| 00:49 | <Hixie> | ok, fixed dfn.js |
| 02:01 | <olliej> | Hixie: faruk just pointed out an interesting issue, in that local storage provides no mechanism to perform authentication -- eg. use of local storage, db, etc on a public terminal |
| 02:02 | <Hixie> | ? |
| 02:02 | <Hixie> | how do you mean? |
| 02:02 | <olliej> | Hixie: currently sites know that they should warn users against saving there login, etc on a public terminal |
| 02:03 | <olliej> | Hixie: but say ye olde online office suite wanted to keep the users documents cached locally, they have no way to do so safely |
| 02:04 | <olliej> | Hixie: because if the user is on a public terminal all users get the same localStorage/DB |
| 02:04 | <olliej> | Hixie: the site could implement client side encryption if it desired |
| 02:05 | <olliej> | Hixie: but it seems to be something i don't recall seeing discussed |
| 02:05 | <olliej> | eg. lots of poorly thought out web apps could end up exposing user data |
| 02:09 | <Hixie> | if you're on an untrusted terminal, you've lost already. If you're on a trusted public terminal, then the system should clear all cached data (cookies, local storage, databases, history, etc) between users. |
| 02:09 | <Hixie> | i don't understand how this is a new problem |
| 02:14 | <Hixie> | olliej: ^ |
| 02:14 | <Hixie> | man i hate how people always talk about I-Ds with their version number |
| 02:14 | <olliej> | Hixie: it's not a new problem (vs. cookies) |
| 02:14 | <Hixie> | it's like people who refer to dated version of the html5 spec instead of the ED |
| 02:15 | <olliej> | Hixie: the new issue is that it becomes really easy to code a website which doesn't save login credentials (because it's ona public terminal) |
| 02:15 | <olliej> | but may store user data in local storage without thinking about it |
| 02:15 | <Hixie> | olliej: i can add a warning to the security/privacy part of the spec if you think it'll help (please send mail if so) |
| 02:15 | <Hixie> | but i don't know what else we can do about hat |
| 02:15 | <Hixie> | that |
| 03:39 | <olliej> | Hixie: yeah neither am i |
| 03:39 | <olliej> | Hixie: (sorry was dinnering) |
| 04:13 | <Hixie> | renaming <header> to <heading> would be fine by me, I think, assuming that it really has benefits |
| 04:24 | <takkaria> | I'm not sure a heading is any less purportedly confusing |
| 04:30 | <Hixie> | leif seems to argue it is less confusing |
| 04:43 | <takkaria> | I always read "h1" as "heading 1", not "header 1" |
| 04:43 | <takkaria> | and div id="header" matches up with "footer" |
| 04:43 | <takkaria> | but maybe my intutions are weird |
| 04:47 | <Hixie> | i agree with you |
| 04:47 | <Hixie> | to be honest |
| 04:47 | <Hixie> | but if people think <heading> is clearer... |
| 04:47 | <Hixie> | i don't know if they do though, other than leif |
| 04:49 | <takkaria> | and typographically speaking, it's definitely a header and not heading |
| 04:50 | <takkaria> | you need an intuitionometer, I think. :) |
| 04:51 | <Hixie> | well now it's 1 vs 1 and the status quo usually wins in these situations... |
| 04:54 | <takkaria> | yay for the status quo, I guess |
| 05:49 | <Niictar> | Err |
| 05:49 | <Niictar> | Hixie: I vote for <heading> |
| 05:49 | <Niictar> | One moment and I'll find the reason why |
| 05:52 | <Niictar> | <header> allows <address> to nest inside. Which is more than just <h1>..<h6> |
| 05:52 | <Niictar> | <heading> in my mind encompasses more than 1 kind of thing |
| 05:53 | <Niictar> | And I think of <header> like I think of <h1> which is in contradiction of takkaria's intutions |
| 05:53 | <Niictar> | But I guess that just means different people look at it different ways |
| 05:54 | <Niictar> | But <header> feels like one item to me |
| 05:55 | <Niictar> | I don't know if more than just <address> can fit (I had guessed <nav> did, but it does not), but again, I like <heading> better |
| 06:14 | <Hixie> | well we want a name that conveys "only <h1>-<h6> elements go here", but doesn't sound silly. :-) |
| 06:14 | <Hixie> | <hgroup> would be a good name were it not for the sounding silly part |
| 06:29 | <Niictar24> | Hixie: I know it's a Wiki and what that means, but the examples here: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Authoring show <address> within <header> |
| 06:30 | <Niictar24> | And the last time I tried validating those examples using validator.nu, it didn't report any problems |
| 06:30 | <Niictar24> | So, if it's only supposed to have <h1>..<h6>, something is amis? |
| 06:33 | <Niictar24> | Even if it didn't sound silly to you, <hgroup> wouldn't help at all when you can put <address> and <p> elements inside <header> |
| 06:33 | <Niictar24> | (for element names that make sense) |
| 06:35 | Niictar24 | is away |
| 06:40 | <Hixie> | Niictar24: oh those elements are allowed there, but we still want to not draw attention to that |
| 07:12 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: you can have a border on body, too, and the margins will collapse |
| 07:13 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: actually... if you specify p { margin:1em 0 } in the style sheet, then margins *don't* collapse |
| 07:13 | <Hixie> | -> mail or bugs please :-) |
| 07:13 | <Hixie> | and it actually depends on the UA, last i checked |
| 07:13 | <Hixie> | webkit uses a special unit |
| 07:14 | <Hixie> | (iirc that was my idea) |
| 07:14 | <Hixie> | not sure about the other UAs |
| 07:32 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: <heading>? to me that sounds like it's intended to be "<h>" i.e. equivalent to <h1> |
| 07:32 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: but <headings> to me says that h1, h2 etc are to be nested |
| 07:33 | <zcorpan> | (but officially, i couldn't care less) |
| 07:34 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: people think that <header> is what aria calls 'banner' |
| 07:35 | <zcorpan> | i.e. the area at the top that contains the logo and some ads etc |
| 07:44 | <takkaria> | I have this weird suspicion that whatever gets done, it will confuse about the same number of people |
| 07:45 | <takkaria> | e.g. all of those who copy and paste and never read tutorials or specs |
| 07:49 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I think both <heading> and <header> are bad. either one gets confused for the other |
| 07:49 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: <hgroup> does not have this issue |
| 07:52 | <Hixie> | <hgroup> is ugly |
| 07:53 | <Philip`> | That's good, because it'll discourage people from using it, so they'll only use it when they understand why and where they're meant to use it |
| 07:54 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: the best parts of hgroup: 1) no -er or -ing, 2) makes it clear it is designed for grouping |
| 07:56 | <zcorpan> | <hg>? |
| 07:57 | <zcorpan> | <h1-h6>? |
| 07:59 | <zcorpan> | we should have a static version of the author view |
| 07:59 | <zcorpan> | i wonder if the impl bits should be stripped before or after the toc is built |
| 08:01 | <Hixie> | after, but you have to strip the toc too |
| 08:14 | <takkaria> | e.g. all of those who copy and paste and never read tutorials or specs |
| 08:15 | <takkaria> | I need to stop accidentally repasting things I've already said :) |
| 08:15 | <annevk3> | http://ajaxian.com/archives/the-vml-changes-in-ie-8 o_O |
| 08:16 | <virtuelv> | VML changes, but no SVG? |
| 08:17 | <annevk3> | The VML changes are about making it more complex to use and making it slower apparently... |
| 08:19 | <Hixie> | hard to complain about them sabotaging their standards compliance efforts when they also do it to their efforts to sabotage their standards compliance efforts! |
| 08:20 | <zcorpan> | makes sense -- they want people to use silverlight instead of svg or canvas (implemented using vml for ie with script) |
| 08:21 | <Hixie> | i doubt that they actualy are trying to make IE bad so that people will use silverlight |
| 08:22 | <annevk3> | They made Word HTML output intentionally bad so that people will stick with Microsoft products |
| 08:22 | <zcorpan> | though maybe the vml changes were unintentional side effects of other changes |
| 08:28 | <zcorpan> | v\: polyline? standards-compliant css parsing? is there an element with the local name "v:"? |
| 08:28 | <zcorpan> | or do selectors now match either prefix or local name in ie? |
| 08:30 | <Hixie> | annevk3: true |
| 08:35 | <Philip`> | http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2009/03/12/site-compatibility-and-ie8.aspx talks about VML selectors a bit |
| 08:35 | <Philip`> | zcorpan: That page says v\:polyline, which sounds more plausible as an element name |
| 08:36 | <zcorpan> | they still match on qname in my non-vml test |
| 08:36 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: yeah |
| 08:37 | <zcorpan> | wonder where lrbabe got the space from |
| 08:43 | <zcorpan> | "Parser error correction for malformed HTML has changed in IE8 Standards Mode." - that sounds scary |
| 08:45 | <zcorpan> | though the </li> handling seems to match html5 |
| 08:47 | <zcorpan> | they nest table in p if the p implied body |
| 08:47 | <zcorpan> | and if the p doesn |
| 08:47 | <zcorpan> | t contain other things before the table |
| 08:51 | <zcorpan> | hey they put embed in object in the tree |
| 08:52 | <zcorpan> | but document.x is not a collection |
| 08:53 | <zcorpan> | for <object name=x><embed name=x> |
| 08:53 | <zcorpan> | document.x returns the object |
| 08:53 | <Lachy> | woah, IE7's parsing matched Firefox, Opera and Safari in that case, so it looks like HTML5 may have had it wrong. But now IE8 matches HTML5 and no other browsers do. |
| 08:54 | <zcorpan> | Lachy: oops |
| 08:57 | <zcorpan> | the ie7 behavior seems more robust |
| 09:02 | <zcorpan> | they changed attribute ordering |
| 09:09 | <Hixie> | Lachy: which case? |
| 09:12 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: <ul><li><ul></li><li>x |
| 09:12 | <Hixie> | d'oh |
| 09:12 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: ie8 and html5 close the inner ul |
| 09:32 | jgraham | thinks "<hgroup> sounds silly" isn't much of a technical argument |
| 09:34 | <Lachy> | Leif's proposal to use <heading> seems like it would make the situation worse, since the whole argument for changing <header> is based on the fact that it's not a heading itself |
| 09:35 | <Lachy> | and some of Leif's arguments for <heading> actually support keeping <header> |
| 09:48 | <jgraham> | Lachy: e.g.? |
| 09:54 | <Lachy> | jgraham, points B.2. and B.5. in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Mar/0722.html |
| 09:54 | <Lachy> | "James has allready documented that authors tend to expect same/parallell features from <header> and <footer>." - suggests that they should keep their similar names |
| 09:55 | <jgraham> | Lachy: The point is that that is not really true. They aren't parallels |
| 09:55 | <Lachy> | what? |
| 09:56 | <jgraham> | Well I'm not sure actually because I don't know what features parallels would have |
| 09:57 | <Lachy> | also "<thead> and <tfoot>, typically referred to as table header/footer, will probably shape authors' understanding of <header>/<footer> as well.", since a section <header> is analogous to a table header <thead> |
| 09:58 | <Lachy> | and as for the meaning of "heading", your argument was that people thought <header> was a direct replacement for <h1>, rather than a container. Using <heading> would only increase that confusion |
| 09:59 | <Lachy> | even though I still think your argument about people's confusion is not well supported |
| 09:59 | <jgraham> | Lachy: I agree that <heading> is a bad name |
| 09:59 | <jgraham> | But <header> has a rather narrow use case grouping to |
| 09:59 | <jgraham> | er |
| 10:00 | <jgraham> | But <header> has a rather narrow use case: grouping together material into a single logical section header |
| 10:00 | <Philip`> | Hmm, on a site I wrote a while ago it appears I used <header> just for surrounding the page heading and logo, because I thought that was what it was for |
| 10:00 | <Lachy> | however, Leif does raise some interesting points about the terminology used within the spec that should be fixed. |
| 10:03 | <jgraham> | we should call it <logicalheader> and then no one would use it incorrectly. Or at all :) |
| 10:04 | <Philip`> | We should remove it entirely, and then it won't be used incorrectly |
| 10:05 | <jgraham> | Philip`: That is one options, but it does seem like quite a nice feature for the cases where it is needed |
| 10:05 | <Lachy> | no, we need to keep it since it finally allows us to do subheadings properly without messing up the outline |
| 10:05 | <jgraham> | Like <header><h1>My awwesome blog</h1><h2>With an ironic subtitle</h2></header> |
| 10:06 | <zcorpan> | we could add an attribute that indicates subheader, i.e. <h1>Foo</h1><h2 subheading>Bar</h2> |
| 10:06 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: People would just put that on any header with depth > 1 |
| 10:06 | <Lachy> | using <header> also allows for more flexibility in styling without requiring authors to add extra divs |
| 10:07 | <zcorpan> | <h2 no-toc> |
| 10:07 | <Philip`> | It seems that approximately nobody uses outlines today, so maybe we should wait a while and see if people start using HTML5's outlines before we add new elements to cope better with rare situations |
| 10:07 | <Philip`> | Baby steps and all that |
| 10:07 | <Lachy> | Philip`, I use it |
| 10:07 | <Philip`> | Lachy: You're approximately nobody ;-) |
| 10:08 | <Lachy> | Philip`, the replaceHeadings anolis plugin is a good example of how it can be put to good use once its more widely supported |
| 10:08 | <Lachy> | also, screen readers use the outline for page navigation |
| 10:08 | <Philip`> | <h1>Foo <h2>Bar</h2></h1> |
| 10:09 | <zcorpan> | Lachy: i thought they generally had shortcut keys to jump to next hN element |
| 10:09 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: that has parsing issues in some browsers and styling issues in other |
| 10:10 | <zcorpan> | though some other element could work |
| 10:10 | <Lachy> | zcorpan, I thought they had controls to skip to the next heading of a particular level, so they can skip sub sections |
| 10:10 | <jgraham> | Philip`: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/475 gets ~230 downloads/week and https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/475 gets ~300 which is pretty close to nobody but sugeests it isn't a totally useless idea |
| 10:10 | <Philip`> | <h1>Foo<br><small>Bar</small></h1> |
| 10:11 | <Lachy> | but once <section> is more widely deployed and people are using <h1> for all headings, then using the outline will become more important |
| 10:12 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: yeah that could work except people will call it presentational and there's likely legacy content that uses small for purposes other than sub headings |
| 10:13 | <Lachy> | jgraham, you just linked to the same addon twice |
| 10:13 | <jgraham> | https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/7203 is the second one |
| 10:14 | <zcorpan> | (though there's also content that uses small for purposes other than small print so might be moot point) |
| 10:31 | <Philip`> | http://www.opencloudmanifesto.org/ - <img alt=""> everywhere - hooray for accessibility |
| 10:33 | <jgraham> | That page is awesome |
| 10:33 | <annevk42> | I'm sort of surprised nobody has mentioned self-closing syntax on <style> / <script> yet |
| 10:35 | <hsivonen> | Hixie's "Input on agenda" messages serve to illustrate how the WG is unable to close even issues that have been addressed, such as the legacy-doctype thing which is pending on the registration of the about: URI scheme |
| 10:35 | <hsivonen> | annevk42: feel free to mention it |
| 10:35 | <hsivonen> | what's the deal of the HTML version of the cloud manifesto being split to 6 subpages? |
| 10:36 | <hsivonen> | continuous media FTW! |
| 10:36 | <annevk42> | I'm not sure what to say. The safest thing seems to treat <style> / <script> identical between HTML and SVG, but that is not popular. |
| 10:36 | <hsivonen> | It'd dodgy that the manifesto doesn't say who wrote and started it |
| 10:37 | <hsivonen> | s/'d/'s/ |
| 10:39 | <hsivonen> | Interesting. Sun and IBM are supporters. Google, Amazon and Microsoft are not. Seems |
| 10:39 | <hsivonen> | like the target of the manifesto is Amazon/Google and maybe Microsoft |
| 10:41 | <zcorpan> | annevk42: hadn't i mentioned self-closing <style>? |
| 10:43 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10206077-56.html may be relevant |
| 10:43 | <annevk42> | zcorpan, you did; http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Dec/0134.html |
| 10:44 | <Philip`> | Also http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7969458.stm mentions Google pulling out |
| 10:47 | Philip` | likes it when the cloud gives him a plain old x86 Linux/Windows box he can run anything on, since that's open enough to avoid vendor lock-in |
| 10:48 | <ace_me> | what's about this channel pls ? |
| 10:48 | <ace_me> | I've found you as searching http://www.google.ro/search?hl=ro&q=quicktime+freenode&meta=&aq=f&oq= |
| 10:48 | <ace_me> | I have a issue with installing quicktime |
| 10:48 | <annevk42> | this channel is not about quicktime |
| 10:49 | <annevk42> | our logs just have a high pagerank |
| 10:49 | <ace_me> | ok annevk42 |
| 10:49 | <ace_me> | thx |
| 10:50 | <ace_me> | by the way I am 41 |
| 10:51 | jgraham | feels like he is in an episode of the prisoner |
| 10:51 | annevk42 | wasn't quite sure whether to say he's 22, that it's a book reference, or just to keep silent |
| 10:59 | <mpt> | oh, it has a manifesto, therefore it's doomed |
| 11:00 | <Philip`> | It doesn't have a manifesto, it *is* a manifesto |
| 11:01 | jgraham | wonders if you could destroy the whole cloud computing iniative by vaugely insinuating that cloud computing is like communism because both have manifestos |
| 11:02 | <Philip`> | Seems like it would have been easier if the Open Cloud Manifesto was done as a blog post |
| 11:02 | <Philip`> | and then we'd know who wrote it |
| 11:02 | <Philip`> | and it would be just as easy to ignore |
| 11:03 | <mpt> | jgraham, that didn't work for Linux |
| 11:04 | <Philip`> | Their markup is great |
| 11:04 | <Philip`> | <div class="xr_tl" style="left: 0px; top: 62px;">The buzz around cloud computing has reached a fever pitch. Some believe it is a </div> |
| 11:04 | <Philip`> | <div class="xr_tl" style="left: 0px; top: 81px;">disruptive trend representing the next stage in the evolution of the Internet. Others </div> |
| 11:04 | <Philip`> | <div class="xr_tl" style="left: 0px; top: 100px;">believe it is hype, as it uses long established computing technologies. As with any </div> |
| 11:05 | <Dashiva> | They're waiting for <l> |
| 11:05 | <Dashiva> | Clearly XHTML2 is in demand |
| 11:08 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.opencloudmanifesto.org%2Fopencloudmanifesto1.htm only reports minor syntax issues, and does not report that the page is insane |
| 11:09 | <Dashiva> | Is that a machine-checkable condition? |
| 11:09 | <Philip`> | That's not my problem |
| 11:10 | <Philip`> | But surely you could check the ratio div/spans and see that the only other elements are a and img, so clearly the page is failing to use appropriate elements |
| 11:10 | <Philip`> | s/ratio/ratio of/ |
| 11:11 | <mpt> | heuristic validation, eh |
| 11:12 | <Philip`> | It works for spam filtering, it should work for markup validation too |
| 11:17 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: would the page be less insane if the divs were replaced with <p>s? |
| 11:19 | <Philip`> | zcorpan: No, so you'd have to use some other heuristics too, like checking that the contents of <p>s are complete sentences and not split-up fragments |
| 11:20 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: it's a race to the bottom of heuristics vs even more insane workarounds to silence the validator |
| 11:21 | <Dashiva> | Spam is getting pretty good at fooling detectors too |
| 11:21 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: that's why the spec was changed to allow e.g. empty paragraphs |
| 11:21 | <Dashiva> | Just look at all that amazing poetry they churn out |
| 11:22 | <Philip`> | zcorpan: At some point it will be easier to write good clean markup than to write insane workarounds to silence the validator |
| 11:22 | <Philip`> | and then we'll have won |
| 11:22 | <Dashiva> | But at what cost? |
| 11:22 | <zcorpan> | and what's the benefit? |
| 11:23 | <Philip`> | Dashiva: That's a good example - the heuristics have forced spam to increase in literary value until it's often more interesting than non-spam emails |
| 11:24 | Philip` | goes away for a bit |
| 11:36 | <Lachy> | I'm guessing Hixie never got his earthquake prevention kit returned, since there was a quake in Mountain View. ;-) http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/asa/archives/2009/03/earthquake_litt.html |
| 12:45 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/attachment.cgi?id=66 |
| 12:45 | <MikeSmith> | if/when you have time to review |
| 12:48 | <Philip`> | Are rel values in RDFa meant to be case-insensitive? |
| 12:49 | <Philip`> | (I saw http://planet.mozilla.org/ has some rel="cc:attributionurl", when it's meant to be attributionURL) |
| 12:49 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: looks good, except instead of looking up the for attribute by name individually, I'd pick up the value in the loop that loops over all the attributes anyway |
| 12:49 | <hsivonen> | I now see that the old WF 2.0 templating stuff needs removing |
| 12:50 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: yeah, noticed that too |
| 12:50 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: no, but maybe they should be |
| 12:50 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: without declaring the prefix, of course |
| 12:51 | <zcorpan> | maybe some prefixes should be hardcoded, too |
| 12:52 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: I will send a patch for the removal of the templating stuff as well |
| 12:52 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: great! thanks |
| 12:52 | <hsivonen> | it seems it's not Planet Mozilla's fault that xmlns:cc is not there. it's not in the original, either. |
| 12:54 | <Philip`> | Hmm... http://armenzg.blogspot.com/2009/03/how-to-add-creative-commons-license-to.html has attributionURL |
| 12:54 | <Philip`> | It also has cc="http://creativecommons.org/ns#"; |
| 12:54 | <Philip`> | (but no xmlns:cc) |
| 12:55 | <Philip`> | in both the textarea and the raw code |
| 12:55 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: and an NC license :-( |
| 12:56 | <Philip`> | Does Planet Mozilla strip the cc attribute and make rel lowercase, including in the textarea code? or is it not quite that crazy, and the original blog post just got updated later? |
| 12:56 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: if Planet Mozilla runs Venus, I'd expect it to drop a CC attribute and lowercase rel |
| 12:57 | <Philip`> | Inside <textarea> too? |
| 12:57 | <hsivonen> | unlikely |
| 12:58 | <Philip`> | I suppose it might if it gets parsed as XML, so <textarea><a cc/></textarea> is sanitised and then printed as <textarea><a /></textarea> |
| 12:59 | <Philip`> | (which displays as a textarea containing the string "<a />") |
| 13:09 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: i'm not sure i like the idea of enumerating namespaces and elements in web dom core |
| 13:22 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: updated patch: |
| 13:22 | <MikeSmith> | http://bugzilla.validator.nu/attachment.cgi?id=67 |
| 13:25 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: look good except ("for" == attLocal) should be ("for" == attLocal && "label" == localName) |
| 13:26 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: with that change, r=hsivonen |
| 13:27 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: excellent -- thanks. will make that change and get it checked in |
| 13:29 | Philip` | likes it adds nine lines of code just so you can read a field |
| 13:29 | <Philip`> | *likes how |
| 13:30 | <MikeSmith> | you should see how many lines of code it adds if you want to check it in XPath |
| 13:44 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: so I still need to add a check on <label> for the constraint "with at most one descendant labelable form-associated element" |
| 13:44 | <MikeSmith> | maybe can get that done today |
| 13:47 | <MikeSmith> | "labelable form-associated element" seems redundant, given that "labelable" is defined as a subcategory of "form-associated element" |
| 13:48 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: hmm. good point. that seems to need another bit on the bitfield |
| 13:48 | <hsivonen> | to track labels being on the stack regardless of whether it has the for attribute |
| 13:48 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: so that bit should go into the low bits using the existing element bit mechanism |
| 13:49 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: why not the high bits? |
| 13:49 | <hsivonen> | and then the stack node also needs a flag that gets set upon the first labelable ancestor |
| 13:50 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: because there's a generic mechanism for element bits |
| 13:50 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: it turns out that label already has a bit, since it is in SPECIAL_ANCESTORS |
| 13:50 | <MikeSmith> | ah yeah |
| 13:52 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: you mean stack-node flag needs to get set on first labelable descendant, right? |
| 13:52 | <MikeSmith> | (not ancestor) |
| 13:53 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: right |
| 13:53 | <MikeSmith> | k |
| 14:05 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: about assertions.sch, would you object to me changing the id() checks into either (1) explicit checks for the id attribute, or (2) checks for id|xml:id ? |
| 14:06 | <MikeSmith> | I ask because I think it would be good to be able to use assertions.sch with plain-vanialla jing |
| 14:12 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: my kneejerk reaction is against checking the attributes instead of id() |
| 14:12 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: but I don't remember why I wanted to migrate towards id() |
| 14:13 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: supposing that xml:id isn't that interesting to support, what downsides would there be with comparing id attribute with WS-normalization vs. id()? |
| 14:17 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: downside is that a stock schematron checker does not know that id() should check attributes named "id", right? |
| 14:18 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: I meant does doing what you are proposing minus checks for xml:id have any downsides? |
| 14:18 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: the downside of id() is clear to me |
| 14:19 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: oh, I se |
| 14:19 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: If you change it away from id() to check agains @id, I think xml:id support could be thrown out at the same time |
| 14:21 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: I can't really think of any downsides. |
| 14:21 | <MikeSmith> | though maybe somebody who knows more about XPath and XSLT could |
| 14:22 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: ok. I think the change is OK then (given care with zapping leading and trailing spaces) |
| 14:22 | <MikeSmith> | OK |
| 14:26 | <MikeSmith> | do XML parsers in browsers actually do what's expected with xml:id anyway? |
| 14:27 | <MikeSmith> | I mean as far as using a fragment reference to an xml:id in a hyperlink |
| 14:27 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: opera does... though an element can only have one ID |
| 14:27 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: what's expected? ;-) Opera assigns IDness to xml:id. Gecko and WebKit don't. |
| 14:28 | <MikeSmith> | I guess I'd assume that expected would be to assign IDness |
| 14:28 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: moreover, xml:id support has been explicitly rejected from both Gecko and WebKit but for different reasons |
| 14:28 | <MikeSmith> | I see |
| 14:28 | <hsivonen> | the Gecko rejection was due to perf issue |
| 14:28 | <MikeSmith> | then seems like xml:id should be considered harmful |
| 14:28 | <zcorpan> | wasn't it implemented in gecko at some point? |
| 14:28 | <hsivonen> | and, IIRC, the WebKit rejection was in order to avoid stuff that isn't needed |
| 14:29 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: my understanding is that it was on the trunk for a short while |
| 14:29 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: ok |
| 14:29 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: smaug knows the details, since he wrote the patch |
| 14:29 | <zcorpan> | maybe i should push for it to be dropped in opera |
| 14:29 | <hsivonen> | please do |
| 14:30 | <zcorpan> | along with xml 1.1 :) |
| 14:30 | <taf2> | is there any plan to have a blob api in html5 ? i don't see any mention of it in the specs/web-apps |
| 14:31 | <taf2> | or maybe i'm looking for the wrong name? |
| 14:31 | <zcorpan> | though i suspect dropping 1.1 means implementing 1.0 5e |
| 14:31 | <MikeSmith> | taf2: there was some discussion in the webapps wg, iirc |
| 14:31 | <hsivonen> | taf2: APIs in that ballpark are in the realm of the Web Apps WG |
| 14:31 | <taf2> | hsivonen: ah... does that mean i'm in the wrong place? |
| 14:33 | <hsivonen> | taf2: not quite wrong but #webapps on the W3C IRC server would be a more correct place for reaching the interested parties for discussing blog speccing |
| 14:33 | <annevk42> | taf2, there's a specific webapps wg channel but it's not very active |
| 14:34 | <MikeSmith> | taf2: |
| 14:34 | <MikeSmith> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2008JulSep/thread.html#msg186 |
| 14:34 | <annevk42> | taf2, blob was briefly discussed here yesterday though |
| 14:35 | <annevk42> | or "today" http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090331#l-6 |
| 14:35 | <MikeSmith> | taf2: maybe could also try ask weinig on #webkit |
| 14:38 | <taf2> | thanks all.. lots of information for me to collect |
| 14:46 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: as far as zapping leading and trailing spaces, is there something more I should do than just using normalize-space() ? |
| 14:49 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: oops. actually, HTML5 id shouldn't undergo space-normalization |
| 14:49 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: or so I think |
| 14:50 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: so no normalize-space(). sorry. |
| 14:50 | <MikeSmith> | hmm, I guess I should read the spec |
| 14:50 | <MikeSmith> | OK, np |
| 14:50 | <hsivonen> | "If the value is not the empty string, user agents must associate the element with the given value (exactly, including any space characters) for the purposes of ID matching--" |
| 14:50 | <MikeSmith> | ah, OK |
| 14:57 | <annevk42> | hmm, I guess for xml:id this is different due to the XML parser |
| 14:57 | <annevk42> | I suppose it's undefined whether it's different on the DOM level? |
| 14:58 | <MikeSmith> | I guess I could just use local-name() = "id" |
| 14:59 | <MikeSmith> | but would there be any point? |
| 15:24 | <hsivonen> | annevk42: Isn't xml:id processing quite defined? |
| 15:25 | <hsivonen> | annevk42: in the case of XHTML5 id, the XML parser would perform AVNormalize before the HTML5 rule is applied |
| 15:25 | <hsivonen> | annevk42: but normalizing space in XPath would be wrong, becaus XHTML5 id could containt NCR-escaped spaces |
| 15:33 | <annevk42> | hsivonen, what if you set xml:id through the DOM |
| 15:34 | <annevk42> | http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-id/#id-avn |
| 15:34 | <annevk42> | they state as if those rules should apply to id="" as well |
| 15:40 | <hsivonen> | annevk42: who'd set an attribute via the DOM? :-) |
| 15:51 | <Philip`> | Setting attributes via the DOM? Sounds like imperative scripting, which went out of fashion years ago |
| 15:55 | <gsnedders> | hi babes |
| 15:56 | <Philip`> | Wrong channel? :-p |
| 15:56 | <gsnedders> | no |
| 15:56 | <gsnedders> | :P |
| 15:56 | <gsnedders> | You expect logic |
| 16:10 | <gsnedders> | What are we doing for tomorrow? |
| 16:13 | <myakura> | it's already apr 1 here :( |
| 17:13 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/attachment.cgi?id=68 |
| 17:13 | <zcorpan> | jhäiä |
| 17:13 | <zcorpan> | jnm |
| 17:13 | <zcorpan> | pjon |
| 17:13 | <zcorpan> | jag heter simon igenklien inte zcorpan |
| 17:14 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: seems reasonable but my XPath skills aren't good enough to say if it's OK |
| 17:15 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: if // means descendant, looks good |
| 17:16 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: It's the same as node::self-or-descendant |
| 17:16 | <gsnedders> | (or it is descendant-or-self?) |
| 17:16 | gsnedders | still thinks an advert saying, "How do I ask her out?", is inappropriate on a page about Lolita |
| 17:19 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: yeah, leading // just means descendant of root, so matches any occurrence anywhere in the document |
| 17:29 | <annevk42> | MikeSmith, why does it say "HIDEN" instead of "HIDDEN"? |
| 17:29 | <annevk42> | oh nm |
| 17:29 | <annevk42> | it's inside translate |
| 17:29 | <MikeSmith> | annevk42: it's just a string translation, yeah |
| 17:29 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 17:29 | <annevk42> | there's no case-insensitive matching? |
| 17:30 | <annevk42> | or do you get Turkish i issues then? |
| 17:43 | gsnedders | sighs at people bitching about bugs without reporting them or saying what they are |
| 17:44 | <Dashiva> | "The program crashed. My computer is fine, so I'm not posting error details." |
| 17:46 | <Philip`> | You shouldn't write buggy code in the first place! |
| 17:46 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: I don't think it is buggy |
| 17:47 | <Philip`> | You shouldn't write code which somebody could interpret as being buggy in the first place! |
| 17:47 | gsnedders | shrugs |
| 17:50 | <jgraham> | You shouldn't shrug |
| 17:55 | gsnedders | uploads the side-effect of staying up all night working on English dissertation |
| 17:55 | <gsnedders> | http://www.flickr.com/photos/gsnedders/3401411365/ |
| 17:58 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Try a 2:1 crop |
| 17:58 | <jgraham> | (less sky) |
| 17:58 | <jgraham> | (because most of the interesting colours are in the bottom 50% of the picture, and having slightly more foreground would make it more balanced IMHO |
| 18:00 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Also, re Rosenkällasjön, I pronounce it incorrectly |
| 18:00 | <jgraham> | For sure |
| 18:00 | <gsnedders> | :) |
| 18:01 | MikeSmith | smiles at "Turkish i issues" |
| 18:01 | <jgraham> | (I would guess Rrooo-sen-kaell-as-yoen) |
| 18:02 | <jgraham> | (But I really really do not know any Swedish pronounciation) |
| 18:02 | <jgraham> | (Partially because our teacher won't teach us it yet) |
| 18:02 | <gsnedders> | That sounds like a good way to teach a language |
| 18:03 | <jgraham> | :) |
| 18:03 | <jgraham> | MikeSmith: Who is hving Turkish I issues? |
| 18:04 | <MikeSmith> | jgraham: comment from annevk42 above |
| 18:04 | <jgraham> | Oh, I see |
| 18:04 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: I quite like the texture of the colour of the blues in the upper half of the photo though |
| 18:04 | gsnedders | was pondering whether to crop it before |
| 18:04 | jgraham | guesses it is time to go home |
| 19:46 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: one more patch if you still awake |
| 19:46 | <MikeSmith> | http://bugzilla.validator.nu/attachment.cgi?id=70 |
| 20:57 | gsnedders | wonders whether http://www.opera.com/company/jobs/opening/211/ means the start of April 1st or the end of April 1st |
| 20:59 | <takkaria> | how about "on April 1st". :) |
| 20:59 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: And which timezone? |
| 21:00 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Yeah, that's my other issue, especially if it means 2009-03-31T23:59:59+02:00 |
| 21:01 | <Philip`> | I suppose you could always not leave it until literally the last minute |
| 21:02 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: I don't intend on doing so, but I still need to finish CV |
| 21:02 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: It seems like the Swedish internships don't have the same deadline |
| 21:03 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Those are apparently meant for 2008! |
| 21:03 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: (And apparently someone screwed up in the website redesign) |
| 21:05 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: I was under the impression we had internships in linkoping this year (although I guess I might have misunderstood how things work or something) |
| 21:06 | <jgraham> | So it seems worth applying |
| 21:06 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Apparently you do. Apparently what I linked to isn't exclusively Oslo. |
| 21:06 | <jgraham> | Oh, I see |
| 21:06 | gsnedders | probably ought to ask around here to see if anyone here can give a reference |
| 21:07 | <gsnedders> | Though it probably ought not be someone working for Op |
| 21:07 | <gsnedders> | (Hixie?) |
| 21:07 | <jgraham> | Yeah :) |
| 21:07 | <takkaria> | yeah, in my phone interview, I believe I was told that the internships were linkoping |
| 21:08 | gsnedders | has convinced his English teacher to do a character reference for him… and he's Norwegian, coincidentally :P |
| 21:08 | <Philip`> | Character reference, like &gsnedders; ? |
| 21:08 | gsnedders | headdesks |
| 21:08 | <takkaria> | I took the easy way out, and said "references available on request" |
| 21:09 | gsnedders | is tempted to do that on grounds that it gives him a few more days |
| 21:09 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: I don't think you need to worry about references unless they ask for them |
| 21:10 | <jgraham> | Just get your CV and cover letter together. Now. |
| 21:10 | <jgraham> | :) |
| 21:10 | <gsnedders> | Do I really need to copy Hixie and have an "Objective"? |
| 21:10 | gsnedders | has never come across that before |
| 21:13 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: No |
| 21:14 | gsnedders | thought not |
| 21:14 | <svl> | gsnedders: an objective (or sometimes profile) is just a way to describe yourself at a higher level; what _you_ are looking for (helpful with determining if you're a good fit, and showing where you want your focus to lie). It can be useful, but is never essential. |
| 21:20 | gsnedders | has mouse battery die on him |
| 21:37 | gsnedders | hopes rendering issues with CV in IE7 isn't an issue |
| 21:37 | gsnedders | expects not |
| 21:53 | <gsnedders> | http://secret.gsnedders.com/foo3.html — why does the date appear below the title in IE7? |
| 21:54 | gsnedders | may as well fix it if someone can find out why |
| 21:54 | gsnedders | doesn't currently have access to IE7 |
| 21:55 | <gsnedders> | Can I coerce a couple of people here at looking at my CV? |
| 22:13 | <jos3ph> | Are all of the python html5lib 0.11 tests expected to pass? I got "failures=23, errors=527" on Debian Etch with python2.4. |
| 22:22 | <takkaria> | gsnedders: happily will look at it when it's done |
| 22:25 | <roc> | annevk42: ping? |
| 22:26 | <annevk42> | pong? |
| 22:30 | <annevk42> | someone should prolly explain why http://adactio.com/journal/1564 is wrong |
| 22:35 | <annevk42> | specifically, role=banner is duplication of section 4.4.10.2 and role=search is duplication of type=search; a <form> with type=search control in it is the search form |
| 22:38 | <annevk42> | also, the comment was not about role=banner, but about role=heading and how that affects the document outline |
| 22:39 | <annevk42> | (it's also not about "false clash |
| 22:40 | <annevk42> | oops |
| 22:42 | <Hixie> | annevk42: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6491 |
| 22:42 | <Hixie> | annevk42: how does wrap=off differ from wrap=soft? is it only a rendering difference? |
| 22:43 | <annevk42> | (I meant to say that this should not about vocab1 versus vocab2.) |
| 22:44 | <annevk42> | Hixie, could be, I forgot :/ |
| 22:44 | <Hixie> | how do you propose i fix the bug? :-) |
| 22:46 | <roc> | annevk42: sorry ... |
| 22:47 | <annevk42> | Hixie, rendering wise I suppose; I haven't looked at submission |
| 22:47 | <Hixie> | should it be conforming? or just a legacy value? |
| 22:47 | <roc> | annevk42: I'd kinda like to add window.innerScreenX/innerScreenY, to give the screen coordinates of the top-left of the viewport ... do you think that would be bad? |
| 22:47 | <annevk42> | legacy since it's just rendering |
| 22:48 | <annevk42> | roc, it's not pretty |
| 22:48 | <roc> | it's prettier than screenX/Y, which are basically useless since you don't know how much window chrome there is |
| 22:49 | <annevk42> | and we can't break screenX/Y? |
| 22:49 | <roc> | I'm reluctant to |
| 22:49 | <Hixie> | just define screenX/Y to be innerScreenX/Y with a fixed offset |
| 22:49 | <annevk42> | note that with these two additional attributes you can know how much space chrome takes up at the top and left, is that a problem? |
| 22:50 | <Hixie> | that way you don't break compat, and you still have the predictability |
| 22:50 | <Hixie> | (still not pretty though) |
| 22:50 | <roc> | annevk42: I don't think so |
| 22:51 | <annevk42> | are you just implementing these to fill a gap or is there some request that triggers this? |
| 22:51 | <roc> | that value hardly ever changes anyway, if you just guessed values based on the user-agent you'd be right most of the time |
| 22:51 | <annevk42> | true |
| 22:51 | <roc> | hang on interrupt |
| 22:52 | <Hixie> | annevk42, roc: seems like reusing screenX/Y without breaking compat but defining a fixed required offset is the simplest solution, no? |
| 22:54 | <karlcow> | [17:35] <annevk42> someone should prolly explain why http://adactio.com/journal/1564 is wrong |
| 22:54 | <karlcow> | interesting. In a sense, it's almost the only logical answer. Because each community is convinced the other one is wrong. (hmmmm more thinking about communities expressing themselves but not listening) |
| 22:54 | <annevk42> | adactio is not really part of either community |
| 22:55 | karlcow | cqfd |
| 22:55 | <annevk42> | puh |
| 22:56 | <annevk42> | Hixie, it's very ugly |
| 22:57 | <annevk42> | and it changes really really old APIs which is troublesome at best |
| 22:58 | <roc> | Hixie: that breaks the invariant that window.screenX/Y is equal to the window.open top/left parameters |
| 22:58 | <Hixie> | ah |
| 22:58 | <Hixie> | well i'm happy to drop support for window.open()'s features argument anyway |
| 22:58 | <roc> | although that invariant doesn't always hold for various reasons, it's hard to predict what effect that might have |
| 22:58 | <Hixie> | so :-) |
| 23:00 | <annevk42> | textarea[wrap=off] { white-space:no-wrap } |
| 23:04 | <annevk42> | hmm, we're not controversial enough anymore for mr last week: http://lastweekinhtml5.blogspot.com/2009/03/shutting-shit-down.html |
| 23:05 | <Hixie> | wow, mr last week is still going on? |
| 23:05 | <Hixie> | i haven't looked at it in months |
| 23:05 | <gsnedders> | Oh sure |
| 23:05 | <gsnedders> | He's gone down-hill from his prior fun, but still marches on |
| 23:05 | <annevk42> | it's really boring, yeah |
| 23:11 | <Hixie> | on another note, maybe we should try to encourage the whatwg community to review the spec over the coming few weeks or months |
| 23:11 | <Hixie> | in preparation for last call |
| 23:12 | <gsnedders> | Pay us! |
| 23:13 | <Philip`> | More generically: Incentivise us! |
| 23:13 | <Philip`> | Money is expensive, but give people points and badges and things |
| 23:13 | <gsnedders> | 2.56 CHF for each comment! |
| 23:13 | <Hixie> | interesting idea |
| 23:14 | <Hixie> | the points, not the money :-P |
| 23:14 | <Hixie> | i wonder how to do it in a way that leads to quality reviews |
| 23:14 | gsnedders | slumps back down |
| 23:16 | Philip` | was reading http://lostgarden.com/2008/10/princess-rescuing-application-slides.html a while ago about applying game design principles to other activities |
| 23:18 | <Philip`> | although I'm not sure that's relevant to anything at all |
| 23:18 | <Philip`> | except to the extent that giving people points and achievements seems a gameish thing to do and an effective way to make people sink huge amounts of time into stuff |
| 23:19 | Lachy | presses the button only to realise that it's just a link to a larger version of the image. |
| 23:19 | Lachy | wonders if the princess will ever be rescued ;-) |
| 23:21 | <Philip`> | Of course she won't - the princess is always in another castle |
| 23:26 | <karlcow> | s/castle/ivory tower/ |
| 23:27 | <annevk42> | Hixie, reddit style? |
| 23:27 | <annevk42> | Hixie, allowing people to vote up/down reviews/comments |
| 23:27 | <Hixie> | if we could do this without actually requiring any code that would be ideal :-) |
| 23:27 | <Hixie> | i don't want to spend six weeks writing a tool to get more feedback :-) |
| 23:28 | <annevk42> | I heard reddit is open source |
| 23:28 | <karlcow> | StackOverflow has a nice community system, though a bit too much boyscout (quite protestant in fact) |
| 23:28 | <Philip`> | annevk42: What would the benefit of voting be? Presumably Hixie's going to read all the comments anyway, so nobody has a reason to vote on anybody else's comments |
| 23:30 | <gsnedders> | re: voting. http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/10/06/2017254&from=rss |
| 23:31 | <karlcow> | gsnedders: have you tried stackoverflow? There is a kind of credentials system with more rights step by step depending on the value of your contribution. |
| 23:32 | <gsnedders> | karlcow: Not much. But I've seen that fall into the same trap as digg :( |
| 23:32 | <karlcow> | Ah interesting, I didn't have the same feeling |
| 23:33 | <Philip`> | Clearly what we need is a virtual fishtank where you get to add a fish for each valid piece of feedback you send, because everybody wants pretty fish |
| 23:34 | <gsnedders> | In http://secret.gsnedders.com/foo3.html the date beside the header appears (vertically) down below it, as if the margin isn't being set to zero on the date. Without a copy of IE (of any version, yet alone 7 specifically, where this issue occurs) to play with, I'm rather lost about possible causes. Any ideas? |
| 23:34 | <roc> | annevk42: so ... would innerScreenX/Y make me a bad person? |
| 23:35 | <gsnedders> | Positively evil! |
| 23:35 | <gsnedders> | Wait, no, negatively evil! |
| 23:35 | <gsnedders> | Actually, hmm… |
| 23:35 | <gsnedders> | :P |
| 23:35 | <karlcow> | oooh |
| 23:45 | <annevk42> | roc, the use case is still not really compelling |
| 23:46 | <annevk42> | roc, i'd rather we not do it, but if we have to those would be the best names |
| 23:47 | <roc> | ok |
| 23:48 | <roc> | I'll probably add mozInnerScreenX/Y then |
| 23:49 | <annevk42> | ah, it's getBoxObjectFor() fallout? |
| 23:49 | <annevk42> | that works |
| 23:50 | <roc> | yeah |
| 23:50 | <roc> | some people were using getBoxObjectFor to get screen coords |
| 23:50 | <roc> | not really for Web content though which is why I can't give a good use case |
| 23:55 | karlcow | is discovering http://www.peertopatent.org/ |