| 06:06 | MikeSmith | contemplates jumping into the <time> thread on whatwg list, decides against it |
| 06:24 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: you around? |
| 06:57 | jwalden | wonders how many people who attempted http://blag.xkcd.com/2009/02/11/a-math-problem-2/ did so using a URL like data:text/html,%3Ctextarea%20rows=50%20cols=100%3E as a scratchpad |
| 06:57 | <jwalden> | I'm such a wacko |
| 07:20 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: I'm around now |
| 07:21 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: accesskey is still in the WHATTF schema but did not survive the integration of WF2 into HTML5 |
| 07:21 | <MikeSmith> | you OK with removing it? |
| 07:23 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: removing it is ok |
| 07:24 | <hsivonen> | eek. lots of <time> email |
| 07:24 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: OK |
| 07:26 | <MikeSmith> | and that <time> discussion seems to be looping through the same 2 or 3 people |
| 07:26 | <MikeSmith> | wonder how many other people are paying attention to that discussion, or care |
| 07:27 | <hsivonen> | I care a bit, but for now, I trust Hixie's gatekeeping abilities. I'll scream when I find several historic calendars on my validation todo list. |
| 07:35 | <jwalden> | expanding the range of representable dates seems fine |
| 07:35 | <jwalden> | supporting alternate date schemes is insane |
| 07:36 | <jwalden> | although, honestly, I'm not sure how much value I see in <time> over any number of other elements to semanticize otherwise-meaningless markup |
| 07:37 | <hsivonen> | jwalden: adding BCE dates to <input type=date> seems like implementation and QA cost without a compelling upside |
| 07:37 | <hsivonen> | I bet that would be the next step after <time> |
| 07:38 | <jwalden> | frankly, if it were up to me I think I'd just constrain range to that of ECMAScript and be done with it |
| 07:38 | <jwalden> | whatever that range is |
| 07:40 | <jwalden> | but this isn't something I care much about either way anyway |
| 07:40 | <jwalden> | beyond wishing people would say their keep and shut up |
| 07:41 | hsivonen | resists the urge to reply to chaals' <time> email |
| 07:42 | jwalden | high-fives hsivonen for acting so :-) |
| 08:26 | <zcorpan> | http://www.cmswire.com/cms/web-content/html-5-supersedes-web-forms-20-004054.php |
| 08:44 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, if you did respond to chaals' <time> email, what would you say? |
| 08:45 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: I'd ask about loosely coupled without bilateral agreement consuming software use cases |
| 08:51 | <Lachy> | if the spec does end up allowing BCE years, then I look forward to seeing errors of the form <time datetime="-0001-01-01">1 BCE</time> (due to the year 0000 complication) |
| 08:52 | <jwalden> | ...and window.event bites MS again when some MessageEvent properties are readonly <http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2009/03/12/site-compatibility-and-ie8.aspx>; |
| 08:53 | <jwalden> | although, if their documentation is to be believed, only .source is readonly, probably because they didn't want to break people using .data (or the like) properties |
| 08:54 | jwalden | really doesn't understand why they don't bite the bullet and at least implement proper event-passing, if not full w3 event model compliance |
| 08:57 | <zcorpan> | clearly getting markup parsed and serialized correctly is a hard problem when using text-based templates. i tried cmsms and found various problems with using the wrong encoding, expanding entities when they shouldn't, etc, and even their bug tracker failed to escape markup in the bug heading |
| 08:58 | <zcorpan> | (http://dev.cmsmadesimple.org/bug/view/3155 ) |
| 08:59 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: you filed an XSS hole as a bug report that runs JS? :-) |
| 08:59 | <zcorpan> | yeah :) although i maybe filed it in the wrong place |
| 09:02 | <annevk> | http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/03/12-minutes.html o_O |
| 09:07 | zcorpan | wonders what the "old" namespace is |
| 09:11 | <Lachy> | zcorpan, AFAICT, the "old" namespace refers to the 1999 namespace |
| 09:13 | <Lachy> | it's strange how they were discussing the MIME type too. I wasn't aware anyone had complained about the reuse of the XHTML MIME type for XHTML2. Only the namespace. |
| 09:18 | <annevk> | so apparently not defining error handling for character leads to XSS issues |
| 09:19 | <annevk> | IE when seeing a UTF-8 byte that indicates two more bytes follow will replace all three bytes with a replacement character where other browsers just replace the first |
| 09:19 | <annevk> | so if you insert such a byte just before the end of the attribute you can do stuff |
| 09:22 | <jgraham> | annevk: Neat |
| 09:27 | <hsivonen> | wouldn't application/xml make sense for XHTML2 as the MIME type if XHTML2 is what it says it is? |
| 09:27 | <hsivonen> | did I read the TAG minutes correctly that the TAG isn't asking XHTML5 to change its namespace? |
| 09:29 | <zcorpan> | hmm http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-dial-primer-20071101/intro1.png |
| 09:30 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: seems like a model totally obsoleted by the iPhone, Opera Mini and Opera on Wii |
| 09:31 | <annevk> | hsivonen, dunno, I read it in a way as that they are unclear as to what should happen |
| 09:31 | <zcorpan> | maybe it's just me but [HTML5+SVG+CSS (server)] --> [HTML5+SVG+CSS (all clients)] seems simpler |
| 09:33 | <jgraham> | That diagram is kinda crazy |
| 09:34 | <jgraham> | Why would you send XHTML to desktops but HTML to WebTV? |
| 09:35 | <jgraham> | And why the obsession with the idea that mobiles can only do XHTML-MP desite the fact that there are literally millions of mobiles with HTML support |
| 09:35 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: it's the official motivation XHTML-MP, so it must be true |
| 09:36 | <zcorpan> | i'm thinking of registring a .mobi domain, but i don't know what it should be |
| 09:36 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: For any reason? |
| 09:36 | <zcorpan> | for my personal site |
| 09:36 | <zcorpan> | that i don't yet have |
| 09:36 | <jgraham> | Ah |
| 09:37 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: what kind of content do you plan on serving? |
| 09:37 | <annevk> | zcorpan, http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=4055 has a spammer |
| 09:37 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: can they revoke your .mobi domain if your content isn't MobileOk? |
| 09:37 | <jgraham> | I was hoping that you could register doesw3cthinkimevil.mobi that just runs XHTML-MP tests and says "Yes" if they fail and "No" if they pass |
| 09:38 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: i doubt it |
| 09:38 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: just a blog or something |
| 09:39 | <zcorpan> | annevk: thanks |
| 09:39 | <hsivonen> | I suppose I should make sure I only read zcorpan's blog on the bus to make sure the mobile context is right :-) |
| 09:40 | jgraham | reads a cople of emails from the <time> thread, finds a debate about the meaning of the year 0, gives up |
| 09:41 | <zcorpan> | jgraham: too long and i want other content than just "Yes" :) |
| 09:41 | <zcorpan> | but keep em coming |
| 09:41 | <zcorpan> | i was thinking of spacergifs.mobi |
| 09:42 | <jgraham> | tablelayout.mobi |
| 09:42 | <zcorpan> | yeah or nestedtables.mobi |
| 09:42 | <jgraham> | Can you get html.mobi |
| 09:42 | <zcorpan> | already taken |
| 09:42 | <hsivonen> | my top mobile destinations are the damowmow portal and planet intertwingly, neither of which are .mobi :-/ |
| 09:43 | <hsivonen> | oh, and krijnhoetmer.nl, of course |
| 09:44 | <annevk> | "thistldsucks.mobi" is available! |
| 09:44 | <annevk> | -- http://mtld.mobi/domain/whois?q=domain/whois |
| 09:47 | <jgraham> | feff.mobi? |
| 09:49 | <zcorpan> | jgraham: that's available but i don't get the joke |
| 09:50 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: Not really a joke, just a BOM Which doesn't quite seem like what you are looking for but does have the practical advantage of being easier to type on a mobile keypad |
| 09:53 | <zcorpan> | ok... any other suggestions? :) |
| 09:53 | <hsivonen> | html5.mobi is taken :-( presumably by a squatter, since there's no HTTP server |
| 09:54 | <annevk> | iusethistldforlaughs |
| 09:54 | <jgraham> | dotmobiftw.mobi |
| 09:55 | <annevk> | spacergif.mobi is still pretty good I think |
| 09:55 | zcorpan | wants an indirect reference to .mobi |
| 09:55 | <zcorpan> | yeah |
| 09:55 | <zcorpan> | gif or gifs? |
| 09:56 | <zcorpan> | i guess i'll settle for the shorter |
| 09:56 | <annevk> | it's a better blog title I think |
| 09:56 | <annevk> | (the singular) |
| 09:57 | <zcorpan> | yep. |
| 10:01 | <zcorpan> | ok registered |
| 10:02 | <annevk> | if you take some kind of hosting account somewhere i can prolly transfer complete control of simon.html5.org to you |
| 10:02 | <annevk> | alternatively you can use more space on my server |
| 10:02 | <zcorpan> | i'll use the same host as my mom :) |
| 10:03 | <annevk> | "server" |
| 10:04 | jgraham | never got that offer |
| 10:04 | <jgraham> | :-p |
| 10:05 | <annevk> | here it is :) |
| 10:09 | jgraham | has discovered that registereing a domain name you don't know how to pronounce makes giving out your email address harder |
| 11:01 | <beowulf> | talking to the tld about xhtml probably won't help win the .mobi is evil argument |
| 11:02 | <beowulf> | they're bound by contract so to speak |
| 11:04 | <beowulf> | i believe they see html5 as a good path forward, but they have to do what they're told |
| 11:41 | <hsivonen> | beowulf: who is "they" and who is bound by contract? |
| 11:43 | <beowulf> | hsivonen: afaik .mobi, the company that runs the tld and enforces the xhtml-ness, are bound by a contract with ICANN |
| 11:43 | <beowulf> | i could be wrong though |
| 11:43 | <hsivonen> | beowulf: bound by contract with ICANN to enforce XHTML-ness??? |
| 11:44 | <hsivonen> | beowulf: Gandi's registration services don't warn me that .mobi requires XHTML. (Or if they do warn, it's not obvious.) |
| 11:44 | <beowulf> | hsivonen: again, maybe i'm wrong, but that tld has a contractual obligation to ensure the domains use xhtml |
| 11:44 | <beowulf> | s/,// |
| 11:44 | <hsivonen> | beowulf: wow |
| 11:45 | <beowulf> | so even if they were accutely aware of the state of the web, say for example because they spider all .mobi domains, they couldn't do much about it |
| 11:46 | <beowulf> | and they may also be aware of the state of mobile browsers wrt xml parsers |
| 11:46 | <beowulf> | but maybe their hands are tied |
| 11:46 | <hsivonen> | beowulf: is the contract because ICANN wouldn't have minted a new TLD without a story telling how it is special? |
| 11:47 | <beowulf> | hsivonen: i wouldn't know |
| 11:47 | <Philip`> | http://www.opensrs.com/resources/documentation/opensrsrwi/mobi_compliance.htm |
| 11:47 | <jgraham> | http://mtld.mobi/ is text/html with an XHTML doctype |
| 11:48 | <jgraham> | (not XHTML-MP) |
| 11:48 | <beowulf> | there's enough wiggle room in the contract to serve XHTML like HTML as text/html, i guess |
| 11:49 | <Philip`> | jgraham: Are you seeing a non-mobile version of that page? |
| 11:49 | <jgraham> | Philip`: Maybe |
| 11:49 | <beowulf> | jgraham: the mtld site sends different content to a desktop than it does to a mobile device |
| 11:50 | <Philip`> | jgraham: With Opera 9.63, I see a mobile-optimised (i.e. ugly) page with <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//WAPFORUM//DTD XHTML Mobile 1.0//EN" "http://www.wapforum.org/DTD/xhtml-mobile10.dtd">; |
| 11:50 | <Philip`> | jgraham: but with FF2 I see one with lots of images and stuff |
| 11:50 | <annevk> | It's unclear whether those rules are actually enforced. E.g. opera.mobi has redirected to opera.com for longer than 60 days |
| 11:50 | <jgraham> | Philip`: What mime type? |
| 11:50 | <Philip`> | jgraham: How do I find out? |
| 11:50 | <beowulf> | annevk: as i understand it the rules are not currently enforced |
| 11:50 | <jgraham> | You are supposed to use application/vnd.wap.xhtml+xml |
| 11:50 | <jgraham> | Philip`: Dragonfly? |
| 11:51 | <beowulf> | but maybe they've come to a point where enforcing the rules would cause massive problems |
| 11:51 | Philip` | tries View Source and inserting non-XML stuff, and it seems to parse it like HTML instead of fatally erring |
| 11:52 | <beowulf> | and maybe the very idea of trying to enforce those rules brings up questions about the whole xhtml idea, who knows |
| 11:52 | beowulf | speculates wildly |
| 11:52 | <Philip`> | jgraham: (I've got no idea how to view HTTP headers in Dragonfly, and can't find any relevant buttons) |
| 11:54 | <jgraham> | Philip`: Oh. Myabe we don't support that then |
| 11:54 | annevk | finds out about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.tel |
| 11:54 | jgraham | couldn't really remember |
| 11:56 | Philip` | can't quite tell whether .tel is an abuse of DNS, or a decent way of using it |
| 11:56 | <beowulf> | ICANN, making money out of DNS since 1998 |
| 11:56 | <annevk> | with what they're charging it looks like a scam |
| 11:58 | <Philip`> | annevk: They're only charging a lot at the beginning - the standard rate seems much more normal |
| 11:58 | <Philip`> | http://iwi.gandibar.net/post/2008/11/26/Launching-of-TEL says €14/yr after March 24 |
| 11:59 | beowulf | wonders if they've resevered a bunch of names to auction |
| 12:00 | <annevk> | I'm surprised this hasn't come up in the TAG |
| 12:00 | jgraham | wonders how you determine trademark holders given that multiple entities may legitimatley have the same trademark |
| 12:00 | <Philip`> | jgraham: "first-come, first-served", it says |
| 12:01 | <beowulf> | jgraham: wipo |
| 12:02 | <Philip`> | (and trademarks must have been registered before 30 May 2008) |
| 12:02 | <Philip`> | (so you can't just register one in an obscure country and then immediately buy the .tel domain) |
| 12:02 | <beowulf> | didn't ICANN recently say they'd allow anyone to set up a tld? so foo.html5 might be possible in the future? |
| 12:03 | <Philip`> | beowulf: That was proposed and seemed to have significant support within ICANN |
| 12:03 | <Philip`> | and I guess the support is completely unrelated to the fact you have to pay ICANN a zillion dollars for a TLD |
| 12:03 | <jgraham> | I thought it was confirmed. But I heard that on /. so I guess it is probably not true |
| 12:04 | <beowulf> | http://www.icann.org/en/announcements/announcement-2-23oct08-en.htm |
| 12:04 | <beowulf> | "a per applicant fee of $US185,000" |
| 12:04 | <jgraham> | "innovation, Choice and Diversity" |
| 12:05 | <beowulf> | there's about 185000 members of the w3c + whatwg, $1 each and ... |
| 12:05 | <annevk> | didn't congress or so block that? |
| 12:06 | <Philip`> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TLD#cite_ref-7 - "the U.S. Department of Commerce reiterated the statement that it has "no plans to transition management of the authoritative root zone file to ICANN."" |
| 12:06 | <jgraham> | I will believe in the unlimited tlds thing more once people get the idea that webservers don't all start www. |
| 12:07 | <Philip`> | jgraham: I'd much rather live in a world where all web sites start with www. than one in which all web sites start with http:// or one in which it's impossible to easily tell that a certain string is meant to be a web site URL |
| 12:07 | <Philip`> | (http:// is bad because it's hard to pronounce) |
| 12:07 | <annevk> | "The total fee per applicant takes into account close to $US13 million invested by ICANN since October 2007 to put the design of the implementation program in place." |
| 12:07 | <Philip`> | (and people on TV read it out in really annoying ways) |
| 12:07 | <beowulf> | jgraham: a local company here spent some time on a new url, u.tv (the company is called UTV), no-one got it |
| 12:07 | <annevk> | whoa |
| 12:08 | <beowulf> | had to change all the advertising to www.u.tv |
| 12:08 | <annevk> | those guys must be making shitloads of money |
| 12:08 | <beowulf> | annevk: yes |
| 12:08 | <Philip`> | annevk: Charging people multiple dollars per year for the privilege of putting a few hundred bytes in a database is a pretty good business model if you can make it work for you |
| 12:09 | <jgraham> | Philip`: We're kind of stuck with the http:// thing though. www isn't even particccularly easy to say |
| 12:09 | <beowulf> | 20 cents per domain |
| 12:10 | <beowulf> | per year |
| 12:10 | <Philip`> | Oh, okay |
| 12:10 | <beowulf> | still a lot though :) |
| 12:11 | <Philip`> | The distributed nature of DNS is a bit pointless really - I think Google should set up its own domain name system, where you connect directly to a Google data center's IP address and ask it to look up details in its centralised database |
| 12:11 | <Philip`> | It'd be much easier that way |
| 12:11 | <Philip`> | and it could replace ICANN |
| 12:12 | <Lachy> | Philip`, that would create a single failure point for the entire web |
| 12:12 | jgraham | mutters something about tinyurl |
| 12:13 | <Lachy> | tinyurls suck for more reasons than that |
| 12:13 | <Philip`> | Lachy: But that single point is Google, and we can trust Google to not go down |
| 12:14 | <jgraham> | Lachy: I never claimed otherwise. But it would be really worrying if anyone cared about twitter archives |
| 12:14 | <Lachy> | of course, because Google has proven that it can successfully last a decade, and so that means it can last forever. |
| 12:15 | jgraham | gets a reading on his irony-o-meter |
| 12:15 | beowulf | picks the needle from jgraham's meter out of the wall |
| 12:15 | Lachy | wonders how many companies of any kind have lasted more than century or two |
| 12:16 | <Philip`> | If Google was ever going to collapse and take the whole internet with it, it could just get a government bail-out |
| 12:16 | <beowulf> | the vatican |
| 12:16 | <Philip`> | Nintendo |
| 12:16 | <Lachy> | the vatican isn't a company |
| 12:16 | <beowulf> | the vatican to replace ICANN |
| 12:16 | <Lachy> | Guiness |
| 12:16 | <jgraham> | Lachy: They have a better business model than most companies |
| 12:17 | <Lachy> | who? Guiness or the Vatican? |
| 12:17 | <jgraham> | The vatican :) |
| 12:17 | <Philip`> | Nintendo could replace DNS names with friend codes, so you can only visit web sites if you've already met the webmaster and exchanged codes, as a way of constructing a trust network |
| 12:18 | <jgraham> | Nintendo could identify websites by Mii so to go to the Microsoft website, for example, you'd have to find the Microsoft Mii in the Mii Plaza |
| 12:19 | <beowulf> | i think that would look like a middle ages battlefield |
| 12:20 | <beowulf> | dead mii's everywhere, a few standing |
| 12:20 | <jgraham> | The slashdot Mii would be throwing rocks at the Microsoft Mii who would be blissfully oblivious |
| 12:20 | <Lachy> | I'm not sure what the Mii plaza is (though I assume it's something to do with the Wii) |
| 12:21 | <jgraham> | The Reddit Mii would be behind the bikesheds with the 4chan Mii |
| 12:23 | Philip` | thinks someone should port Dungeon Keeper to the Wii, and replace the characters with Miis so you can slap them around with your Hand of Evil and drop them in the torture chamber |
| 12:23 | <Philip`> | That would much more fun than going bowling with them |
| 12:42 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: what's correct behavior for 'copy' in http://simon.html5.org/dump/html5-canvas-cheat-sheet.html ? |
| 12:44 | <Philip`> | zcorpan: You should get just a red circle, because the circle is drawn onto an infinite transparent plane and then that plane is composited (with 'copy') onto the canvas and replaces all the pixels |
| 12:46 | <Philip`> | http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/results.html#2d.composite.uncovered.fill.copy - only Opera matches the spec, other people don't affect pixels that are outside the shape that's being painted |
| 12:46 | <kig> | anyone want to write tests for a [part of] hundred opengl canvas functions :>? goals for the tests (in the order of importance): crash the driver, hang the driver, crash the browser, read data that doesn't belong to the current gl context, read non-SOP data, hang the browser, hang the page, find stuff that doesn't work like it should |
| 12:47 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: so in firefox and webkit it's effectively the same as source-over? |
| 12:48 | <Philip`> | kig: Are there any expectations that people use modern or high-quality drivers, or does it include the thousands of many-years-old horribly-buggy drivers that people use in reality? |
| 12:49 | <Philip`> | kig: (because it's probably much easier to cause crashes in the latter case, but much harder to test) |
| 12:49 | <kig> | modern high-quality drivers, i don't expect this thing to see the light of day before the modern high-quality drivers have become old |
| 12:51 | <kig> | http://github.com/kig/canvas3d-tests + i guess i should put my current fork of the extension up somewhere |
| 12:52 | <Philip`> | I encountered one bug a year ago which I think was caused by calling getActiveUniform with invalid parameters, which raised a GL error, and the Mozilla code ignored the error and returned an uninitialised output variable, so maybe nobody's fixed that yet and it should be tested |
| 12:52 | <kig> | it's likely, yeah |
| 12:52 | <Philip`> | but I think I've currently stopped caring about canvas3d so I don't want to do any work on it now :-) |
| 12:52 | <kig> | none of the methods in the binding check for gl errors |
| 12:52 | <kig> | aight |
| 12:55 | <kig> | my plan for the rest of this spring is getting the gles20 canvas solid and writing an openal binding and making a website that only works if you have both |
| 12:55 | <kig> | then i have truly transcended to the realm of oh god why |
| 12:56 | <Philip`> | It'll be almost as useful as VRML! |
| 12:56 | <Philip`> | except with more hardware incompatibility issues |
| 13:01 | <kig> | i heard irc rumors mozilla js people are going to use boehm's incremental mark&sweep instead of MMgc |
| 13:01 | <kig> | either way, maybe the 100+ ms gc pauses will be history in the future |
| 13:04 | <zcorpan> | <img>, <input type=image>, <embed>, <object>, <video>... are there other ways to embed an image? |
| 13:05 | <zcorpan> | for which 'image-fit' is testable? |
| 13:05 | zcorpan | notes that generated content is not since you can't actually select the replaced element |
| 13:06 | <zcorpan> | <svg>? |
| 13:07 | <Philip`> | <canvas/><script>drawImage(foo)</script> ? |
| 13:07 | <zcorpan> | maybe |
| 13:19 | <jgraham> | http://www.marcozehe.de/2009/03/13/happy-birthday-world-wide-web/ |
| 13:37 | zcorpan | learns that svg 1.1 is more useful a reference than svg 1.2 for preserveAspectRatio |
| 13:38 | <zcorpan> | s/1.2/1.2 Tiny/ |
| 13:44 | <krijnh> | hsivonen: thanks, I feel honored :) |
| 13:45 | <annevk> | it's in my top 5 as well :) |
| 13:46 | <krijnh> | Aaw :) |
| 13:47 | <krijnh> | It's not even in my top 5.. I must be doing something wrong |
| 13:47 | <jgraham> | krijnh: Nowhere near my top 5 |
| 13:47 | <jgraham> | Actully I don't really know but I doubt it |
| 13:48 | <jgraham> | Since I just use the scrollback in irssi most of the time |
| 13:49 | zcorpan | has http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg as a speed dial |
| 13:50 | <krijnh> | You're all getting payed to have that though, I'm having enough trouble already staying up to date on the mailinglists :) |
| 13:51 | Philip` | has memorised how to spell krijnhoetmer |
| 13:51 | <Philip`> | Nobody pays me :-( |
| 13:51 | <krijnh> | Pronunciation as well? |
| 13:51 | <krijnh> | They don't? |
| 13:51 | <krijnh> | Wow |
| 13:51 | <Philip`> | (Well, not for anything web-related) |
| 13:51 | <krijnh> | Correction then, you must be doing something wrong! |
| 13:51 | <Philip`> | Pronunciation is trickier :-) |
| 13:53 | Philip` | reads it as something like "kreen hote-mer" |
| 13:53 | <krijnh> | Cryin' hoodmer |
| 13:55 | <Philip`> | Ah |
| 13:55 | <Philip`> | Close enough ;-) |
| 13:55 | <krijnh> | Yeah, not :) |
| 13:56 | <Philip`> | If I ever need to refer to you during verbal communication, I can say "that IRC logs guy" and not worry about pronunciation |
| 13:56 | <krijnh> | Hehe |
| 14:00 | <krijnh> | That's actually how annevk calls me IRL |
| 14:05 | hsivonen | didn't know the whattf repo had ViewVC associated with it: https://svn8.cvsdude.com/vvc/whattf/syntax?view=revision&revision=385 |
| 14:09 | <hsivonen> | wow. Gecko has had... interesting... bugs related to document.write... |
| 14:39 | <Lachy> | is anyone here aware of a simple to use templating system that I can use with my varius python scripts to generate things like those tables in the HTML 5 Reference? |
| 14:41 | <Lachy> | I want something that allows me to extract the data from various sources, such as the spec or other config files, and input that into a templating engine, which then populates the given template file with the data |
| 14:43 | <Lachy> | I found cheetah, which looks like it may work. Anyone had any experience with that? http://www.cheetahtemplate.org |
| 14:43 | <beowulf> | isn't there a python port of Template Toolkit? |
| 14:43 | beowulf | goes to look |
| 14:44 | <jgraham> | Lachy: I use Genshi a lot |
| 14:44 | <jgraham> | Lachy: Mako is also supposed to be good |
| 14:45 | <beowulf> | http://template-toolkit.org/python/index.html |
| 14:45 | <jgraham> | Lachy: I think cheetah is a bit old |
| 14:45 | <beowulf> | TT is the best templating system I have used |
| 14:47 | <jgraham> | The big advantage of genshi is that it is (X|HT)ML centric so it gets things like escaping right be default |
| 14:47 | <Lachy> | ok, I'll investigate both of those. |
| 14:47 | Philip` | has used TT in Perl, but doesn't really like it, mostly because it has weird syntax rules (like you can't use expressions in function arguments) |
| 14:48 | <Philip`> | Lachy: Can't you just use Python print statements? |
| 14:52 | <Lachy> | Philip`, that's what I did with the character entity reference generator, but found that to be less flexible, and it required doing things like print header-file, loop to print each line with the data, print footer-file, instead of just having one template file and declaring which section needs to be repeated. |
| 14:55 | <Lachy> | it also requires me to reinvent the wheel each time I want to do it with a new template and new set of data, as do my more recent approaches, and I want to avoid that |
| 15:07 | <jgraham> | Lachy: BTW, if it makes a difference, I can offer help with Genshi, less so with anything else :) |
| 15:15 | <Lachy> | jgraham, ok, thanks |
| 15:15 | <neuroo> | davidb_: do you know any place where I can get the current coverage of html5 by firefox? |
| 15:18 | <davidb_> | neuroo: hi sorry 1 sec |
| 15:27 | <davidb> | neuroo: i don't know, sorry. we don't seem to have a tracker bug for html5 coverage |
| 15:27 | <neuroo> | okay, I actually looked for it and didn't find anything :/ |
| 15:27 | <neuroo> | any timeline plan or something for the support? would you be aware for that? |
| 15:28 | <jcranmer> | well, I suppose HTML5 needs to be complete before it can be fully implemented |
| 15:28 | <neuroo> | true, but well, they actaully started to support audio/video |
| 15:29 | <jcranmer> | someone's working on an HTML5 parser |
| 15:30 | <annevk> | there is http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Implementations_in_Web_browsers |
| 15:31 | <hsivonen> | neuroo: it's hard to track coverage without a test suite |
| 15:31 | <hsivonen> | neuroo: but the theory is that the annotation boxes in the whatwg copy of the spec track coverage in Firefox and other browsers |
| 15:32 | <hsivonen> | neuroo: the practice may be different, of course... |
| 15:32 | <neuroo> | okay, thanks :) |
| 15:34 | <zcorpan> | i think the annotation boxes should be reasonably accurate currently |
| 15:34 | <Lachy> | jgraham, if I'm understanding the documentation correctly, is the easiest way for me to proceed to create a template that contains stuff like <tr py:for="category in categories"><td>${category.tagname}</td><td>...</td></tr> |
| 15:35 | <Lachy> | ... then then create an array of dictionaries like this: categories = [{tagname: "html", flow: "yes", phrasing: "no", ...}, {...}] |
| 15:35 | <Lachy> | and then feed it all through Genshi? |
| 15:36 | <jgraham> | Lachy: That would work for sure |
| 15:36 | <Lachy> | cool, then this is perfect for my needs |
| 15:37 | <hsivonen> | should http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#apis-in-html-documents say Safari implements it? |
| 15:40 | <Lachy> | template is done http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/utils/categories-template.html |
| 15:40 | <Lachy> | now I just need to finish writing the script to create the dictionary |
| 15:41 | Lachy | decides to ignore the fact that that file is XML containing namespaces served as text/html :-) |
| 15:44 | <Lachy> | hmm, it would probably be useful if I wrote a single script that deals with all my templates so I can somehow pipe the output of other scripts that collect the data, into that one script that populates the template |
| 15:45 | <Lachy> | something like this: python categories.py | python template.py templatefile.html > output.html |
| 15:46 | <Lachy> | I wonder what the most appropriate format would be to serialise from categories.py (in this case) which can then be easily parsed by template.py |
| 15:51 | <jgraham> | Lachy: You could just use pickle or something |
| 15:51 | <jgraham> | If you don't care about human readable intermediate formats |
| 15:54 | <Lachy> | what's pickle? |
| 15:55 | <Lachy> | it definitely doesn't need to be a human readable intermediate format. It just needs to be something I can easily use for each of my scripts I have for extracting things from the spec and other sources |
| 15:55 | <jgraham> | Lachy: In this case it's a way of serializing python objects as strings |
| 15:56 | <jgraham> | Like JSON but different |
| 15:56 | <Lachy> | ok, that sounds like the most appropriate thing to use |
| 15:56 | <jgraham> | In that you can serialise more objects but it doesn't pretend to be readable |
| 15:57 | <jgraham> | just import pickle; it's in the stdlib |
| 15:58 | <Lachy> | ok, I found http://docs.python.org/library/pickle.html |
| 16:02 | <Lachy> | wow, that format really is unreadable by humans. I just did a simple test serialising an array of dictionaries |
| 16:10 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/?slow-browser#video redirects to http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/video.html#video instead of http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/video.html?slow-browser#video |
| 16:13 | <Philip`> | It is possible that one could claim that's a problem with the redirection script I wrote and therefore should be considered my problem, but Hixie added the ?slow-browser feature so I will claim that it is his problem instead |
| 16:40 | <Philip`> | kig: For uniforms, I kind of like the idea of overloading setters on the shader object, so you can say "sp.diffuseColor = [1,0,1]" and it's all nice and Javascripty |
| 16:40 | <Philip`> | (and the implementation can use getActiveUniform to work out what types and coercions are required) |
| 16:41 | <Philip`> | kind of like wrapShaderProgram in http://philip.html5.org/demos/canvas/3d/x3d/gfx_glweb20.js |
| 16:42 | <Philip`> | but maybe that's just crazy :-) |
| 16:42 | <kig> | nnnwell, i'd leave that to javascript |
| 16:42 | <kig> | and just do as standards-compliant and straightforward binding as possible |
| 16:44 | <Philip`> | Hmm, I guess that's sensible |
| 16:46 | <kig> | of course there's a lot of weird cruft in gles, like glTexSubImage2D spec saying that the border parameter must be 0 |
| 16:48 | <kig> | but if you remove that, you turn s/gl/gl./ -port into s/glTexImage2D((stuff),(border)(,stuff))/gl.texImage2D(\1\3)/ |
| 16:50 | <Philip`> | Then you've still got the cruft of talking about "2D" explicitly, when there's no 1D or 3D |
| 16:50 | <kig> | yeah |
| 16:52 | Philip` | wondered a while ago whether it'd be sensible to adopt the kind of API that OpenGL 3.0 was going to switch to (before they decided that actually they didn't want to modernise the API at all) |
| 16:54 | <Philip`> | (I think that new API sort of sneaked out as http://www.opengl.org/registry/specs/EXT/direct_state_access.txt or something? I probably should have paid more attention when this was happening...) |
| 16:58 | <kig> | gles20 doesn't even have any stacks, so it's very stabby writing code for it |
| 16:59 | <kig> | 500 lines for a spinning lit cube D: |
| 17:01 | <Philip`> | Just the kind of thing we should be exposing to web authors who can't even understand the difference between HTML and XHTML |
| 17:02 | <kig> | what i might want to do is a GC-friendly matrix and vector classes, but uh, no idea what the JS call overheads are like (if your M*v takes 30 cycles, 100-cycle overhead for the C call ..is still going to be faster than plain js) |
| 17:06 | gsnedders | kinda tempted to do some work on PHP html5lib |
| 17:06 | <gsnedders> | But there again, that means bothering |
| 17:39 | <kig> | Philip`: yeah, it is expert stuff, like writing a text editor with canvas |
| 17:43 | <Philip`> | kig: The difference is that it's designed solely for experts and unusable to everyone else, unlike normal canvas which is designed for more normal people but can be twisted by experts into doing crazy things |
| 17:44 | <kig> | so it is a good logical continuation on that path |
| 17:45 | <kig> | designed for more expert people but can be twisted by programming demigods into doing utterly insane things |
| 17:46 | <Philip`> | The problem is that normal people will it anyway, and they'll make a horrible mess |
| 17:46 | <Philip`> | *will use it |
| 17:47 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Do some work on python html5lib instead |
| 17:47 | <kig> | i do see the problem, but i don't see what can be done about it |
| 17:47 | <Philip`> | When 2D-canvas has slightly complex features like getImageData not necessarily returning 1 pixel of data per canvas-pixel, people keep using it wrongly, which means browsers that try to do higher-quality canvases will start breaking, so it hurts everyone |
| 17:49 | <kig> | uh, there are browsers that do that? |
| 17:50 | <Philip`> | and with 3D-canvas people are going to write pages that only work on NVIDIA drivers on Windows and silently fail everywhere else, and it could be considered worse than if the feature didn't exist at all |
| 17:51 | <Philip`> | kig: I think WebKit does if you've set some OS UI scaling factor |
| 17:52 | <kig> | only work on Nvidia drivers, yes, that is a problem with the nvidia glsl allowing Cg-isms unless the shader has #version foo |
| 17:53 | <kig> | i guess there are other things as well, but that's the first example that sprung to mind |
| 17:58 | <kig> | i don't like pixels not being pixels. it's so "let's break every pixel-munging canvas script out there" |
| 18:00 | <Philip`> | Before getPixelData came along, nobody said that canvas was pixels |
| 18:00 | <Philip`> | It was just a vector-based immediate-mode API |
| 18:00 | <Philip`> | and implementations could do whatever high-resolution stuff or low-resolution-but-with-anti-aliasing stuff they fancied, to make it look good |
| 18:01 | <kig> | and then they put getImageData in, the knaves! |
| 18:02 | <Philip`> | I must admit it's quite useful functionality |
| 18:03 | <Philip`> | but it prevents the canvas-is-a-bunch-of-vectors and canvas-is-a-bunch-of-pixels people from coexisting peacefully |
| 18:03 | <kig> | i hope canvas.width and height at least return the correct pixel amount or that there's some way of getting the dimensions for getting the whole canvas contents |
| 18:04 | <Philip`> | canvas.width/height are the size in canvas coordinate units, which are not necessarily related to the number of device pixels in the backing buffer that the implementation uses |
| 18:04 | <kig> | var fac = getImageData(0,0,1,1).width |
| 18:05 | <kig> | oh but maybe it's fractional, var fac = getImageData(0,0,canvas.width,1).width/canvas.width |
| 18:05 | <Philip`> | There's no requirement for it to even be linear, I think |
| 18:06 | <Philip`> | You could have a higher pixel density in the left of the image |
| 18:06 | <Philip`> | perhaps because you know the user is looking at their screen from the side, and you don't need so many pixels in the distance |
| 18:06 | <kig> | :--------| |
| 18:06 | <Philip`> | Oh, actually, that's not true |
| 18:06 | <Philip`> | Oh, actually, I think it might be |
| 18:07 | <Philip`> | It's required that context.createImageData(w, h).width == context.getImageData(0, 0, w, h).width but maybe it could differ if you change the getImageData x |
| 20:32 | <jgraham> | http://intertwingly.net/stories/2009/03/13/html5-evolution.html |
| 23:04 | <VeXocide> | hmz, should '<a <b><i>b</b>c' parse to '<html><head></head><body><a <b=""><i>bc</i></a></body></html>' ? |
| 23:05 | <VeXocide> | as in, is <a <b=""> legal ? |
| 23:08 | <Philip`> | VeXocide: HTML5 says it should parse like that, i.e. having an attribute named "<b" |
| 23:08 | <VeXocide> | Philip`, i find that odd, but alright |
| 23:10 | <gsnedders> | VeXocide: It is, however, non-conforming |
| 23:11 | <VeXocide> | non-conforming ? |
| 23:12 | <gsnedders> | VeXocide: And a conforming implementation could also create no parse tree, and throw a fatal error (as it'll never get to the point of emitting the a start tag, so thus won't even have <html><head></head><body></body></html>) |
| 23:12 | <VeXocide> | ah, right, but when forced to make something out of it, this would be it |
| 23:12 | <gsnedders> | VeXocide: I mean "<a <b><i>b</b>" does not conform to HTML 5's requirements for documents, and '<a <b="">' cannot occur in a conforming document |
| 23:13 | <gsnedders> | (and insofar as that, it is not legal) |
| 23:13 | <gsnedders> | But a conforming parser would either end up with what you gave, or give a fatal error. |
| 23:13 | <VeXocide> | gsnedders, that was why i was amazed, gecko makes something like <a><b><i>b</i></b><i>c</i></a> out of it |
| 23:14 | <VeXocide> | which somehow makes more sense |
| 23:14 | <gsnedders> | VeXocide: Consider the <a <script>alert(foo)</script>>magic link</a> case |
| 23:14 | <VeXocide> | fair enough, and they are rather nasty cases |
| 23:15 | <gsnedders> | What IE does is probably more relevant than Gecko, though |
| 23:21 | <Philip`> | (<a <b=""> isn't a parse error, it's just an undefined attribute so it's the same kind of error as <a b="">) |
| 23:23 | <gsnedders> | Woah. |
| 23:23 | <gsnedders> | Odd. |
| 23:24 | gsnedders | didn't expect "Start a new attribute in the current tag token. Set that attribute's name to the current input character, and its value to the empty string. Switch to the attribute name state." |
| 23:24 | <Philip`> | Without that step, you would have to write all attributes names in uppercase :-p |
| 23:24 | <Philip`> | s/s// |
| 23:24 | <gsnedders> | Well, sure |
