="domintro" sections look useful. I'm going to steal those for the HTML5 Reference |
| 23:06 | <annevk> | thanks Hixie |
| 23:06 | <Lachy> | but it's going to be hard to get a script to extract them and work out which section they need to be inserted in the reference |
| 23:07 | <annevk> | http://cwilso.com/2009/03/10/sam-ruby/ fwiw (no real news) |
| 23:08 | <Hixie> | Lachy: yeah |
| 23:08 | <Hixie> | Lachy: my biggest problem is going to be trying to work out how to do link fixup when the impl bits are hidden |
| 23:09 | <Lachy> | http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/03/10/1942232&from=rss |
| 23:09 | <Lachy> | That's going to suck if there's any truth to that rumour |
| 23:11 | <roc> | suck? why? |
| 23:12 | <Lachy> | well, actually, reading the article instead of just the slashdot summary, it may not suck so much. But if they adopt webkit, then that will reduce the competition in the market |
| 23:12 | <roc> | having both HTML WG co-chairs work for Microsoft, who have shown no interest in most of HTML5, just seems bizarre |
| 23:12 | <Philip`> | The comment there about Gazelle seems to be based on completely failing to understand what Gazelle is |
| 23:13 | <Lachy> | but if they adopt the new Gazelle rendering engine that the article talks about, then it keeps the competition, but it gives web developers a whole new browser engine and set of bugs to contend with |
| 23:13 | <Philip`> | There isn't a new Gazelle rendering engine |
| 23:13 | <roc> | Gazelle doesn't have a new rendering engine |
| 23:13 | <olliej> | Lachy: i doubt they'd adopt webkit, we actually like standards |
| 23:13 | <roc> | Gazelle uses Trident |
| 23:13 | olliej | hides from any ms folk around |
| 23:14 | <Philip`> | It claims to use IE7 in particular |
| 23:14 | <roc> | it's possible they could write a new rendering engine in C# or something and use it in Gazelle |
| 23:14 | <Philip`> | (presumably modified a bit) |
| 23:14 | <Lachy> | roc, the article seems to indicate that Gazelle is a new engine. Not just a new browser that uses trident |
| 23:15 | <roc> | it's wrong |
| 23:15 | <Lachy> | but I don't know anything about it. I haven't heard of it before. |
| 23:15 | <Philip`> | Lachy: That's because the person who wrote the article doesn't know what they're talking about :-) |
| 23:15 | <Lachy> | Philip`, that's likely :-) |
| 23:15 | <Hixie> | the odds of microsoft dropping trident after spending all the effort on IE8 seem remote to me |
| 23:15 | <Philip`> | Lachy: http://research.microsoft.com/apps/pubs/default.aspx?id=79655 |
| 23:15 | <Philip`> | Lachy: though the abstract seems pretty rubbish because I didn't understand it at all when I read it |
| 23:16 | <Philip`> | Lachy: but the actual content makes more sense |
| 23:17 | <roc> | Microsoft dropping Trident for Gecko or Webkit would make a lot of sense, but it's very hard to imagine |
| 23:17 | <Philip`> | "Instead of undertaking a significant effort of writing our own HTML parser, renderer, and JavaScript engine, we borrow these components from Internet Explorer 7 in a way that does not compromise security. Relying on IE’s Trident renderer has a big benefit of inheriting IE’s page rendering compatibility and performance." |
| 23:18 | <roc> | except they go on to trash compatibility and performance |
| 23:18 | <Philip`> | Well, sure, but that's better than not even starting with compatibility and performance :-) |
| 23:19 | <Philip`> | and it only takes an extra 15MB of memory and 0.5 seconds to load the Google front page |
| 23:19 | <Philip`> | and computers are getting faster every day! |
| 23:22 | <Philip`> | Hmm, they make it sound like most of that performance loss is just due to an inefficient prototype implementation |
| 23:22 | <Philip`> | so it wouldn't be so much of a problem in a real implementation |
| 23:23 | <Lachy> | If Microsoft do anything with the architecture of IE, even if they hypothetically did replace the rendering engine, then I really doubt they would drop the Internet Explorer brand. So I think that slashdot summary is completly wrong in every way |
| 23:24 | Philip` | is shocked |
| 23:25 | <Lachy> | indeed. I'm sure this is the first time in history that a slashdot summary has ever been wrong. |
| 23:25 | <annevk> | heycam, note that if <script> does CDATA parsing CDATA sections will no longer be recognized |
| 23:25 | <annevk> | heycam, unless you create something weird such as CDATAorCDATASection parsing |
| 23:27 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: You got anything against me using a WHATWG wiki page for Anolis biblio? |
| 23:27 | <Hixie> | no go ahead |
| 23:28 | <Lachy> | annevk, if we did, authors would just need to use the same technique they do to make <script> compatible with both HTML and XHTML by using commented CDATA sections. <script>//<![CDATA[ ... //]]></script> |
| 23:29 | <Lachy> | but then that prevents simply copying and pasting exsisting SVG images without modification into HTML |
| 23:29 | <Lachy> | if they contain scripts with cdata sections |
| 23:30 | <heycam> | annevk, right, i don't think making <svg:script> do CDATA parsing is the right solution |
| 23:30 | <Lachy> | I would prefer it if we did it so that they had consistent parsing |
| 23:31 | <Lachy> | I'm not a big fan of introducing such XML-like parsing rules into HTML |
| 23:31 | <Lachy> | and so they had consistent rules for authors |
| 23:31 | <heycam> | i kinda of like having CDATA parsing being made explicit |
| 23:32 | <heycam> | means i don't have to remember which elements have CDATA content models and which don't |
| 23:32 | <Lachy> | sure, but now you have to remember that <script> has CDATA parsing when in HTML, but not when it's in an SVG fragment. I think that is harder than just remembering that <script> is always CDATA |
| 23:33 | <heycam> | perhaps :) |
| 23:34 | <heycam> | most SVG content uses "<