| 00:25 | <gsnedders> | ergh. I just realized I left jacket on the bus from the airport. |
| 00:25 | <Midler> | less funny |
| 00:25 | <Midler> | try to call the buscompany |
| 00:26 | <gsnedders> | Between 8 and 23 |
| 00:26 | gsnedders | tries the email option :P |
| 00:27 | <eighty4> | not like you'll need it this week :D |
| 00:27 | <gsnedders> | Indeed. |
| 00:27 | <gsnedders> | But the hoodie would be nice as a pillow :p |
| 00:27 | <eighty4> | 28-29* all week |
| 00:27 | eighty4 | goes *wheee* |
| 00:27 | <Midler> | yea, for once its hot WEEEE |
| 00:27 | <Midler> | =D |
| 00:27 | <eighty4> | you don't have a pillow? |
| 00:27 | <gsnedders> | No |
| 00:27 | <gsnedders> | I only have bed linen at all because I asked James for some yesterday :P |
| 00:28 | <Midler> | eighty4: he has some hair as ive understood it |
| 00:28 | <eighty4> | Midler: and I have to work like crazy all week |
| 00:28 | <eighty4> | gsnedders: you need ikea |
| 00:28 | <gsnedders> | :P |
| 00:28 | <gsnedders> | I think everything else I need is supermarket stuff |
| 00:28 | <eighty4> | ever been to ikea? |
| 00:28 | <gsnedders> | I'll think of more and more stuff tomorrow morning |
| 00:28 | <gsnedders> | Yes |
| 00:28 | <eighty4> | they have everything :) |
| 00:29 | <gsnedders> | eighty4: Really everything in Sweden? :P |
| 00:29 | <eighty4> | everything you need at least |
| 00:29 | <eighty4> | and if you get hungry they have hotdogs for 5kr |
| 00:29 | <gsnedders> | Power for laundry? |
| 00:29 | <gsnedders> | :P |
| 00:30 | <eighty4> | no, but you don't need that. Not really |
| 07:45 | <Hixie> | jesus christ, took an hour and a half for comcast to solve my problem |
| 07:45 | <Hixie> | including them asking for my MAC address _twice_ despite the support call being an IM session WITH A CHAT LOG |
| 08:01 | <eighty4> | :) |
| 08:01 | <eighty4> | Not surprising |
| 08:11 | <Hixie> | not surprising, but still tiresome :-) |
| 08:13 | gsnedders | waves tiredly |
| 08:17 | gsnedders | would head out and wonder, but thinks it is too likely he'll get lost |
| 08:20 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: yt? |
| 08:45 | gsnedders | could do with some breakfast… |
| 08:45 | gsnedders | is somewhat limited by the emptiness of this flat |
| 10:19 | <cyclist> | what's the status on HTML comment tags? |
| 10:20 | <cyclist> | For example, in a page i was recently it had: |
| 10:20 | <cyclist> | <!-- comment > text <a href=...> |
| 10:20 | <cyclist> | And althought the comment wasn't properly closed with a "-->", the text appeared |
| 12:20 | <annevk2> | http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HowToWriteASpec is nice; hopefully someone will use it :) |
| 12:41 | <Philip`> | http://itpastorn.blogspot.com/2009/06/validation-and-doctype-myths-and.html - <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "null" "null"> - oops |
| 12:46 | <annevk2> | ouch, that page argues for using window.open rather than target=_blank |
| 17:06 | <takkaria> | wow |
| 17:06 | <takkaria> | "Ian, I don't think that it is fair to imply or assert that longdesc and |
| 17:06 | <takkaria> | summary |
| 17:06 | <takkaria> | do not work in practice." |
| 17:06 | <takkaria> | (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Jun/0767.html) |
| 17:06 | <takkaria> | I'm not quite sure who it would be unfair to to assert that longdesc doesn't work in practice |
| 17:20 | <webben> | takkaria: I guess the argument is: UA vendors are consulted on whether features work. In the case of accessibility features, AT vendors are a key class of UA vendors who should be consulted. |
| 17:20 | <webben> | (it somewhat sidesteps the problematic nature of actually consulting AT vendors) |
| 17:21 | <webben> | takkaria: The point about many "bad" summary values not being presented to the user in practice could be taken as an example of the benefits of such consultation. |
| 17:22 | <takkaria> | I was more heading at the longdesc bit |
| 17:22 | <takkaria> | I mean, there is no data anywhere that supports the idea that longdesc is a useful part of the web platform |
| 17:22 | <webben> | The same may be true of longdesc; the longdesc lottery article didn't (IIRC) test or consult as to what longdesc values are or aren't presented to users. |
| 17:23 | <Wolfman2000> | Morning/afternoon. Is there some way to make this page split into smaller sections? Firefox lags in general when this page is opened. http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/ |
| 17:23 | <webben> | (There may be additional problems with the longdesc/summary values /actually/ presented to users, of course.) |
| 17:23 | <takkaria> | Wolfman2000: add multipage/ on the end of the url |
| 17:23 | <Philip`> | Wolfman2000: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/ |
| 17:23 | <takkaria> | indeed not, but I did some of the original research for that article, and I really don't know how you can conclude that longdesc works in practice |
| 17:23 | <Wolfman2000> | That works. Thanks. |
| 17:25 | <takkaria> | you can't just go around saying "I don't think it's fair to assert that x" when everything speaks for that assertion and nothing against it |
| 17:26 | <Wolfman2000> | Hmm...Safari 4 seems to handle the singlepage/ fine |
| 17:26 | webben | has never really bought into the evidence brought to bear in that article, but there we go. |
| 17:28 | <takkaria> | I'm just annoyed at people casting aspersions without giving good reasons for casting them |
| 17:29 | <webben> | I think the comment should have acknowledged that AT vendors are at liberty to join the discussion; and that some AT vendors are already present in the discussion. |
| 17:30 | <takkaria> | I think there's also a big difference here between adding new features and evaluating existing features |
| 17:30 | <takkaria> | if we introduce new a11n features, AT vendors should be consulted |
| 17:30 | <takkaria> | but longdesc/summary are about seeing if an existing experiment has given good results or not |
| 17:31 | <webben> | I don't think there's any difference really. |
| 17:31 | <webben> | As we can see from summary, consultation can change one's interpretation of existing features. |
| 17:33 | <takkaria> | Murray's argument just seem to be suggesting to me that the AT people should say what a11n features we should have, and that's that |
| 17:35 | <webben> | takkaria: I'm not sure that is what Murray is arguing. |
| 17:35 | <takkaria> | maybe I'm wilfully misinterpreting given my own biases :) |
| 17:36 | <webben> | takkaria: Seems to me his argument is: if browser vendors are the ultimate arbiters of features, then why are AT arbiters not the ultimate arbiters of a11y features. |
| 17:36 | <webben> | (earlier in the email he rejects the idea that browser vendors can be trusted to get things right for their users) |
| 17:36 | <takkaria> | well, they are |
| 17:37 | <takkaria> | but the AT vendors tend to refuse to take part in the HTMLWG, so there's not much can be done about that... |
| 17:37 | <webben> | some AT vendors. |
| 17:37 | <webben> | there are certainly options for external consultation |
| 17:38 | <webben> | particularly with opensource projects like NVDA and Orca. |
| 17:39 | <webben> | And to some extent that's happening, if perhaps only rather indirectly - I know e.g. jgraham has been chatting with Marco Zehe (Mozilla a11y, ex-Freedom Scientific guy) in here. |
| 17:40 | <takkaria> | mm |
| 17:40 | <takkaria> | I'm just not sure we need AT people to be there to see that longdesc has failed on the web |
| 17:42 | <webben> | Personally, I find the idea of putting a11y features into a box and putting it at the feet of AT vendors as problematic as it would be to exclude the later from discussions of supposedly non-a11y features. |
| 17:42 | <webben> | there's a lot of accessibility that has little to do with AT. |
| 17:42 | <webben> | but is provided by authoring practice or ordinary browser features. |
| 17:43 | <webben> | I think the argument about the utility of "summary" to sighted users (however we choose to judge on that issue) touches directly on that. |
| 17:44 | <Dashiva> | webben: It also reinforces the view of accessibility as a bolt-on thing |
| 17:45 | <webben> | Dashiva: well the idea of "a11y feature" is itself the idea of a bolt-on thing. |
| 17:46 | <webben> | I don't think the notion "a11y features" might be the province of AT vendors adds much bolt-on-ed-ness. |
| 17:47 | <Dashiva> | The idea itself is author bolt-on, but leaving it to AT makes it a vendor bolt-on too. |
| 17:47 | <webben> | I see what you mean. |
| 17:48 | <Dashiva> | Thinking mainly of ARIA, but there might be other cases |
| 17:49 | <webben> | ARIA, whatever its merits, is indeed an example of AT- rather than accessibility-driven design. But then it was basically conceived as a bolt-on to Dojo widgets so that's not surprising. |
| 23:09 | <sayrer> | huh, I see that inputmode was removed |
| 23:10 | <sayrer> | in favor of -waf-format-mode or some such |
| 23:10 | <sayrer> | is there an HTML5 way to do predictOn/predictOff ? |
| 23:18 | <Philip`> | http://thevideobay.org/ - "TVB aims to use the new HTML5 features, more specificly the <video> and <audio> tags with the ogg/theora video and audio formats" |
| 23:30 | <annevk2> | sayrer, it wasn't removed in favor of anything |
| 23:31 | <annevk2> | sayrer, iirc it was removed because the sole reason we had it was because of XForms |
| 23:33 | <sayrer> | annevk2: the checkin comment says something else |
| 23:34 | <sayrer> | http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/commit-watchers-whatwg.org/2008/001395.html |
| 23:35 | <sayrer> | I found that the carrington mobile wordpress theme uses it |
| 23:36 | <annevk2> | oh, interesting |
| 23:36 | <sayrer> | looks like webkit supports it |
| 23:36 | <sayrer> | or maybe only android? |
| 23:36 | <sayrer> | hmm |
| 23:37 | <sayrer> | I guess I should try predictOff |
| 23:41 | <sayrer> | don't see any resolved webkit bugs for it |
| 23:41 | <sayrer> | but it is in XHTML Basic |
| 23:42 | <Midler> | Philip`: ofcourse |
| 23:42 | <sayrer> | maybe I should ask alex king why he put it in there |
| 23:47 | <sayrer> | ah, looks like they added it to satisfy the mobileOk validator |
| 23:47 | <sayrer> | wonder if any real handsets pay attention to it |