| 01:03 | <Hixie> | philip: i like the subtle change at the end |
| 01:06 | Philip` | couldn't think of anything more interesting to do |
| 05:30 | <MikeSmith> | nico1: for more on whatwg, see http://www.whatwg.org/ |
| 05:31 | <MikeSmith> | note also that this channel and #html-wg and #webapps are logged, and you can read the logs at http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ |
| 05:31 | <MikeSmith> | mostly we talk about HTML5 and browser stuff |
| 05:32 | <nico1> | thanks a lot MikeSmith ! |
| 06:03 | <Niictar24> | Hrm |
| 06:04 | Niictar24 | contemplates reading up on the content model |
| 06:25 | <MikeSmith> | nico1: http://validator.nu/ |
| 06:26 | <MikeSmith> | http://about.validator.nu/ |
| 06:27 | <MikeSmith> | http://hsivonen.iki.fi/thesis/html5-conformance-checker.xhtml |
| 06:30 | <MikeSmith> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/ |
| 06:31 | <MikeSmith> | nico1: ↑ |
| 06:31 | <MikeSmith> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/syntax.html#parsing |
| 06:34 | <MikeSmith> | nico1: http://blog.whatwg.org/validatornu-html-parser-120 |
| 06:34 | <MikeSmith> | http://about.validator.nu/htmlparser/ |
| 06:35 | <MikeSmith> | http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/ |
| 06:36 | <MikeSmith> | http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/issues/list |
| 06:53 | <hsivonen> | sigh at the adactio post. some really should explain why we don't like landmarks, but I guess blogging on April 1 is a bad idea |
| 06:54 | <hsivonen> | (or, rather, why we don't like architectural forms as the means of expressing landmarks) |
| 07:32 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: so I'm discovering a bit about schematron |
| 07:32 | <MikeSmith> | e.g., it has a <name/> element to report the name of the context node |
| 07:33 | <MikeSmith> | so one can do, e.g.: |
| 07:33 | <MikeSmith> | [[ |
| 07:33 | <MikeSmith> | <rule context='h:h1|h:h2|h:h3|h:h4|h:h5|h:h6'> |
| 07:33 | <MikeSmith> | <report test='ancestor::h:footer'> |
| 07:33 | <MikeSmith> | The <name/> element must not |
| 07:33 | <MikeSmith> | appear as a descendant of the |
| 07:33 | <MikeSmith> | “footer” element. |
| 07:33 | <MikeSmith> | </report> |
| 07:33 | <MikeSmith> | ]] |
| 07:35 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: does that work in Jing? |
| 07:36 | <MikeSmith> | yeah, it does |
| 07:36 | <MikeSmith> | I just tested it |
| 07:36 | <MikeSmith> | it's in Schematron 1.5, and Jing supports that |
| 07:36 | <MikeSmith> | or does now at least |
| 07:36 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: interesting. I knew Rick Jelliffe's XSLT implementation had something like that but I always thought it was a later addition |
| 07:36 | <MikeSmith> | I'd guess that it might now have previously |
| 07:37 | <hsivonen> | that's possible |
| 07:37 | <MikeSmith> | anyway, if I use <name>, it could eliminate a whole lotta redunancy that's in assertions.sch now |
| 07:38 | <hsivonen> | seems like a good idea |
| 07:42 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/attachment.cgi?id=70 looks good, except I don't see you using the label locators at all for location reporting. |
| 07:42 | MikeSmith | looks back at patch |
| 07:42 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: what's the purpose of collecting forVals into a set first instead of doing the id matching as part of the stack walk? |
| 07:45 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: purpose is mainly that's just the simplest way it initially occurred to me to do it. |
| 07:45 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: I should just set a boolean instead? |
| 07:45 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: preferably, yes |
| 07:45 | <MikeSmith> | when it finds a match for the id value? |
| 07:45 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: OK |
| 07:46 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: about your other question, I'm still looking |
| 07:47 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: so you saying that it's better not to use the locator mechanism at all for this label case? |
| 07:48 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: or you could also emit a warning that gives the location of the label |
| 07:48 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: unless that turns out to suck as UI. I'm not sure if giving the location of the label would be helpful or annoying from a user POV |
| 07:49 | <danbri> | anyone got a nice simple demo page, showing the use of the HTML5 SQL API? |
| 07:50 | danbri | hoping i can pre-populate a database with sqllite elsewhere... |
| 07:50 | <billyjackass> | hsivonen: do you think it would be useful to emit those warnings? or overkill? |
| 08:07 | <Lachy> | I wish people would at least try to make april fools jokes sound plausible http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/03/31/1950221&from=rss |
| 08:11 | <MikeSmith> | damn, the quality of postings from Slashdot writers is otherwise so exceptional |
| 08:11 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: you've burst my bubble of deep appreciation for Slashdot |
| 08:12 | <Dashiva> | Lachy: That sounds a lot like... http://www.lunascape.tv/ |
| 08:12 | Hixie | goes to replace his sarcasm detector |
| 08:13 | Dashiva | checks the whatwg blog |
| 08:13 | <Hixie> | blimey, the aria spec is over 80 pages long |
| 08:14 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: I put in warnings like that for some table integrity checking stuff. I don't have user feedback complaining about those. |
| 08:14 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: OK, I will add it then |
| 08:15 | <Dashiva> | http://labs.opera.com/news/2009/04/01/ |
| 08:15 | <Dashiva> | This would be awesome |
| 08:22 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: so... aria. what should i say in the spec? |
| 08:23 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: should i just defer to the wai-aria spec and say that the attributes it defines can be used in html5 for accessibility purposes? |
| 08:24 | <Hixie> | or should i list something explicitly? or what? |
| 08:37 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I had expected the ongoing task force to figure out what makes sense |
| 08:38 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: on the topic of UA conformance: |
| 08:38 | <hsivonen> | defer to the ARIA implementation guide and a (AFAIK) so far non-existent document on resolving native semantic and ARIA semantic conflicts in client implementation |
| 08:40 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: on the topic of authoring conformance: defer states and properties authoring to ARIA and role applicability to given HTML elements to so far non-existent document hopefully flowing out of the work of the task force |
| 08:41 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: if you want to address FUD along the lines of HTML5 hating ARIA, you could already put in notes that defer to the parts of the ARIA spec family that exist |
| 08:44 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: so to elaborate |
| 08:45 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: the task force documents accessibility API mappings for old HTML and ARIA (and perhaps new HTML5 stuff) |
| 08:45 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: from those mappings, it's possible to see what HTML bits and ARIA bits overlap |
| 08:46 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: then it's necessary to define what UAs should do when they get mixed signals (HTML semantics and ARIA role set inconsistently) |
| 08:47 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: or what should happen if an element has a native accessibiilty API mapping and has states and properties as aria-* attributes with no role |
| 08:47 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: hopefully in due course this will live in a W3C document somewhere |
| 08:48 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: so reference that for UA conformance |
| 08:48 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: then, *given* the behaviors documented in that document, some element/role combinations will be non-sensical. I think those should be flaggable as non-conforming by validators. |
| 08:49 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: but defining those cases needs to wait until the UA conformance reqs show what combinations are non-sensical to author |
| 08:50 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: if it were up to me, I'd put a statement of intent to this direction as a note in the HTML 5 spec |
| 08:51 | <hsivonen> | which reminds me that I should review the latest draft of ARIA |
| 09:19 | jgraham | agrees ith pretty much everything hsivoen said, fwiw |
| 09:33 | hsivonen | finally starts dogfooding HTML5 parsing builds (not an April fools joke) |
| 09:36 | jgraham | wonders if hsivonen will append (not an aprils fools joke to all statements made today) |
| 09:36 | <jgraham> | s/(// s//(/ |
| 09:36 | <jgraham> | actually I didn't need any brackets |
| 09:36 | <jgraham> | sigh |
| 09:37 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: hopefully only the ones that seem potentially unbelievable |
| 09:38 | <hsivonen> | Actually, as far as a parser goes, I've been ready for dogfood for a while now. I was waiting for an image cache crasher to go away |
| 09:38 | <takkaria> | hm, that's like xkcd's (no pun intended) |
| 09:45 | <jgraham> | takkaria: Really? How would you use it? Like I hear they're making an HTML 5 (not an april fools joke) |
| 09:54 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: "<li>There can only be one character encoding declaration in the document.</p>" |
| 10:25 | <hsivonen> | hmm. identi.ca looks wrong with the HTML5 parser |
| 10:25 | <hsivonen> | all the content is "below the fold" |
| 10:26 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: You got new try builds avaliable? |
| 10:27 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: yes. https://build.mozilla.org/tryserver-builds/2009-03-30_05:34-hsivonen⊙if/ |
| 10:27 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: it doesn't have all the latest namespace fixes |
| 10:27 | <hsivonen> | XPath in text/html is probably broken in that build |
| 10:33 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: That build reliably crashes when visiting the live dom viewer |
| 10:37 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: identi.ca doesn't have any interesting parse errors |
| 10:39 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: on which platform? WFM on Mac. |
| 10:39 | <hsivonen> | oops. not WFM |
| 10:40 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: crashes here, too. thanks. |
| 10:40 | <zcorpan> | i still wonder why the parser should imply <colgroup> |
| 10:40 | <hsivonen> | aargh. the image cache crash is still there |
| 10:40 | <zcorpan> | and why the content model requires colgroup around col |
| 10:41 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: do you also see imgCacheEntry stuff on the top of the crash stack? |
| 10:41 | <hsivonen> | --> Lunch |
| 10:42 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: Does col without colgroup make any sense? |
| 10:45 | <zcorpan> | jgraham: just as much as tr without tbody. lone col is valid in html4 and xhtml1 |
| 10:58 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/attachment.cgi?id=71 |
| 11:00 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: just tweaked to set boolean hasFor instead of collecting the "for" values |
| 11:19 | <zcorpan> | http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%3Cp%3E%3Cobject%3E%3Cp%3E%3C%2Fobject%3E%3C%2Fp%3E%3Cscript%3Edocument.write(document.getElementsByTagName('object').length)%3C%2Fscript%3E |
| 11:19 | zcorpan | is really confused |
| 11:19 | <zcorpan> | try that in ie8 |
| 11:21 | <Lachy> | Hixie, the Live DOM Viewer clipboard is broken |
| 11:21 | <Lachy> | clipboard.cgi returns 404 |
| 11:23 | <Lachy> | oh, no, it's not. That's Philip`s DOM viewer. |
| 11:24 | <Lachy> | I didn't realise zcorpan had linked to it instead |
| 11:24 | <jgraham> | Lachy: The differencde is somewhat important :) |
| 11:25 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: looks good. You could also break immediately after hasFor = true; |
| 11:25 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: OK |
| 12:16 | <Dashiva> | Darn, we've been shut down |
| 12:21 | <Lachy> | Dashiva, do you mean by Mr Last Week? |
| 12:24 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: have you ran the HTML5 parser on Google's index to see if quirks-mode pages would break if <p><table> always closed the paragraph? |
| 12:25 | <Dashiva> | Lachy: Yes |
| 12:30 | <Lachy> | Dashiva, just ignore MLW. He's just an anonymous coward and a troll. |
| 12:30 | <Philip`> | Be careful - insults will only make him stronger |
| 12:31 | <hsivonen> | does anyone else have data on whether it's feasible to adopt the standards mode behavior for <p><table> in the quirks mode, too? |
| 12:31 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, what sort of data would be useful? |
| 12:32 | <gsnedders> | WTF? This is weird, yet seemingly per-spec. |
| 12:32 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: a Web crawl showing that the case doesn't occur on the Web or doesn't occur on the CSS-enabled Web |
| 12:32 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: or data about Opera having tried dropping the quirk and having gotten bug reports forcing a revert |
| 12:33 | <Lachy> | it could theoretically affect both rendering and scripting if scripts or styles depend on the table being within the p |
| 12:33 | <hsivonen> | true |
| 12:33 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: What? |
| 12:34 | <hsivonen> | it would be sad if the single parsing quirk in HTML5 ended up being Hixie's own making (through Acid2) |
| 12:34 | <Lachy> | I don't think we've tried dropping the quirk before |
| 12:34 | <Lachy> | what did acid2 require? |
| 12:34 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cp%20style%3D%22display%3Arun-in%22%3E%3Cspan%3Efoo%3C%2Fspan%3E%2C%20%3Cspan%3Ebar%0A%3Cp%3Efoo |
| 12:34 | <zcorpan> | that <p><table> close the p |
| 12:34 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: Acid2 requires <p><table> to parse like <p></p><table> |
| 12:35 | <Lachy> | oh, good |
| 12:35 | <hsivonen> | good??? |
| 12:36 | <Lachy> | yes, having the table close the p is always how it's worked in good browsers in standards mode, and was what was requried by html4 |
| 12:36 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: btw, have you found pages breaking because of <ul><li><ul></li>? |
| 12:36 | <hsivonen> | "what was required by html4" is a weak argument |
| 12:37 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: I haven't |
| 12:37 | <zcorpan> | might be worth to research that markup pattern since ie7 and all other browsers except ie8 and html5-enabled gecko don't close the inner ul |
| 12:38 | <Lachy> | true. but it makes the most sense cause it allows the </p> to remain optional even when followed by a table |
| 13:24 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: If there was a version of the HTML parser library that reported occurrences of that quirk, I could run it on my collection of pages |
| 13:26 | <Philip`> | though that wouldn't be too useful if it's less common than ~0.01% |
| 13:27 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: what kind of reporting mechanism do you need? |
| 13:29 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: The easiest would probably be something that prints to stdout in a thread-safe way |
| 13:29 | <annevk42> | I doubt that's the only quirk you'll need though it would be nice. Reparsing is another issue :/ |
| 13:29 | <Philip`> | Actually I suppose that wouldn't quite work since I'd need to print the URI too |
| 13:30 | <hsivonen> | annevk42: is reparsing so important that it trumps security? |
| 13:30 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: would a warning with an easily detectable string work? |
| 13:30 | <annevk42> | hsivonen, ideally it's not, but the security concerns are rather weak |
| 13:33 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: So I would just use setErrorHandler? That sounds easy enough |
| 13:34 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: ok |
| 13:34 | <Philip`> | (Does it matter if I use DOM or SAX?) |
| 13:34 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: no |
| 13:39 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: svn head now does warn("A \u201Ctable\u201D start tag caused a paragraph to close implicitly."); when a table closes a para |
| 13:42 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: Is there a chance you could convert it into a .jar file? :-) |
| 13:42 | Philip` | doesn't have a version checked out from SVN |
| 13:42 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: ok |
| 13:44 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/htmlparser-philip-2009-04-01.jar |
| 13:45 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: Thanks! |
| 13:47 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: Hmm, I get lots of org.w3c.dom.DOMException: INVALID_CHARACTER_ERR: An invalid or illegal XML character is specified. |
| 13:47 | <Philip`> | (which I didn't get using 1.0.7) |
| 13:47 | <Philip`> | when I'm using HtmlDocumentBuilder(XmlViolationPolicy.ALTER_INFOSET) |
| 13:48 | <Philip`> | By "lots" I mean "one", plus many NAMESPACE_ERR: An attempt is made to create or change an object in a way which is incorrect with regard to namespaces. |
| 13:50 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: hmm. I don't know what I've broken. Do you have a URL that triggers those? |
| 13:51 | <Philip`> | http://www.giftology.co.uk gives the NAMESPACE_ERR |
| 13:51 | <Philip`> | http://www.villatraining.ca/ gives the INVALID_CHARACTER_ERR |
| 13:53 | <hsivonen> | netquotevar:="" |
| 13:55 | <Philip`> | It also gives NAMESPACE_ERR on e.g. http://www.autobanga.lt/ which doesn't seem to use anything interesting except xml:lang |
| 13:56 | <Philip`> | (unless the code changed in the past few months) |
| 13:56 | <hsivonen> | seems like something is badly wrong in the XML sanity code |
| 13:57 | <Philip`> | I hope it's not my fault |
| 13:58 | <Philip`> | Whoops, there's more messages sent to ErrorHandler than I expected |
| 13:58 | <Philip`> | My output file is 3,483,189,354 bytes |
| 13:59 | <Philip`> | I see 8161 URLs (out of ~130K) that trigger the table-closed-p warning |
| 13:59 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: thanks. that seems bad on the face of it |
| 14:01 | Philip` | wonders if there's any value in uploading the list |
| 14:02 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: I think there would be. one could pick sites at random and view them with two parsers |
| 14:02 | <gsnedders> | Anyone from Opera aroud? |
| 14:02 | <gsnedders> | *around |
| 14:03 | <MikeSmith> | gsnedders: do I count? |
| 14:03 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: http://philip.html5.org/data/table-implicitly-closed-p.txt |
| 14:04 | <annevk42> | no |
| 14:04 | <gsnedders> | MikeSmith: Probably enough |
| 14:04 | <gsnedders> | Opera wants a transcript of grades, which implies something formal and official. I don't have any digital transcript. |
| 14:04 | <MikeSmith> | gsnedders: I'm still part of the conspiracy, according to some people at least |
| 14:05 | <gsnedders> | Or am I half asleep? |
| 14:05 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: thanks! |
| 14:07 | <zcorpan> | gsnedders: i just sent an email when i applied at opera |
| 14:08 | <Philip`> | http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/893uo/html5_removes_tag_soup_support_goes_xml_only/ - apparently the commenters like the non-XML syntax |
| 14:08 | <gsnedders> | zcorpan: http://www.opera.com/company/jobs/opening/211/ does say to apply online, though |
| 14:08 | <zcorpan> | gsnedders: so? |
| 14:08 | <gsnedders> | zcorpan: That is not email :P |
| 14:09 | <zcorpan> | doesn't mean email is rejected |
| 14:09 | <zcorpan> | i'm not saying you should send an email, though |
| 14:09 | <gsnedders> | :P |
| 14:10 | <annevk42> | waha, http://philip.html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=2942&to=2943 is funny |
| 14:10 | <annevk42> | did someone announce that on blog.whatwg.org ? |
| 14:10 | <annevk42> | especially if you follow the diff all the way to the end, lol |
| 14:10 | <gsnedders> | dt? dimitri? |
| 14:10 | <gsnedders> | Yeah, right |
| 14:10 | <Philip`> | http://twitter.com/WHATWG/status/1427965755 |
| 14:11 | <Philip`> | Clearly not enough people here read the WHATWG Twitter feed |
| 14:11 | <annevk42> | ah sweet |
| 14:11 | <gsnedders> | I guess the entire digg-like style of reddit is April st too? |
| 14:11 | <gsnedders> | *1st |
| 14:12 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: If you can't get a trasnscript at the moment you should apply first and worry later |
| 14:14 | <gsnedders> | http://digg.com/programming/Tag_Soup_Support_Removed_From_HTML5 |
| 14:16 | <Philip`> | It seems much more pointless when it's not blending into the Twitter stream and hiding behind tinyurl |
| 14:19 | <robinduckett> | yo |
| 14:20 | <Philip`> | Hello |
| 14:21 | <robinduckett> | anyone know if the ie8 beta devs have a channel kicking about? |
| 14:21 | <jgraham> | I think kicking the ie8 devs, even over irc, is harsh |
| 14:21 | <robinduckett> | hmmm |
| 14:21 | <robinduckett> | Really? 8) |
| 14:21 | <jgraham> | Although maybe they deserve it for the way they parse <p><object><p> |
| 14:22 | <gsnedders> | But what Travis said was that they were considering fixing that within IE8 |
| 14:22 | <MikeSmith> | robinduckett: the IE8 devs are kept in a hermetically sealed environment |
| 14:22 | <gsnedders> | (implied they were |
| 14:22 | <MikeSmith> | they're not allowed to be exposed directly to open standards |
| 14:22 | <robinduckett> | hahah |
| 14:22 | <Philip`> | robinduckett: I don't think they do IRC; the closest thing is the occasional chats like http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2009/03/24/ie-team-chat-wednesday-firestarter-event-thursday.aspx |
| 14:23 | <robinduckett> | lol msdn, haven't been there since I was 11/12 doing VB6 |
| 14:23 | <gsnedders> | Well, there are normally a few around on irc.w3.org |
| 14:26 | <Philip`> | robinduckett: It's not MSDN, it's just a domain which happens to be hosted on msdn.com perhaps for the reason mentioned in http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2009/03/05/9459157.aspx#9460253 |
| 14:26 | <robinduckett> | lol |
| 14:26 | <robinduckett> | okay |
| 14:27 | <MikeSmith> | robinduckett: did you have something in particular you wanted to ask them about? |
| 14:27 | <MikeSmith> | because they will tell you everything if you just ask them |
| 14:27 | <MikeSmith> | all their product plans, that kind of stuff |
| 14:27 | Philip` | sees http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2009/03/30/compatibility-view-list-and-ie8-rtw.aspx , with links to a spreadsheet of the list, and a claim that "The Compatibility View List is updated on a regular cadence (in a period mirroring IE security updates, approximately every 2 months)" |
| 14:27 | <robinduckett> | just a very strange bug i've been getting on IE8, but it's really intermittant, so i'm going to grab the latest release and see if it still happens |
| 14:28 | <gsnedders> | Even the internals to the brokenness of object in IE < 8 |
| 14:28 | <robinduckett> | lol |
| 14:28 | <MikeSmith> | robinduckett: what's the bug? |
| 14:29 | <robinduckett> | sometimes, clicking a select element to get the drop down, causes the pop up blocker to show up and the drop down to dissapear, and once it does that once it wont work again until the browser is restarted, and then sometimes it will either work for the rest of the day or not at all |
| 14:29 | <robinduckett> | I thought it was a bug in my code, I was doing a car make/model drop down in a form |
| 14:29 | <robinduckett> | and it had a lot of elements, so i thought it was related, but it does it on a two option select box now |
| 14:30 | <robinduckett> | sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't |
| 14:30 | <robinduckett> | very confusing |
| 14:30 | <robinduckett> | so i'll try the latest just incase i'm using some kind of old version |
| 14:30 | gsnedders | has bitchin' cold |
| 14:30 | <gsnedders> | http://secret.gsnedders.com/cv.html — comments? |
| 14:31 | <gsnedders> | (Yes, I do have secret as a subdomain) |
| 14:34 | <MikeSmith> | gsnedders: I think "Author of a number of automatable test cases for parts of the specification." is worthy of more prominence |
| 14:34 | <MikeSmith> | but not sure how to suggest doing that |
| 14:35 | <gsnedders> | <em>! |
| 14:35 | <zcorpan> | gsnedders: although it probably doesn't matter, i think there's a subtle difference between "Public invited expert" and "Invited Expert" |
| 14:36 | <MikeSmith> | if you want to get attention from opera, maybe putting "Can write good test cases all day long." under Skills would be good |
| 14:36 | gsnedders | just went for what it formally is called in the W3C process |
| 14:36 | <Philip`> | MikeSmith: Suggest <font color=red> |
| 14:37 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: But I'm not using a WYSIWYG editor! |
| 14:37 | <MikeSmith> | CSS fire shadow thing |
| 14:38 | <MikeSmith> | however that's done |
| 14:39 | <zcorpan> | gsnedders: also list any test suites you have written |
| 14:39 | <MikeSmith> | gsnedders: have you written any test harness (as opposed to just test cases?) |
| 14:40 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Have you found (and written tests for and reported and got fixed) any bugs in browsers? |
| 14:40 | <zcorpan> | gsnedders: omg it doesn't validate |
| 14:40 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Also, go to a school that is not named after a curry |
| 14:41 | <zcorpan> | wait why does v.nu say h1 is interactive? |
| 14:41 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: ^ |
| 14:42 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: must be copypaste somewhere |
| 14:42 | <zcorpan> | Content model: Flow content, but with no heading content descendants, no sectioning content descendants, no footer element descendants, and no address element descendants. |
| 14:43 | <gsnedders> | Why does it disallow header content? |
| 14:43 | <gsnedders> | And why is there some insect buzzing around in here? |
| 14:44 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: ^^ |
| 14:44 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan: v.nu say h1 is interactive because of a dumb mistake I made |
| 14:44 | <MikeSmith> | sorry |
| 14:44 | gsnedders | slaps MikeSmith |
| 14:44 | <MikeSmith> | it's fixed now |
| 14:44 | <MikeSmith> | in the source |
| 14:44 | <zcorpan> | gsnedders: maybe because it doesn't make sense to have sections in <address>? |
| 14:45 | jgraham | gets scared by this kind of content-model wrangling |
| 14:45 | <gsnedders> | zcorpan: But it isn't a section within address, per the outlining algorithm |
| 14:45 | <gsnedders> | http://gsnedders.html5.org/outliner/process.py?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsecret.gsnedders.com%2Fcv.html |
| 14:46 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Anolis has tests, right? And SimplePie? |
| 14:46 | <gsnedders> | Yeah |
| 14:46 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: You might want to mention that |
| 14:47 | <jgraham> | (Also remove the borders from you tables) |
| 14:47 | <zcorpan> | yes; i think your chances would be better if you removed everything and just pointed to all tests you've written :) |
| 14:47 | <zcorpan> | though i'm not suggesting you remove anything |
| 14:48 | <jgraham> | So you're trying to decrease his chances? |
| 14:48 | <zcorpan> | no |
| 14:49 | <Philip`> | everything < tests < everything+tests |
| 14:49 | <Philip`> | hence it's better to not remove everything, but to still add tests |
| 14:49 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: In particular if there is anything notable about the testing strategy that you adopted for those projects it would be good to incluse |
| 14:50 | <gsnedders> | Basically, I learnt a lot about what not to do from SimplePie :) |
| 14:50 | <jgraham> | At least, I ould think it was good, although my opinion is irrelevant |
| 14:50 | <Philip`> | If there isn't, you've got a good half a day to invent and implement a testing strategy so you've got something to write about |
| 14:50 | <gsnedders> | zcorpan: Why would you say that? |
| 14:50 | <zcorpan> | gsnedders: say what? |
| 14:51 | <gsnedders> | zcorpan: Remove everything and link to tests |
| 14:51 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: He didn't |
| 14:51 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: He typed it, though, and then didn't suggest it |
| 14:51 | <zcorpan> | gsnedders: i just mean that experience with test cases is more important than the other stuff |
| 14:52 | <jgraham> | It certianly seems plausible that is is more importat then standard grade classical studies |
| 14:52 | <jgraham> | Although only getting a 2 in Latin is pretty inexcusable ;) |
| 14:53 | <gsnedders> | :P |
| 14:53 | <Dashiva> | Latin was fun |
| 14:53 | <zcorpan> | http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2007/09/ten-tips-for-slightly-less-awful-resume.html |
| 14:54 | <Lachy> | LOL, check out what YouTube have done to the videos today :-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExkUOOXkGtg&flip=1 |
| 14:55 | <gsnedders> | Oh fun |
| 14:56 | jgraham | notes that US-style resumes seem to be a much more elaborate affair than european CVs |
| 15:02 | <Lachy> | jgraham, what's the difference between them? |
| 15:03 | <annevk42> | how did they flip the text? |
| 15:04 | <Lachy> | sıɥʇ ǝʞıן ʇsnɾ |
| 15:04 | <jgraham> | Lachy: Not sure, but all the sites to do with US resume writing talk about putting in your personal vision and all this stuff (although SY talks about taking it yout, which is good). |
| 15:04 | <Philip`> | http://s.ytimg.com/yt/js/april_fools-vfl84826.js |
| 15:04 | <gsnedders> | annevk42: There are Unicode codepoints for them |
| 15:04 | <jgraham> | Whereas that doesn't seem to be expected here so much |
| 15:04 | <Philip`> | It's just a translation table into glyphs that look similar |
| 15:05 | annevk42 | just found that file |
| 15:08 | Philip` | sees gsnedders engaging in shameless self-promotion by posting his CV to public-html |
| 15:13 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: I didn't mean that. I just wanted to show a real use-case! |
| 15:15 | <Philip`> | Oh, sure |
| 15:15 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: But tables without borders are ugly! |
| 15:15 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Stop providing useful feedback and write your CV |
| 15:15 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: You are wwrong |
| 15:15 | <jgraham> | :) |
| 15:15 | <takkaria> | don't write your CV, watch BBC News 24 instead, it's far more entertaining |
| 15:16 | <gsnedders> | What do they have on at the moment? |
| 15:17 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: The News |
| 15:17 | <takkaria> | just reporters saying things like "the protesters are calling it financial fool's day, which is a pun or play on wards on 'april fool's day'" and "protesters have been using internet websites to organise" |
| 15:18 | <gsnedders> | Not organize? |
| 15:19 | <gsnedders> | :P |
| 15:20 | <takkaria> | they have some fun protests being covered too |
| 15:20 | gsnedders | hates writing this CV |
| 15:23 | <annevk42> | I'm not sure how this case-insensitive is supposed to work for CSS |
| 15:24 | <zcorpan> | should createElement use a list too and use the right namespace based on tag name? |
| 15:24 | <annevk42> | that would only work half the time |
| 15:25 | <annevk42> | e.g. "a", "audio", "video" |
| 15:26 | <jgraham> | what case-insensitive? |
| 15:26 | <jgraham> | Oh, hsivonen's email? |
| 15:26 | <annevk42> | I suppose some CSS bits become case-insensitive when the style sheet is referenced from an HTML document. |
| 15:27 | <hsivonen> | annevk42: the CSS parser knows whether an ident is in the role of an element selector or in the role of an attribute selector |
| 15:27 | <hsivonen> | right? |
| 15:27 | <Lachy> | this is interesting. http://www.addfullsize.com/ I'm not sure it's something that could or would be supported by browsers though. |
| 15:27 | <jgraham> | Lachy: I thought that was strange and crazy |
| 15:28 | <hsivonen> | annevk42: so when the CSS parser has lower-cased such an indent, it would check if the resulting ident is in a lower-to-camel mapping |
| 15:28 | <jgraham> | A whole website dedicated to advocating an attribute? |
| 15:28 | <jgraham> | I double checked for 1st-April related effects |
| 15:28 | <hsivonen> | why hasn't the site admin emailed public-html? |
| 15:28 | <Philip`> | http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20081027#l-302 |
| 15:28 | <annevk42> | hsivonen, and the matcing would be on localName alone? |
| 15:28 | <Lachy> | yeah, the fact that he made a whole website for it instead of mailing the list is crazy |
| 15:29 | <Philip`> | It's months old |
| 15:29 | <hsivonen> | annevk42: right. isn't it already? |
| 15:29 | <annevk42> | hsivonen, e.g. foreignObject in some weird namespace would still be matched by foreignobject { ... } when used in CSS referenced from HTML? |
| 15:29 | <takkaria> | it has been argued about on the whatwg list already, I'm pretty sure |
| 15:29 | <hsivonen> | annevk42: right |
| 15:29 | <hsivonen> | annevk42: which is why textArea can't be on the list |
| 15:29 | <annevk42> | hsivonen, I'm not sure how Selectors case-insensitivity works to be honest :) |
| 15:30 | <hsivonen> | annevk42: I asked bz to be sure :-) |
| 15:30 | <zcorpan> | i thought selectors matched case-insensitively |
| 15:31 | <annevk42> | zcorpan, impl or theory? |
| 15:31 | <zcorpan> | both |
| 15:31 | takkaria | suggests making XML case-insensitive |
| 15:31 | <zcorpan> | takkaria: how about optionally case-insensitive? |
| 15:32 | <zcorpan> | oh wait |
| 15:32 | <annevk42> | zcorpan, e.g. if you createElementNS("x", "TEst") in HTML CSS matches that with "test" in Gecko, WebKit and Presto? |
| 15:32 | <zcorpan> | annevk42: yeah, that's what i had thought, but obviously i was wrong and i hadn't tested |
| 15:32 | <annevk42> | hsivonen, ok, it seems somewhat suboptimal but it is more performant than doing it while matching |
| 15:34 | <Philip`> | http://www.addfullsize.com/ - "Since there is no fullsize attribute for the <IMG> tag yet, I am using the longdesc attribute instead." - hmm |
| 15:34 | <zcorpan> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/50 |
| 15:35 | <jgraham> | Philip`: And that is why markup will always "suck" |
| 15:35 | <annevk42> | zcorpan, Opera is cool |
| 15:35 | <zcorpan> | so opera matches case-insensitively and webkit and gecko lowercase |
| 15:37 | <annevk42> | so how does this work for HTML attribute values that are case-insensitive? |
| 15:37 | <zcorpan> | attribute values will have to match case-insensitively rather than lowercasing |
| 15:37 | <zcorpan> | since they preserve the case in the dom |
| 15:37 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: attribute values are very different from names in Gecko |
| 15:38 | <annevk42> | and do they match case-insensitively regardless of what element they are on? |
| 15:38 | <annevk42> | I'm guessing they do |
| 15:38 | <zcorpan> | annevk42: in opera, only html elements, iirc |
| 15:38 | <hsivonen> | annevk42: IIRC, only on HTML elements in Gecko, but I'd have to check |
| 15:39 | <hsivonen> | (though this whole area is bad for "IIRC") |
| 15:39 | <annevk42> | "HTML elements" being a set? |
| 15:39 | <zcorpan> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jan/0043.html |
| 15:39 | <hsivonen> | annevk42: HTML elements being elements that have their HTMLness bit set |
| 15:40 | <hsivonen> | annevk42: I *think* the bit is consistent with namespace |
| 15:40 | <hsivonen> | annevk42: also, I *think* only HTMLElement instances have the bit set |
| 15:40 | <hsivonen> | actually, it's not a bit that is "set" but a mask that classes respond to |
| 15:41 | <hsivonen> | anyway |
| 15:42 | <annevk42> | I guess it works well in practice and worse in the theoretical case of having two element scoped attributes with the same name but different value space rules :) |
| 15:42 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: does gecko now restrict the attribute value case-insensitivity to html elements? |
| 15:44 | <annevk42> | no |
| 15:44 | <annevk42> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cstyle%3Etest[align%3DteST]{border%3A1em%20solid}%3C%2Fstyle%3E%3Cbody%3E%3Cscript%3Ex%3Ddocument.createElementNS%28%22x%22%2C%20%22test%22%29%3Bx.setAttribute%28%22align%22%2C%22TEST%22%29%3Bdocument.body.appendChild%28x%29%3C%2Fscript%3E |
| 15:44 | <annevk42> | it does it regardless of the element as long as the attribute is in some list |
| 15:44 | <hsivonen> | clearly, my "IIRC" was wrong |
| 15:44 | <annevk42> | though maybe the situation is different in XHTML? |
| 15:45 | <hsivonen> | indeed, the list is in the CSS parser, not in the selector matching code |
| 15:45 | <annevk42> | (Opera doesn't match for that case by the way...) |
| 15:45 | <hsivonen> | FWIW, the list is http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/layout/style/nsCSSParser.cpp#2916 |
| 15:45 | <zcorpan> | annevk42: last i checked gecko didn't do any case-insensitive matching of attribute values in xhtml |
| 15:46 | <annevk42> | making Selectors case-insensitive for attribute values was a stupid mistake |
| 15:46 | <hsivonen> | annevk42: I think that applies more broadly :-) |
| 15:47 | <hsivonen> | (that case-insensitivity was a mistake) |
| 15:47 | <annevk42> | I sort of like we ended up with lowercase being the norm for HTML :) |
| 15:48 | <annevk42> | but yeah, it doesn't buy us much at all |
| 15:48 | <hsivonen> | uppercase being the norm without case-insensitivity would have sucked |
| 15:48 | <zcorpan> | clearly my reverse-engineering skills were not enough to catch all attributes :( |
| 15:49 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: ismap should be in that list |
| 15:50 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: thanks |
| 15:53 | <annevk42> | are we going to extend the list? |
| 15:53 | <annevk42> | hmm |
| 15:53 | <hsivonen> | I thought HTML5 was going to |
| 15:53 | <robinduckett> | anyone know of a commercial in-page wysiwyg editor? |
| 15:54 | <jgraham> | Does anyone know of a library (preferably usable from python) that will allow me to send window manager events to a particular application (in particular that will allow me to make the application fullscreen)? |
| 15:54 | <jgraham> | For linux obviously |
| 15:54 | <annevk42> | hsivonen, I was hoping we'd not enlarge magic lists |
| 15:55 | <zcorpan> | i was missing accept-charset, checked, direction and lang in my list |
| 15:55 | <annevk42> | there's also contenteditable, spellcheck, required, etc. |
| 15:55 | <zcorpan> | yes... |
| 15:56 | zcorpan | mails the list |
| 15:56 | <annevk42> | I rather have the list fixed for eternity |
| 15:57 | <zcorpan> | why? |
| 15:57 | <hsivonen> | annevk42: like the list of elements that implies <p> close? like <footer>? |
| 15:57 | <zcorpan> | and <table>? :) |
| 15:58 | <annevk42> | hsivonen, that's actually a useful feature |
| 16:00 | <annevk42> | this case-insensitive attribute value checking only costs |
| 16:03 | <zcorpan> | annevk42: i think browserse are only doing it for compliance with css21 and html4 |
| 16:03 | <zcorpan> | annevk42: ie gets away with doing case-sensitive matching |
| 16:03 | <zcorpan> | maybe we should change css21 |
| 16:03 | <annevk42> | IE doesn't do it? |
| 16:03 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: IE8 even? |
| 16:03 | <annevk42> | cool |
| 16:03 | <annevk42> | lets kill it |
| 16:03 | <zcorpan> | haven't tested ie8 |
| 16:04 | <zcorpan> | snap, they changed it |
| 16:05 | <hsivonen> | sigh. like <p><table> |
| 16:05 | <annevk42> | should still be doable if everyone is willing |
| 16:05 | <annevk42> | it's pretty isolated piece of code in most impl I assume |
| 16:05 | zcorpan | leaves the convincing work to annevk42 |
| 16:06 | <annevk42> | mwaha |
| 16:08 | <annevk42> | where is this even defined in CSS? |
| 16:08 | <annevk42> | http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/selector.html only talks about element names |
| 16:10 | <zcorpan> | "The case-sensitivity of attribute names and values in selectors depends on the document language." -- http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/selector.html#matching-attrs |
| 16:10 | <annevk42> | meh |
| 16:11 | <annevk42> | for elements it spells it out but here it doesn't |
| 16:11 | <annevk42> | implementations are arguably wrong too |
| 16:11 | <annevk42> | there's nothing in HTML4 that says align on <x> is case-insensitive |
| 16:12 | <annevk42> | (the value of align) |
| 16:12 | <zcorpan> | right |
| 16:12 | <zcorpan> | but that's invalid and html4 leaves handling of invalid documents undefined :) |
| 16:12 | <zcorpan> | so it's not wrong |
| 16:14 | <hsivonen> | I wonder how much lawyer time MS used to develop the TOS for their compat view spreadsheet |
| 16:14 | <annevk42> | so should I take on this fight with www-style? |
| 16:15 | <annevk42> | note also that a literal reading of CSS 2.1 does not allow createElementNS("x","TEst") not to be matched by "test" |
| 16:16 | <hsivonen> | Interesting. Y! has requested their domains be removed from the IE8 blacklist |
| 16:16 | <annevk42> | the other thing is that the only person who would care enough to reply would be Bert Bos prolly claiming that a) the DOM is irrelevant and b) that it's not valid HTML |
| 16:16 | <hsivonen> | annevk42: CSS delegates the decision to HTML :-) |
| 16:17 | <hsivonen> | (but yeah, www-style would be the right list, still) |
| 16:21 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: Also interesting that only about 9 other domains have requested removal, out of over 3000 |
| 16:22 | <Philip`> | Also interesting: When you sort data in OO Calc, and sort on non-unique fields, the ordering of equivalent rows seems to be random, rather than doing something sane like a stable sort |
| 16:23 | <Dashiva> | Go quicksort |
| 16:29 | <annevk42> | e-mailed |
| 16:30 | <annevk42> | hsivonen, if you can prepare a fix for Gecko I and zcorpan can prolly sort it out for Opera... |
| 16:30 | <annevk42> | it would make HTML and XHTML more consistent as well |
| 16:31 | <annevk42> | i should've mentioned that in my e-mail |
| 16:34 | <zcorpan> | annevk42: i've advocated attribute values be case-insensitive in xhtml |
| 16:35 | <zcorpan> | since they are defined to be in xhtml5 |
| 16:35 | <zcorpan> | annevk42: you need to get the css3.info selectors testsuite changed, too |
| 16:37 | <zcorpan> | yeah html5 could say that no attribute values are case-insensitive as far as selectors are concerned without changing css |
| 16:39 | <zcorpan> | annevk42: ie6 doesn't support attribute selectors :) |
| 16:41 | <annevk42> | zcorpan, the way this is implemented now would mean that all align attributes would have their values case-insensitively matched in XHTML... |
| 16:41 | <annevk42> | zcorpan, in XML even, that seems highly suboptimal |
| 16:42 | <annevk42> | zcorpan, yeah, that test suite would need a fix |
| 16:42 | <zcorpan> | annevk42: opera checks html namespace |
| 16:42 | <zcorpan> | annevk42: my proposal was to align with opera |
| 16:42 | <annevk42> | zcorpan, make this mess even more complicated? :) |
| 16:43 | <zcorpan> | basically, though we have already implemented the check |
| 16:43 | <zcorpan> | but i don't mind removing it altogether |
| 16:44 | <Philip`> | http://test.foaf-ssl.net/cert/make?Select=That%27s+ME&webid=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.advogato.org%2Fperson%2Fconnolly%2Ffoaf.rdf%23me |
| 16:45 | <Philip`> | They use <keygen> |
| 16:48 | <Philip`> | http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/cgi/issues.cgi/message/%3CC3CC87D2-2781-4F23-953B-FBD48639E556%40bblfish.net%3E - oh, someone pointed it out already |
| 16:49 | <Philip`> | (Well, not quite that exact implementation) |
| 16:57 | <mpt> | I'm surprised and disappointed that http://saveie6.com/ hasn't been mentioned here yet |
| 17:06 | <robinduckett> | mpt: ooh a new site to ddos |
| 17:39 | gsnedders | stretches |
| 17:50 | <gsnedders> | Anyone still around? |
| 17:50 | <Philip`> | No |
| 17:51 | <gsnedders> | Oh well |
| 17:51 | <gsnedders> | Tragic |
| 17:53 | <robinduckett> | fscking |
| 17:53 | <robinduckett> | IE8 |
| 17:53 | <robinduckett> | sucks. |
| 17:54 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Everyone's dead |
| 17:54 | <Philip`> | robinduckett: For any specific reasons? |
| 17:56 | <gsnedders> | "Mama, just killed a man, Put a gun against his head/Pulled my trigger, now he's dead/Mama, life had just begun/But now I've gone and thrown it all away" |
| 17:58 | <gsnedders> | Does <http://secret.gsnedders.com/cv.html>; seem better yet? |
| 17:59 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: The table still has borders :) |
| 18:00 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Have to go but generally looks OK |
| 18:00 | gsnedders | remembers to upload his changes |
| 18:00 | <gsnedders> | Now it doesn't! |
| 18:00 | Philip` | can quote random lyrics too |
| 18:00 | <Philip`> | "War, it's never been so much fun/War, it's never been so much fun/Go to your brother/Kill him with your gun/Leave him lying in his uniform/Dying in the sun!/War, it's never been so much fun/War, it's never been so much fun" |
| 18:06 | gsnedders | has his hair get in his way again, and remembers why he has for the past months always had it tied back |
| 18:32 | <tantek> | gsnedders, I took a brief look at your cv.html - well done with using hResume |
| 18:32 | <tantek> | perhaps consider adding it to http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume-examples-in-wild |
| 18:35 | <annevk42> | http://wrongtomorrow.com/ is great |
| 18:37 | <annevk42> | "Research has shown that experts make predictions at a rate worse than chance. This site exists in order to hold people and media outlets accountable for pretending to see into an unpredictable future." |
| 18:39 | <benh> | awesome |
| 18:45 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: long term, once aria is mature, what should html5 say? is it going to be the place that needs to define which cases are conflicts? |
| 18:50 | <annevk42> | Hixie, I guess it needs to define what is conforming |
| 18:55 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: You got any thoughts on address and headings, per my email? |
| 19:02 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: i haven't even read e-mail yet |
| 19:03 | <Hixie> | annevk42: any idea what it should say? i don't fancy going through the whole 80+ pages of the aria spec trying to work out what the right thing to say is... |
| 19:10 | <annevk42> | no sorry |
| 19:10 | <annevk42> | I think hsivonen has an idea, but we probably have to wait for the specifics of the implementation guidelines for HTML etc. |
| 19:18 | <benh> | Hixie: listing mutually incompatible roles and elements or attributes and elements might be an approach. |
| 19:18 | <benh> | e.g. input type="checkbox" role="button" |
| 19:19 | <annevk42> | type=checkbox role=checkbox also seems like an error to me |
| 19:20 | <benh> | annevk42: In that particular case, yes. In other similar cases, perhaps not. |
| 19:20 | <benh> | e.g. nav role="navigation" is probably not an author error. |
| 19:20 | <annevk42> | I'd say it is |
| 19:21 | <benh> | if ARIA roles and new elements are not always implemented side-by-side then authors are going to compensate by doubling them up |
| 19:21 | <benh> | so it's not helpful to authors to flag that as an error. |
| 19:21 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: I'd kinda like to know whether my invalid CV will become conforming before submitting it :) |
| 19:21 | <benh> | (maybe a warning?) |
| 19:22 | <annevk42> | it's not clear that ARIA roles and HTML5 elements mean identical things to screen readers so doubling them up should prolly be discouraged |
| 19:22 | <annevk42> | but it's all a bit sketchy |
| 19:23 | <benh> | I'm pretty sure I'd use role="navigation" on nav. |
| 19:23 | <benh> | I think a warning when the semantics partially overlap might be useful. |
| 19:23 | <benh> | but that's a human judgement call type thing |
| 19:23 | <benh> | not a valid/invalid boolean |
| 19:23 | <ojan> | sorry about the webkit failures |
| 19:24 | <annevk42> | ojan, wrong channel? |
| 19:24 | <ojan> | heh...oops |
| 19:24 | <ojan> | sorry |
| 19:24 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Just put a comment in your markup pointing to your email :-) |
| 19:25 | <Philip`> | Then it won't matter if it fails the validator because you've got an excuse, and also you've got a practical demonstration of your ability to contribute to standards-related activities |
| 19:28 | <annevk42> | http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-implementation/ has a start on impl mapping btw |
| 19:31 | <annevk42> | so one of the comments I should make is that they cannot use the Nmtokens production to define whitespace separated because HTML and the DOM do not have whitespace normalization like XML |
| 19:31 | benh | wonders how current ARIA implementations handle input type="checkbox" role="button" |
| 19:31 | <annevk42> | (comments on ARIA) |
| 19:33 | <annevk42> | 7.2 is redundant with the DOM spec |
| 19:35 | <annevk42> | 7.3 has a confusing requirement about AT modifying the DOM and the Web application having to take those changes into account |
| 19:35 | <annevk42> | I thought it was supposed to work the other way around? |
| 19:35 | <benh> | 7.3? doesn't http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-implementation/ end with 7.2.3 ? |
| 19:36 | <annevk42> | I was asked to review http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/ |
| 19:36 | <benh> | oh sorry |
| 19:37 | <annevk42> | I can see how it was confusing :) |
| 19:38 | <annevk42> | and it all kinds of RDF stuff in there, who's going to use that? |
| 19:41 | <benh> | If they define a JSON representation of same, RDF enthusiasts I guess. |
| 19:41 | <annevk42> | JSON? |
| 19:42 | <benh> | annevk42: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Accessibility/JSON_ARIA |
| 19:42 | <annevk42> | and what's this crazy modelling about properties inheriting etc. |
| 19:42 | <annevk42> | geez, it's just a bunch of attributes to provide a low-level access api |
| 19:43 | <annevk42> | benh, oh yeah, I saw that before |
| 19:43 | <benh> | probably so you can specify complex structures to user agents in the same way as the spec specifies simpler ones. |
| 19:43 | <annevk42> | ARIA is already so complex and they're adding yet another layer of abstraction for the fun of it |
| 19:43 | <benh> | it's got a certain conceptual purity |
| 19:43 | <annevk42> | I'm sure that's going to work well |
| 19:44 | <annevk42> | IBM can prolly line up a few consultants a EUR 500 an hour that can implement it in your system harharhar |
| 19:45 | <benh> | an interesting question would be - can the implementation details of the specified complex structures be derived from the implementation details of the specified simple structures. |
| 19:45 | <benh> | if not, then the inheritance would seem to be window-dressing. |
| 19:45 | <benh> | well, for some value of "interesting" |
| 19:45 | <annevk42> | at that point you probably better have some turing-complete thing hooking in the AT but if a) ATs are happy with that and b) anyone is going to bother is another |
| 19:48 | <benh> | I can imagine using it to specify the name of a specialized widget in a page/app that people reuse. |
| 19:49 | <benh> | maybe |
| 19:49 | <benh> | the most immediate use seems to be building calendar roles. |
| 19:49 | <annevk42> | I'd rather we just fix the damn fomr control styling problem |
| 19:49 | <annevk42> | and get people to implement the new form controls |
| 19:50 | <annevk42> | having a somewhat low-level access api can still be useful, but what people are advocating it for are just hacks |
| 19:51 | <annevk42> | the main reason they did ARIA was to work around that problem and lack of updates from Microsoft |
| 19:52 | <annevk42> | (i.e. if that problem was solved it still wouldn't work in IE) |
| 19:53 | <benh> | well, you'd still want stuff like live regions |
| 19:55 | <annevk42> | live regions is a gap in HTML |
| 19:55 | <annevk42> | indeed |
| 19:56 | <annevk42> | a lot of ARIA is just gaps in HTML4. the problem is that the solution they designed to this problem was only solving it for the AT case and not for everyone (per the above constraints) |
| 19:57 | <annevk42> | HTML5 is part of the everyone approach, but we still haven't dealt with styling (pretty back track record) |
| 19:57 | <annevk42> | s/back/bad/ |
| 19:59 | benh | doubts styling is going to be dealt with for years. |
| 20:00 | <benh> | enough to satisfy people using SVG/Canvas/images |
| 20:00 | <benh> | perhaps never. |
| 20:03 | <annevk42> | WebKit has a pretty decent appearance implementation |
| 20:04 | <annevk42> | you can turn of default form control rendering completely with that |
| 20:04 | <annevk42> | s/of/off/ |
| 20:04 | <annevk42> | now if only it was defined a bit more clearly others could copy that |
| 20:05 | <annevk42> | we'd still need XBL for the more advanced controls of course |
| 20:05 | <benh> | indeed |
| 20:07 | <annevk42> | anyway, a solution to this problem doesn't seem that improbable |
| 21:15 | <annevk42> | Hixie "character (') U+0022 QUOTATION MARK character (")" misses an "or an" before U+0022 |
| 21:16 | <annevk42> | Hixie, "critiera" |
| 21:35 | <jgraham> | Why does he aria implementation guide thing say that it is going to become a note. It seems like the most crucial part of the whole enterprise |
| 21:40 | <jgraham> | " |
| 21:40 | <jgraham> | For the core accessibility API properties of role, name, states, value, etc. there is typically only one of each of them. If there is a conflict, ARIA always wins, because ARIA is essentially an override. In other words, if the native markup says there a link, but the ARIA markup says it is a button, then it should be exposed as a button." |
| 21:40 | <Hixie> | annevk42: e-mail please :-) |
| 21:40 | <Hixie> | annevk42: or a bug |
| 21:58 | gsnedders | doesn't know what to write in a covering letter |
| 21:58 | gsnedders | sighs |
| 22:04 | <annevk42> | Hixie, haven't had a reply yet to the last one, but ok |
| 22:05 | <Hixie> | can you only send one e-mail at once? :-) |
| 22:05 | <Hixie> | i can't track IRC comments. if you comment on IRC, it'll be lost. |
| 22:06 | gsnedders | thinks we need an IRC -> email bot |
| 22:06 | <Hixie> | be my guest :-) |
| 22:06 | <gsnedders> | I'm trying to apply for an internship whose deadline is April 1st! |
| 22:07 | <Hixie> | i don't necessarily mean right now :-) |
| 22:07 | gsnedders | still doesn't know what to write in a covering letter |
| 22:07 | <gsnedders> | "Hi, I rule, hire me, kthxbai." |
| 22:07 | <olliej> | gsnedders: why wouldn't that work? :D |
| 22:08 | gsnedders | just shakes head |
| 22:08 | gsnedders | wonders how old olliej is anyway |
| 22:09 | <Dashiva> | Just write that you invented Forth |
| 22:11 | <gsnedders> | I live near the Forth, but I failed to invent it. |
| 22:11 | <annevk42> | just write you fancy the Web, browsers and Web standard games, have some experience with testing and would like to learn more |
| 22:12 | gsnedders | copies that |
| 22:13 | <gsnedders> | "Send us your CV and cover letter and indicate the preferred dates for your internship. |
| 22:13 | <gsnedders> | Please specify technical skills, relevant experience and what type of technical challenges you look for." |
| 22:15 | <annevk42> | sounds about right; admittedly I never applied for a proper job nor do I have a CV |
| 22:15 | <gsnedders> | heh |
| 22:15 | gsnedders | puts on some takkaria music |
| 22:18 | <gsnedders> | I guess I'll have to address the point of, "Enrollment in a 3-5 year university program, or completing such a program in 2009." |
| 22:39 | <annevk42> | gsnedders, why does your name need to be part of the address? |
| 22:39 | <gsnedders> | annevk42: Because that's what hCard says so, because that's what vCard says :P |
| 22:40 | <gsnedders> | s/so// |
| 22:40 | <annevk42> | it looks broken |
| 22:43 | <gsnedders> | How do you finish a covering letter? |
| 23:04 | <gsnedders> | So, I click the button and then it gets stuck "Contacting 'www.opera.com'" |
| 23:04 | <gsnedders> | Service Temporarily Unavailable |
| 23:04 | <gsnedders> | The server is temporarily unable to service your request due to maintenance downtime or capacity problems. Please try again later. |
| 23:04 | <gsnedders> | Additionally, a 503 Service Temporarily Unavailable error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request. |
| 23:04 | <gsnedders> | Oh fun |
| 23:05 | <Hixie> | if we did want to do a review process for the whatwg, i guess we could use a google calendar to suggest areas to review each week |
| 23:07 | <gsnedders> | Hmmm… |
| 23:07 | <gsnedders> | This rules. I'm going to miss the application deadline because the form doesn't work :P |
| 23:09 | <Hixie> | is there no e-mail alternative? |
| 23:09 | <gsnedders> | Nope |
| 23:19 | <annevk42> | oh that sucks |
| 23:23 | gsnedders | has it come back to life |
| 23:23 | gsnedders | reads RFC 5514 |
| 23:28 | <jcranmer> | gsnedders: seesh, you're so slow |
| 23:28 | <jcranmer> | you're only reading it now? |
| 23:40 | <Hixie> | annevk42, hsivonen: looks like what you said about aria conflicts with aria |
| 23:40 | <Hixie> | specifically, the wai-aria doc says that a host language must support all roles on all elements |
| 23:43 | <Hixie> | abarth rocks http://www.w3.org/mid/7789133a0904010118g437592e0vb61b67e2dd18feb2⊙mgc |
| 23:59 | <gsnedders> | jcranmer: Yeah :( |