| 00:53 | <Hixie> | it's so hot here that my macbook pro's right-hand-side usb port doesn't provide enough power to power my keyboard |
| 00:53 | <Hixie> | i don't even know how that makes sense |
| 00:55 | <gsnedders> | So if you put a fan next to it it works? |
| 00:56 | <Hixie> | dunno |
| 00:56 | <Hixie> | but the port was working fine earlier before it was so hot |
| 00:56 | <gsnedders> | Are you sure it's not just coincidence? |
| 00:57 | <Hixie> | the heat has also caused my cats to crash, one of the thinks the wall is the floor and is sleeping with his four feet against the wall |
| 00:57 | <Hixie> | it's very cute |
| 00:57 | <gsnedders> | My father had EyeTV stop working after upgrading to a new version. It turned out, after a week or two, that a cable had fallen out. |
| 00:57 | <Hixie> | i expect what's going on is that the heat has caused some wire to not connect properly |
| 00:57 | <Hixie> | something similar is going on on my mac mini |
| 00:58 | <Hixie> | on hot days, one of my drobos disconnects |
| 00:58 | <gsnedders> | Why would the heat cause that? Surely it should cause it to expand? But if the case expands and takes the two things further apart than the metal expands… |
| 00:58 | <Hixie> | (doesn't appear to be anything wrong with the drobo, but it could be that too of course) |
| 00:58 | <gsnedders> | Yeah, I guess I can make some sense out of it |
| 00:58 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: different metals can expand in different ways |
| 00:58 | <Hixie> | look up how an old-style thermostat works :-) |
| 00:58 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Hey, this is cem. I don't claim to know anything :P |
| 00:59 | gsnedders | hasn't done chem. in his last four years of school |
| 00:59 | <gsnedders> | (I somewhat regret that, but by the time I regretting not taking it, it was too late) |
| 01:00 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Also, we have a old-style thermostat at home :P |
| 01:01 | <Hixie> | well then |
| 01:01 | gsnedders | ought to sleep seeming it is 2am |
| 03:08 | <Hixie> | http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/help-whatwg.org/2009-June/000258.html ...? |
| 05:10 | <Hixie> | anyone got any short but compelling examples for me to put in the <div> section? |
| 05:10 | <Hixie> | showing how it's not a sectioning element... and not showing something that can be done any other way |
| 09:37 | <Hixie> | can anyone think of a variable-size encoding that is a superset of ASCII and that has 0x3C as the second character of a two- (or more) byte sequence? |
| 09:38 | <Hixie> | (Shift_JIS doesn't ever use 0x3C in the second byte apparently) |
| 10:11 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: yt? |
| 10:11 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: yep |
| 10:25 | <Hixie> | ok _one_ of these modes in 2022 has to be able to have a byte sequence that contains a 3C without that being a "<" somehow |
| 10:27 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: need somebody like Junshik Shin |
| 10:27 | <MikeSmith> | encodings guru |
| 10:29 | MikeSmith | remembers he meant to file a bug about definition of "sectioning content" |
| 10:30 | <annevk2> | Hixie, why in 2022? I'd hope we have less encodings by then, or at least the same amount as now |
| 10:31 | <svl> | annevk2: ISO-2022-x |
| 10:31 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: i was talking to smontagu about this earlier |
| 10:32 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: well, if he doesn't know either, it's time to worry |
| 10:48 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: yt? |
| 10:49 | gsnedders | feels weak. |
| 10:49 | <gsnedders> | I can't open a jam jar :( |
| 10:53 | <eighty4> | use a knife to "pop" it |
| 10:55 | <gsnedders> | eighty4: The jam jar is stronger than the knife |
| 10:55 | <takkaria> | you've tried using a towel for extra grip? |
| 10:56 | <gsnedders> | takkaria: yeah |
| 10:56 | <Hixie> | you've tried using hot and cold water to expand the top and shrink the glass? |
| 10:56 | <eighty4> | hot water? |
| 10:56 | <eighty4> | :) |
| 10:56 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: yes |
| 10:56 | <Hixie> | are you sure it's actually openable? |
| 10:56 | <eighty4> | yeah it is |
| 10:57 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: No, but I'd hope it is so I can eat it :P |
| 10:57 | <eighty4> | I've managed with the same kind. It's just crazy hard .) |
| 10:57 | <Hixie> | have you tried stabbing the top with something sharp to equalise the pressure? |
| 10:57 | <gsnedders> | (seriously though, it's a normal jam jar) |
| 10:57 | <Hixie> | (of course you'll have to finish all today if you do that) |
| 10:57 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: I don't really have anything sharp enough, and I wouldn't finish it that quickly. |
| 10:57 | <Hixie> | i recommend sticking it in the freezer for a bit and trying the hot water trick again |
| 10:58 | <eighty4> | does cold water actually shrink the glass? |
| 10:58 | gsnedders | notices he's broken his nail trying to open this :P |
| 10:59 | <eighty4> | I've never used that. Only hot water and it's worked before. Hot water will expand the tiny amount of air inside... |
| 10:59 | <takkaria> | gsnedders: well, if you pierce the top, you can clingfilm it afterward |
| 11:00 | <gsnedders> | takkaria: I need clingfilm for that |
| 11:00 | <Hixie> | eighty4: hot water on its own works because it expands the glass and the top at different rates |
| 11:01 | <Hixie> | eighty4: i don't think it affects the pressure inside any measurable amount |
| 11:01 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I'm here briefly |
| 11:01 | <Hixie> | eighty4: cold water on one part and hot on the other just makes the size change more drastic |
| 11:01 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: no worries, i figured it out |
| 11:02 | <eighty4> | Hixie: Sounds reasonable |
| 11:02 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: basically i was going to ask what you wanted to do about charset sniffing with encodings that are ascii supersets but have "modes" where they become multibyte and then can have ascii-like bytes that aren't ascii |
| 11:02 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: The hot is on the metal lid, right? |
| 11:03 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: but i convinced myself that it's not possible to make a real polyglot doc that is valid in two different encodings with different <meta charset>s applying |
| 11:04 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: generally, yeah, unless you have a weird situation where the problem is that the glass is pulling on the lid somehow keeping it shut |
| 11:04 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: which is possible i guess |
| 11:04 | gsnedders | normally goes for the get-father-to-open-it solution |
| 11:05 | <Hixie> | i used to use the get-sister-to-open-it solution for shrinkwraped products |
| 11:05 | <Hixie> | that stopped working when i left the country too |
| 11:06 | <eighty4> | that proves that one shouldn't leave the country :) |
| 11:06 | <gsnedders> | I guess the right solution is to not leave the country. |
| 11:07 | <Hixie> | eighty4: i later left the continent too :-P |
| 11:08 | <Hixie> | Philip`: please checkin r3331 and try to come up with some encoding combination in which that's possible |
| 11:08 | <Hixie> | Philip`: er, please see checkin r3331 and..., rather |
| 11:09 | gsnedders | still can't open it |
| 11:10 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: You are quite lame |
| 11:10 | <Hixie> | send it home |
| 11:11 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: certainly |
| 11:11 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: You have seriously tried running the top under hot water for a minute and then using a towel to get a reasonable amount of grip? |
| 11:11 | <jgraham> | And it didn't work? |
| 11:12 | <gsnedders> | w00t! |
| 11:12 | <annevk2> | svl, hehe, confusing that it happens to collide with a certain year |
| 11:12 | <gsnedders> | Finally, after combining it with the freezer, it works |
| 11:16 | <eighty4> | :) |
| 11:16 | <eighty4> | nice |
| 11:21 | <MikeSmith> | gsnedders: making a reputation for yourself |
| 11:21 | <MikeSmith> | "the guy who's such a wussy, he can't even open a jam jar" |
| 11:21 | <Philip`> | Hixie: I don't understand what "a superset of US-ASCII ... ignoring cases where those bytes would be part of multibyte sequences" actually means |
| 11:22 | <Hixie> | not sure how else to phrase it |
| 11:22 | <Hixie> | i mean like 8859-1 and Shift_JIS |
| 11:22 | <Hixie> | but not GSM 03.38 or EBCDIC |
| 11:26 | <Philip`> | I'd probably be happier if it said something like "bytes in the set ..., ignoring cases where they are not the first byte of a multibyte sequence, decode into the same character as in US-ASCII" or something like that |
| 11:26 | <Philip`> | unless it's meant to be about encoding rather than decoding |
| 11:32 | <Hixie> | Philip`: is the new text better? (regenning now, give it 10 seconds or so) |
| 11:36 | jgraham | laments how hard it is to get computed style of HTML elements |
| 11:37 | <jgraham> | (outside of a browser environment) |
| 11:40 | <MikeSmith> | god help those who need to reproduce/match browser handling of standards outside of an actual browser |
| 11:51 | <Philip`> | Hixie: Oh, it's the whole "superset ..." thing that I don't understand |
| 11:51 | <Hixie> | ah |
| 11:51 | <MikeSmith> | are there any attributes whose values aren't PCDATA? e.g., any that if you put a character reference into their value, it will be handled as a literal string, instead of being dereferenced? |
| 11:52 | <takkaria> | no |
| 11:52 | <MikeSmith> | OK |
| 11:53 | <Hixie> | yes |
| 11:53 | <Hixie> | well |
| 11:53 | <Hixie> | no |
| 11:53 | <Hixie> | but there's an attribute where entities aren't allowed |
| 11:53 | <Hixie> | two, actually |
| 11:53 | <Hixie> | <meta charset> and in certain equivalent cases <meta content> |
| 11:54 | <Hixie> | and they cause trouble if used there |
| 11:54 | <MikeSmith> | OK |
| 11:54 | MikeSmith | goes to re-read parsing algorithm |
| 11:56 | <Philip`> | (Argh, lost connection) |
| 11:56 | <Philip`> | Hixie: e.g.: Does it mean 0x3C (followed by any other byte sequence, not preceded by a partial multibyte sequence) must decode to U+003C? Or U+003C must always be encoded to 0x3C? |
| 11:56 | <Hixie> | is there any encoding where that distinction is relevant? |
| 11:56 | <Philip`> | (If you could encode U+003C into two different sequences, one of which was 0x3C, surely that would still be a superset) |
| 11:59 | <Hixie> | i rephrased it again, is it better now? (let me know if you're on your pennies-per-byte connection and i'll paste it in here) |
| 11:59 | <Philip`> | http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2003/10/17/UTF8-plus - UTF-8+names probably lets you encode U+003C as 0x26 0x6C 0x74 0x3B as well as as 0x3C |
| 12:00 | <Philip`> | It's pennies-per-megabyte, which isn't quite so bad, but I am on it anyway :-( |
| 12:01 | gsnedders | wonders where laundry is in this building |
| 12:02 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: I would guess that it's either dumped on your floor, or in a bag |
| 12:02 | <gsnedders> | s/laundry/washing machines/ |
| 12:02 | <gsnedders> | s/is/are/ |
| 12:03 | <Philip`> | Ah |
| 12:10 | <Philip`> | MikeSmith: There's doctypes too, where the things that look quoted attribute strings can't contain entities |
| 12:10 | <MikeSmith> | OK |
| 12:14 | <Philip`> | Hixie: If I had an error-correcting version of UTF16-BE, which mapped the one-byte string 0x3C (and similarly the two-byte string 0x3C 0x00) onto U+003C, would that be ASCII-compatible? |
| 12:22 | <MikeSmith> | so if I wanted to try to have a term that unambiguously describes the contents of <script> and <style> elements, would "unparsed character data" be inaccurate? |
| 12:24 | <Hixie> | Philip`: i... guess? |
| 12:24 | <Hixie> | Philip`: how would it know that 0x3C was an error though? |
| 12:34 | <Philip`> | Hixie: Because it would reach the end of the file/string and flush all unfinished characters |
| 12:43 | <Philip`> | Hixie: "a document that is valid as two different encodings at once, with different <meta charset> elements applying in each case" - depending on what's meant by "valid", how about <meta charset="utf-8 +names"> ? |
| 12:44 | <Philip`> | which has charset equivalent to utf-8 if you decode as utf-8, and equivalent to utf-8+names if you decode as utf-8+names |
| 12:44 | <MikeSmith> | hendry: thanks for dwm+dmenu tip. I'll give it a try |
| 12:44 | <Philip`> | (based on http://www.tbray.org/tag/utf-8+names.html) |
| 12:56 | <Philip`> | I suppose what's really needed is that if a document saying <meta charset="X"> is encoded as X and then decoded as ASCII, it will still be seen to say <meta charset="X">, so the requirement is that U+003C etc must *encode* to 0x3C, and nothing else must encode to any sequence containing 0x3C etc |
| 12:57 | <Philip`> | s/\*encode\*/always encode/ |
| 13:25 | gsnedders | is trying to get hoodie and jacket back from the bus he left it on :( |
| 13:28 | gsnedders | has been told to ring another number |
| 14:16 | <gsnedders> | Oh yay. |
| 14:16 | <gsnedders> | Ringing that number I just got told to ring the number I got told to call originally. |
| 14:36 | <Phae> | annoying newb question: is @profile still non-html5? |
| 14:36 | <gsnedders> | Yes |
| 14:37 | <Phae> | hokeykokey. just checking. |
| 16:49 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: I have a problem with returning clean bed sheets tomorrow: I can't find washing machine. |
| 17:05 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Don't worry, we can wash them. |
| 17:05 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Did you get your jacket back? |
| 17:05 | gsnedders | does need to find the washing machine though |
| 17:05 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: no :( |
| 17:09 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Have you looked in the basement for the washing machine? |
| 17:09 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: If there is a basement, how do I get there? :P |
| 17:10 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Down some stairs? |
| 17:10 | gsnedders | was actually expecting that answer |
| 17:10 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: I can't find any such stairs. |
| 17:11 | <eighty4> | gsnedders: a friend of mine lives in a similar building. I'll ask him when he gets home. |
| 17:11 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: There may not be a basement. It's just that in the small sample of all Swedish apartments I have lived in a) there is a basement and b) the washing machine is in the basement |
| 17:11 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: thx |
| 17:12 | <eighty4> | jgraham: I think it's true for more then 90% of all swedish houses. |
| 17:15 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Is there anything I should bring to work with me tomorrow? |
| 17:15 | <gsnedders> | (Apart from your bed sheets) |
| 17:15 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: I would come fully clothed. |
| 17:15 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: OK, apart from the normal social requirements to go outside. |
| 17:16 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: More seriously I guess your passport will help with the tax stuff |
| 17:16 | <jgraham> | You shouldn't really need anything for work |
| 17:18 | <Midler> | jgraham: ususally, i believe the washing machine is inside the toilette room |
| 17:18 | <Midler> | It uses to be it..mostly |
| 17:19 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Do you have a plan for lunch? Some core people go out regularly (at about 11:30am (!)) so you can join them or you can bring your own stuff |
| 17:19 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: I have no plan. |
| 17:19 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: My plan for tomorrow is about as detailed as go to work some time after 9 and before 10, and to go home sometime. |
| 17:19 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: If you have no food we can go for lunch and you will get to meet some new people |
| 17:19 | <jgraham> | Which is good |
| 17:20 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: I don't have anything to bring food in, more seriously. |
| 17:20 | <eighty4> | Midler: not in rental apartments |
| 17:20 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: OK |
| 17:20 | <Midler> | =/ |
| 17:20 | gsnedders | notes eighty4 has the advantage of actually having been in my flat :P |
| 17:20 | <eighty4> | at least not the smaller once |
| 17:21 | <Midler> | eighty4: well, thats true |
| 17:21 | <eighty4> | gsnedders: true :) |
| 17:22 | <eighty4> | jgraham: isn't 11.30 a regular lunch time? or was the ! for something else? |
| 17:22 | <gsnedders> | eighty4: For anyone from GB that's absurdly early. |
| 17:22 | <eighty4> | gsnedders: really? I start to get hungry around 11 :) |
| 17:23 | <gsnedders> | eighty4: In Britain we normally start to think about having breakfast at 8, if at all. Then lunch at 12 or 1. |
| 17:23 | <eighty4> | but I eat breakfast around 07 and have 1-2 cups of coffe |
| 17:23 | <jgraham> | eighty4: That is 1-1.5 hours earlier than I would usually eat lunch |
| 17:23 | <eighty4> | gsnedders: that's just crazy |
| 17:24 | <jgraham> | (but then I don't start the day as early as a typical Swede) |
| 17:24 | <Midler> | well...there is a reason we say "eftermiddag" when we mean after 12 a clock |
| 17:24 | <eighty4> | everyone know that breakfast is the most important meal |
| 17:24 | <eighty4> | and lunch is almost as important |
| 17:24 | jgraham | always has breakfast |
| 17:24 | gsnedders | never had breakfast while at school, more or less :P |
| 17:25 | <Midler> | Hard translated eftermiddag would mean after dinner |
| 17:25 | <eighty4> | gsnedders: that's no good. You learn better when you've eaten |
| 17:25 | <eighty4> | Midler: no, actually not |
| 17:25 | <Midler> | but it means afternoon in english |
| 17:25 | <eighty4> | it would mean after mid day |
| 17:25 | <gsnedders> | In England, "afternoon" normally means after lunch. |
| 17:25 | <eighty4> | or at least that's what I've learnt :) |
| 17:26 | <Midler> | hmm, and i always thought it meant after dinner =( |
| 17:26 | <gsnedders> | (In Scotland, it normally means after 12:00) |
| 17:26 | <eighty4> | Midler: your translation of it is better then mine :) |
| 17:26 | <eighty4> | lets go with yours |
| 17:26 | <eighty4> | and what's up with everyone being in sweden in here? |
| 17:26 | <Midler> | Sweden rocks? |
| 17:26 | <Midler> | :P |
| 17:26 | eighty4 | votes for transforming this into a swedish channel |
| 17:27 | <gsnedders> | eighty4: This is a WHATWG channel, browser guys are here, and Opera has an office in Sweden? |
| 17:27 | <Midler> | eighty4: well, for once its really hot in sweden |
| 17:27 | <gsnedders> | s/,/,hence / |
| 17:28 | <eighty4> | gsnedders: doesn't Opera have offices in other countries as well? |
| 17:28 | <gsnedders> | eighty4: Transforming it into a Swedish channel probably wouldn't work seeming half of us in Sweden in this channel don't speak Swedish |
| 17:28 | <eighty4> | Midler: and I have to stay inside, it's around 30* in here... |
| 17:28 | <gsnedders> | eighty4: Yeah, sure. But core is mainly in Oslo and Linköping |
| 17:28 | <eighty4> | didn't know :) |
| 17:29 | <gsnedders> | (I think) |
| 17:29 | <eighty4> | so Linköping actually have something |
| 17:29 | <Midler> | opera is a norweigan company as far as i know |
| 17:29 | <gsnedders> | Midler: Yeah |
| 17:29 | <eighty4> | yeah, that's what I've learnt as well |
| 17:29 | <Midler> | But its not strange having an office in sweden, not atleast near linköping |
| 17:29 | <Midler> | as its near a university |
| 17:29 | <gsnedders> | Midler: Just by the railway station in the centre of Linköping :P |
| 17:30 | <Midler> | Iam not familiar with linköping |
| 17:30 | gsnedders | got here on Friday evening :P |
| 17:31 | <Midler> | gsnedders: Have you bought anything in a store yet? |
| 17:31 | <gsnedders> | Midler: yes |
| 17:31 | <Midler> | Because in norway, you would need to multiply the price by 2 or 3 |
| 17:31 | <Midler> | Than in sweden |
| 17:31 | gsnedders | doesn't really care about Norway :P |
| 17:31 | Midler | likes the mountains view in norway |
| 17:31 | <Midler> | But ive only been there once |
| 17:32 | <Midler> | When i was little |
| 17:32 | <Midler> | and it was not that fun to spend 3weeks of my weekly pocket money |
| 17:32 | <Midler> | :P |
| 17:33 | gsnedders | has never been to Norway |
| 17:35 | <eighty4> | gsnedders: I would put my money on a "classic" swedish basement |
| 17:35 | <eighty4> | you should be able to use your key to get into it |
| 17:35 | <gsnedders> | Yes, I know there is a key for it. |
| 17:35 | <gsnedders> | I don't know where it is though :P |
| 17:35 | <eighty4> | the washer might now be in the same "house" |
| 17:36 | <eighty4> | Midler: Oslo is nice |
| 17:36 | <eighty4> | but it's way more expansive |
| 17:37 | <Midler> | eighty4: as ive say. Ive only been in norway once |
| 17:37 | <Dashiva> | There are so many Swedes working in Norway you might almost think it's in Sweden :P |
| 17:37 | <Midler> | When i was a child |
| 17:37 | <Midler> | The only thing i apreciated was the view |
| 17:37 | <Midler> | However, being a child |
| 17:37 | <Midler> | Norway was really booring |
| 17:37 | <Midler> | It was a sunday |
| 17:37 | <Midler> | and nothing was open |
| 17:38 | <Midler> | And smal thing such icecream ruined me =( |
| 17:38 | <eighty4> | Dashiva: it _was_ sweden once |
| 17:38 | <Midler> | But i guess norway is fine yes |
| 17:38 | <Midler> | eighty4: yeah, decades ago... |
| 17:39 | <Dashiva> | Sweden was just a rebound after getting out of that abuse relationship with Denmark |
| 17:44 | <eighty4> | Midler: yeah yeah :) |
| 17:50 | <Philip`> | Hixie: \x1B$@<meta/\x1B(B charset=utf-8 x="<meta charset=iso-2022-jp>"> |
| 17:50 | <Philip`> | (where "\x1B" is the byte 0x1B) |
| 17:52 | <Philip`> | Decoding as UTF-8 gives charset=utf-8, decoding as ISO-2022-JP gives charset=iso-2022-jp, and ISO-2022-* looks like it would be considered "ASCII compatible" because all the normal characters (everything except 0x1B) are mapped identically to ASCII |
| 17:56 | <Philip`> | The charset johab/cp1361 (http://www.fileformat.info/info/charset/x-Johab/list.htm) might have similar problems, since ß is encoded as 0xDD 0x3C |
| 18:31 | <Philip`> | ISO-2022 is great fun |
| 18:31 | <Philip`> | http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=%E9%B9%BF%E5%A1%A2%E6%AF%80%E8%BB%A2%E9%A6%96%E7%AB%B0%E8%9C%B7%E5%9D%8F%20src=data:text/plain,alert(123)//&ei=UTF-8&eo=iso-2022-jp |
| 18:32 | <Philip`> | View that in a browser that doesn't support iso-2022, or manually switch the encoding to iso-8859-1 |
| 18:32 | <Philip`> | Unfortunately all the browsers I tested do support iso-2022 :-( |
| 18:32 | <eighty4> | "123" |
| 18:32 | <Philip`> | but anyway it's a bit of an XSS hole |
| 18:46 | <hsivonen> | just pushed the HTML5 parser into mozilla-central preffed off. Hoping everything is ok... |
| 19:04 | <Philip`> | http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=%EC%84%9E%E7%87%89%E4%B9%AD%ED%83%91%EC%88%8D%E8%A8%8A%E6%98%B1%E7%A6%BF%E5%88%B7%E5%A5%84%E5%89%94%EA%B5%89%EB%82%91%EC%84%9E%E6%98%8C%E4%BE%84%E5%BE%9E%EC%97%86&ei=UTF-8&eo=iso-2022-kr |
| 19:04 | <Philip`> | View that in Chrome on Windows |
| 19:04 | <Philip`> | and then it runs the script by default |
| 19:05 | <Philip`> | (Chrome 2.0.173.33 in particular) |
| 19:05 | <Philip`> | I hope this counts as a legitimate XSS vulnerability now |
| 19:05 | <Philip`> | only I've got no idea who to report it to |
| 19:05 | <Philip`> | so I'll just complain about it in here instead |
| 19:07 | <Philip`> | Hixie: I guess ISO-2022 should be forbidden/discouraged for the same security reasons as UTF-7 and EBCDIC |
| 19:57 | <Midler> | will it be possible to place for example div tag within video tag? |
| 19:57 | <takkaria> | as fallback for browsers which don't support <video>, yes |
| 19:58 | <Midler> | ok |
| 19:59 | <Midler> | iam just thinking of youtube that has "comments/links" withing the movie. I though of doing the same with div. |
| 20:00 | <Midler> | But its to use layers then |
| 20:00 | <gsnedders> | takkaria: How long did it take you to get to the lake? |
| 20:00 | <Dashiva> | Can you use video with imagemaps? |
| 20:02 | <takkaria> | gsnedders: well, my bike back wheel was flat when I got the canal |
| 20:02 | <takkaria> | so I walked |
| 20:02 | <takkaria> | I have no idea how long it was |
| 20:03 | <gsnedders> | heh |
| 20:03 | <takkaria> | I got back to my bike at 8pm, but I spent a fair bit of time at the lake napping or taking photos on the way |
| 20:04 | gsnedders | ended up more or less falling asleep at 5pm, oddly |
| 20:04 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: It is about 5km from the town centre to the lake |
| 20:05 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: I know taht |
| 20:05 | <jgraham> | Which is just over an hours walk |
| 20:08 | <gsnedders> | I tend to walk slower in the heat though, so probably a bit more than that for me |
| 20:12 | <takkaria> | apparently today I have taken some exceptionally wonky photos |
| 20:12 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: So does everyone I guess |
| 20:13 | <gsnedders> | takkaria: I seem to have done that over the past week too :( |
| 20:13 | jgraham | has lots of photos that he should, or should not, upload |
| 20:13 | <Midler> | If i want to get the state of the video with javascript (example: stopped, playing, paused ect). Where can i find it? |
| 20:13 | <takkaria> | and also lots of pictures which are the pictoral qequivalent of me going "wow! big expanse of flat, uninteresting land" |
| 20:13 | <takkaria> | which at the time I was obviously quite excited by, but I'm not so sure why now |
| 20:14 | <gsnedders> | :) |
| 20:14 | <gsnedders> | It is somewhat impressive quite how big the expanses of flat uninteresting land are though. |
| 20:15 | <Midler> | Iam thinking. If i dont like the custom controls or i want to use my own controls. I could do so with placing divs within the video overlayed. And with javascript activate and change blablabal.. |
| 20:15 | <takkaria> | yeah, hard to capture with a 50mm lens though |
| 20:15 | <takkaria> | Midler: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/video.html#dom-media-paused |
| 20:15 | <gsnedders> | takkaria: You have 350D, right? |
| 20:15 | <takkaria> | gsnedders: aye |
| 20:15 | <Midler> | takkaria: thanks |
| 20:16 | <gsnedders> | takkaria: This is when the 10–22mm comes into use :P |
| 20:16 | <takkaria> | Midler: and the surrounding section |
| 20:16 | <Midler> | mm, i will find |
| 20:16 | <jgraham> | I have lots of photos that are the pictoral equivalent of "I got the wrong camera settings. Again." |
| 20:16 | <Midler> | I just thought of making my own controls |
| 20:16 | takkaria | grins jgraham |
| 20:17 | gsnedders | is tempted to get one of the Sigma fisheyes designed for APS-C sized sensor cameras |
| 20:17 | jgraham | is tempted to get many things but can't afford most of them |
| 20:17 | gsnedders | tends to be too conservative and boring to run into that often |
| 20:18 | <Dashiva> | Sure is deja vu on public-html lately |
| 20:21 | <takkaria> | isn't it always? |
| 20:21 | <Philip`> | It wasn't the first time each issue was discussed |
| 20:22 | <Philip`> | but after the second and third and fourth etc times, it does get a little tedious |
| 20:24 | <tantek> | Perhaps if the issues were captured and resolved on a wiki with permalinks, they could be quickly dismissed with URLs to those permalinks when brought up the second and third and fourth times (or at least new information could be added instead of rehashing). |
| 20:24 | <tantek> | http://microformats.org/wiki/wiki-better-than-email |
| 20:26 | <Dashiva> | I don't think it's lack of knowledge that's the main problem |
| 20:27 | Philip` | thinks the volume of communication (email and IRC and blog posts and blog comments and ...) is high enough that it's unreasonable to expect people to follow it all, and one can't expect them to not repeat earlier discussions unless there's a brief summary they can refer to to see that it's been said before |
| 20:27 | <Dashiva> | More of a "They don't agree with me yet, they must've missed it the previous time, so I'll just say it again until it works" |
| 20:28 | <Dashiva> | (From all sides involved) |
| 20:33 | <Hixie> | Philip`: the key is can you make it valid in both encodings. those examples all have at least one conformance error (e.g. unknown attributes) in at least one of the encodings. |
| 20:33 | <Philip`> | Hixie: So it has to be conforming HTML, not just a valid byte sequence in the given encoding? |
| 20:33 | <Hixie> | right |
| 20:34 | <Hixie> | Philip`: the point is to highlight these issues to authors |
| 20:34 | <Hixie> | Philip`: so if the author gets a conformance error, that's enough |
| 20:34 | <Hixie> | imho |
| 20:35 | <Hixie> | i've made 2022 discouraged like utf-32 and ebcdic |
| 20:35 | <Hixie> | i understand it's actually used quite widely, at least for e-mail and maybe for web |
| 20:36 | <Hixie> | Philip`: i also tweaked the text to make utf8+names not ascii-compatible |
| 20:38 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: btw, you probably don't want your classes and so forth to have the "5" in their name |
| 20:39 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: the nsHtml5 prefix is supposed to go away |
| 20:39 | <Hixie> | k |
| 20:39 | <hsivonen> | so as it happened, I was too much of a newbie with hg to do the landing right and now more experienced people are cleaning up the mess I caused |
| 20:40 | <Hixie> | :-/ |
| 20:40 | <takkaria> | oh, you're landing it on trunk? |
| 20:40 | <takkaria> | cool |
| 20:47 | <Philip`> | Hixie: Is <meta charset="utf-8>+names"> conforming (in both encodings)? |
| 20:48 | <Philip`> | It doesn't have any unrecognised attributes now, unless I'm being stupid |
| 20:49 | <Philip`> | http://philip.html5.org/data/charsets.html#charset-iso-2022-jp - hmm, that seems to be used quite a bit |
| 20:49 | <Hixie> | utf-8+names isn't ascii-compatible |
| 20:49 | <Hixie> | so <meta charset can't be used with it |
| 20:49 | <Hixie> | in a conforming page |
| 20:50 | <Philip`> | I thought the idea was to have an example that justifies the inclusion of that ASCII-compatibility requirement |
| 20:51 | <Philip`> | so it just needs to conform to all other requirements |
| 20:51 | <Hixie> | no the idea is to have an example that justifies changing the encoding sniffer to bail as soon as it hits a byte sequence that might screw things up |
| 20:52 | <Hixie> | or changing the ASCII-compatibility requirements to exclude even ascii bytes in later parts of multibyte sequences |
| 21:01 | <Philip`> | Hixie: Hmm, what about <meta charset=\x0Eutf8>x\x0Fiso2022kr> |
| 21:01 | <Philip`> | which is also <meta charset=朮歷없iso2022kr> |
| 21:02 | <Hixie> | how is that valid in 2022? |
| 21:03 | <Philip`> | 0x0E and 0x0F are escape codes in iso-2022-kr (http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1557) |
| 21:04 | <Philip`> | Oh, I suppose there's the problem that 朮歷없iso2022kr isn't the preferred name for that encoding |
| 21:04 | <Hixie> | right |
| 21:04 | <Hixie> | or any name for it as far as i can tell |
| 21:05 | <Philip`> | I thought anything [^a-zA-Z0-9] gets stripped when comparing names |
| 21:05 | <Hixie> | hm i guess it would compare correctly, yeah |
| 21:05 | <Hixie> | but it's still not valid |
| 21:05 | <gsnedders> | takkaria: http://www.flickr.com/photos/takkaria/3668544285/ — Now I'm not sure it is worth it. |
| 21:05 | <Hixie> | it's also not valid in UTF-8, is it? |
| 21:06 | <Hixie> | U+000E is a parse error |
| 21:06 | <Hixie> | i'm glad you're having as much trouble as i was with this |
| 21:06 | <Hixie> | makes me feel like i'm not a moron :-) |
| 21:06 | <Hixie> | and btw these encodings are insane |
| 21:07 | <takkaria> | gsnedders: I'm guessing it's more fun if you actually get to the lakeside, but I didn't because I wasn't quite sure how far down the road the lakeside was |
| 21:23 | <Philip`> | Hixie: If you want the document to be valid UTF-8 then it can't contain any non-whitespace bytes < 0x20, so it seems impossible to do anything interesting with any ISO-2022-* encodings, so I suppose that's a lost cause |
| 21:24 | <Hixie> | k |
| 21:24 | <Philip`> | (unless I'm wrong) |
| 21:24 | <Hixie> | that's more or less the conclusion i drew too |
| 21:24 | <Hixie> | i was playing with comments to hide some of the bytes, but yeah, even that wouldn't hide 0x1B. |
| 22:34 | <gsnedders> | Oh well, time to sleep, I think. See some of you tomorrow. |
| 22:35 | <takkaria> | ~ |
| 22:35 | <gsnedders> | takkaria: a tilde? :\ |
| 22:35 | <takkaria> | it's a wave |
| 22:36 | <gsnedders> | Oh, OK |