| 02:09 | <[bjoern]> | Hixie, you around? |
| 02:10 | <gsnedders> | jgraham or annevk5: ping |
| 02:13 | <annevk5> | pong |
| 02:13 | annevk5 | deals with an invasion of Portuguese twitter followers |
| 02:14 | <gsnedders> | annevk5: Could I possibly ask you to host something, seeming you have a working copy of lxml on a pubic webserver? |
| 02:16 | <gsnedders> | annevk5: Namely, my school computing project, which is really just a slightly disguised biblio module for Anolis |
| 02:16 | <annevk5> | can't you use gsnedders.html5.org ? |
| 02:17 | <gsnedders> | Oh, lxml works there. Oh. |
| 02:17 | <gsnedders> | All right, that'll work. |
| 02:19 | <[bjoern]> | Hixie: nm |
| 02:28 | <Hixie> | here now |
| 02:28 | <[bjoern]> | annevk5 kindly took care of the matter. |
| 02:29 | <annevk5> | "RDFa in XHTML becomes a W3C Recommendation. Still not in HTML5." is a bit misleading in that intertwingly page; it's not in XHTML 1.0 either |
| 02:32 | <Hixie> | annevk5: there's a lot on that page that's misleading, starting with the first sentence :-) |
| 02:32 | Philip` | wonders why Rob Burns' proposals always seem to involve making things massively more complex |
| 02:33 | <annevk5> | Hixie, fair enough, I was just skimming a bit |
| 02:33 | <annevk5> | Philip`, I'm sure he'd disagree with that :p |
| 02:35 | <Hixie> | annevk5: there's a lot of other stuff in there that is misleading to various degrees |
| 02:35 | <annevk5> | hmm, missed Pi Day by a ~50 minutes |
| 02:35 | <Hixie> | it's not clear if sam knows that it's misleading and is trying to achieve some goal or other, or if he doesn't know |
| 02:35 | <annevk5> | s/by a/by/ |
| 02:36 | <annevk5> | I always find it hard to tell with him though he usually seems to have some goal |
| 03:42 | <heycam> | what's a one-liner i can use for html5lib to convert html5 to xml? |
| 03:49 | <heycam> | seems i already asked this =) http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20070622#l-85 |
| 04:20 | [bjoern] | notes to self that adding attributes to elements in a schema is not adding a new feature |
| 09:17 | <annevk5> | (bjoern, if you read these logs at all the answer to your question is "no") |
| 09:26 | jgraham | wonders why rubys is so hung up on aria when there is agreement that aria will be included in html5 just as soon as the interaction with other parts of html5 is defined |
| 09:26 | <annevk5> | and ARIA itself is defined in implementable terms |
| 09:27 | <jgraham> | And when several "whatwg" people spent a great deal of effort making it possible to implement aria |
| 09:27 | <jgraham> | (in HTML) |
| 09:28 | <jgraham> | annevk5: That's roughly the same thing. But there is an aria taskforce thing |
| 09:28 | <annevk5> | yeah dunno, maybe because the TAG used it as example |
| 09:28 | <annevk5> | and he's obviously been reading up on what happened so it might just have come from that debate |
| 09:29 | <annevk5> | jgraham, I'm not really sure it's the same; defining how ARIA interacts with HTML and how ARIA maps to platform accessibility APIs seems quite separate |
| 09:30 | <jgraham> | annevk5: Well it's kind of a subset I guess. Define how aria maps to accessibility apis, define how html maps to accessibility apis and define precedence and you can infer how aria fits into html |
| 09:32 | <jgraham> | Who is doing the aria work? |
| 09:33 | <annevk5> | not sure |
| 09:33 | annevk5 | hasn't been following it |
| 09:42 | <annevk5> | maybe now aaronlev left IBM it's sort of falling through the cracks? |
| 09:42 | <rubys1> | it==aria? |
| 09:42 | <olliej> | annevk5: hahaha |
| 09:42 | olliej | is supportive |
| 09:42 | <annevk5> | rubys, y |
| 09:43 | <rubys> | definitely not falling through the cracks |
| 09:43 | <annevk5> | well, I meant the ARIA mapping to platform APIs |
| 09:43 | <jgraham> | rubys: regarding your document, I think there are pretty clear plans to integrate api in html5 |
| 09:43 | <annevk5> | though someone from Microsoft was leading that too, I recall now |
| 09:44 | <jgraham> | But it is blocking on aria being defined in a sutiable way |
| 09:44 | <rubys> | aria is an exemplar, those that worked on it have worked well with those that are leading html5 |
| 09:44 | <rubys> | other groups (e.g. RDFa): not so much |
| 09:45 | <annevk5> | ARIA was quite a tough sell actually |
| 09:46 | <annevk5> | ask hsivonen |
| 09:46 | <rubys> | I watched it from the sidelines |
| 09:46 | <annevk5> | they seemed to care more about XHTML2 than HTML at various points in the discussion o_O |
| 09:47 | <jgraham> | rubys: There are still some technical issues blocking aria. Like, say, how does aria-labelledby interact with @headers on a <td> |
| 09:47 | <jgraham> | I believe integrating aria into HTML5 is blocking on those issues being reslved |
| 09:47 | <rubys> | ARIA is in last call... perhaps somebody should raise such issues? |
| 09:48 | <annevk5> | the PFWG wants to address those in separate documents |
| 09:48 | <jgraham> | rubys: I think I have |
| 09:48 | <annevk5> | including e.g. basic things such as how to implement it |
| 09:48 | <jgraham> | Although I find the tangle of accessibility related lists hard to follow |
| 09:49 | <rubys> | My read is that those that want ARIA want it in HTML5, and view being in a separate document as somewhat suboptimal |
| 09:49 | <jgraham> | who are "those that want aria" in this case? |
| 09:50 | <rubys> | Mostly I talk to RichardS, mainly because he's in my dept. |
| 09:51 | <jgraham> | I think it is possible to have HTML5 define how ARIA+HTML5 works. Although I think it is a little dependant on the outcome of this aria taskforce thing what it should say |
| 09:52 | <jgraham> | (the one about how to map aria to accessibility apis) |
| 14:15 | <annevk> | pff, reading through http://intertwingly.net/stories/2009/03/13/html5-evolution.html more carefully I find I have quite a few remarks to make, but I wonder if it's worth the effort |
| 14:16 | rubys | listening |
| 14:16 | <annevk> | e.g. the WHATWG scope never changed imo |
| 14:17 | <annevk> | we always wanted to fix all the holes in previous specifications |
| 14:17 | <annevk> | it turned out that while doing this, the WF 2.0 approach wasn't that good |
| 14:18 | <annevk> | (writing a "patch-spec") |
| 14:20 | <annevk> | the introduction reads very much like a strawman and I'm not sure if e.g. "Those with a vested interest will portray portions of the truth in a way that will sound very plausible." does not apply to you |
| 14:20 | <rubys> | oh, it applies to me. |
| 14:23 | <rubys> | annevk: is that it? Hardly "quite a few remarks"... |
| 14:24 | <Philip`> | There are clearly serious problems with that article - for a start, the colours are a little bit peculiar |
| 14:24 | <Philip`> | Also I'm not a big fan of serif fonts |
| 14:25 | <rubys> | Did I set the fonts? checking... |
| 14:25 | <Philip`> | They're just the default, I think |
| 14:25 | <rubys> | Nope. Unless you count "font-size: small" |
| 14:26 | <rubys> | You don't like the defaults provided by your browser, and somehow that's *my* problem? <grin> |
| 14:28 | <annevk> | I wasn't planning on being exhaustive; but to continue... it doesn't explain why the WHATWG was formed |
| 14:28 | rubys | wishes everybody a happy π day. |
| 14:28 | <annevk> | as we actually did try to get this done at the W3C |
| 14:29 | <rubys> | If you have links to add, I'll gladly revise. If you want to rip it to shreds on your weblog or elsewhere, that's also entirely OK with me. |
| 14:30 | <rubys> | I do believe that the stated scope is different. The notion that perhaps people stated one scope while intending to do something else and then doing that other things... let's just say that bothers me deeply. I prefer to think that WF 2.0 didn't work out (as you said), and the scope changed. |
| 14:34 | <annevk> | WF2 was about updating and extending one part of HTML4/DOM2, WA1 was about the rest |
| 14:35 | <Philip`> | http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/history links to a lot of the history |
| 14:35 | <annevk> | which seems in line with the position paper that led to the WHATWG http://www.w3.org/2004/04/webapps-cdf-ws/papers/opera.html |
| 14:35 | <annevk> | but I may be missing stuff |
| 14:35 | <Philip`> | e.g. the Workshop on Web Applications and Compound Documents and surrounding blog posts and formation of the WHATWG |
| 14:37 | <rubys> | annvk's link is a good one, and one that isn't in the esw history... |
| 14:38 | <Philip`> | "Opera and Mozilla jointly submit and present a position paper with a set of proposed Design Principles for Web Application Technologies" |
| 14:38 | <Philip`> | That looks to be linking to the same paper |
| 14:38 | <rubys> | dates are off by two months? |
| 14:38 | <annevk> | the WHATWG charter also hasn't been revised apart from the members section afaik and it still applies I think |
| 14:39 | <Philip`> | rubys: I hope you're not attempting to derive any meaning from the date-like numbers in w3.org URLs :-) |
| 14:39 | <annevk> | rubys, W3C uses dates in URIs for namespacing only |
| 14:39 | <annevk> | there's hardly ever much meaning in it :/ |
| 14:40 | <Philip`> | rubys: The workshop was 2004-06-{01,02}, and I guess they just created the web site in 2004-04 |
| 14:40 | <rubys> | ok, got it |
| 14:41 | <rubys> | ok, so todo is to scour that page for useful links and/or simply link outright to that page. I'm surprise to see Atom featured so prominently in that page. |
| 14:41 | <Philip`> | I'm sure I saw a /2009 URL (for the next TPAC or something?) last year, so presumably it doesn't always correspond to creation date |
| 14:42 | <Philip`> | http://www.w3.org/2009/11/TPAC/ |
| 14:43 | <annevk> | might depend on who sets it up :) |
| 14:43 | <rubys> | http://shawn.medero.net/blog/2009/03/11/buckle-up/ |
| 14:43 | <rubys> | that suggests that more coverage of canvas seems appropriate. I don't see canvas mentioned in the ews page either. |
| 14:46 | Philip` | presumes the appropriateness depends on the goal of the document, and he doesn't know what the goal is |
| 14:46 | <annevk> | time to find a gate |
| 14:47 | <rubys> | Philip`: world domination? |
| 14:48 | <Philip`> | rubys: If that's the goal, I think an army of clones would be more effective than a document on the history of HTML |
| 14:55 | <rubys> | a week from tomorrow, I'll be in a room with a bunch of people, some of which actually think that RDFa is a good idea or XForms is a good idea, or alt attributes should be required. Many of them will be looking at me, as I will be on stage in a panel. |
| 15:59 | <sayrer> | "If you don't agree with a rule you are told to follow, announce your agreement to it in a statement, and in that statement, assert that you intend to follow it in a manner consistent with some other set of rules;" |
| 16:02 | <rubys> | As a general rule, I tend to reduce over time my association with people who live by that particular maxim. |
| 16:10 | <karlcow> | hehe |
| 16:38 | <Hixie> | sayrer: the last US administration was really quite good at applying that particular technique |
| 16:38 | <sayrer> | so is the editor of the W3C HTML5 spec ;) |
| 16:39 | <Hixie> | if you say so |
| 16:39 | <jgraham> | There's nothing like a little flamebait to warm the heart on a Saturday afternoon |
| 16:40 | <rubys> | Meanwhile, draft-hixie has gotten a lot of attention the past month. draft-sayre... not so much. |
| 16:40 | <sayrer> | *shrug |
| 16:41 | <Hixie> | crap, match is about to start. gotta go. |
| 16:43 | gsnedders | wonders what match |
| 16:44 | jgraham | guesses not football |
| 16:44 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: football in what language? |
| 16:44 | <jgraham> | Does anyone have any useful LaTeX advice for me? |
| 16:44 | <gsnedders> | http://pastebin.com/m1fb3906a — can someone explain why Python isn't importing it from where I'd expect? |
| 16:45 | <gsnedders> | Oh, wait, duh. |
| 16:45 | <jgraham> | Specifically what to do when dvip[s|df] complains dvips: ! Couldn't find header file times.ttf |
| 16:45 | <jgraham> | This used to work |
| 16:46 | <jgraham> | But I guess the system has been upgraded under me |
| 16:46 | <jgraham> | *upgraded |
| 16:48 | <Philip`> | jgraham: Use Computer Modern |
| 16:49 | <Philip`> | Also, use pdflatex |
| 16:49 | <gsnedders> | Also, use xelatex |
| 16:50 | <jgraham> | Philip`: That would involve redoing all my plots. It is the text in the plots that is causing the problem afaict |
| 16:51 | <jgraham> | Also pdflatex doesn't show any of the plots at all for some reason. And I really really don't want to change tools now |
| 16:51 | <jgraham> | xelatex is simply not an ooption |
| 16:52 | <Philip`> | jgraham: Use Word |
| 16:52 | <jgraham> | (these are the corrections for my thesis which I should have done several months ago but didn't have an internet connection handy. Hence the reluctance to make any major changes) |
| 16:53 | <jgraham> | (because I never want to read it again) |
| 16:54 | gsnedders | is intending on never writing a thesis |
| 16:54 | <gsnedders> | Thereby avoiding this issue |
| 16:54 | Philip` | too |
| 16:54 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: What degree is it that you're doing now? |
| 16:55 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: It's a PhD |
| 16:55 | <gsnedders> | That's what I thought. |
| 16:55 | gsnedders | wonders how Philip` intends to do a PhD without writing a thesis |
| 16:55 | <Philip`> | That doesn't mean I'm intending on doing any work |
| 16:55 | jgraham | was never quite sure what happened ifyou did a PhD but never handed anything in |
| 16:56 | <Philip`> | You stop getting any funding |
| 16:56 | <jgraham> | Although one of my supervisors ex students went home to brazil to write up and was never seen again |
| 16:56 | <jgraham> | Philip`: Yeah, I realise that |
| 16:56 | <Philip`> | and in CS I think they try to kick you out if you've taken more than four or five years because it means the department will get less funding in the future |
| 16:56 | <gsnedders> | And it's meant to be what? Three years? |
| 16:56 | gsnedders | forgets |
| 16:57 | <jgraham> | Is there a way for the funding people to try to reclaim anyof their money? |
| 16:57 | <Philip`> | (since the funding bodies don't like paying for people who aren't going to finish anything) |
| 16:57 | <jgraham> | (There was a similar situation with us and overrunning) |
| 16:57 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: (Us meaning astrophys.?) |
| 16:58 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Us meaning "people funded by the funding body formerly known as PPARC and now known as STFC" |
| 16:58 | <Philip`> | jgraham: I'm not aware of that being possible - I assume they just decide each year whether to continue the funding |
| 16:59 | <gsnedders> | Wow, very loud low flying jets suddenly |
| 16:59 | <gsnedders> | (I assume Eurofighters) |
| 17:17 | <hsivonen> | rubys: I think it would be fair to say that Microsoft was invited to the WHATWG |
| 17:19 | <Philip`> | But it seems the WHATWG wasn't willing to take the necessary steps (like patent policy stuff) for Microsoft to be able to accept that invitation |
| 17:20 | <hsivonen> | yeah, it would also be fair to say that |
| 17:22 | <Philip`> | (and Apple's canvas patent demonstrates that implementing HTML5 will infringe on people's patents, so the need for protection is realistic) |
| 17:25 | <gsnedders> | (Apart from the fact that Apple didn't sue anyone) |
| 17:28 | <Philip`> | (I don't think "I haven't sued anyone yet" is an adequate justification for companies to believe there's no risk of being sued in the future) |
| 17:29 | <Philip`> | (Maybe everyone will stop buying Apple products and they will devolve into a patent troll five years from now) |
| 17:31 | <karlcow> | gsnedders: if you choose the way of "didn't sue anyone", then you have to admit that there is "no issue with w3c doc license". Very similar case. |
| 17:32 | <gsnedders> | karlcow: You assume everything I say is serious |
| 17:32 | <gsnedders> | :) |
| 17:34 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: You should be sure to use ":)" whenever you say anything non-serious |
| 17:38 | <gsnedders> | Hmm… There's a hole in my hoodie. |
| 17:38 | <gsnedders> | Actually, that's untrue. There's quite a lot of holes in my hoodie. |
| 17:38 | <karlcow> | gsnedders: it is hard (even with smileys) to convey the intent of the message. Electronic communications are highly decontextualized. Plus humour is something which is very cultural and "private" group of alike minded people |
| 17:38 | <Philip`> | Makes it easier to insert your head |
| 17:39 | <karlcow> | * in a group… |
| 17:42 | <rubys> | hsivonen and Philip`: I'm looking for statements that have URIs |
| 17:44 | Philip` | wonders what kinds of statements rubys means |
| 17:44 | <rubys> | "it seems the WHATWG wasn't willing to take the necessary steps".... got a URI? |
| 17:44 | <Philip`> | Ah |
| 17:46 | <Philip`> | http://blogs.msdn.com/cwilso/archive/2007/01/10/you-me-and-the-w3c-aka-reinventing-html.aspx |
| 17:46 | <rubys> | preferably one with a date... mailing list archives are ideal. Not this W3C business of putting what looks like dates in URIs that have little resemblance to actual dates. (caption for the humor impaired: It's a joke, son) |
| 17:46 | <Philip`> | "I was asked personally to join the WHAT WG over a year ago. I had a back-and-forth discussion in email with several of the members of the WHAT-WG. I said [...] “you have no patent policy, and that makes it impossible for me to join.” The response was something along the lines of “yeah, we should get one of those.”" |
| 17:47 | <gsnedders> | http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2004-June/000220.html also says we should do something about the lack |
| 17:47 | <rubys> | thanks! |
| 17:48 | gsnedders | doesn't think anything has ever happened about getting one thoguh |
| 17:49 | <rubys> | I think the issue is that if whatever is broken at the W3C (starting with the license) were to be fixed, there would be no need to fix the WHATWG's lack of patent policy. |
| 17:49 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: The WHATWG did get a patent policy, by getting the W3C to make a WG for it |
| 17:53 | Philip` | assumes a W3C patent policy is going to be more effective than a WHATWG patent policy could be, because people could decide to violate the WHATWG patent policy and not suffer any significant repercussions |
| 17:53 | <Philip`> | (whereas "Microsoft kicked out of W3C for violating patent policy" would be bad in terms of PR and in terms of all the other W3C work they care about) |
| 17:54 | <Philip`> | s/Microsoft/Apple/ if you want |
| 17:56 | <karlcow> | aaah? Was it a political move from whatwg then? ;) explicitly kidding |
| 18:12 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: http://bugs.gsnedders.com/ says "Bad Gateway" :-( |
| 18:14 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: First Robotics match. I'm one of the refs at the silicon valley regional. |
| 18:14 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: don't you read my twitters? |
| 18:26 | <rubys> | hixie: there was some confusion, you are still planning on going to this, right: http://esw.w3.org/topic/IETF_HTML5_Meeting_March_2009 ? |
| 18:27 | <Hixie> | yes; i'm planning on going to all meetings in san franscisco near the ietf meeting that don't involve me paying an entrance fee |
| 18:27 | <Hixie> | (and that i'm invited to) |
| 18:27 | <Hixie> | as far as i know that's the only one |
| 18:28 | <rubys> | there's an unrelated meeting the next day, let me find the URI... |
| 18:28 | <rubys> | Actually, I twittered it, don't you read my twitters? :-) |
| 18:29 | <rubys> | http://tinyurl.com/ahtgn3 |
| 18:29 | <rubys> | Brad Neuberg |
| 18:31 | <Hixie> | i don't classify "drinking" as a meeting :-) |
| 18:33 | <Hixie> | rubys: incidentally, re the first sentence of your html-evolution document, the whatwg list has more subscribers than the entire browser development teams of apple, opera, google, and mozilla put together |
| 18:34 | <rubys> | interesting, but only if you conflate subscribers with contributors :-) |
| 18:35 | <rubys> | that said, I'm a contributor and I'm not employed by a browser vendor |
| 18:35 | <Hixie> | the acknowledgements section of html5 -- all people who have contributed in a way that actually affected the spec -- has more names on it than the core browser development teams of all those browser vendors too |
| 18:36 | <rubys> | some sort of adjective, like "primarily" perhaps, would seem to be in order. |
| 18:36 | <Hixie> | (i.e. not counting suppot staff like lawyers) |
| 18:36 | <Hixie> | i don't know that it's even "primarily" to be honest |
| 18:36 | <Hixie> | since the browser vendors are contributing just as much to the w3c as the whatwg at this point |
| 18:37 | <Hixie> | and other people are mostly contributing just to the whatwg |
| 18:40 | <rubys> | My perception is that there is a long tail phenomenon going on here. Some people (e.g. annevk) contribute dramatically more than others (e.g., rubys). Those that tend to contribute more tend to be tightly associated with a browser vendor, for obvious reasons. |
| 18:44 | <Hixie> | actually anne's a great example |
| 18:44 | <Hixie> | if i'm not mistaken, he was independent originally |
| 18:44 | <Hixie> | and it was his involvement in the list that led to him working for a browser vendor |
| 18:44 | <Hixie> | same with jgraham, lachy, zcorpan |
| 18:44 | <Hixie> | probably others too |
| 18:57 | <karlcow> | rubys: browser vendors employees and usually students. People who have paid time for it, or people who use their free time for community involvement instead of studies |
| 18:57 | <Hixie> | just like with the w3c :-) |
| 18:58 | <karlcow> | I noticed since I have a job which is not directly tied to standards work that it becomes a *lot* harder to follow what is really happening (from political to technical). |
| 18:58 | <Hixie> | right, alliances are selected; time for lunch, then the elimination rounds! |
| 19:16 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Not sync. enough :) |
| 19:17 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Why do you want that bugtracker anyway? :P |
| 19:22 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: I don't, but Google told me to look at it |
| 19:22 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Why? |
| 19:22 | <Philip`> | when I was searching for your HTTP parsing thing |
| 19:23 | <gsnedders> | http://stuff.gsnedders.com/http-parsing.html |
| 19:28 | <annevk5> | "Plus humour is something which is very cultural and "private" group of alike minded people" I find I can have a laugh with most people in most countries I've visited (saying most because I might not remember all) |
| 19:31 | <Philip`> | Cultures aren't necessarily aligned with national boundaries, so that doesn't mean much if the people in those countries were all part of the web-development cultures |
| 19:31 | <Philip`> | s/s$// |
| 19:32 | <jgraham> | Philip`: I dunno, it's not like all web developoers have the same sense of humour |
| 19:33 | <annevk5> | And it's also not like I only meet web-development people :) |
| 19:34 | <karlcow> | +1 to Philip`. A unix joke with fly a lot better with people actually knowing unix (aka culture) in any countries |
| 19:34 | <karlcow> | annevk5: hehe |
| 19:35 | <Philip`> | jgraham: Sure, but they're much more similar to each other than to e.g. goatherders in Morocco, I would assume |
| 19:35 | <karlcow> | I know that most of the humour I could do here would be shocking, so most of the time I abstain. I do it with the group of people which have the same sense of humour. It avoids me troubles ;) I have already enough here ;) |
| 19:36 | <jgraham> | karlcow: Shocking? |
| 19:38 | <Philip`> | You couldn't be even as shocking as Mr Last Week, surely |
| 19:38 | <karlcow> | jgraham: yes :) I have a tendency to be very sarcastic (checking the dictionary), but in an absurd way. For understanding the humour, you would have to really know me, because it is often at the opposite of what I really think. |
| 19:38 | <Philip`> | and he's just weird rather than shocking :-) |
| 19:38 | <karlcow> | Philip`: Mr Last Week is not shocking. He is right on the spot ;) |
| 19:39 | <jgraham> | karlcow is looking increasingly like a Mr Last Week candidate :) |
| 19:40 | <jgraham> | karlcow: Yeah, I do the sarcasm thing. Or a sarcasm thing. But I'm trying to tone it down for living abroad because it doesn't necessarily cross language (rather than cultural) barriers |
| 19:41 | <karlcow> | jgraham: I wish I was, but unfortunately 1) my English level is not good enough compared to the talent of Mr Last Week, 2) I don't think I have said things about people behind a pseudo. |
| 19:42 | <karlcow> | at least a pseudo which was not known from the recipient of the message |
| 19:42 | <karlcow> | would be more exact |
| 19:42 | <karlcow> | aka karlcow for example |
| 19:42 | <jgraham> | karlcow: 2) suggests that you don't really wish you were |
| 19:43 | <jgraham> | Since you don't have a tendency toward anonymous trolling |
| 19:43 | <jgraham> | however literate |
| 19:44 | <karlcow> | yep exactly. If I was doing comments. It would be serious ;) maybe even more critics and it would get me a lot of troubles. I have only one life, I don't wish to spend it fighting all the time. :)) just being sane |
| 19:45 | <karlcow> | though I'm more likely to say things face to face, which I prefer usually. |
| 19:45 | <karlcow> | annevk5 and I had a few enjoyable (at least for me) discussions. |
| 19:45 | <karlcow> | annevk5 is someone I respect. |
| 19:51 | <gsnedders> | You respect annevk5!? You idiot! :D |
| 19:51 | <karlcow> | ahah |
| 19:51 | gsnedders | wonders what on earth is going on with this Python |
| 19:51 | karlcow | is waiting for my money transfert |
| 19:51 | <annevk5> | that's what you get for calling me idiot |
| 19:53 | <karlcow> | rha gsnedders you see, you made him upset! |
| 19:54 | <gsnedders> | And I can't even say sorry! |
| 19:54 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Maybe it swallowed a crocodile |
| 19:55 | <Philip`> | http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/americas_enl_1128575604/html/1.stm - poor python :-( |
| 19:56 | <Philip`> | If that's not it, I don't know what problems you're experiencing |
| 19:56 | <karlcow> | "La Grenouille et la Vache" Jean de la Fontaine. |
| 19:58 | <gsnedders> | WTF!? |
| 20:01 | <gsnedders> | Has anyone here read Le Chiendent? |
| 20:01 | <gsnedders> | (by Raymond Queneau) |
| 20:06 | Philip` | hasn't read any French books, except a few pages of an English translation of "Graphes, dioïdes et semi-anneaux" |
| 20:09 | <gsnedders> | deepcopy does something really whacky |
| 20:09 | <gsnedders> | The copy it creates has no attributes seemingly |
| 20:32 | <gsnedders> | Ow. |
| 20:32 | <gsnedders> | I just killed performance in a big way. |
| 20:35 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: As opposed to a tiny little killing? |
| 20:35 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Exactly. |
| 20:36 | Philip` | wonders if you can get a reduced sentence for murder if you only kill somebody a little bit |
| 20:57 | Philip` | would be more convinced by Microsoft's claims of "most complete" CSS 2.1 support if they didn't close his bug report, of a CSS bug which makes his site unusable in IE8 (compared to merely ugly in IE7), as "postponed" |
| 21:04 | <gsnedders> | How the hell does that happen… |
| 21:05 | <gsnedders> | self.index(self[key]) — ValueError: list.index(x): x not in list |
| 21:06 | <gsnedders> | Oh, duh. |
| 21:18 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: I bet x is not in the list |
| 21:18 | <gsnedders> | Indeed it is not. |
| 21:19 | gsnedders | has basically changed everything about how the list behaves though |
| 21:19 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Is that an ordered dict? |
| 21:19 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: No |
| 21:19 | <jgraham> | Oh. Well it has a __getitem__ and an index so it seems quite like one |
| 21:20 | <jgraham> | (maybe not insertion ordered) |
| 21:21 | <gsnedders> | It's the real whacky data structure I have to represent a refer file |
| 21:21 | <gsnedders> | It seems perfectly sane until you look at the code that implements it |
| 21:21 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Oh, usually I have the opposite problem |
| 21:22 | <gsnedders> | the getter also uses a cache to find what to get |
| 21:22 | <jgraham> | My data structures look insane until you realise they were the only thing that you could do in two lines of code |
| 21:22 | <gsnedders> | Fun bugs like that appear when the list and cache get out of sync |
| 21:23 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Can't you force them to be in sync? Like by being the same data? |
| 21:23 | <gsnedders> | Oh, the implementation of the list subclass should keep them in sync |
| 21:23 | jgraham | doesn't really know what "the list" does |
| 21:23 | <gsnedders> | But there are blatantly bugs |
| 21:24 | <jgraham> | Nooooooooooooooooooooo |
| 21:28 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: A fun way to implement object caches in python is to give the class that implenments the cached objects a metaclass with __call__ that looks for an object of the same type and the same properties in the cache and returns that instead |
| 21:29 | <jgraham> | So you only ever have one object of each set of properties |
| 21:29 | <gsnedders> | Fun bug: entry is deleting itself. |
| 21:33 | <gsnedders> | The thing is the cache key can be changed in the entry, so the entry needs to keep the database up-to-date too |
| 21:33 | <gsnedders> | And it was deleting itself from the database, but keeping itself in the cache |
| 21:44 | gsnedders | wonders how many lines of code he hasn't changed in the past day |
| 21:47 | <gsnedders> | So, my original implementation: FAILED (failures=10, errors=3) |
| 21:47 | <gsnedders> | Now passes |
| 21:48 | <gsnedders> | Sadly, I think I created a whole load of bugs while fixing other bugs, but those have equally been fixed. |
| 22:39 | Philip` | wonders what's a good tool for drawing diagrams for LaTeX |
| 22:40 | <jgraham> | Philip`: in what sense for LaTeX? |
| 22:40 | <Philip`> | jgraham: To be embedded into a document which is written in LaTeX |
| 22:41 | <karlcow> | hmmmm take any tools which generates eps files |
| 22:41 | <Philip`> | and to use proper LaTeX fonts so it doesn't look ugly |
| 22:41 | <jgraham> | Philip`: I used inkscape with some problems |
| 22:42 | <karlcow> | Philip`: if you got a mac, I would recommend OmniGraffle |
| 22:43 | Philip` | has access to a Mac, but there's no way he'd ever spend any money on software ever |
| 22:44 | <Philip`> | (Well, except for games) |
| 22:44 | <heycam> | there are ttf versions of computer modern roman somewhere; you could just use those in whatever diagramming tool you end up using |
| 22:44 | <karlcow> | you can download it and it will be usable for x days |
| 22:45 | Philip` | might just put up with xfig's UI, since it seems to be possible to make it work nicely |
| 22:45 | <Philip`> | karlcow: I also don't want software which will expire and prevent me from modifying my data at any point in the future :-) |
| 22:45 | <karlcow> | :) |
| 22:45 | karlcow | found that but has no idea if it's good or not http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/help/Catalogue/entries/pgf.html |
| 22:47 | <jgraham> | heycam: Will ttf versions of computer modern work in diagrams embedded in LaTeX |
| 22:47 | jgraham | guesses it depends on the exact toolchain |
| 22:49 | <heycam> | jgraham, yeah, if you just convert them to paths |
| 22:49 | <heycam> | e.g. just by exporting to pdf from inkscape |
| 22:50 | <heycam> | but if you want to keep them as text, not sure |
| 22:50 | <jgraham> | Maybe that's how I got inkscape to work in the end inkscape->pdf->eps |
| 22:51 | heycam | just |
| 22:51 | <heycam> | er |
| 22:51 | heycam | just \includegraphics{}s the pdf itself |
| 22:51 | <jgraham> | Does that work if you aren't using pdflatex? |
| 22:51 | <heycam> | probably not :) |
| 22:52 | heycam | afk |
| 23:11 | jgraham | wishes he knew why there was still such a strong perception that HTML 5 has disenfranchised authors somehow |
| 23:12 | <jgraham> | Because, you know, I actually went to conferences and spoke about HTML5 to authors and they, by and large, didn't sound disenfranchised |
| 23:14 | <jgraham> | So I don't know if I'm just talking to the wrng people or if the whole "problem" is something that has been invented by people thinking that things should be a certain way and then assuming that the disconnect between hypothesis and reality represents a problem |
| 23:14 | <jgraham> | Or both |
| 23:14 | <jgraham> | Or neither |
| 23:15 | Philip` | wonders where that perception is being expressed |
| 23:19 | <jgraham> | Philip`: http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/03/13/HTML5-Evolution#c1237062155 suggests outreach to content creators is needed, which is what brought it to mind |
| 23:19 | <jgraham> | Anyway, bedtime :) |
| 23:24 | <annevk5> | Same here, I visited a few companies in Japan and Portugal in the past few weeks and had no real negative comments. There were some security concerns with WebSockets and such, but nothing that suggested they didn't like the approach. |
| 23:55 | <karlcow> | I met authors who enjoyed it and met authors who despised it. |
| 23:56 | <karlcow> | There are many types of people using the language, some of them will be only comfortable with the markup and don't know what a DOM is. |
| 23:57 | <karlcow> | so definitely not black and white |